Newbie 965 (Game Over)

[Nobody Special]

I'm putting this in its own post, as Wraith may not read my Wall-O-quadz, and I

really

want an answer.

@Wraith: If you don't think you have good scumdar, and a no-lynch is a viable option, why didn't you unvote? Is it just becuase of AGar's stats? (Which is reasonable, I think.)

Good question, and I can't recall, in reading Wraith yesterday, that it was ever addressed. So, Wraith.... ?

[quadz08]

I seem to remember it being answered; he said that it was, in fact, because of the statistics AGar posted.

[Wraith]

I seem to remember it being answered; he said that it was, in fact, because of the statistics AGar posted.

This is correct on both accounts.

[DavidParker]

/here for "bah" post

-town "cop"

[Wraith]

Decided I'm going to make a little analysis on quadz while I wait for something to process. This will not be my last post on the subject of my innocence. Most of my issue with quadz is his scummy play on Day 1.

Also, FoS: DavidParker. You seem awful confident...

VERY early FoS. While not as blatant a scumtell as mallow's early BW, it's still an easy scumtell. He also did a crapload of fence-sitting, demonstrated by these posts:

Ah, alright. No, I'm not ready to put a third vote on somebody this early in the day; for now, I'll let mallow and Uite's votes speak for me.

It's just very soon in the day, is all. I feel like we're moving very, very quickly, especially for Day 1. But I've never played a forum-based game before, so I could be totally off base with that assumption.

DP, there's plenty of other people who have "justified" this. That statement holds essentially no bearing; I am merely holding back from hammering this early in the game, before all of our players have even shown up.

Tries to justify his fence-sitting in two ways - newbieness and lack of evidence. I don't buy the former but I can understand the second, considering that was my own reason for "fence-sitting" on Day 1 and am being accused for the same thing even more maliciously.

He starts playing the "give me advice about how not to look scum" card when he was being accused, while also again denying his fence-sitting:

The same reason Uite unvoted; I just think it's unwise to end the day so early.

@those who see me as scummy:
Can I get an explanation for it? I'm honestly confused as to why that vibe is coming off.

Also see some hypocrisy:

That's an immensely difficult question. After reading through the entire game once more, though, I find mallow to be rather eager to lynch, or at least to bandwagon. I personally find bandwagons to be scummy; they give in to the mob mentality, and remove intelligent thought.

Quadz has hopped on every bandwagon yet. I at least scumhunted so much that I practically got them rolling. During Day 1 especially he did a lot of flip-flopping, which I think was an attempt to buddy up with me.

That's all I'm putting up for now. I've got a headache.

[quadz08]

I'm going to defend myself against Wraith's post, and then I will get started on my isos.

You state that you have a concern about me fence-sitting; however, all the quotes you used don't show fencesitting. They show caution. I didn't want to risk lynching someone so early in the day, when we had so little information.

As to the bandwagon bit, I heartily disagree. If I voted for someone, it was because I thought they deserved a vote, and had nothing to do with how many other people were or were not voting for them at the time.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 3.2:

Not Voting (5): silverbullet999, quadz08, Wraith, AGar, Nobody Special

With 5 players alive, it takes 3 votes to lynch.

[quadz08]

I will be doing my isos in the style Agar used. Because I like it.

silver:

Post 1: randomvote
2: answered Uite’s questions
3: told mallow to chill; told Uite to play nice with David
4: said arrogance != scummy
5: describes game speed
6: posted suspicions, as per my question; questioned all players
7: questions mallow and Wraith, responds to DP’s and my recent posts
8: unvote
9: responds to DP and I, votes me, questions mallow and Wraith
10: questions Wraith about apparent contradiction; says he won’t reveal evidence of my scumminess
11: responds to me again; explains his reasoning for not explaining his vote on me
12: off-topic
13: references previous game to NS; explains questioning of Wraith on “extra vote/hammer” question
14: off-topic
15: off-topic
16: says he will explain his reasoning for voting me “since [NS] keeps pushing it”
17: proceeds to explain reasoning
18: asks NS’ opinion on the case
19: tells Wraith he should contribute
20: off-topic
21: wants to hear Beefster’s thoughts
22: questions mallow’s lack of defense; asks why Beefster is hesitating; asks why Wraith is offended; asks for suspects from all
23: answers Wraith
24: asks for more for Uite
25: responds to Wraith
26: again, responds to Wraith
27: EBWOP
28: gives Wraith a cookie
29: questions mallow’s defeatism; questions seeming contradiction from Wraith
30: rescinds confusion on Wraith’s post
31: asks about mallow’s defeatism against
32: same
33: asks players with no votes down for top suspects (says I and beefster; mod had incorrectly posted that I had not voted)
34: states V/LA status
35: says he disagrees with DP’s hammer
36: is angry at DP for hammer
37: says someone should cc DP, if a cc exists
38: off-topic
39: questions AGar’s request for non-specific info
40: questions AGar’s logic, agrees anyway; votes DP
41: explains vote
42: off-topic
43: Answers DP’s questions
44: off-topic
45: unvote; asks for opinion from Thor and NS and time to think
46: asks questions of DP and I
47: off-topic
48: comments on several different posts; posts suspicion list
49: responds to DP; agrees with AGar’s plan
50: asks about NS scum slip
51: says he’s fine with lynch on DP
52: votes NS after pointing out game-to-game hypocrisy
53: confused by DP’s VT flip
54: says to be careful when voting
55: asks everyone to post top 2 suspects, has a plan
56: EBWOP
57: says NS’ ignorance amazes him
58: points out what he’s referring to in previous post
59: makes large post, generally stating that I and Wraith are scummiest, but he didn’t know; also, his plan did not work
60: EBWOP
61: asks for reasons for everyone’s picks
62: like NS’ case
63: likes AGar’s isos; asks Wraith and I for rebuttals; asks for NS’ isos
64: says he won’t comment on recent posts just yet

(I seem to have skipped a post somewhere, just so everyone knows. My bad!)

---

Now, more detailed stuff.

I'm not yet ready to reveal any evidence I have (even if I don't have any), it could be gut for all you know and I will keep you uninformed until otherwise. Right now it seems like you are trying to push suspicion on to me now for answering a question with another question. I feel that it's fitting for me to do this simply because, if I think a person is scum, and keeps doing scummy things, why in the world should I let that person know what the person is doing that is scummy so that they can change their behavior. Unless I feel I have a solid case on you and want you dead, I'd rather keep ya in the dark.

While I understand silver’s reasoning for this post, it is still rather suspect. It is simply all too easy for him to vote a player whose newb-ness could be interpreted as scummy, and then say he didn’t want to reveal why. Withholding information is, in my opinion, anti-town at best, and when it can so easily conceal a scummy motive, it becomes scummy. He only explained his reasoning after some pretty hard pushing from NS. More possible examples of this (from earlier in the same chunk of discussion):

@quadz
Can I get an explanation for it? I'm honestly confused as to why that vibe is coming off.

So basically your saying...

"Hey guys I'm scum, but I'm trying to be town, some of you see me for who I really am and I don't know how. Could you tell me how so I'll stop doing it? Kthx!"

@quadz

Ummm... No. That's not what I'm saying, at all. What I'm saying is "Hey, I'm town, but apparently I'm giving scum signals. What are they, so I know how to defend myself/fix them, so people will get off my back, so we can keep the focus on people who may actually be scum?"


So.. you want to stop acting scummy, so people will stop bothering you (seeing if you are scum) and put the focus on to other people.

Very interesting.

---

3. You want me to explain what has made you scummy because you state yourself that you want to act less scummy. You want people to clear you as town from day 1. You want people to scumhunt others and not you. Your question is a scummy question and if I give you the truthful answer it enables you to learn and try to be more townie. Why the frack would I want scum to act more townie?

(This is like the uber noob who in the first game goes, hey everyone I'm town, Tell me if I am acting scummy so I will stop acting scummy).

This is a somewhat strange post. He explains why all the things I’m doing are scummy, then say “it’s what a newb would do.” That is somewhat conflicting, for one, but a bigger ping on my radar is that even after admitting that it’s a newb-tell, but then proceeds to ignore that fact.

---

-Beefster
(I'm assuming mallow is at L2)
Why the hesitation with the vote?

If anyone decides to quickhammer you'd be helping the town out more or less as it's probably a scrubby scum hoping to lynch a townie.

Are you trying to make it so your the hammer? Are you trying to make it so you can put a vote on him without seeming suspicious?

Ok, so the bold comment is ringing all kinds of bells. His logic makes sense, but… it’s awfully twisted. I just can’t see a situation where a quicklynch is ideal.

---

DP what result did you get, you get a townie or scum... or did you get blocked.

VOTE: DP
(Til he answers)

This just confused me. What in the world would warrant a vote until DP answers? And then, once he does answer, his reasoning for the vote has changed (I think, he’s not terribly clear here):

-DP
So you're voting for someone who you think is a townie?!?!

silverbullet wrote:For the moment, I just find you as a stupid impatient townie

Please note the For the moment.
I hammer'd when I shouldn't have, you're right, I was impatient,


This is probably the worst thing possible if we get to LYLO. If you are a townie cop, you are an incredibly dangerous townie cop.

---

-Nobody
NobodySpecial wrote: I can't believe anything you say at this point. Sorry, that's just how it is. I have a very big thing about lying. In mafia, several ends can be achieved without outright lying. I just find it distasteful.


I don't intend to be a jerk... but isn't that a little hypocritical mr i'm a doc, admin did you make a mistake?
VOTE: nobody special

It is later explained that NS was scum in that game, which silver knew when he posted this. When playing as scum, I would imagine that one wouldn’t always follow their principles, especially about lying. This seems like silver’s trying too hard to find something to build a case on. Overzealous scumhunting, or scum trying to look like he’s scumhunting?

---

Overall, I’m not sure what to think. He has asked a lot of questions, which is helpful to town, but is also conducive to his survival and staying out of the light. He also seems to be trying to pull scumminess out of things that aren’t actually that scummy. That could either be super-scumhunting, or fake scumhunting. He has also been the only player not to be a deciding vote in either lynch so far (meaning he ended the day voting for someone who didn’t get lynched). This could potentially be a ploy to draw attention away from himself.

Whew. Iso #1 done. Only 3 to go!

[Nobody Special]

Thank you, quadz. I like it!

[AGar]

Nice quadz. I like to see your thoughts.

[silverbullet999]

Oh my... alright I have quite a bit to say on...

@Agar: Did you do your request or what not? I didn't want to interfere with that in some way if you haven't.

If you have, expect a post up shortly after.

[AGar]

Oh my... alright I have quite a bit to say on...

@Agar: Did you do your request or what not? I didn't want to interfere with that in some way if you haven't.

If you have, expect a post up shortly after.

You can say what you want, your thoughts won't affect anything. I'm still waiting on Wraith to finish the end of his post like he had said, then I will explain and put my thoughts up.

[Wraith]

Nah I'm finished, go ahead.

[AGar]

Oh. Ok.

So the purpose of my request was because I obviously believed Wraith and quadz to be scumbuddies. I noticed in my iso that they haven't interacted with each other much, which is somewhat strange this late in the game. So the purpose of my request was to see how they would react under the pressure of cross-bussing (assuming that they are scum). A lot of what I draw from this is major speculation, but it provided me with exactly what I thought it would.

I asked the players to provide a case on the other player intentionally knowing that they would be temporarily tunneling on each player should they comply, which is what I wanted. Both of these players have been almost careful not to bring up each other much in conversation, save for a few posts here and there. The point was to see if either would be willing to push a case on the other player and whether or not they would hold back or not.

The result of my request is that both were somewhat reluctant to do so, neither of them pushing a very convincing case on the other player. However, they did have differing levels of aggressiveness. quadz never actually posted a case on Wraith, instead putting forth a defense for himself. Also, his numbers defense cleverly noted that 2 of Wraith's 4 useful posts were "fairly in-depth" as if trying to shed a positive light on him. This was all he had to say about Wraith:

Wraith has played very defensively. He reacted heavily to suspicion and votes, as well as focused pretty heavily on whoever had the most suspicion on them at the time.

Wraith, alternatively, made a full post focused on quadz, but most of the evidence was flawed and weak. He also outs quadz for the same thing he is guilty of, setting a double standard (fencesitting), and then tries to clear him of this. He brings the hopping of bandwagons by quadz after quadz said that bandwagons are inherently scummy, while it is important to note that Wraith's BW was not attended by quadz, and quadz had the opportunity to hammer him. No such opportunity has come up for Wraith on quadz. Quadz would not commit to saying whether or not he felt Wraith was scum. Wraith tried to not-so-blatantly say "Yes, quadz is scum," as if trying to not directly take part in lynching quadz, but saying he will go along with it since that is the general direction of the town.

Both players hemmed and hawed at the beginning of day 2 about the mallowgeno mislynch, which they were both on. Wraith has openly tried to defend quadz (although mired in the middle of a large post that people might not catch) saying that quadz is being wrongly accused. Wraith also added in on D2 that quadz was fencesitting, but it was an afterthought. Also, Wraith kept bringing up the lack of a doctor claim, almost as if he was attempting to hint at his knowledge of something. He kept saying his reasons for not believing DP's cop claim were there was no counter-claim and no doc claim. The only way a doc would claim in the situation was if we were in a Goon/RB setup with both pro-town PRs. Yet Wraith kept pushing the idea that because there was no doctor, there couldn't be a cop, as if he knew something.

I said before (early D3 I believe) that I was under the belief that we were in the mountainous setup (1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker, 7 Townies). That belief coupled with the aforementioned findings leads me to believe that the scumpair is quadz (goon) and Wraith (RB).

I say we lynch Wraith today.

[Nobody Special]

I'm good for Wraith today. I'll start.

Vote: Wraith

Even though I think that quadz reads as mostly town, I think we may see something after Wraith's flip.

I still am suspicious of AGar, though. Could be an excellent bus.

But let's do Wraith today.

[silverbullet999]

You can say what you want, your thoughts won't affect anything. I'm still waiting on Wraith to finish the end of his post like he had said, then I will explain and put my thoughts up.

In that case I'll go the lazy way and simply be fine with a wraith lynch as I agree and have had those suspicions for awhile.

Vote: Wraith

Even though I think that quadz reads as mostly town, I think we may see something after Wraith's flip.
I still am suspicious of AGar, though. Could be an excellent bus.

A few things of note...
Your initial suspicions this day were quadz and wraith.
If wraith flips scum, what will change or what will you see in your opinion?
If not the game is over anyway.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 3.3:

Wraith (2): silverbullet999, Nobody Special

Not Voting (5): quadz08, Wraith, AGar

With 5 players alive, it takes 3 votes to lynch. Wraith is at L-1.

[Nobody Special]

I'll primarily be looking at quadz, but you and AGar won't be off my radar.

Tomorrow will be interesting.

Also, if I die tonight, look closely at quadz, and less so, AGar. (Unless you're scum, in which case, well...)

[silverbullet999]

I basically am bought that quadz is scum and you both are town... unless quadz brings up some amazing isos on either of you

also

Also, if I die tonight, look closely at quadz, and less so, AGar. (Unless you're scum, in which case, well...)

You do realize that saying this sort of gives scumAGar incentive to night kill you...

[Nobody Special]

Sadly, I know. But I'm sort of betting that quadz is it.

Also, we're talking as though lynch is done. I know it likely will be, because AGar is leaning toward Wraith, but it hasn't. Yet.

Speaking of which:

@AGar, why didn't you vote with your post?

@SB: Perhaps we should shut up for the moment.

[silverbullet999]

Uh.. ok! :X

[quadz08]

I would like everyone to know that I am about halfway done with my iso on Wraith, before everyone decides that I'm the auto-lynch for tomorrow. I do believe I made it clear that I would be doing isos on all 4 of you, so... I question AGar's case, and find it rather suspicious that he decided to post that. I would appreciate a pause on the hammer, at least, until I'm finished with my case. Right now, it's definitely leaning towards scum on him (and even if it wasn't, I don't know how much my case would sway anyone).

I just... am having a hard time with how quickly everyone seems to be following AGar's lead, as well. Just something to keep in mind.

[Wraith]

Well, you all have solid cases on me. But that's to be expected, because after DP I've played the scummiest game. I don't know about you all, but I'm gonna go with my gut and lynch the most blatant scum.

Vote: quadz08

[AGar]

Was gonna hammer, but I'm willing to wait on quadz.

@NS - I wasn't sure if the town was in agreement, and didn't want to chance quickhammer by two scummies in waiting.

[AGar]

Also: I will be away tomorrow until probably later tomorrow night.