Mini #1004 - Popularity Mafia (Over)

[Tasky]

'Nice try though' was me sarcastically implying that it was in no way a nice try, and was in fact a terrible argument. How am I pointing out a trap? Do you know what a 'trap' is? Pointing out a fallacy in someones argument isn't scummy by the way, pretty sure it's a basic tenant of scumhunting in fact.

as I said, just gut...

Xite was an easy target because he made a blatantly rediculous suggestion. It's like picking on the newbie that suggest a no-lynch D1, it's an easy way to appear pro-town. It's so obviously a terrible idea, trying to make something of it like that is just trying to make yourself look pro-town in an easy way.

but he really believed it, and it was nonsense... not pointing that out would have been anti-town...
I didn't even vote him for that, just pointed out that his idea was ridiculously wrong...

I said it looked like scum-desperation, he starts getting a lot of attention, and he suddenly starts bringing up these major wall-o-texts.

and what should he have done? post nothing?
I still don't understand how posting wall-o-texts can be a scummtell

I'll stay on my opinion that you needed a reason to jump on the attack on Xite and still seem like you were proposing new ideas... the only thing you could come up with was that wall-o-text argument, which seems like a real null-argument to me... after all, everybody has his own posting style

[NicolBolas]

@tasky- I didnt even see that contradiction about claiming, hah. I was just typing whatever came to my mind as i read thru the thread. Now, I guess i should clarify my stance- What i meant was that I think that people shouldnt claim whoever they befriended right away, but when pressed, they have to have reasonings. The second one is not a contradiction i believe. If scum know who is gonna befriend who during the night, They can manipulate that information to their advantage. If people exercised freedom of choice, scum does not know who people would befriend so it would lead to less information for scum, thereby freedom of choice is better. I do not see where that is a contradiction. Your reasoning about Sera seems all right. I just found it odd that you just left the vote there, and not even change your mind about things. Now, you are moving things along. It seems okay to me.

I'm not sure what to make out of the interaction between Sando and Tasky. On one hand, it looks like Sando is truly attacking Tasky, and Tasky is OMGUSsing, But on the other hand, Tasky has a good point about Sando' weak reasoning. hmm.

I still think that scum can be found in Xite.

[Tasky]

@tasky- I didnt even see that contradiction about claiming, hah. I was just typing whatever came to my mind as i read thru the thread. Now, I guess i should clarify my stance- What i meant was that I think that people shouldnt claim whoever they befriended right away, but when pressed, they have to have reasonings. The second one is not a contradiction i believe.

If scum know who is gonna befriend who during the night, They can manipulate that information to their advantage. If people exercised freedom of choice, scum does not know who people would befriend so it would lead to less information for scum

, thereby freedom of choice is better. I do not see where that is a contradiction. Your reasoning about Sera seems all right. I just found it odd that you just left the vote there, and not even change your mind about things. Now, you are moving things along. It seems okay to me.

if someone freely choses there are 2 possibilities:
1. he chooses scum, in this case scum will know
2. he chooses non-scum, in this case it won't matter since he won't get a scumread anyway...

therefore there is no advantage in choosing freely when it comes to information scum gets...
and since town has no information, and scum already has a lot, adding something to both sides will favor town greatly...
(to make this point clear, imagine a 5:0 situation... if you add 2 on bot sides, 7:2 is much better for the right side)
so actually I think the neighborizing should be as transparent and clear as possible...

I'm not sure what to make out of the interaction between Sando and Tasky. On one hand, it looks like Sando is truly attacking Tasky, and Tasky is OMGUSsing, But on the other hand, Tasky has a good point about Sando' weak reasoning. hmm.

since there are currently 4 votes on me (if I counted correctly), it's quite likely that at least one of them is scum... so OMGUS doesn't quite work here...

[NicolBolas]

@Tasky, on the contrary. neighbors targeted on N1 will take effect on N2. So if scum knows who the targets are on N1, they can plan kills on that knowledge, on N1. If people have freedom to choose, Scum will not have that knowledge until D3, so that would help the town, i think. Am i incorrect in my thinking here?

[Tasky]

@Tasky, on the contrary. neighbors targeted on N1 will take effect on N2. So if scum knows who the targets are on N1, they can plan kills on that knowledge, on N1. If people have freedom to choose, Scum will not have that knowledge until D3, so that would help the town, i think. Am i incorrect in my thinking here?

ah... now I finally understand your point... but if I understood this right, you get to talk to you N1 target immediately in N1...

Each passing period you may attempt talk to another student. If you are more popular then they are, you will start up a conversation with them.

from the rules... in my eyes this means the conversation starts immediately...

[NicolBolas]

Any created quicktopic will be available for use starting the next passing period (night phase) and lasts through the remainder of the game. They are only able to be used during passing periods. Talking in class will result in a trip to the prinicpal's office.

Mod said this. So you're incorrect with that.

[Xite91]

Woo-hoo another post-by-post

Xites wall-o-text seems like scum desperation.

Prana makes an excellent point about scum being unable to simply not neighbourise someone, further reinforces max's points.

First, other than the wagon on one and the extreme suspicion on the other, how are we obvious targets? Second, yes, I'm stating a case, I won't post the quotes I need for such case? WTF?

Still not getting that point with the neighborizing...

@xite- I'm unsure on how to approach you. Your case on friend is full of crap. Do you have any stronger evidence that friend is scummy other than what you pointed out?

The first sentence, I will show you why you feel that way in about 10 seconds
The second, yes, that's what I'm about to show you

Okay, guys to me it wasn't a ridiculous question because of the way neighborizing works. If I planned it correctly, everyone should have 4 people to talk to individually by night 3. Then cross-referencing can be used the rest of the game. I understand that days are SUPER important to the town, but this was just a suggestion. k? k!

I'm not sure what to make out of the interaction between Sando and Tasky. On one hand, it looks like Sando is truly attacking Tasky, and Tasky is OMGUSsing, But on the other hand, Tasky has a good point about Sando' weak reasoning. hmm.

I still think that scum can be found in Xite.

First, easy targets much?
Second, why can scum be found in me?

@Tasky, on the contrary. neighbors targeted on N1 will take effect on N2. So if scum knows who the targets are on N1, they can plan kills on that knowledge, on N1. If people have freedom to choose, Scum will not have that knowledge until D3, so that would help the town, i think. Am i incorrect in my thinking here?

Slightly, considering if planned correctly, everyone can have 4 neighbors by night 3... just sayin

Other than that, I don't really get your case on me.

It would be poor modding to tie popularity levels to PR-ness, IMO (as in the top 3 most popular students are PRs, the bottom 3 are scum, whatever).

I called vollkan pro-town because that was the feeling I got from him. Nothing more, nothing less.

I asked you the question because you hadn't mentioned Tasky up to that point, just voted him for the sake of "helping push him."

Do you find me asking for the popularity claim scummy?

I don't see why it would be.

I said "arguably." There's a difference.

How would PRs be based on popularity? That makes breaking this game way too easy.

I still don't get the case by the way. Calling someone pro-town is not a scumtell, what I did was not rolefishing, and other than that...I don't think you have anything.

I agree with Max.

Xite,

I got my order of things mixed up then. Sue me.

I wanted to know your opinion, that's the point.

LOL

Quote-by-quote:

1. RVS comment
2. He was the only one posting in-thread at the time
3. He volunteered to claim first
4. ??? That's not buddying
5. Agreeing with people...whoa
6. See above
7. vollkan was, in my mind, acting very pro-town. That's the only one that I guess could be buddying, but even that is not a scumtell.

No AtE (show it to me) and no buddying. Get your facts straight.

Xite's case is laughably poor

, but I'm not entirely sold on him being scum yet.

Those bolded times? That's all the times he responded to my case by saying, oh you're wrong

but in your terms mostly

, or your case is null or such and such. Dismissing it as nothing... Just seems like an interesting reaction to me, and it seems to make the rest of you think the same way

[Max]

/in Popularity. .

Few Questions:
Is popularity a part of your role or measured by an in game factor? Do you know how popular you are? Is it revealed at death?
Can you directly quote quicktopics?

Your level of popularity is based on your role and players know how popular they are, ie X/12.
Popularity is not revealed on death, just character name.
No direct quoting of QTs, or timestamps, are allowed. Summarizing is fine.

This implies (to me) that we have permanent Popularity.

@ Max: You do know that we're creating neighborhoods, not masons, right? You've called them mason QTs, so I'm just making sure you know.

Masons

are

neighbours. This is a mafia theory discussion not suitable for the game. But whenever I say mason realise I don't mean confirmed masons.

Also dudes. Get used to sando, he gets going after a while, you'll warm to him .

Serious note, can we move away from the "OMG this person is scum for expressing two opinions" hunting. A good scum-hunter must be capable of finding both town tells and scum tells of the other players. They must be able to see the positives and negatives of each of the arguments on strategy.

--- From this point I will actually consider voting people ---

Nobody has done anything "bad" or "good" in my eyes. It's all "How should we organise this game?" that is both bad for the town and inadequate information to look into. I support Vollkan using his points system and look forward to a PBPA that uses that scoring system.

Xite, get a grip. Your case

is

weak. It can be forgiven, however, as Friend shouldn't shrug it off just because it's a weak case. It isn't well formulated and in the first few pages I don't feel that friend should have said that he thinks people are town. Though that's not enough to lynch someone.

Questions to All

- Do you feel that The Player

one

above you on the ranking list is scum?
- If you had to choose now who would you lynch?
- Who do you think is most town at this time?

I would like evidence and from these 11 posts I will determine who I feel is town and scum.

[NicolBolas]

@Xite- I saw the same thing that friend did. What i see in the bolded parts is friend not getting your case against friend, then you are now using that against friend. I do not like this. Friend is not dismissing your case as nothing IMO, it is your case that is weak. I am not sure what you mean by "easy targets much?". What i saw was Tasky and Sando attacking each other. It just struck me oddly. About the neighborzing thing, my concern is not in night three, but night two. Hypothetically, if scum knew the plan for neighborzing, they would be able to eliminate both of an single person's neighbors, rendering that person worthless in discussing what happened during the night. Also, a preset plan prevents the town to scumhunt during the night.

(preview edit)
@Max- i'll reply to your questions

1) The person above me is Scott Brosius. I can't form a stance on him. I dont see him posting at all.

Mod, can i request a prod on SB?

2) I would lynch xite. I feel that his case on friend is useless, and when attacked for it, he seems to be panicking a little. Pulls out crap reasoning, really.

3) I feel that Andrius and vollkan is town. I have a good gut read on Andrius. I cannot imagine him as scum. As for vollkan, his posts has been quite protown. On my scum-o-meter, i would say that they both fall on three. (1 is supertown and 9 is superscummy)
(end preview edit)

[Tasky]

- Do you feel that The Player

one

above you on the ranking list is scum?
- If you had to choose now who would you lynch?
- Who do you think is most town at this time?

I would like evidence and from these 11 posts I will determine who I feel is town and scum.

you mean 12 posts, right? you are not seriously expecting that we all answer and you don't?
please answer your own questions (since you don't have one above you in popularity, I'd suggest you answer question one on Xite who is nr.12)

1. Andrius: he looks somewhat relaxed, is quite active... all in all I'd give him a 0.01 out of the interval [-1; 1]
2. Sando, for the reasons I already stated
3. I somehow feel NicolBolas is quite pro-town (since I already mentioned Andrius)... just a feeling though, maybe 0.01 too

[Tasky]

Any created quicktopic will be available for use starting the next passing period (night phase) and lasts through the remainder of the game. They are only able to be used during passing periods. Talking in class will result in a trip to the prinicpal's office.

Mod said this. So you're incorrect with that.

ok... I missed that post...
still I'd like a confirmation from the mod on how

exactly

those neighborizings work...

[Max]

please answer your own questions (since you don't have one above you in popularity, I'd suggest you answer question one on Xite who is nr.12)

Well, I know my own alignment. And I will be giving my opinions based solely on peoples responses to these questions. That will include Xite.

[Friend]

- Do you feel that The Player one above you on the ranking list is scum?
- If you had to choose now who would you lynch?
- Who do you think is most town at this time?

1. Seraphim: He really hasn't made enough posts to get a read on him. I don't feel he's totally scummy (yet) but I dislike his lurking.

2. Right now, I'd lynch Tasky. I didn't like his "let's start a random wagon" philosophy and his posts still give me a scummy gut feeling. Xite...I'm a little torn on. His case is weak, but I can see it coming from a misguided townie as well.

3. Most town..hm. I'd say vollkan, Max, and Andrius. It's only been 7 pages, though - those rankings'll probably change.

[NicolBolas]

@max, i think i want to see you answer your own question too. You should be able to form an opinion by now, even without your questions' answers. If you give your opinion now, and after, I think it would help us see more in what you are seeing out of these answers.

[Friend]

Nicol, the only problem with that is Max is using those questions to help him scumhunt. Let's say Max is town. He'll give his honest opinions and then scum will probably say something along those lines because they know that's what Max would want to hear. Answering his own questions ruins the whole point.

[NicolBolas]

@friend- Ah, i see. Disregard my question then.

[Tasky]

Nicol, the only problem with that is Max is using those questions to help him scumhunt. Let's say Max is town. He'll give his honest opinions and then scum will probably say something along those lines because they know that's what Max would want to hear. Answering his own questions ruins the whole point.

yeah... but you are making the assumption that he is town... that is still unproven and it isn't more likely that he is town just because he says so...

please answer your own questions (since you don't have one above you in popularity, I'd suggest you answer question one on Xite who is nr.12)

Well, I know my own alignment.

And I will be giving my opinions based solely on peoples responses to these questions. That will include Xite.

but I don't... and I'd like to have 11 other answers, not 10... so please answer those questions too

@friend- Ah, i see. Disregard my question then.

so you trust Max so much that you hand over the whole scum-hunting-business to him?

[NicolBolas]

@Tasky, No. I decided that what friend said is true, so i'm letting max wait until everybody else posted before demanding an answer from him. I except an answer eventually, but in the interest of preserving Max's intentions, I'm letting him be last. hmm?

[LlamaFluff]

Mod, can i request a prod on SB?

Scott Brosius' last post was only 48 hours ago. If he does not post in another 24 hours he will be prodded.

still I'd like a confirmation from the mod on how

exactly

those neighborizings work...

Each player has the ability to target another player. If they target a lower ranked player in popularity, a QT between the two players is formed. If they are targeted by a higher ranked player in popularity, a QT between the two players is formed. If they target a higher rank, or are targeted by a lower rank, nothing will happen. Any formed QT may be utilized during all passing periods (nights).

[Andrius]

@Andrius
1) on reread, he was the first one to mention a mass claim
all you did was soft claim your popularity

My bad.

Masons are neighbours. This is a mafia theory discussion not suitable for the game. But whenever I say mason realise I don't mean confirmed masons.

I see Masons and instantly infer they're alignment-confirmed. Neighbors aren't AC, Masons are. /my experience I just wanted to clear that up.

Questions to All

- Do you feel that The Player one above you on the ranking list is scum?
- If you had to choose now who would you lynch?
- Who do you think is most town at this time?

TheLonging is above me. I don't have a particular town/scum read on him, but he still hasn't finished his read-through analysis post which is questionable.
If I had to choose now, Tasky. He's my scummiest read of Xite/Friend/Tasky. And no one else has committed near as many errors (or posts).
The most town? PranaDevil's looking town, and vollkan as well, though I'm keeping an eye on him- with just cause.

[PranaDevil]

- Do you feel that The Player one above you on the ranking list is scum?

Not 100% sure thus far, I agree that it seems strange that he would ask everyone else for their opinions before he gives his, and somewhat accept that, if he's town, he wants to see others views, but it's also possible he's mafia and wants to get a general consensus to gather information to work out what he wants to say.

- If you had to choose now who would you lynch?

Still Tasky, my vote is on him after all.

- Who do you think is most town at this time?

Vollkan looks pro-town as anything, but I do know from experience that looking pro-town and being pro-town are seperate things. Especially where Vollkan is concerned.

[Andrius]

Vollkan looks pro-town as anything, but I do know from experience that looking pro-town and being pro-town are seperate things. Especially where Vollkan is concerned.

Yeah really. >_>

Vote: Tasky

Pointless to call him my #1 target and not vote.

[Max]

Eh, wasn't my response earlier that I'd give thoughts on all players which is equal to more info than anyone else has been asked to give. In that I will probably/almost definitely compare the scummiest and least scummy.

[Sando]

Also dudes. Get used to sando, he gets going after a while, you'll warm to him .

Hi Max My non-abrassive game was just utter fail, so I stopped trying, back to my good old self

as I said, just gut...

What? Your gut, my gut?

but he really believed it, and it was nonsense... not pointing that out would have been anti-town...
I didn't even vote him for that, just pointed out that his idea was ridiculously wrong...

Yeah I know you didn't vote him, it's part of my point. You're continuing to insist that it was scummy, yet you didn't feel the need to vote him... This further reinforces that you were simply pointing it out for no real reason other than to appear townie.

Unvote

Pretty sure Andrius put you at L-1, Trasky needs to claim. Vote goes back on if the next Trasky post isn't a claim.

Still not getting that point with the neighborizing...

His point is that since we know who is where in the list, there's no excuse for not neighbourising anyone overnight except for kills. This means that the only way to avoid having to talk to people overnight is if their target dies or if they neighbourise another scum, and obviously one scum won't be able to neighbourise a partner. So anyone claiming to have failed a neighbourise on an alive person better have a damn good reason.

This made me lol:

First, other than the wagon on one and the extreme suspicion on the other, how are we obvious targets?

and

First, easy targets much?

So I'm silly for suggesting that you and Trasky are easy targets for being the top 2 suspects, not to mention the reasons for being the top 2 suspects, but you feel the need to attack NicolBolas for bringing up 'easy targets'? Hypocritical much?


- Do you feel that The Player one above you on the ranking list is scum?
- If you had to choose now who would you lynch?
- Who do you think is most town at this time?

1: Don't have much of a read on Volkan, but his points have been reasonably well reasoned, and isn't on my radar at this time as scum.
2: Trasky
3: Me, obviously, anyone not saying this is scum? Probably Max or NicolBolas, Max is controlling conversation at this stage and while I find that townie, I'm also very wary of it. NicolBolas has basically been adding good content, and has been fairly non-scummy, but isn't as contributing as some others.

[Tasky]

Also dudes. Get used to sando, he gets going after a while, you'll warm to him .

Hi Max My non-abrassive game was just utter fail, so I stopped trying, back to my good old self

as I said, just gut...

What? Your gut, my gut?

For me saying "nice try" feels scummy...

but he really believed it, and it was nonsense... not pointing that out would have been anti-town...
I didn't even vote him for that, just pointed out that his idea was ridiculously wrong...

Yeah I know you didn't vote him, it's part of my point. You're continuing to insist that it was scummy, yet you didn't feel the need to vote him... This further reinforces that you were simply pointing it out for no real reason other than to appear townie.

wait... it's you insisting that it was scummy... I pointed out an error in his judgement, I did not attack him for that, I didn't even think he was scum, I just wanted a clarification... you are clearly trying to turn a worthless argument into something by manipulating evidence

Pretty sure Andrius put you at L-1, Trasky needs to claim. Vote goes back on if the next Trasky post isn't a claim.

I am not going to claim just because you threaten me... it would just hurt town...
all I need to claim is that I am town-alligned and that you are scum...


this is to everybody... please examine the discussion between me and Sando carefully... I really don't see how you can miss his obviously scummy behaviour...
he picked one point of attack and insisted on it manipulating all the rest of the discussion around it just to make it fit his idea... that's not a reasonable attack to me...
there should really be more votes on him by now...


PS: my name is Tasky, not Trasky...