Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[totallynotmafia]

Well if scum were still able to submit a NK then mass claiming today would be a terrible idea, seeing as they would get a free pot-shot at the best town power role without having to worry about doctor protects.

Lottery: Stillsuit

[Mighty Orbots]

@totallynotmafia, if the mafia's kill somehow isn't an ability and they do take someone out after a mass claim we'd still have whatever information that power role had access to with no danger of having it lost forever. With a town that's as powered as this one is, even if we lose PR's along the way we should be fine if we're coordinating. Further, as I said earlier, the purpose of power roles isn't to use their cool abilities; it's to help the town win. At this point sharing information that we've already got is probably incredibly valuable when it comes to deciding who's most likely to be scum both right now and for the future; that's what we're supposed to be doing, not keeping certain power roles alive for the sake of keeping power roles alive.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chronopie]

I'm okay with a mass claim.

How through should we be?

as in: Name? Role? Faction? anything else?

[Mighty Orbots]

@chronopie, while you're here, did you get a hammer from BlazezRb (or anyone) and do you still have it?

If we were to claim I'd like role name, faction, abilities used and results. If people have role titles to claim that's fine too; I don't have one.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chronopie]

Nope, I don't have the hammer.

Apophis (Stargate - Go'ald), Egyptian god. Jailkeeper/resurrector (when Egypt's dominant). Missed Twilight D1 (due to hammer placed overnight), missed Twilight D2 due to unexpected, overnight modkill. No provisional placed for twilight, due to gamewide Role-block.

[Chronopie]

^Don't have and never had said hammer.

[Mighty Orbots]

Grrrr, BlazezRb's posts are now even more frustrating. Unless anyone else wants to claim they had (and still have?) the hammer and explain what's happening with the votes I guess it's time to let it go.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

And you know what, it doesn't put him in any more danger really so I'll share more information; the mafia should know that he's not one of them and thus he's already a target tonight if they can kill. Further, no one else currently has access to this particular bit of information. VasudeVa targetted Snow_Bunny last night. He was not the redirector that was targetting her (and I really do think that the redirector should have been redirecting as they know that watching Snow_Bunny was on my list of potential actions) so unless he can target mutiple people during the night VasudeVa almost certain targetted Snow_Bunny with the protection that he's claimed. I strongly suspect that he was redirected to a known, probably town, killing role. I don't know who might have done that redirecting.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Iecerint]

Waitwaitwait. You think there are two redirectors? Like, this universe:

Snowie kills Percy
Mysterious Man 1 redirects Snowie -> Percy
Mysterious Man 2 redirects VV -> Snowie
VV -> ??

That penultimate sentence is throwing me out.

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, unless VasudeVa has some sort of information to give me to let me know otherwise yes, I think there are two redirectors.

I know someone who should have redirected Snow_Bunny to inHimshallibe (and who knew that I might be watching (at their suggestion no less) and so couldn't really afford to target her with some other action). They targetted Snow_Bunny.

I believe that someone else (identity unknown) probably redirected VasudeVa (who claims to have targetted me after I said that I'd seen people target Snow_Bunny) to Snow_Bunny as he's claimed that he targetted me but I saw him targetting Snow_Bunny. Snow_Bunny didn't get targetted by anyone else so he shouldn't have been trying to kill or roleblock her (she's alive and her kill went through) so I think that he almost certainly just hit her with his protection. VasudeVa could confirm that he didn't also target her with something else I suppose.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mina]

Sorry for my drop in activity. The past few days, I've been working eight-hour shifts and getting home late every evening. I'll wait until Monday to decide where to place my vote, because I'd like to reread the thread.

Anyone notice this:

A role cop investigation was concluded on manho after the night phase. The results show that

she

was Paul Atreides.

Paul Atreides is the main character from Dune, and is very male.

Beholder: Is manho's gender a mistake or intentional?

I'm hoping it means manho isn't what he appears to be.

Most likely I copied another player's reveal (in this case SpyreX's) so they were kept identical and replaced the relevant information. Oops.

--------------------

I'll be honest. Right now I feel that the game has stagnated with all the role and set-up discussion. I understand the POV that information is useful in a game this complex (and MO knows another reason I might like a massclaim). And I'm not familiar enough with Mind Screw games to know the viability of mass claim as a strategy. OTOH, I'm afraid we're going to fall into a break-the-setup instead of a scumhunting frame of mind. (It's probably what killed the town in WoT Mafia.)

Seriously. It's telling that the moment one person laid out an actual case (a pretty good case, but one predicated mostly on stuff everyone already knew about CMAR), everyone is mesmerized by it and jumps aboard the wagon without much thought.

Three players whose claims would shed a lot of light on their motivations, however: CryMeARiver, Fate, and Albert B. Rampage. The former two because they're admitting to acting blatantly antitown as a strategy (but both have hinted at enough about their role to make me think they're not pulling everything out of their ass), and ABR because I would lean strong scum on him based on how he's played all game if census taker didn't only makes sense as a town role. (Unless he and Plum are a scumteam, I can't figure out how he'd be lying. And his early question asking people to guess at scumteam numbers is consistent with his claim.)

Katy, I'm pretty sure I know what it is you know about dramonic...and nope, it isn't a Batman reference. According to dramonic, it's far more obvious than that. Your read on totallynotmafia is pretty much the same as mine.

Hold on, now let's see if I can post my conclusions from my Percy reread before I fall asleep. (I have to wake up in four-five hours.)

[Mina]

Mighty Orbots, instead of giving Vasu an excuse in advance for why he targetted Snow_Bunny, you should have flat-out accused him of lying. Come on...make him sweat a little! Hold the investigation result over his head! Hint that you know what he did, then watch to see if the truth slowly dawns on him. Even if you trusted him,

he

didn't have to know that.

For all you know, he might have lied about protecting you (and really tried a role cop, attempted an action that was blocked, empowered SB because they're scumbuddies, did some crazy thing that only makes sense in a Kinetic game, etc.)...and, um, didn't notice you'd claimed to have watched Snow_Bunny because...um...let me indulge my paranoia. You might have got him to slip up!

Sheesh, some people have no thirst for blood.

[Zorblag]

@Mina, we (Papa Zito and I) considered something like that. There's just no reasonable way for the information we have to lead to him being scum though. I could push the less likely scenarios and see if anything falls out but it seems more direct to use the good faith approach here while I've got reasons to. Towns that are willing to work together are much more powerful than ones that tear themselves apart chasing wild geese.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Re-posted from the correct account for isolation purposes:

@Mina, we (Papa Zito and I) considered something like that. There's just no reasonable way for the information we have to lead to him being scum though. I could push the less likely scenarios and see if anything falls out but it seems more direct to use the good faith approach here while I've got reasons to. Towns that are willing to work together are much more powerful than ones that tear themselves apart chasing wild geese.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

Oh yeah, and somehow I keep forgetting to ask this:

@Xite91, do you know why your slot was added to the game? It came in at the start of the day Day One with DTMaster. DTMaster was recruited by Tarhalindur but ortolan wasn't at all forthcoming with how he wound up in the game. Are you able (and willing) to shed any light on that situation?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mina]

Yeah, but...but...my way is more fun!

(In all seriousness, I think people show their true colours under pressure--so if VasudeVa is town, we'd have been even MORE sure of it had he acted totally bewildered in response to your attack.)

I started writing stuff about raj (to summarize: he was my top suspect yesterday and is horribly scummy, except Percy's vote on him makes him somewhat less likely to be scum) and Percy, but screw it. The Percy partnership analysis can wait until Monday.

I'll follow up on my ooba questioning later, but I'll just point out one thing I spotted:

Vote: Albatross because
- The only person not to have given me the N1 worship vote
- Lurking
- Has attacked: CMAR, Iece, ABR, Ort, Manho. I am unsure about Ort but have the rest pegged as town for now.

Okay, this is starting to get silly.

Off the top of my head, YOU'VE attacked three of the five players on that list (CMAR, Iec, ort). Was there something about the

nature

of Albatross's attacks that seemed scummier than your own? Or is it just that you don't like his suspects?

---------

By the way, I've heard a saying that if you try to list all the players in the game from memory, then the ones you can't remember are probably the scum. I've never seen that tell work, but it's a good exercise all the same for the people complaining that they're falling behind. Seriously, take out a piece of paper and try it.

Oh, and almost forgot:

Lottery: Spice

[Tarhalindur]

Given that I support a fullclaim and I've effectively fullclaimed anyways, might as well make everything official:

Original role: The Dark Knight (theoretically aka Batman, but as you can see this is not the case...). At the beginning of the game, I was given a choice between Adam West, Grant Morrison, Frank Miller, and Mark Millar (chosen), fluffed as choosing between parallel versions of myself - you know, in classic comic book fashion. NOTE FOR GAME BALANCE ASSESSMENT: The original PM strongly suggests that my role could have been a different alignment, which suggests that this slot is a wildcard ala Fraction Jackson in MS4.

Current role (received after choosing Mark Millar): Big Daddy (from Kick-Ass), Town (was Modified Lyncher* up until the beginning of Day 3). Abilities: Must bring a user from the replacement list into the game as Hit Girl (alignment mod confirmed, including mod confirmation that DTMaster's win condition also changed at the beginning of D3) before game start (used on DTMaster), Miller (note: wording on the ability suggests that Kinetic thought Big Daddy would be seen as scum by role name analysis), 1-shot bulletproof immunity (depleted N1), 1-shot nightkill (used on SaintKerrigan N1), death trigger (would kill me at the end of N3 except it's blocked by the global roleblock - I'm not sure if a N3 protection would have saved me or not), able to night talk with Hit Girl.

* - Though the term I usually use for the role type is Hitman - see my old Bab5 game, Kinetic certainly remembers it. Target was the Mafia Godfather. Possible outcomes: Win (if Godfather lynched or killed by lyncher team while still alive), become town (if Godfather killed by another player while still alive), lose (if I died before the Godfather did).

[VasudeVa]

That's weird. I did target Orbots because he's the most obvtown out of all the players right about now.

All the no-kills are throwing me off. It's either I'm awesome with my protects, or there is another protective role out there.

Why redirect me to SB?

My Protections are(again): Nikanor N1, Orbots N2. (BTW, was Spy's action thingy still active at that night? I'm not sure if the mod gave me my real target or my 2-player-slots-down-target. PMing mod.)

[VasudeVa]

Okay then, that's what he sent, not my mod-confirmed real target(a guy can dream right?) meaning I have no idea if I was redirected/2 slots down etc.

[ooba]

Okay then, that's what he sent, not my mod-confirmed real target(a guy can dream right?) meaning I have no idea if I was redirected/2 slots down etc.

Be clear. So your predecessor sent

Protect(or whatever it was your ability is called): Nikanor

on N1?

[VasudeVa]

It's Focus. Yes. It says 'Nikator' here but I assume it's Nikanor(duh.).

[ooba]

Day 1, Vote Count 14

The Crumbling Waste

Within the core of Sanctuary the remnants begin their struggle anew...

1 Starbuck ( 1 ) -
2 Faraday ( 0 ) -
3 Albert B. Rampage ( 0 ) -
4 manho ( 0 ) -
5 dramonic ( 0 ) - Ortolan, S_B
6 chronopie ( 0 ) -
7 Fate ( 2 ) -

Elscouta

8 ooba ( 0 ) -
9 Mighty Orbots ( 1 ) -
10 Parama ( 0 ) -
11 Plum ( 0 ) -
12 totallynotmafia ( 0 ) -
13 SaintKerrigan ( 0 ) -
14 Elscouta ( 0 ) -
15 DarkStalker ( 1 ) -
16 Snow_Bunny ( 1 ) - Starbuck
17 Nikanor ( 1 ) -
18 Mina ( 0 ) -
19 SpyreX ( 0 ) -
20 Katy ( 0 ) -
21 Tarhalindur ( 0 ) -
22 Percy ( 0 ) - Percy
23 Albatross ( 0 ) - Iece, DTM, Tar, ooba, manho
24 rajrhcpfreak ( 1 ) -
25 CryMeARiver ( 4 ) - Fate, Plum, SpyreX, totallynotmafia, Nikatar, Chroniepie, raj, Faraday, albatross, SaintKerrigan, CMAR, MO, ABR, Parama
26 Iecerint ( 0 ) -
27 Ortolan ( 15 ) - Dramonic
28 DTMaster ( 0 ) -

Votes Required to Lynch: 15
Not Voting: 3



Lynch Scene Incoming. Night has begun. Twilight Actions are locked out, please start sending Daybreak actions if you have not.

Facts:
1. You are clearly not immune to Delirium (as evidenced from the VC above)
2. SpyreX's Delirium was active in the night (as evidenced from someone getting a correct Rolecop on SK by targeting Plum)
3. You PM'd Nikanor as your focus target
4. (1,2,3) together mean that your actual target was SpyreX
4. "My night action makes me and my target death immune(except by lynch) provided that me and my target worshiped the same pantheon."
5. "Night 1, Els targeted Nikanor(don't know why he targetted him though) and I worshiped the Old Gods"
6. SpyreX died on Night.

Your thoughts?

[Faraday]

^^This is a good question.

I think I prefer TNM to CMAR...i'm not sure if I can read cmar, he's prone to doing really odd things. Didn't he claim godfather in a game where he was town cop or something?

[DarkStalker]

Alot of content on pages 77-78. Here's stuff I promised. I'll read page 79 soon.
Ok I don't think TNM actually understands my case against him so let's try this again

Ani said he wanted Mina gone because he thought she could be cult becuase Ani was suspicious of what limbo was, and And obviously didn't see ABR's census result. You mentioned the option of Mina getting vidged instead

If we do need to get rid of people in limbo then we should have Snow_Bunny kill them.
...
Regardless of whether she is SK I think we can utilise her NK, and

shooting Mina tonight to figure out what is going on with limbo is probably a good way to start.

1. From that last part you obviously did more than just suggest she should be vidged. You advocated it as a way to get info. How would killing her get us more info over letting her live and possibly to tell us about limbo later?

2. I know ani didn't suggest doing it for info but, do you think its more likly vidging her would get more info than starting a wagon on her and seeing what turned up?

Further you stated why offing mina "could" be advantageous to scum.

Umm...Darkstalker, Mina is effectively treestumped so that seems like a massive waste of a lynch to me. What if someone new is placed in limbo every day, do we use the lynch on them each day? Imagine if each one was town that would be disastrous.

Vote: Darkstalker

For coming up with a way to waste our lynch disguised as trying to get rid of a cult. Didn't ABR say that nobody was recruited by cult anyway?

You didn't prove that was why Ani really wanted her gone.

3. Couldn't mafia asking for a vidge on Mina also be a means Mafia could get rid of her advantageously?

You never disproved Ani's idea mina was cult especially since you said killing Mina was a good.

4. Thus you are hypocritical in that you want to go after us for going after mina and yet at the same time you wanted to get rid of mina yourself. Your case is flawed because what's to say you aren't the one who wants to off mina with bad/mafia intentions?

That is my case on you. Please answer the questions I have underlined!

##############

@ooba

Yay I'm begining to doubt ABR since his census is all he's done. It would be nice if he actually gave some in game suspicions you know and try to look into who is what in his census. Wouldn't that be a good thing for him to do? So basically only thing you changed about me is you don't think I'm the GF. What gave you that idea in particular before? Why was I GF in you mind?

Is the only case on albatross that he is lurking? And he has gone after people ooba thinks are town? That's it? He lurks and he disagrees with ooba?

@Faraday & Fate

Why is Albatross town? I want to hear your side of the story and see if its greater than what ooba is trying to push

@Mighty Orbits

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2338759
hmm I thought you wanted a mass claim to break the game with actions. Something I don't think is possible. Instead you seem to want to confirm as many people as possible right now with actions and use a process of elimination combined with forced vidging to get at the remaining mafia amongst the unconfirmed. I loves vidgings and like pie's philosophy on vidges but i remain somewhat hesitant of pie's mass claims in every setup with every mod ideal. What you are preposing though seems like an improvement over pie's mass claiming. That is not such a bad idea, though if a cult really is out there then the confirmed can become the guilty at any time.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2339182
I understand your counter but in the time it takes us eliminate all the mafia over the course of some game days the cult could get a hold on those we have confirmed.

In any case, there's already been a lot of information leaked about different role names and divinities and the like. If they need some information in particular to recruit Im' guessing they've got enough to manage a couple recruits already and would get the rest as the game went on regardless of a mass claim.

If there wasn't a chance of there being cult I think your plan might actually succeed. Should we manage to find the cult leader and eliminate him and his followers only then may become a believer in your plan. If we can find a way eliminate cult leader among the unconfirned first and then i may agree with you. Is there a plan for that? Tar seems to think mass claim may reduce cult numbers anyways so if he has the plan for getting rid of cult first then i may accept the plans

##############

Katy's case on Cmar is pretty darn good. Especially the fourth point as it further shows that CMAR's unkillable claims aren't really helping us. He is not being an agressive scumhunter that is trying to draw a mafia kill, he is instead trying to draw a kill from the town vidge and that is counter productive of helping the town. I am already voting CMAR so i will continue to support his wagon for these reasons

Though there is a chance i may have overlooked something

What strikes me about the CMAR wagon is that nobody voting for him has mentioned the fact that the universal roleblock has probably temporarily disabled his unlynchability and unkillability. If CMAR is town with these powers that he claims, then today may be scum's only opportunity to get rid of a powerful town player.

Of course if CMAR is scum then it's our opportunity to lynch him today, but as I said I'm surprised nobody who has voted him has said this yet.

I think CMAR needs to fullclaim. If his claim doesn't fit with an unlynchable, unkillable townie then we lynch him today. If, however, it makes sense for him to be a townie with those powers then I'd be suspicious of those starting the wagon on him.

@totallynotmafia, CryMeARiver has stated that the immunity to kills ended yesterday (so far as I could tell when trying to get information out of him.) I didn't get the impression that it was because of the universal roleblock or that he'd be getting it back after today. As far as the universal roleblock goes, you now know as much about it as I do. I think that it should stop the mafia kill as I suspect that should come from an ability but I'm not positive. I have taken that into account when I say that I think that a mass claim right now is the way to go.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Did Cmar directly come out and say the Ultimate RoleBlock would disable his skills or that they run out in general after night 2? I don't believe i remember him saying either of these. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Game is long and full of stuff so i could be wrong. As there is a chance the block could disable him then today is best moment to find out what he truly is and act accordingly to whether we think CMAR is scum or CMAR is town. I will continue to vote CMAR to show I think he is scum and to show I want him to full claim so we can finally get to the end of all the "what ifs" and truly solve what he was trying to say today.

[Mighty Orbots]

@DarkStalker, yeah, given that I don't know what tools the mafia and cult have to interfere with actions I wasn't thinking of breaking the game with our actions; they're always going to be unreliable to some degree. I propose using our information as of now to hone in on the mafia over time. My argument is that even if we lose players to the cult over time the information they'd give now should be correct and can be used to make good decisions later even if they'd have given different information after being recruited. Anything we learn later in the game becomes more suspicious as we go. I also really don't think that the cult leader should be in in the core that I'm pretty sure of now (unless it turns out to be VasudeVa given this latest line of confusion that I'm waiting to see a resolution to) so our efforts to find mafia using the current, more reliable information should help with finding the cult leader as well. Assuming only the leader can recruit that should be fine for our purposes at this point.

If we gain more information about the cult then I expect to adapt to the situation but that goes for any information gain really.

Also, I'm kind of inclined to agree with you about Albert B. Rampage. I tried to draw him out a bit today but he's staying clammed up. It's not the sort of play that makes him useful so he gets less of a pass from me at this point than he normally does. I'd like to see him lay devastation to the game thread like I know he's capable of. The fallout from such apocalyptic action can be pretty handy in determining alignments.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh