Mini #1004 - Popularity Mafia (Over)

[Friend]

Sando vs Tasky was similar to one game of mine where skilled scum(SpyreX) pressured a newbie into slipping up until his lynch.

If you're using this situation as an example, the newbie in that game was town. Yet here, you think Tasky's scum. Do you think Sando is bussing? Do you think if Tasky flips town, Sando is scum? I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at.

Friend

1. Seraphim: He really hasn't made enough posts to get a read on him. I don't feel he's totally scummy (yet) but I dislike his lurking.

2. Right now, I'd lynch Tasky. I didn't like his "let's start a random wagon" philosophy and his posts still give me a scummy gut feeling. Xite...I'm a little torn on. His case is weak, but I can see it coming from a misguided townie as well.

3. Most town..hm. I'd say vollkan, Max, and Andrius. It's only been 7 pages, though - those rankings'll probably change.

What, "let's start a wagon" is a scum tell? I thought that bandwagons were a good way to start every game (hint: they are). Now don't think I'm being patronising or anything but read the first 5 pages in most games and they start bandwagons for the most redundant reasons. That isn't scummy.

Okay. So you are following to town, and providing no cases on your own. How about you make a case on 1 player that isn't Xite91 and Tasky. You can use the presumption that one of them is scum if you wish. I just want to see you make a case on someone. Thank you

As to the first part, I sort of understand. The whole thing just felt off to me.
As for the second part, I'll do it but I don't really understand the point of the exercise. Why make a case I don't necessarily believe in?

3. friend, some things that I really dislike

xite, you didn't even respond to my last post. You saying I'm ignoring or shrugging off your case is a blatant lie.

Also:
UNVOTE: xite91
VOTE: Tasky

I'll put more pressure on. I think VV has a point about xite's overeagerness.

I don't like this post too... first he goes to push the xite case further, then he unvotes him... then he agrees again with the case on xite...

I agreed with VV's defense of xite, saying that he was a little too overagressive for noobscum.

this seems like he wants to "casually" vote me, hoping someone will hammer soon...
especially after having stated this:

UNVOTE: Tasky
VOTE: xite91

This is too soon for claiming. While I still think Tasky is the scummiest, we need to talk more. Sando seems a little too aggressive.

this looks like the classic show "don't lynch yet, talk more" to earn town-cred... it's not bad by itself, but in conjunction with the previously quoted I really don't like it
in general, I have to say I liked the case against friend... after Sando, he is my second scum-pick atm

I have to go now, I'll submit since I don't want to get hammered before I get to post something...
if I come back and am still alive, I'll try to post more stuff you can work on once I'm dead...

What do you mean by classic "don't lynch yet show" to earn town-cred? Where has this happened in games of yours?

What about the case on me did you like?

By the way, I really don't like Tasky's heavy AtE in these posts - all the talk about "stuff to work on once I'm dead" just feels desperate.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Tasky (6) - PranaDevil, vollkan, Andrius, Sando, Friend, VasudeVa
Xite91 (1) - NicoBolas
sando (1) - Tasky
Andrius (1) - seraphim
Friend (1) - Xite91

Not Voting (2) - Max, TheLonging

[Max]

As for the second part, I'll do it but I don't really understand the point of the exercise. Why make a case I don't necessarily believe in?

You currently have 2 suspects. Right? Both of which are firmly held in most people's minds as being scummy. There are almost definitely 3 Scum. If you believe that say Tasky is scum, then you know based on how people have reacted with him who you think is scum with him.

So presuming Tasky Scum I would doubt Sando Scum. I don't know what alignment is no more than anyone else, but based on interactions I would doubt that Sando is scum if Tasky is.

[Tasky]

What do you mean by classic "don't lynch yet show" to earn town-cred? Where has this happened in games of yours?

let me explain... I am actually talking about face-to-face-mafia experience but this point should still hold...
often in mafia you get to a situation where a good part of the town wants to quickly lynch somebody...
and almost always someone (often myself) says that lynching so early is bad and that town should discuss more
now, common wisdom says, that quicklynching is bad for town... therefore one would assume that one who says that is town, but of course scum could fake it, so of course we get a WIFOM-situation... => telling not to quicklynch is actually a null-tell, but people like to do it anyways even as scum since it feels townish even if it isn't...
the problem with you saying it was that you didn't mean it... in fact you got on the wagon to put more pressure on, knowing exactly that I'd have to claim since I'd be ad L-1... but you had said just a couple of posts earlier that it was to soon for claiming... so I think you said
"This is too soon for claiming. While I still think Tasky is the scummiest, we need to talk more." in order to get some town-cred. then, as soon some time passed, you did the opposite of what you said, proving that you didn't say it because you meant it, but because you were faking it...

What about the case on me did you like?

the buddying argument...

By the way, I really don't like Tasky's heavy AtE in these posts - all the talk about "stuff to work on once I'm dead" just feels desperate.

I just see that I am at L-1 and that a lot of people think I am scum for reasons I partly don't understand, partly can't fight against (the vollkan-wagon affair), so I might as well stop defending myself and try to post my opinion straight, so at least town has more info to work with later...

[Friend]

If you say telling not to quicklynch is a nulltell, then why do you think my motivation is scum-based? I got back on the wagon because I felt enough time had passed and you were acting just as scummy. My thoughts on xite were also somewhat swayed by VV.

What, specifically, about the buddying argument do you like? Do you realize that I've shown how all of xite's examples were extremely poor?

[Xite91]

If you say telling not to quicklynch is a nulltell, then why do you think my motivation is scum-based? I got back on the wagon because I felt enough time had passed and you were acting just as scummy. My thoughts on xite were also somewhat swayed by VV.

What, specifically, about the buddying argument do you like?

Do you realize that I've shown how all of xite's examples were extremely poor?

Again, I did dispute this and you ignored it, twice.
Then you didn't show anything, you just said they were multiple times. Just sayin.

[Andrius]

Andrius
Nothing particularly outstanding for me either way. Doesn't appear to be scum, but I'm always apprehensive of people who (like him) blend in...

I'll take what I can get, I suppose.

Answer 3: Have you played with Vollkan before? Do you feel that he is playing in the same way he does as scum?

Played with him in a recent Mini-Normal (along with Andrius). As I've only played a single game with him I also don't think it's fair to judge him based solely on that one game, as I don't have enough of a viewpoint to know how he plays regularly as mafia or town to say either way. In the game I played with Vollkan he was scum, but he was one of the most pro-town players in the game. The other pro-town player was also scum incidentally. That game however was plagued with stupidity, tunnelling, and about half of the players just outright disappearing. So while myself, Vollkan and Andrius have played in the same game previously, it only really leads to us knowing of each other, as opposed to being able to spot any tells from each other.

Yeah, same answer here. We three played in a mini normal. I played my worst D1 ever, then got semi-town-confirmed D3. I know I'm watching vollkan since that game; he was a town-read of mine, but I was surprised to see him live to D4, which was very scummy. So yes, I'll be watching him. PD's leaning town IMO.

@Andy: It's the 'not opt to' and the nonrandom point + some of my previous experience with you. Some of your points have to be explained before people understand what you meant by it rather than having it clear with one post.

I'm still a bit unclear as to what you mean.

[Friend]

Xite, besides me, who do you think is scum?

[Xite91]

Max, Nico, and Vollkan stick out to me
Also, leaning a bit with vv too
but these are mostly-gut reads (as in they are all based off of gut and very little case to them, not I have gut reads on 3 and a case on 1)

[Friend]

How come you find the time to tunnel incessantly on me, but yet can't make a case on anyone else in the game?

P.S. Max I'm getting to your requested case too. Just give me a little time, it's too late tonigHt.

[Xite91]

It's not that I can't make a case on them, there's just not enough to do so
you asked me who I think, not who based on a case.
I am thoroughly convinced that you are scum, partially because it was interesting that you asked me who was scum specifically to say, ohai make a case on them then (AKA averting attention)

[Friend]

I'm not averting attention, I'm trying to stop your useless and misguided tunneling.

And 10 pages isn't enough for you to make a case on anyone else? Seriously?

[Andrius]

Ok, here's my 2 cents.
One of Xite/Friend is probably scum (if Tasky isn't).

Popularity List:
1. Max
2. PranaDevil
3. Scott Brosius
4. NicolBolas
5. vollkan
6. Sando
7. Seraphim
8. Friend
9. TheLonging
10. Andrius
11. Tasky
12. Xite91

Here it is again.

[Andrius]

And I miss Seraphim. He should totally play with us. Even if he keeps the RVS vote all day.

[Friend]

Andrius, between me and xite, who is scummier?

[Andrius]

Between you two... probably Xite. Especially if Tasky flips scum. There's no way he would be putting pressure on you with him at L-1, if you're his scumbuddy.
But I will Neighborize Xite, so we'll see where that takes us.

[Xite91]

No, I'm not tunneling because I am looking at other people, you're just top on my priority list.
And i like this next post where you're attempting something that seems like a straw-man like omgus... it's interesting

[Friend]

No, I'm not tunneling because I am looking at other people, you're just top on my priority list.

No, you are tunneling because you've said yourself that you can't make a case on anyone except me even though it's been 10 pages.

And i like this next post where you're attempting something that seems like a straw-man like omgus... it's interesting

What? Explain this cause I don't understand. You just threw out a whole bunch of buzzwords and then used "interesting" which means nothing. Interesting how? Scummy?

[Xite91]

You're already scummy to me, but it was interesting that if you were to really attack me, it would probably be seen as OMGUS, so you ask andrius to do it for you, which i think is a form of strawman.
I said that I can make cases on them, but they're small points that have mostly been discussed. If you want them I can make them, but prolly not till mornin (i'm havin a sleepover pow wow thing )

[vollkan]

So who's your +2 on now?

Sorry. I had in my head that "Xite is the one with the twee avatar". I will now remember that you are powerpuff girls and not kitten.

he basically joins the discussion and wants to jump on the attack you guys carry on me and xite, whether that attack is valid or not is another story... since he doesn't want to look like he is just sheeping, he picks two very weak reasons (that question I asked and xites wall-o-text) just to join the bandwagon...
my problem is not with the attack on me/xite, it is how he blatantly does it for the wrong reasons, namely because everybody else does...
and even that could be ok, I mean, one can get convinced by other's arguments, but he didn't even admit this, but instead looked for reasons to join the wagon and look like he was actively scum-hunting...

Thanks. In that case, your case is legitimate.

@Sando: Coming back to the post by you that Tasky identified:

Not much, but he's taking the opportunity to throw out attacks without actually calling someone scummy, FOS/Voting them etc.

What's your point? You present this like it is some serious trangression when all it basically amounts to is that he is accusing people without voting, which is extremely common and, even if it wasn't, I can't see why it is scummy.

Xites wall-o-text seems like scum desperation.

This time you are basically taking a pet hate of many people, walls of text

+- Player Points are related to my above explanation. Note that these DO NOT have any indication to alignment, just my interpretation on players on how well their future QT witness testimonies can be trusted(ala, Phoenix Wright

This doesn't make any sense to me. Are you saying that you are going to trust people based on how skilled they are as a player? If so, that's an exceptionally bad way to play. An experienced player is just as likely to be scum as a new player.

xite, you didn't even respond to my last post. You saying I'm ignoring or shrugging off your case is a blatant lie.

Also:
UNVOTE: xite91
VOTE: Tasky

I'll put more pressure on. I think VV has a point about xite's overeagerness.

Huh? You reiterate that xite is avoiding you and agree with a new point about xite, but instead you jump ships, coincidentally to the largest wagon on the vacuous ground of "pressure". +3

I don't like this post, he is basically saying that he doesn't want to read the exchange between me and Sando thoroughly since it's to big in size... I think a townie who is interested in scum-hunting would want to read it, reread it, and read it again if necessary...

That wasn't why I asked you to summarise it. Your posts on point were in argument with Sando. The rest of us weren't your target audience. Having a snapshot summary just helped put the rest in context.

I'm not entirely sure I like him. I'm going to wait a bit, I read posts and think they're good. But then I have this underlying feeling that he is scum. I need to think about this one.

EDIT: Having thought about it since yesterday I think he's town. Though I can't be too certain yet.

Just a thought, and you can ignore this if you like because I am asking purely for personal meta reasons, is it possible that the "feeling" is something akin to the "Vollkan can't be trusted" thing coming from PD and Andrius?

How come you find the time to tunnel incessantly on me, but yet can't make a case on anyone else in the game?

What do you mean by tunnelling? Do you think it is scummy?

[PranaDevil]

Just a thought, and you can ignore this if you like because I am asking purely for personal meta reasons, is it possible that the "feeling" is something akin to the "Vollkan can't be trusted" thing coming from PD and Andrius?

Thinking about what I've said, it may well be coming across like that. What I actually am getting at is that you're a strong player, and so if you're town all is well, but I don't want to get into the consideration that someone playing 100% pro-town (seemingly) is completely pro-town.

But then, that can of course count to anyone who's a relatively good player.

[Sando]

What's your point? You present this like it is some serious trangression when all it basically amounts to is that he is accusing people without voting, which is extremely common and, even if it wasn't, I can't see why it is scummy.

You really don't see the scumminess in making accusations without backing them up with actual commitment? Townpersons commit to things, scum commit to whatever is most beneficial to them, and try to appear townie while doing it.

This time you are basically taking a pet hate of many people, walls of text

This time you are basically ignoring my response to this:

I said his wall-o-text looked scummy, I did not say that every wall-o-text is scummy

and

I said it looked like scum-desperation, he starts getting a lot of attention, and he suddenly starts bringing up these major wall-o-texts.

[Xite91]

Oh, sando, if you'll read games I'm in you can see that I always post walls for cases, because I feel it's considerate to show what your case is on and then make the case. It wasn't panicked or desperate at all. I simply scum hunting and Friend is my best choice as to who's scum.

Honestly, I didn't feel I was getting a lot of pressure from the quick day end thing because I was just planning things out in my head and things made sense to me, but yes day is more important now that I've thought about it in every scenario.

[vollkan]

You really don't see the scumminess in making accusations without backing them up with actual commitment? Townpersons commit to things, scum commit to whatever is most beneficial to them, and try to appear townie while doing it.

Casting a vote, let alone an FoS, is in no way a "commitment". It means nothing other than "you are the person I most suspect". The reason WHY somebody suspects somebody else is far more important and meaningful than the fact that they have a vote on somebody.

Don't get me wrong, if somebody is consistently pushing a wagon and yet, come late in a day, refuses to vote them, that is scummy (if only because of the inconsistency between words and action), but this early in a day, I honestly couldn't care less if nobody was voting anybody.

I said his wall-o-text looked scummy, I did not say that every wall-o-text is scummy

I said it looked like scum-desperation, he starts getting a lot of attention, and he suddenly starts bringing up these major wall-o-texts.

Wow, those two quotes make your argument extremely compelling.
"It's not always scummy, but it is here" - mind explaining why?
It "looked" like scum-desperation. As above, this has absolutely no reasoning to support it. He starts getting a lot of attention, and a lot of material to address, of course he's going to start posting more. Nothing he posted was unreasonably large; and I'm not having trouble imagining that, if he didn't address everything, you would then be turning around saying "He's avoiding arguments".

Attacks for not voting and posting walls suggest either that your brain isn't functioning or that you are scrambling to find non-following reasons to justify suspecting the apparent consensus candidates.

Oh, sando, if you'll read games I'm in you can see that I always post walls for cases, because I feel it's considerate to show what your case is on and then make the case. It wasn't panicked or desperate at all. I simply scum hunting and Friend is my best choice as to who's scum.

*shock* You mean that the amount of words people use is a product of personality and not a town/scum litmus test?

[Xite91]

@Vollkan, in context, probably, but considering I have no remembrance of what a litmus test is I'm not saying yes for sure *researching*