Mini #1004 - Popularity Mafia (Over)

[Xite91]

Researched and agreed

[Sando]

Nothing he posted was unreasonably large; and I'm not having trouble imagining that, if he didn't address everything, you would then be turning around saying "He's avoiding arguments".

Attacks for not voting and posting walls suggest either that your brain isn't functioning or that you are scrambling to find non-following reasons to justify suspecting the apparent consensus candidates.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth with that one. It's not unusual for scum to try to lay low until forced to post meaningfully and then overcompensating.

You do realise I've posted other reasons why I find Tasky scummy right? You being too lazy to ISO me isn't a lack of brain function on my end. ISO 7 by the way, enjoy.

*shock* You mean that the amount of words people use is a product of personality and not a town/scum litmus test?

*shock* You mean that when I said that not all Wall-O-Texts were a town/scum litmus test, I actually meant it?

I'd think newbscum would be afraid of stepping on toes, especially of experienced and skilled players(like volkan.).

I mis-attributed this to Xite previously when I responded, but I now even more strongly disagree with this statement, especially the brackets bit.

Glad to see you agree with him Xite.

[Max]

Just a thought, and you can ignore this if you like because I am asking purely for personal meta reasons, is it possible that the "feeling" is something akin to the "Vollkan can't be trusted" thing coming from PD and Andrius?

No, it's not that. It's just I can't read you at the moment. I've gone through your posts many times but they give off the feel of an IC. I know there is no such thing as unreadable.
I might be affected by PD and Andrius constantly saying "Don't trust Vollkan" however this may simply be them trying to manipulate the town in advance so you can be lynched later in the game...

[Max]

Thanks for putting words in my mouth with that one. It's not unusual for scum to try to lay low until forced to post meaningfully and then overcompensating.

It's also not unusual for town to do the same. Town will frequently give minimal effort until they can be bothered to make a case against someone. I frequently do the same.

[Sando]

How is that the same?

It's not unusual for scum to try to lay low until forced to post meaningfully

Town will frequently give minimal effort until they can be bothered to make a case against someone.

One is doing it when forced, one is doing when sufficiently bothered. I realise that town, especially on D1 or when posting is lacklustre, will often not bother to post much, then force themselves to make a huge post to make up for it. I don't think that is the case with Xite.

[vollkan]

Thanks for putting words in my mouth with that one. It's not unusual for scum to try to lay low until forced to post meaningfully and then overcompensating.

It's not unusual for anybody, faced with an attack against them or any argument against another player, to post more than average. Something isn't scummy just because scum do it; something is scummy when scum are more likely to do it.

You're weaving this story that makes out that xite was somehow posting an unreasonably low amount and then suddenly bombarded us with an unreasonably large amount. In reality, he's playing just how you'd expect anybody to play in the circumstances. People were arguing against him; it's only natural he'd post more .

*shock* You mean that when I said that not all Wall-O-Texts were a town/scum litmus test, I actually meant it?

I wasn't specifically addressing you there. I basically have a general dislike for a whole heap of boiler-plate scumtells that aren't really scumtells (walls, lurking, self-voting, etc.). Xite's post just nicely reaffirmed my position

That said, I will remind you that you've still failed to provide any explanatino as to why xite's walls are scummy.

The only thing you've provided is that they "feel" like desperation. Which is gut for starters and invalid as a matter of psychology (see my point above - everybody posts more in argument; that mightn't be ideal, but it's completely understandable)

You do realise I've posted other reasons why I find Tasky scummy right? You being too lazy to ISO me isn't a lack of brain function on my end. ISO 7 by the way, enjoy.

You do realise that scumhunting largely involves paying reasonable attention to people's bad reasons, rather than just praising them for decent ones.

Now, about those other reasons:

Saying something is gut then giving a non-gut reason doesn't seem like gut to me.

I can say justifiably that I am the most anti-gut person on site (there was a MD thread a while back on "Theory Schools" where I was basically deemed the poster-child of hating gut).

Tasky's vote for gut reasons was therefore bad from the outset. He acknowledged that though, because he said it was "just" gut, and his subsequent behaviour showed that he wasn't going to follow the gut.

I don't like it in the sense that I think it was unnecessary, but that doesn't make it scummy.

His vote on me is fairly OMGUS. And Tasky, voting someone for attacking you is OMGUS, pointing out that a lot of people doesn't diminish from this. Attacking people for things other than voting you would be avoiding OMGUS.

Speaking of boiler-plate scumtells that aren't really scumtells.

There is NOTHING scummy about voting the person who is voting you.

There is something very scummy about voting the person who is voting you if your reason for voting them is bad.

Tasky justified his vote as follows:

wowowo... if everybody who likes to post wall-o-text was scum, we'd have to lynch almost everybody on MafiaScum...

putting those two things together it looks to me like Sando came here, saw the case against me and Xite and wants to join it... but he doesn't want to look like he is just blindly following the others, so he looks for some (rather poor) excuses to do so...
this looks very much like scum trying to get on a bandwagon...

That's a perfectly legitimate justification. Smearing it as OMGUS is just again employing a lazy label rather than having to actually ask why something is scummy.

Self-voting is blatantly scummy, as previously said.

More boiler-plating

No. It's usually anti-[your faction], but that's only because there are so many people around who have a silly hatred against it.

Refusing to claim and claiming that I'm threatening him, is obviously a complete distortion of what's happening.

Please explain.

The attempt at wagoning Volkan was silly and pointless, and IIoA was silly, and points to a tendency to play according to the wiki. It's the same as attacking Xite as an easy target to appear pro-town. Scum tend to want to do things on D1 that looks so pro-town that everyone thinks they're town. My general rule is that the first person to accuse someone of role-fishing is scum, because it's so obviously anti-town to role-fish, that anyone accusing someone of role-fishing is obviously town (sarcasm there btw). Same applies with things like IIoA,

it's a classic tell so accusing people of it is an easy way to get town-points.

"scum laying low", "walls", "OMGUS", and "self-voting". The irony of the above quote actually has me smirking.

In seriousness, though, the points you make in the above quote are valid ones.

He's trying to portray his attack on Xite as required because he was saying anti-town things and noone was bringing them up, yet Volkan had already brought Xite to heel:

Where did he attempt this portrayal?

It's also not unusual for town to do the same. Town will frequently give minimal effort until they can be bothered to make a case against someone. I frequently do the same.

/agree

One is doing it when forced, one is doing when sufficiently bothered. I realise that town, especially on D1 or when posting is lacklustre, will often not bother to post much, then force themselves to make a huge post to make up for it. I don't think that is the case with Xite.

It comes back to a broader general point: people are basically lazy and are more likely to post when something directly concerns them.

Yes, it would be much easier for town if everybody was super-focussed, but they aren't. It sucks, but that's the reality.

[Max]

Sando, I am playing one game. I do not know how many games Xite is playing but it's probably more. I am focused on only this game, meaning I will definitely return to this to make points as frequently as possible.

Xite, only posts in one game when there is something more pressing than in the others. (I know, I used to play far too many games) Its prioritisation and something that is a null-tell in regards to alignment.

If all of a sudden in one game people wanted to kill me I'd pay so much more attention to games. It's just the way it's meant to work. At the moment Andrius blends in because nobody's attacking him. If I started attacking him he'd post more in his defence (and therefore make more logical errors). Would that be desperation? No it's called playing the game Sando.

This conversation is again digressing into "is it normal for town to do X" therefore a theory discussion rather than something specifically relevant to this game. Sando, the reason for posting more is not important. What somebody says, however, is.

[Sando]

It's not unusual for anybody, faced with an attack against them or any argument against another player, to post more than average. Something isn't scummy just because scum do it; something is scummy when scum are more likely to do it.

You're weaving this story that makes out that xite was somehow posting an unreasonably low amount and then suddenly bombarded us with an unreasonably large amount. In reality, he's playing just how you'd expect anybody to play in the circumstances. People were arguing against him; it's only natural he'd post more.

Scum are actually more likely to do it, you disagree, all we're doing is contradicting each other, it's tiresome. Me weaving the story is this:

Xites wall-o-text seems like scum desperation.

That was my original post, and the only part of the post that pointed to Xite being scummy, the rest merely stated that he was an obvious target, and considering I attacked Tasky for attacking said obvious target, it's pretty obvious I didn't mean scummy when I said obvious. You claiming that I'm 'weaving a story' is a complete fabrication.

I wasn't specifically addressing you there. I basically have a general dislike for a whole heap of boiler-plate scumtells that aren't really scumtells (walls, lurking, self-voting, etc.). Xite's post just nicely reaffirmed my position

That said, I will remind you that you've still failed to provide any explanatino as to why xite's walls are scummy.

Your sarcasm was quite deliberately aimed at me, I don't really care, but I'm also not going to ignore something I disagree with simple because it's not addressed to me specifically. 'Walls' is not a boiler-plate scumtell, I've never been in a game where walls in general were considered a scumtell (I have been in one where NOT posting in wall-posts was a scumtell though). I've also never tried to claim that posting a wall is a scumtell, in fact I've clarified that point many times now. I have provided an explanation, you disagree with it, as I have no real interest in getting Xite lynched right at the moment, I really couldn't give a damn. Not providing an explanation, and not providing an explanation that meets your rather bizarre set of rules are 2 different things.

I can say justifiably that I am the most anti-gut person on site (there was a MD thread a while back on "Theory Schools" where I was basically deemed the poster-child of hating gut).

I can honestly say that I don't care, I won't try to convince you with my gut, but in some instances it will motivate my actions. You can disagree with my methods all you want, but I will never change my play style simply to suit you.

Speaking of boiler-plate scumtells that aren't really scumtells.

There is NOTHING scummy about voting the person who is voting you.

There is something very scummy about voting the person who is voting you if your reason for voting them is bad.

Well for starters he misrepresents what I said about Xite, bad reason 1.
Secondly, he doesn't actually provide reasoning for how my argument is bad, merely states that it is, bad reason 2.
Then he boldly states that scum simply want to get on a bandwagon, with no reasoning as to why I would want to do that as scum, bad reason 3.

Please explain.

I have, stop being lazy:

How did I threaten you? I removed my vote specifically to give you some breathing room to claim. I did not want a quick-hammer to come in, especially as I believe there had been 3 votes on you since the last count, and it would be fairly easy for scum to come along and hammer then claim they didn't realise it was the hammer.

You need to claim because a lot of people find you scummy and have demonstrated this by putting you at L-1. Your arguments have been weak, and I personally know that a claim done correctly could sway my vote. If you continue to be obstinate in this, my vote will return without a claim.

"scum laying low", "walls", "OMGUS", and "self-voting". The irony of the above quote actually has me smirking.

I've never said that only scum lay low, or that only scum post walls, or that either is a scumtell in itself. You yourself have said that OMGUS is scummy, you just don't agree that it was OMGUS. And self-voting is scummy, and it's not an 'easy accusation' to make, he did it, no two ways about it. Other than that, yeah, really ironic...

Where did he attempt this portrayal?

In his ISO 22 when he tried to claim that instead of simply attacking the easy target of Xite, he was asking a legitimate query that town needed to be asked, when it didn't.

Vollkan, after all of this, one thing becomes clear, you hate gut, OMGUS, self-voting, etc. Why are you fixated on my case against Tasky and not others, who have professed only these suspicions of Tasky, when I have actually posted reasons that you actually appear to agree with?

If all of a sudden in one game people wanted to kill me I'd pay so much more attention to games.

Really? We're trying to kill Xite? He's never had more than 1 vote as far as I can see ISOing the mod.

Sando, the reason for posting more is not important. What somebody says, however, is.

I disagree, but I really don't care at the moment, I have no real interest in lynching Xite at the moment, it is something I found scummy and therefore I felt it needed mentioning. Agree, disagree, until I actually think he's scum and needs to be lynched, I don't actually care that much.

Please note, despite you posting a wall of text, I'm not declaring you scummy for doing so Vollkan, and I'm even posting one in reply.

[Xite91]

@Sando, yeah I agreed with him on something that is mafia theory, not this game specifically, why is that important?

@Max, yeah I'm in quite a few games, but considering I have no life right now because medicine/possible surgery and house Wife-type-role gives me a lot of time not to have to do real work (kinda) so I get like 16 hours on this site a day as long as I'm not going out, which is rare lately. I give as much focus as possible to each game, and I actually post in order of the "oldest" last post. That's irrelevant to my play style in this situation.
But the point is, I was called out on a small point at the same time I was noticing a scummy player, add these together, sudden mass amounts of posts.

[Friend]

Huh? You reiterate that xite is avoiding you and agree with a new point about xite, but instead you jump ships, coincidentally to the largest wagon on the vacuous ground of "pressure". +3

The point I agreed with was that xite was too eager and aggressive to be newbscum. Townies avoid people too - it was more a matter of defending myself than saying xite is scummy.

And yes, I usually find tunneling scummy.

[Xite91]

Thing is I'm pretty sure you're not tunneling when you have other suspects and are working on a case for them, but can't get it quite right and therefore don't want to cause even more mass hysteria when people are finally putting a little bet of suspicion on you, the person that I would prefer to be lynched today.

[Friend]

I haven't seen evidence of that - therefore, you're tunneling.

[Xite91]

Thing is I'm pretty sure you're not tunneling when you have other suspects and are working on a case for them,

but can't get it quite right and therefore

don't want to cause even more mass hysteria

when people are finally putting a little bet of suspicion on you,

the person that I would prefer to be lynched today

.

Okay so let me make this clearer
1) I make case on you
2) hysteria is caused by not only this case but two others
3) During this whole thing I get more tells
4) I decide not to go into it because at the moment it's pointless, and the cases aren't enough to push anything.
5) you ask me who I also think is scum
6) I answer
7) you try to convince me to go after them as your case gets picked up by others
8) I keep on you
9) you accuse me of tunneling, which I may be doing a bit of, but I do have other suspects, I just don't suspect them as much as i do you


When I have enough of a case on them that I feel comfortable calling them scum with (aka about 70-80% certain they're scum), I will push after them.
Now you look even scummier. Sorry, friend, I'm staying on you until you're lynched or someone else is without my vote

[VasudeVa]

@Friend: Tunneling is only scummy when the tunneler has a grasping/bad case or if he is being thick-headed about it but this truly depends on the type of player the tunneler is. I think that if Xite was doing a scummy tunnel, he would be a little less eager due to fear of being lynched. His play lacks the newbscum cautiousness that I'm looking for.

---

I'm feeling temporarily tired of the Tasky case(Although he is a fine deadline lynch.) and I want to see where a Friend wagon would take us. Plus the Tasky wagon reeks of scum, possibly 2 of them in here(Right now, I'm thinking its Sando and Friend.). And I do not see anyone(bar me, as of this post) defending him.

I'm not a fan of forced dichotomies (The 'Between me and xite who is scummier') which I see as a possible attempt to get Andrius on his side of the argument, and the back and forth vote hopping to two lynchbaits (Tasky and Xite.). I actually think that Town would just ignore Xite, but the 'between me and xite' post (and maybe the tunneling accusation) makes me think he's fearing the pressure.

Plus he's totally buddying with his username and avatar. /sarcasm

Vote: Friend

---

@Volk: It's my way of saying that future witness testimonies have to account the skill of the player. Right now, the point of it isn't clear, but I'll be using it when we get to the nitty gritty of the neighborizing mechanic.

[Tasky]

ISO on VasudeVa:

0-1:

introduction and jokes - nulltell

2:

Ugh. Tasky.

no explanation here

What the eff is with that vote on a reasonable first post? Succumbing to pressure?

don't understand who you are talking to, don't understand your point

More of Tasky's 'I didn't mean that I meant blabla'.

?

Xite is now cruising at VI territory. See how different his play is from Tasky's. Tasky's play is very defensive, and you can totally see some attempt at manipulation.

could you please point out examples of Xite being VI and me being manipulative?

Xite seems too agressive for newbscum. I'd think newbscum would be afraid of stepping on toes, especially of experienced and skilled players(like volkan.).

why do you assume that Xite is noob?

Xite seems like a newbie who genuinely believes in the stuff he's spewing. Myep.

again, why?

Tasky and NB's argument is not interesting. Both of them not understanding each other (NB's 'let me clarify my stance')

we were talking about the best night-action strategy... I think we understood us in the end

There is certainly some malice in his play.

examples please

Volkan finally gets some Player points. I wasn't convinced at first because of him stating some pretty disagreeable things (#26, for example.) but it looks like he can explain himself and even explain others well.

are you saying Vollkan is town? what correlation/causation do you see in being pro-town and being a good player?

Oh hey, there's me, being cool and awesome with a cool first post and promising a reread... WHICH I TOTALLY DELIVERED

joke... are you trying to earn town cred? it's not as if your post contained much tells

Tasky is a reasonable lynch.

I actually don't see you giving reasons for that in the whole post

I am slighly suspicious of Friend.(Although this might be me being subconciously affected by Xite's ramblings.)

this are the tings you say about friend:
-> "I like Friend's open-mindedness. Not really Townie, but it suggests wisdom which is a benefit for Town if he is one of us."
-> "I don't think Friend is buddying."
-> "Friend's 'It's too soon to be claiming' does not sit well with me at all."
while I agree with the third point, you are drawing conclusions from claims which are not supported by any evidence

I think that if we have a competent scumbag, it'll be Sando.

how can that be a conclusion since you didn't post even one thing about Sando?

I think the last part of the post is just useless, but it's a total null-tell for me...

3:

looking for town cred with an useless post?

4:

Why would you be 'pissed' if Tasky was quickhammered?

this made my scum-dar ring... so you really don't see what's so bad about quickhammering? it deprives town of valuable town to gather information, it denies the lynched the possibility to post, etc.
I think you are smart enough to know that, so that I think this is an absolute fake question so that you look like you are scumhunting

2. Tasky

still no reasons there

Sando vs Tasky was similar to one game of mine where skilled scum(SpyreX) pressured a newbie into slipping up until his lynch. I should have put that there somewhere though. Rereading in depth does that to you.
Vote: Tasky

so you say the Sando vs. me argument reminds you of scum vs. town and you go on to vote me? that's a big contradiction

5:

I'm feeling temporarily tired of the Tasky case(Although he is a fine deadline lynch.)

what made you change your mind?

Plus the Tasky wagon reeks of scum, possibly 2 of them in here(Right now, I'm thinking its Sando and Friend.).

again, no reasons here...

I'm not a fan of forced dichotomies (The 'Between me and xite who is scummier') which I see as a possible attempt to get Andrius on his side of the argument, and the back and forth vote hopping to two lynchbaits (Tasky and Xite.). I actually think that Town would just ignore Xite, but the 'between me and xite' post (and maybe the tunneling accusation) makes me think he's fearing the pressure.

the first post I like

---

I noticed that VasudeVa likes posting absolute statements that everybody should take as true, but almost never posts reasons for that statements...
I don't like that dogmatic approach to mafia...
so I'll

FoS: VasudeVa

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

PS @mod: I'll be

V/LA 15.07 - 31.07

[Seraphim]

Mod: will be V/LA from today until the 24th

Replace me if you wish.

[Andrius]

Ok so I just noticed that Tasky isn't dead. While this isn't a surprise, let me tell you why its important.

A) All the scum are already on the wagon
B) Tasky is scum who isn't going to be hammered by scum
C) Everyone's too lazy/fearful to hammer
D) There really isn't a majority of people willing to see Tasky dead

Discuss the likelyhoods of A and B.

[PranaDevil]

E) Nobody wishes to quick lynch, and discussion is still ongoing, so a lynch now would be a bad thing, and any scum who forced a quick lynch right now would be almost insta-lynched in the next day phase.

[Max]

I don't think it could be described as a quicklynch considering the amount of time he has been at L-1. The only factor that I can foresee making it classed as a quick lynch is the fact that Seraphim has not posted anything and Friend hasn't made his further case that I want to see before I determine if he is scum or not.

I think it's D. Possibly A. I don't see it being B, and as for C it is something townies never seem to be lazy to do is hammer :/

[Sando]

Max, weren't you going to post your thoughts on the last 3 people? Have I missed it?

There is almost certainly scum on the Tasky wagon, regardless of his alignment. Either he's town, in which case there's a high likelihood scum are helping it along, it's pretty rare you get a townperson lynched D1 without any scum on the wagon. Or he's scum, in which case there's a fair bet that there's a scum bussing him, scum aren't going to want to get completely caught off a scum-wagon on D1.

I also think it's a near certainty that there is scum off the Tasky wagon, scum don't want to be all on the same wagon. Simplifying the situation in 4 possible scenarios is pretty foolish at this stage.

There's been a few notices of pretty extreme VLAs.

[LlamaFluff]

seraphim has stumbled up to the front of the room. He looks fairly ill and leaves to see the nurse, he comes back looking a whole lot better, and different.

ReaperCharlie replaces seraphim

[Andrius]

Just shoot me down, Prana, shoot me down.

@ Max: Either D or A doesn't help us out at all.

[quote-"Sando"]
There is almost certainly scum on the Tasky wagon, regardless of his alignment. Either he's town, in which case there's a high likelihood scum are helping it along, it's pretty rare you get a townperson lynched D1 without any scum on the wagon. Or he's scum, in which case there's a fair bet that there's a scum bussing him, scum aren't going to want to get completely caught off a scum-wagon on D1.

I also think it's a near certainty that there is scum off the Tasky wagon, scum don't want to be all on the same wagon. Simplifying the situation in 4 possible scenarios is pretty foolish at this stage.
[/quote]
Isn't this true of like, every game?

'Ello to ReaperCharlie.

[Andrius]

/Fail with the quote tags.

[ReaperCharlie]

Hi guys, give me a longer-than-usual amount of time to catch up; I've fallen behind in a couple of my games which have higher priority than this game for the moment because I've been putting them off for longer... but I couldn't say no to this setup!!! the flavor makes it sound like one big drama party! ;DDD

[Max]

@ Max: Either D or A doesn't help us out at all.

Well A helps us. As does D if a majority of players don't want tasky lynched then we move on and find someone we do.

Sando, I haven't but I'll try and filter it in over the next few posts tomorrow.