Mini #1004 - Popularity Mafia (Over)

[VasudeVa]

I have a history with Andrius. If I get lynched D1, he's scum. COUNT ON IT.

Will catch up after lunch. (I'm on a weird timezone so.).

[Andrius]

I have a history with Andrius. If I get lynched D1, he's scum. COUNT ON IT.

Will catch up after lunch. (I'm on a weird timezone so.).

I... yeah, that is true. Can't deny it. But I did win the first one, so.

And after lunch you should totally reply to my PM. *hinthint* /subtle

[/off-topic]

So Tasky was at L-1. How long do we have to harry him for a claim? Oh, Friend unvoted.

[Xite91]

Sando seems a little too aggressive.

Aggressiveness is not bad, but I think Sando is being a little overagressive. Scum is usually more aggressive than town.

+2

Aggression is NOT a scumtell and accusing Sando of being "overaggressive" is just throwing around an empty smear label that discredits him despite not actually relating to any flaw in his argument. Aggression is entirely a playstyle thing.

First, I admitted that my original case was weak, but it's getting stronger, at least in my mind.

Why is it getting stronger?

I dare you to point out the posts where I say this.
In fact it actually goes like this;

Sando seems a little too aggressive.

Aggressiveness is not bad, but I think Sando is being a little overagressive. Scum is usually more aggressive than town.

So who's your +2 on now?

Also, Hey guys sorry about this but I just spent about 12 hours at the hospital, and then about 9 hours sleeping because of medicine and lack of sleep. Now I'm on fun medication that makes me super loopy so I'm going to try to play the game but I have to warn everyone how bad that could be. That being said, I lack all energy to scumhunt at the moment, so I'll save you guys the trouble unless I feel it necessary to point out something.

[Tasky]

To clarify the extent of your case against xite, could you please list your non-gut points briefly? Reason being is that, if it is true he only singled out a weak argument to attack, that is a valid scumtell; but the sheer size of your exchange with him means that each individual point isn't clear.

xite? you mean Sando...

ok... the main point was this post
he basically joins the discussion and wants to jump on the attack you guys carry on me and xite, whether that attack is valid or not is another story... since he doesn't want to look like he is just sheeping, he picks two very weak reasons (that question I asked and xites wall-o-text) just to join the bandwagon...
my problem is not with the attack on me/xite, it is how he blatantly does it for the wrong reasons, namely because everybody else does...
and even that could be ok, I mean, one can get convinced by other's arguments, but he didn't even admit this, but instead looked for reasons to join the wagon and look like he was actively scum-hunting...
my major posts are the second part of this one and this one

[Friend]

Tasky I don't know if anyone told you this, but Sando's reference to xite's textwall didn't mean all textwalls were scummy. He just meant that specific wall.

Your points are not very well thought out, in my eyes. It seems more like you picked the person who made the weakest case on you and went after them for wagoning. Wagoning is not necessarily a scumtell.

[VasudeVa]

OMG REREAD MEGAPOST

Page 1:

Andrius soft claiming his PR for discussion. Nice. And it fits with his 'I like strategizing' meta.
I don't like how Prana auto-FOSed it when he is in a theme game with a mechanic. Townie trigger fingers? We'll see.
I like Friend's open-mindedness. Not really Townie, but it suggests wisdom which is a benefit for Town if he is one of us.

Page 2:

volk #26: Or, if scum were competent/confident, they can mislead/plant suspicion. Either way, I think scum would take advantage of the mechanic too.
Ugh. Tasky.

I like the Popularity MC. Would've suggested it if I were in this game earlier.

Page 3:

Nicol making excuses at his first post makes me think he'll be making lots of them, especially at his QT interpretations.

Ewww @ Tasky's Selfvote.

What the eff is with that vote on a reasonable first post? Succumbing to pressure?

Page 4:

Xite's posts (specifically #82) feel like he's posting without thinking.

Page 5:

More of Tasky's 'I didn't mean that I meant blabla'. He does have difficulty expressing himself.

Okay, Friend screams alt right about now. Are you? More importantly, did you get that name from 20th Century Boys? <3.

Hmmm. Max's #116. My initial reaction is 'what a cocky SOB.' But I do know of some of his games when I was archive lurking way back when. At any rate, his post is intelligent and I do agree with it.

Xite is now cruising at VI territory. See how different his play is from Tasky's. Tasky's play is very defensive, and you can totally see some attempt at manipulation. Xite seems too agressive for newbscum. I'd think newbscum would be afraid of stepping on toes, especially of experienced and skilled players(like volkan.).

Page 6:

Okay, I have no idea what Andy means with popularity being non-random. My 'flavor' role makes sense with my popularity rank.

Xite seems like a newbie who genuinely believes in the stuff he's spewing. Myep.

I don't think Friend is buddying. I don't know why Prana agrees with that.

Page 7:

Tasky and NB's argument is not interesting. Both of them not understanding each other (NB's 'let me clarify my stance'), Tasky being...tasky. I don't get an innocent newb vibe from Tasky at all. There is certainly some malice in his play.

Volkan finally gets some Player points. I wasn't convinced at first because of him stating some pretty disagreeable things (#26, for example.) but it looks like he can explain himself and even explain others well.

Page 8:

Friend's 'It's too soon to be claiming' does not sit well with me at all.

Oh hey, there's me, being cool and awesome with a cool first post and promising a reread... WHICH I TOTALLY DELIVERED

----
Conclusion:
Tasky is a reasonable lynch.

I am against lynching Xite.

I am slighly suspicious of Friend.(Although this might be me being subconciously affected by Xite's ramblings.)

I think that if we have a competent scumbag, it'll be Sando.

-----

I'd like people to pay special attention to how people 'phrase' things, how good they are at expressing themselves etc.:

- Because in a QT heavy game, there will be alot of....witness testimonies if you will. Unlike normal games wherein posts #'s are easily available for direct proof, here we will rely on 'Andy said blablabla therefore I think he's <alignment>'. The main difference is we are not underoath, so scum can easily..change their interpretations, town can misinterpret etc. So some attention to the PLAYER is needed.

---

+- Player Points are related to my above explanation. Note that these DO NOT have any indication to alignment, just my interpretation on players on how well their future QT witness testimonies can be trusted(ala, Phoenix Wright. )

+ Points for volkan for proving himself to be a good interpreter.
+ Points for Max for being an experienced player. I'd think his interpretations of QTs will be good because of his experience.
+ Points for Friend as an impressionable openminded player.

- Points for Andy because he seems to not be able to properly express himself in 1 post evidenced by people continously asking him 'Wait what?'. Sorry Andy~
- Points for Prana's itchy trigger fingers.
- Points for Xite for posting without thinking.
- Points for Tasky for being unable to use words properly and being...awkward in his explanations.

[Friend]

Hey Vasude, is the slight suspicion towards me based only upon the "it's too soon for claiming" quote? Why does that quote sit poorly with you?

And no, not an alt, just a brother with an account and lots of games at epicmafia. People keep asking me though...guess I'll take it as a compliment. And no, I don't know what 20th century boys is, sorry

[Xite91]

Wait, uhm, player points? That doesn't seem to have to do with much, IMO, but we'll see.
And I am thinking a lot before I post. Overthinking? Maybe, but I'm convinced I get a scum read from friend.

[VasudeVa]

It's something I quickly thought up because of the whole 'Personal' QT thing. I do think it'll be kinda useless, but I'm putting it out there anyway. It's an idea I thought up of and I don't like wasting ideas (even useless ones xD.).

[Andrius]

Page 6:
Okay, I have no idea what Andy means with popularity being non-random. My 'flavor' role makes sense with my popularity rank.

No, I'm pretty sure I was arguing that popularity is non-random, as seen by our roles.

- Points for Andy because he seems to not be able to properly express himself in 1 post evidenced by people continously asking him 'Wait what?'. Sorry Andy~

Bah. Tell me which one and I can try harder. :/

Conclusion:
Tasky is a reasonable lynch.

So would you vote on a Tasky lynch?

[Friend]

xite, you didn't even respond to my last post. You saying I'm ignoring or shrugging off your case is a blatant lie.

Also:
UNVOTE: xite91
VOTE: Tasky

I'll put more pressure on. I think VV has a point about xite's overeagerness.

[Andrius]

Let me go make an impromptu votecount; I'd be upset if you accidentially hammered him.

[Andrius]

Tasky (5) - PranaDevil, vollkan, Andrius, Sando, Friend

Updated.
Wow I have bad math skills. :/

[Xite91]

xite, you didn't even respond to my last post. You saying I'm ignoring or shrugging off your case is a blatant lie.

Also:
UNVOTE: xite91
VOTE: Tasky

I'll put more pressure on. I think VV has a point about xite's overeagerness.

Uhm, considering that your last post was to VV and something about an alt?
Or did you mean a different post? Not sure which one you're talking about anyways.

[Friend]

Okay cool, I didn't want an accidental hammer either.

And xite, the one before that.

[Xite91]

That as to VV and Vollkan i think?
Do you mean the one about me reading you in ISO? I thought I responded to this, first considering I have ISO'd you a few times to figure you out a bit more, and 2 I have no idea where it is, just point out the post? Makes things easier on everyone. Also, that was your defense is a little more solid.

[Friend]

Read again. I responded to your quotes one-by-one, showing how each wasn't buddying.

Also, that was your defense is a little more solid.

I assume this is some sort of typo - what were you trying to say here?

[Xite91]

oh was is supposed to be way

[Xite91]

so you're talking about this in response to post 129

LOL

Quote-by-quote:

1. RVS comment
2. He was the only one posting in-thread at the time
3. He volunteered to claim first
4. ??? That's not buddying
5. Agreeing with people...whoa
6. See above
7. vollkan was, in my mind, acting very pro-town. That's the only one that I guess could be buddying, but even that is not a scumtell.

No AtE (show it to me) and no buddying. Get your facts straight.

then I responded with post

Uhm, I just showed you how it's AtE
considering that you're agreeing with everyone and all

1) yeah, but with the next two, you should see my point
2) Seraphim and I did too
3) I don't recall, but that makes some sense
you were throwing his name out a lot though, makes me suspicious
4) said that, then said that it could lead up to it
5) AtE (agreeing with people like you have been seems like it to me)
6) ^
7) How isn't it?

pretty sure I have my facts straight

also, on 1 I said it was in RVS in the first place, and that it didn't seem like buddying until 2 and 3
4 I said it wasn't buddying but that it looked like a first attempt to
5 was AtE because people tend to like you more when you agree with everything they say
7 did you ever answer this?

Another shrugged off answer was all that was to me, this time just by a post-by-post

[Sando]

I think that if we have a competent scumbag, it'll be Sando.

Pretty sure this is your only mention of me, why am I a 'competant scumbag'? I assume you think I'm at least partially scummy, why? For reference, in every game I've been in as scum, win or loss, I've always been lynched, except one and that was when I was in a hydra

I'm prepared to take Vasude out of my scumlist for today at least, I won't say why now, I'm sure it'll come up later, but he's town for me right now.

Xite seems too agressive for newbscum. I'd think newbscum would be afraid of stepping on toes, especially of experienced and skilled players(like volkan.).

I disagree with the second part, partially agree with the first part. I don't think newbscum would be all that aware of who the experienced players are. First part, I don't think he's been aggressive as you're making out.

[Tasky]

since you are going to lynch me anyway, let me say some things for you to review later once I'm dead...
first thing, I want to apologize for that move with bandwagoning vollkan... I wanted it to be an experiment as a new scum-hunting method... basically, since I know that I'm town, it's easier for me to analyze attacks on my... analyzing attacks on others is more difficult, since you don't know their alignment... I will not do it again, experiment failed...
second thing... you wanted me to claim? since I am at L-1 I think I have no other choice...
I am The Foreign Exchange Student - Vanilla Student

now some comments:

1. lynch Sando d2, I already explained why, a lot of times

2. vollkan, just a note

To clarify the extent of your case against xite, could you please list your non-gut points briefly? Reason being is that, if it is true he only singled out a weak argument to attack, that is a valid scumtell; but the sheer size of your exchange with him means that each individual point isn't clear.

I don't like this post, he is basically saying that he doesn't want to read the exchange between me and Sando thoroughly since it's to big in size... I think a townie who is interested in scum-hunting would want to read it, reread it, and read it again if necessary...

3. friend, some things that I really dislike

xite, you didn't even respond to my last post. You saying I'm ignoring or shrugging off your case is a blatant lie.

Also:
UNVOTE: xite91
VOTE: Tasky

I'll put more pressure on. I think VV has a point about xite's overeagerness.

I don't like this post too... first he goes to push the xite case further, then he unvotes him... then he agrees again with the case on xite...
this seems like he wants to "casually" vote me, hoping someone will hammer soon...
especially after having stated this:

UNVOTE: Tasky
VOTE: xite91

This is too soon for claiming. While I still think Tasky is the scummiest, we need to talk more. Sando seems a little too aggressive.

this looks like the classic show "don't lynch yet, talk more" to earn town-cred... it's not bad by itself, but in conjunction with the previously quoted I really don't like it
in general, I have to say I liked the case against friend... after Sando, he is my second scum-pick atm

I have to go now, I'll submit since I don't want to get hammered before I get to post something...
if I come back and am still alive, I'll try to post more stuff you can work on once I'm dead...

[Max]

PranaDevil

- Do you feel that The Player one above you on the ranking list is scum?

Not 100% sure thus far, I agree that it seems strange that he would ask everyone else for their opinions before he gives his, and somewhat accept that, if he's town, he wants to see others views, but it's also possible he's mafia and wants to get a general consensus to gather information to work out what he wants to say.

- If you had to choose now who would you lynch?

Still Tasky, my vote is on him after all.

- Who do you think is most town at this time?

Vollkan looks pro-town as anything, but I do know from experience that looking pro-town and being pro-town are seperate things. Especially where Vollkan is concerned

Answer 1: Non-committal, fair enough I've not made many posts in the game so far. Please can you answer this question again .
Answer 2: Fair Enough
Answer 3: Have you played with Vollkan before? Do you feel that he is playing in the same way he does as scum?

Friend

1. Seraphim: He really hasn't made enough posts to get a read on him. I don't feel he's totally scummy (yet) but I dislike his lurking.

2. Right now, I'd lynch Tasky. I didn't like his "let's start a random wagon" philosophy and his posts still give me a scummy gut feeling. Xite...I'm a little torn on. His case is weak, but I can see it coming from a misguided townie as well.

3. Most town..hm. I'd say vollkan, Max, and Andrius. It's only been 7 pages, though - those rankings'll probably change.

What, "let's start a wagon" is a scum tell? I thought that bandwagons were a good way to start every game (hint: they are). Now don't think I'm being patronising or anything but read the first 5 pages in most games and they start bandwagons for the most redundant reasons. That isn't scummy.

Okay. So you are following to town, and providing no cases on your own. How about you make a case on 1 player that isn't Xite91 and Tasky. You can use the presumption that one of them is scum if you wish. I just want to see you make a case on someone. Thank you

NicolBolas

@Xite- I saw the same thing that friend did. What i see in the bolded parts is friend not getting your case against friend, then you are now using that against friend. I do not like this.

1) The person above me is Scott Brosius. I can't form a stance on him. I dont see him posting at all.

Mod, can i request a prod on SB?

2) I would lynch xite. I feel that his case on friend is useless, and when attacked for it, he seems to be panicking a little. Pulls out crap reasoning, really.

3) I feel that Andrius and vollkan is town. I have a good gut read on Andrius. I cannot imagine him as scum. As for vollkan, his posts has been quite protown. On my scum-o-meter, i would say that they both fall on three. (1 is supertown and 9 is superscummy)
(end preview edit)

@Xite part, good. Correct, evident looking at somebody's posting, that is hard to fake however it is already established the Xite is scummy. I'm not sure if someone already confronted him about that part of the quote.

Crap reasoning is something that only scum are capable of right?

Then I dislike this:

Tasky and Sando's arugement,
Tasky in general,
Xite's weak case on friend

What about just asking him to read 10 pages. It isn't hard. Or read after page 6 or 7 when people stop the mechanics convo? What about friends lack of a case on both Xite91 and Tasky? This is you trying to inflict your own opinions on someone else. You might as well be JDodge and say:
"X, Y and Z are scum, re-read my posts then agree with me, m'kay ."

VasudeVa

+ Points for Max for being an experienced player. I'd think his interpretations of QTs will be good because of his experience.

Here's an example I remembered of how to use QTs. I used my QT with Snakenstein to determine he was scum. Of course I was a manipulative biatch in that game. And it was a lovers game so is different but you have to be willing to lie about your opinions to get your readings

Game

Hmmm. Max's #116. My initial reaction is 'what a cocky SOB.' But I do know of some of his games when I was archive lurking way back when. At any rate, his post is intelligent and I do agree with it.

Nice to meet you too petal. Though I still want you to answer my questions.

Conclusion:
I am slighly suspicious of Friend.(Although this might be me being subconciously affected by Xite's ramblings.)

I think that if we have a competent scumbag, it'll be Sando.

Third (I snipped the first two) point concerns me slightly. Maybe the fact he seems incapable of attacking players is a reason to find him scummy? Umm... yeah, maybe that. The last point is of great interest to me and I do want you to show some back-up of that view. Especially considering that you didn't mention him in your analysis.

Question:
Why is Sando scum? (Please refrain from using Tasky's arguments)

Andrius

Nothing particularly outstanding for me either way. Doesn't appear to be scum, but I'm always apprehensive of people who (like him) blend in...

Seraphim

- Eh, is he still in this game?

Vollkan

I'm not entirely sure I like him. I'm going to wait a bit, I read posts and think they're good. But then I have this underlying feeling that he is scum. I need to think about this one.

EDIT: Having thought about it since yesterday I think he's town. Though I can't be too certain yet.

Tasky

I don't like this post, he is basically saying that he doesn't want to read the exchange between me and Sando thoroughly since it's to big in size... I think a townie who is interested in scum-hunting would want to read it, reread it, and read it again if necessary...

No, it is towns prerogative to determine what is relevant and what becomes so heated it isn't. Because you and sando appeared to become emotionally involved it reduced your logical power. You are more likely to make mistakes and null-cases into a scum-tell. I skimmed it. I didn't feel it was either way an argument wort pursuing maybe later in the game it is. But as far as I can tell... it isn't important now.

Also, shouldn't a townie be willing to reiterate their points against a player? A nice summary every-so-often can be good. Quotes included of course.

Xite, Sando and TheLonging I'll post my thoughts on monday (Some time after 1PM BST).

[PranaDevil]

Answer 1: Non-committal, fair enough I've not made many posts in the game so far. Please can you answer this question again .

Answer really hasn't changed much. So no real reason to re-answer the question.

Answer 3: Have you played with Vollkan before? Do you feel that he is playing in the same way he does as scum?

Played with him in a recent Mini-Normal (along with Andrius). As I've only played a single game with him I also don't think it's fair to judge him based solely on that one game, as I don't have enough of a viewpoint to know how he plays regularly as mafia or town to say either way. In the game I played with Vollkan he was scum, but he was one of the most pro-town players in the game. The other pro-town player was also scum incidentally. That game however was plagued with stupidity, tunnelling, and about half of the players just outright disappearing. So while myself, Vollkan and Andrius have played in the same game previously, it only really leads to us knowing of each other, as opposed to being able to spot any tells from each other.

Also, shouldn't a townie be willing to reiterate their points against a player? A nice summary every-so-often can be good. Quotes included of course.

Depends on the situation at hand, if the point is staring you in the face (as in, you've restated it a couple of times in various ways, or you have only just reposted it above the comment) then perhaps not.

Also, it depends on whether the person has real life issues preventing them from being able to go back through the thread and pick things apart thoroughly to show exactly what you're getting at, or to type a massive post out restating the points. (For instance, I've only just finished helping my sister move house, so for the past week I wasn't likely to be going into too much depth about anything, whether I had reason to or not).

However, in general I do feel that at least attempting to make the point known is something pro-town, if after just a small exchange someone isn't willing to even make a proper case against someone, then it's anti-town at best because you're not so much explaining your reasons for your statements, as allowing people to become confused and unsure if you refuse to explain it.

[VasudeVa]

@Andy: It's the 'not opt to' and the nonrandom point + some of my previous experience with you. Some of your points have to be explained before people understand what you meant by it rather than having it clear with one post.

Why would you be 'pissed' if Tasky was quickhammered?

@Max: Why petal? (No, really.)

1. PranaDevil is above me. He isn't exactly townie, but not (yet) scum either. His Andrius FoS and his 'IGMEOY Volkan' are some of his current actions I'm keeping my eye on, which could be either a protown 'keep an eye on this dude' warning or a scummy 'I'll plant suspicion' move. Other than that null. It depends on his actions from here-on which will make me decide which is which.
2. Tasky
3. A matchup between you and volkan. I am keeping my eye on Volkan though, through Prana's suggestion.

Sando is more on gut right now. When I was posting my conclusions, I thought of the game and it's players as a whole and Sando came to mind. He seemed skilled and his aggressiveness was off putting. Sando vs Tasky was similar to one game of mine where skilled scum(SpyreX) pressured a newbie into slipping up until his lynch. I should have put that there somewhere though. Rereading in depth does that to you.

Why does that 'greatly interest' you?

Vote: Tasky

@Prana: Why are you not able to spot tells from each other even if you had previous experience with each other?

[PranaDevil]

Anyone who claims to know scum tells from someone after

one

game with someone else is either lying, or had a really poor scum player against them. Throw in the fact that, as I've just pointed out, the game was full of either flaking players (the game was a draw because the replacements never arrived) or were useless in general outside of pretty much two of the scum players. It means that nobody can really have any tells from anyone in that game.