Change the Mini Normal limit from 12 to 13.

[Zachrulez]

The main problem is people seem to want to mod as large of a game as possible.

Setups with less than 12 players in the normal que are rare. I even saw a post not that long ago made under the assumption that all normals HAVE to be 12 players. It might be worth emphasizing that mini normals can have any number of players up to 12. (Or whatever the new limit may be.)

[Zachrulez]

Also it might be worth mentioning that the last normal I modded was 2:2:8 and the last normal I played was a 2:10. So I actually haven't seen 3:9 in a while.

[Zachrulez]

The main problem is people seem to want to mod as large of a game as possible.

Setups with less than 12 players in the normal que are rare. I even saw a post not that long ago made under the assumption that all normals HAVE to be 12 players. It might be worth emphasizing that mini normals can have any number of players up to 12. (Or whatever the new limit may be.)

This is stated several times on the site, but rarely followed...

I know, and I'm aware of it, but it seems that there's a perception that all mini normals have to be 12 players.

[Zachrulez]

Further, I wouldn't mind the limit being raised to 13, except for the fact that every normal game crafted past that point would probably be 13 players. If that's going to be what's going to happen, and the que is just going to slow down even more, what's the point?

[Zachrulez]

Further, I wouldn't mind the limit being raised to 13, except for the fact that every normal game crafted past that point would probably be 13 players. If that's going to be what's going to happen, and the que is just going to slow down even more, what's the point?

It's just not going to slow down THAT much - people are acting like we're doubling the size or something. 1 more player is approximately an 8% increase in size...

If it'll create a more balanced 'default' setup and a little more variety in playable setups, I think that's worth it. Hoopla's done some good legwork to show why 3:9 is pretty harsh on Towns.

That 8% increase will account for over 30 more players of waiting for mods near the bottom of the que. 1 more player a game may not seem like much, but I think consideration needs to be taken for the rate at which people sign up for games and how long it actually takes for games to fill. (And how much time has actually passed since the last person who actually inned to the next normal game. Currently the last mini normal in is me from yesterday afternoon and the current normal game has been in sign ups since the 6th.)

[Zachrulez]

30 players out of ~390. Stop misrepresenting things.

Average fill time for Mini Normals has been calculated, it's about a week. Summers always slow down a bit.

It's still a sizable number, and does demonstrate that even a small increase could have a sizable effect. (I would actually expect a larger increase in waiting mods.)

A better counterargument for it would be the idea that said limit will increase the interest in normal games offsetting that, but I'm not confident that will actually happen.

[Zachrulez]

If you're going to do this change though, I would do it for the mini theme que too.

[Zachrulez]

Absolutely.

Oh, and I was wrong, calculated recent average to fill a Mini Normal (by Vi) was 5 days, not a week.

It's probably more than that now. Anyway, if I use the one week figure, I believe (I'm doing this offhand.) that it will translate to an additional month of waiting time for moderators at least. (That will arguably vary based on time of year, as games are filling slower not but faster at other times.)

Keep in mind that even though it's 2-3 games worth of extra players, you also have to work your way through the additional mods as well.

I only bring this up cause I think it took about 4

(EDIT: 5 and a half months)

months to reach the top of the que the last time I inned to mod a normal.

[Zachrulez]

I'm probably not entirely unbiased in this though, as I had been planning a 13 player large game of some kind, which is likely to turn into a mini normal with this change. The idea of waiting that amount of time to mod said game makes bad words come out of my mouth.

[Zachrulez]

I thought about doing 14 with a night start to buck the system... but.

Aha, now we come to the crux of the matter.

I figured we could either leave 13 as an 'overlap' zone, or just grandfather in anybody already in the Large Queues.

Overlap sounds better.

[Zachrulez]

I am in favor. If I had not already nominated hoopla for a scummy I would now. I think we could give a three month period of overlap.

By the way, if this is done, it seems like making mini themes max 13 would be a good idea.

I probably favor having it just overlap. Experience is required to mod a large normal game, so there's no issue with first time mods making a "large normal" game to get around the queue.

[Zachrulez]

I'd be willing to run smaller normal games if there's interest in it.

[Zachrulez]

Also yeah, I do like smaller games. (As I seem to play better the smaller the game is strangely enough.) C9 and variations of it are a game type I like a lot.

Yeah, the smaller games are in the open que, but not frequently enough in the type of setups I like. (I hate Vengeful, never tried lovers.)

It might be worth having a smaller game que (With Fonz's suggestion of it being 9p and under.) and requiring first time mods to mod these simpler setups before they expand into the somewhat more complicated normal games and themes. That might help both the wait time in the normal que and work as a filter for mods that may not be ready for it to begin with.

Of course, what's important is whether or not there'd be interest, mostly from the player side in games of that size.

[Zachrulez]

the effect of having first-time mods limited to the small queue and having veteran mods doing the fuller games would be to bog down the first-time mod's by a startling degree. I don't think there exists much demand for smaller games, personally, but even if there were, I doubt that would outweigh the number of people who sign up for veteran mods 12 and 13 player games rather than do a new mod's 9 person game. The change in size will not adequately address this.

Anyway, C9 is an open variation. It seems to me that the open queue combined with having mods who can run smaller games if they want in the mini-theme queue is perfectly sufficient.

C9 (and it's varients.) don't seem to come up in the open setup as often as games like say.

You might be surprised how many people like playing smaller games and have a hard time finding them outside the newbie que. The only way to know whether there's interest is to try it on a trial basis.

Also I suggest it for first time mods because smaller setups are simplier and they are less likely to make mistakes in setup design. Starting small can go a long way toward expanding to bigger games in the long run.

[Zachrulez]

@ Vi: Town got lucky Day 1 and the vig was smart, I don't really see a problem with the setup. Fast games aren't always a bad thing .

Pretty much my thoughts on it. Scum have a roleblocker and can manage that setup with better play.

Some people might find it too swingy, but that's a matter of preference.

Also less likely doesn't mean impossible, just less likely.

[Zachrulez]

Question: How many times has C9 or Pie E7 actually appeared in the open que?

Or F11 or any similar setup for that matter. (I don't think I've ever seen this outside the newbie que.)

[Zachrulez]

The new C9 is actually a 20 player game.

And I don't really count trendy and subversive as a c9 game... (in that it's different enough that I don't like it as much as C9 or pie E7.)

[Zachrulez]

Keep in mind that when I said mods should have experience before modding mini normals (much like they do for themes) that I said nothing about not allowing first time mods to continue to mod open games.

[Zachrulez]

Not sure how that's a point, as at one point first time mods were forced to mod minis. (And then the open que came to pass giving the mods a choice.)

Theme games require experience, with an open que and another que for smaller, simpler games, why exactly would it not be a good idea to require modding experience for normal games? You say it would screw everything up... but don't give reasons why. (The site's already tightening the noose around the once greater freedom enjoyed by normal mods anyway.)

Zoraster brought up a concern that could be legitimate but unclear, overall interest. So it might be worth running something as a trial for a short time to see what kind of interest or lack of interest there might be. (Given the number of experienced players that play in or replace into newbie games, I'm not sold that there would be a lack of interest.)

[Zachrulez]

I don't understand what you're getting at, Zach. Minis are by far the most popular game-type on the site... shifting the 'new mods' from Mini Normal to Micro Normal Closed (or whatever) isn't likely to help with demand, since this is literally the first time I've seen an outcry for smaller games since I joined the site. It'll help slightly with Thok's Law, but I'm not at all sure that will overcome the increase in complexity and fracturing of demand. How will limits work with Micros? Could you be in 4 Minis and 7 Micros? Etc... like I said, you

can

run smaller games in the Mini Queues right now, they're just uncommon. I think that should tell us something about demand, especially from the mod side. The Open Queue (Zito's recent game aside, sorry dude) seems to handle that "I want to get through as fast as possible" side, and Mini Normal is for those who want to run their own game, within limits.

The requirement thing is just a suggestion. Personally, from a player standpoint, I'd like to see more smaller games, so I'd be happy just having a que for it if it came down to just that.

[Zachrulez]

Though from a mod standpoint, I suspect that there would actually be a lot more people trying to mod large games if the requirements were as easy as the mini normal games.