Mini 964: Another Story - Over!

[Thief]

I want VibeBox to claim next.

[PaltryExcuse]

This is pretty much the territory you have to delve into if you're going to figure out whether or not massclaiming is right.

Why exactly? As I said, I'm not familiar with mass claiming personally.

Your presumed hammer vote had poor reasoning

How? You seem to be, for whatever reason, upset at the fact that my perceived objective was just to wagon for the sake of ending the Day. You're partially correct, I was sure (clearly wrong now) that my top 2 were scum, and could afford a lynch on either, hence why I seesawed between the two. I didn't see a reason why D1 should've continued beyond then, and I think if anything, I should be given a medal for putting an end to an overly-drawn out Day. It's not accelerating the Day (I agree, a scumtell) if town apathy has set in like it did.

I was wagonning recklessly, but I wanted either one of my suspects lynched, and could not stand to see D1 go on any longer.

Fair enough if it's true. I have learned after a recent newbie game that there is such a thing as too much talk / town stagnation and it can hurt towns to not end days sooner.

@Unsight, Thief, and Paltry: Why is it wrong to speculate about his alignment the way I did?

You don't even know if I went anywhere as of yet. It was doubt on his claim for odd reasons. Trackers can help town just as easily, and along with the earlier rapid L-1 wagon it feels as though scum is trying to push a quick day. In other words: Thief was the only person being looked at beyond Pie's VibeBox case.

Do you disagree that Deer was not a good choice to investigate?

My other top suspect would be Red Star/replacement.

Why exactly?

[Chevre]

Because he seems to have disappeared after his questions in the beginning of the game, and then his PBPA referred to all posts by others that mentioned him as "fluff".

[VibeBox]

I've been gone. RL happens. When I tried to check in the forums were down.

Anyway, Im vanilla Town with my awesome special attacks "Discuss" and "Vote". I'll re-read what I've missed and try to care about this game enough to choose someone to claim next.

@ Pie: While I will certainly be going back over my Day 1 play and trying to evaluate if it was indeed a play mistake, I feel I made a reasonable choice at the time, and did what I thought was best for the Town.
To be honest though, now it's starting to feel like you've just latched on and want me lynched no matter what. Especially since you keep referencing my reaction to RS's PBP in such a way as to frame it as a ringing endorsement. It's not like I rambled on about what a good poster he was, and asking everyone to respond to it does not equal supporting its findings.

[Unsight]

I think, while I'll admit my opinion probably was a tad misguided or naive, that it's absolutely fair game for me to dispute claims on the basis of game balance if I think one alignment is more likely to be the case over another for a certain role. Yes, I'm doing a lot of setup probing (and therefore speculations into WIFOM territory), but I think it's pretty much what one has to do in order to determine the true nature of players' claims and optimal strategy.

@Unsight, Thief, and Paltry: Why is it wrong to speculate about his alignment the way I did?

Unvoting until massclaim finishes. I still think this is a mistake and will not change my mind, but I'll cave. I'm also starting to have fears that I'm tunnelvisioning, which I think may be a result of my mind being bogged down by the mass apathy that ensued D1.

Unvote

"@Unsight, Thief, and Paltry: Why is it wrong to speculate about his alignment the way I did? "

If it "was wrong" then you'd most certainly already know why making this a stupid question. If it "was not wrong" then I'd expect a more vigorous defense and not extreme amounts of wishy washy-ness (see below). I mean, not only did I not imply this but you didn't even answer the question I did ask. What the heck.

"Unvoting until massclaim finishes. "
^ Not scummy ^

v Scummy v
"I think, while I'll admit my opinion probably was a tad misguided or naive"
"I still think this is a mistake and will not change my mind, but I'll cave."

Vibebox didn't pick someone to claim next but I think Yabba should.

[yabbaguy]

To Paltry:

Why exactly [is WIFOM necessary]? As I said, I'm not familiar with mass claiming personally.

Setup speculation is mod WIFOM, pretty much. It's not so much a matter of Azelf-guessing, just guessing what would be right for any mod to properly balance the game. There's a gray area, it's not like if I'm wrong that the mod imbalanced the game, but it's just a matter of likelihood. That's why you have to weigh the possibilities like I did.

Do you disagree that Deer was not a good choice to investigate?

I would expect Thief to find Deer even nominally scummy, which I don't think he did once at all. If he's aiming at Mafia (tracking an SK kill is shooting fish in a barrel), then there is merit in going for someone they would perceive as hardly scummy. Frankly though, if you don't even find them scummy at all, it's wasteful if he's Town, and again, while I may be wrong, he could be Mafia-aligned.

---

Unsight:

"I think, while I'll admit my opinion probably was a tad misguided or naive"

Maybe it isn't. It's not scummy, but I'm really uncertain. I am wishy-washy. You are right.

I have problems that you claim that I should have been more vigorous on this statement, when I think that continuously insisting to the contrary that we shouldn't claim would be anti-town. Cooperation is pro-town.

"I still think this is a mistake and will not change my mind, but I'll cave."

"I still think" IS NOT a wishy washy phrase. If anything, I'm still taking a firm stance against it.

I haven't thought Mafia from a PR claim before, but Tracker is one of those roles that really could go either way, and being wrong about the opinion and being wrong to even start the opinion is not the same thing. Whether I have in the past or not should not be an issue, so I don't get why the answer is so critical.

I want to hear it from Vibe unless more protest. I actually have little idea ever since he Unvoted Thief where he stands.

---

Rereading now. My next two posts, in some order, will be me claiming or posting a rehash of thoughts.

[Thief]

Unsight your vote is still on me.

Unvote:
Vote: Chevre

[Unsight]

@Thief

I'm aware of that. You should be aware that an un-CC'd PR claim isn't an automatic get-out-of-lynch-free card and certainly doesn't affect my reasons for voting you in the first place. I may not be pushing for your lynch right now, but that doesn't mean that you're out of suspicion. If you're actually town then you need to knock off the bitter, whiny comments and actually do some scum hunting. Your play so far has been awful and your contributions have been almost non-existent.

I'm looking forward to Yabba's next post.

[Chevre]

Unsight your vote is still on me.

Unvote:
Vote: Chevre

I could see reasoning for this if VB had claimed a PR, but he didn't. Care to explain?

[Pie_is_good]

Life is happening. Will get back on top of it tonight or tomorrow morning.

[Pie_is_good]

@Pie: If I understand where you're coming from: Scum would want to pursue an aimless lead (aka RedStar's ISO) in order to distract? That's what I see as scummy about the Vibe comment.[/qutoe]
I'm not worried about distraction, no. Basically, I don't think a townie would choose to lie about their opinion, and I find "generating discussion" to be a pretty flimsy excuse. Running a filter between your brain and your keyboard that causes you to misrepresent what's going on in your brain is scummy.

To be honest though, now it's starting to feel like you've just latched on and want me lynched no matter what.

I want you lynched because I don't buy your defense, which is different than "no matter what." At this time, I'd be theoretically willing to get on a Chevre wagon if that's the way the wind blows. Honestly, though, massclaims tend to be gamechangers so this could all change. As much as anything, I'm pushing the point so that the game doesn't die while we wait for this slow massclaim to finish up.

Especially since you keep referencing my reaction to RS's PBP in such a way as to frame it as a ringing endorsement. It's not like I rambled on about what a good poster he was, and asking everyone to respond to it does not equal supporting its findings.

I found your response to RS odd and that's why I wanted to pressure you today. That pressure led to your admission of misrepresenting your thought process due to external factors, which is the part of your defense I can't get past.

@Chevre: Paltry laid out a decently compelling case against you; I'd like to hear you respond at some point.

I'm kind of waiting for Yabba's claim/rereads to weigh in on that wagon.

[Pie_is_good]

Quote tags are difficult things.

[Thief]

Of course my play is awful. I can't go getting night killed as a tracker now can I?

Plus I don't need to scumhunt when my town reads (you Pie, and Deerguy) will do it for me. I'll just piggy back off your reasoning for today until I get a guilty.

[Thief]

Chevre's latest post makes me certain of her being scum. She hasn't responded to the Paltry case (and most likely can't) and merely complains about being voted over the VT.

[Chevre]

There isn't much to respond to, except for the fact that PE wondered why it was such a problem that you investigated Deer, who he replaced. That whole scenario seems really strange.

And you still haven't explained your vote.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Chevre:

Where did Chevre go? Chevre disappeared after putting in their RVS vote, and then their returning post is… mediocre… at best.

This post is ridiculous. You search for ‘fence sitting’ in the responses to RedStar’s RQ’s. I implore EVERYONE to read Chevre’s opinions on the players in the game. There are TONS of ‘Neutral-leanings’. That is true fence sitting IMHO. On this post alone I’d be willing to lynch Chevre. Compare Chevre’s ‘leaning-scum’ feel on Thief to how sure Chevre is later on here when comparing him to SSBF.

This is the main part of the problem with your play so far Chevre. Especially that one post. Responding to how a town member who's searching for fence sitting could sit the fence so well in the SAME post is awesome sauce.

@VibeBox: Please come back and choose next claimer. Popcorn claiming continues.

[Chevre]

Your case

is ridiculous. I forced myself to put them leaning something. True fence-sitting would have been merely saying "neutral" for everyone one. And I couldn't put "SCUM" or "TOWN" for every persone either; I was NEVER that sure. I took my slightest gut feelings and used them to make sure they weren't neutral. I feel like your entire case doesn't represent my play, and it doesn't make sense.

[PaltryExcuse]

Your case

is ridiculous.

I forced myself

to put them leaning something. True fence-sitting would have been merely saying "neutral" for everyone one. And I couldn't put "SCUM" or "TOWN" for every persone either; I was NEVER that sure. I took my slightest gut feelings and used them to make sure they weren't neutral. I feel like your entire case doesn't represent my play, and it doesn't make sense.

The bolded part is the scary part. Long story short: you were fence sitting on the entire town and then in order to look like you were not you edited yourself. I would've preferred something to the effect of "there's a lot of noise, and it's effecting my reads on some people" but this 'neutral-leaning' is ineffective and easy to hide behind.

Would a Thief scum-flip affect your position on RedStar? As in, are there connections between Thief and RedStar that affects your position on the other?

[Chevre]

I wanted to put everyone somewhere that was not neutral. I wanted to have an opinion that was at least somewhat one way or the other. And why would I have said what you wanted me to say? That would've been a lie. My stances gave other players my opinions and a good starting point.

As for your completely unrelated question, no.

[PaltryExcuse]

I wanted to put everyone somewhere that was not neutral.

I wanted to have an opinion that was at least somewhat one way or the other. And why would I have said what you wanted me to say? That would've been a lie. My stances gave other players my opinions and a good starting point.

As for your completely unrelated question, no.

The bolded part again. Why not keep them neutral if you felt you didn't have a read on them?

[yabbaguy]

Ladies and gentlemen, the moment you've all been waiting hardly that long for.

It's...

*cheering*

And now, absolute silence. It's time for our feature presentation.

Chevre (CHEV) -??
MrSandman (SAND) -> sorasgoof (SORA)
PaltryExcuse (PALT) -> Deer (DEER) ??
Pie_is_good (PIIG) -> Elias_the_thief (ELIA) ?
Red Star (STAR)
Thief (THIF) ?---
Unsight (UNSI) -> Dr. Cyanide (CYAN) ??
VibeBox (VIBE) -??

DEAD:
Super Smash Bros. Fan (SSBF) -> Jag Johan (JAJO)
RealityFan (REAL) -> Cuetlachtli (CUET)
Empking (EMPK)

Ugh. Can't do post numbers. Meanwhile (?) = questionable and (-) = scummy

--DAY 1--
STAR begins the game with a survey questions. I actually am extremely dumb, this isn't RQS, it's not quite the format that it usually is. Notice though, by my count, 4 people didn't answer initially.
ELIA then goes on to vote me over "thinking like scum". That in itself isn't correct. (?)
VIBE decides to cross-defend against EMPK's points on me. ***Why?***
CHEV idly agrees with suspicions "If yabbaguy wouldn't have answered the questions and said that, I would have understood his response better." Doing this without voting strikes me as fencesitting on someone's alignment. (-)
CYAN mid-to-bottom of page 2 votes EMPK for generally nonsensical reasoning. (?)
STAR goes for two FOS' on CYAN and myself for rather minimal reasons, neither of which particularly strike me as good. This is actually a curious relation, is his reasoning on Cyanide perhaps distancing? (?)
STAR then declares his vote to be a pressure vote. Not sure what to make of that.
VIBE is doing a very large amount of common sense instillation in the players by page 2, by that, I mean "well he could easily be town because [this]". It's a rather abundant behavior, and I start to get the sense it's informed. (-)
THIF comes out with a case on me. It's bad at minimum, but this alone isn't scummy. Fine.
VIBE comes to white knight me against THIF with a comment about his case on me. More of the same.
THIF talks to VIBE almost as if in conversation whilst putting another bad point on me. Very interesting. (?)
VIBE puts an FOS on THIF to conclude page 4. Feels weak. (?)
DEER pops in just to reaffirm his case with nothing behind it. (?)
THIF shamelessly wagons JAJO. ***Why?***
VIBE mentions "Frankly I was so frustrated with the lack of activity in this game it was hard for me to even want to come to the thread, let alone post." Contrived if you ask me. (?)
THIF votes CYAN. He was V/LA, but claimed he has reasoning come page 8. Still didn't make any sense to me. (?)
CHEV posts a rehash of thoughts. As someone said, they all have the words "leaning" or "neutral" in them. ***Why so uncertain?*** (?)
UNSI replaces page 9 and quickly grabs at the JAJO/SSBF vote.
PIIG comes out with an SSBF vote (but wrongly claims it's L-2!), but also is perhaps the first to throw a VIBE case out. I thought this was baloney at first, but seeing VIBE's interactions gives me an interesting new read on the game.
THIF supposedly caves here to PIIG's experience and wagons SSBF. Shifty. (-)
REAL hammers and off to N1 we go, very disappointed.

--DAY 2--
CHEV recklessly puts Thief at L-1. Now if they're both scum, this is curious, but buddies is plausible, anyway. (?)
THIF refuses to claim (policy scumpoints), then a terrible vote on VIBE. (-)
PIIG: cue the massclaim request. He'll go on to win it, but I think with THIF's resistance, I think it never should've happened.
THIF after much whining and complaining, comes clean with the tracker claim. Again, can appear as both alignments. DEER (until PALT replaced) was nominally scummy *to me*, but what still irks me is that THIF put him a ways down on the scumlist.
PIIG, I don't know if I told him this, but I just said that I believed he was Tracker, but it was alignment-null.
PALT is annoyed that I was wagonning recklessly. Really, I stated ages ago that I wanted the Day to end simply due to the low activity rate.
CHEV bases an unvote off the lack of a counterclaim. Just bizarre.
THIF- AWFUL, AWFUL deflection. Fine, UNSI finds me scummy. That doesn't mean she unvotes you. (-)
CHEV and PALT are in a heated debate over the leaning debacle I mentioned as I round the homestretch. CHEV: I think the point here is that you should've been sure of at least ONE person to call them one way or the other.

Overall:

Chevre- tilting scummy (not sure which). She very readily accepts bandwagons at very inopportune times, and is a tad overly conservative on her scumhunting.
MrSandman- blank read. I'd like to think he's pro-Town, esp. with sorasgoof's flake-out, but really, I haven't any idea.
PaltryExcuse (Deer)- Town. The only situation where he's scum is if Thief is Town and Mafia didn't use him. Other than that, despite Deer's lackadaisical behavior, I think he's been a good contributor himself.
Pie_is_Good- Town. Interesting to note that he's the first one to offer suspicions on Vibe, but he was pretty much begging and pleading for them. While again, he's suggested sub-optimal Town play, his heart truly is in the right place. *sniffle, audience awws*
Red Star- Not Mafia, but tilting SK. Pro-Town at times, but then pretty much fell off the map. Hasn't done much that is abrasive, but really, I can't find the tells anywhere else.
Thief- Mafia, still. He basically does every blatant suspicion-dodging trick one can think of.
Unsight- tilting Town. Cyanide was mildly scummy when he was in, and Unsight sounds like she knows what she's talking about, but also decided on SSBF rather quickly and over one point. No concrete scumtells from what I gather, really.
VibeBox- Mafia. Sounds extremely informed when he cross-defends other players. Some of my suspicions even hinge on him being scum, so he really should be first in line for a lynch.

[yabbaguy]

Barring a game-shaker from the claim:

Vote: VibeBox

[PaltryExcuse]

@yabbaguy: Do you think it likely scum-Thief would choose his scum partner to go next in claiming?

[Pie_is_good]

Of course my play is awful. I can't go getting night killed as a tracker now can I?

Plus I don't need to scumhunt when my town reads (you Pie, and Deerguy) will do it for me. I'll just piggy back off your reasoning for today until I get a guilty.

With all due respect, we're not going to track our way to victory. Grow some balls.

@Yabba: Do we still get a claim? I'm losing patience with waiting on Vibey.

[yabbaguy]

@Paltry: Thief's first vote on Vibe was on D2, shortly after his wagon. Interestingly, despite ample time, I don't think he ever elaborated on it. (unfortunately- we didn't ask him, IIRC. *groan*). I think it could easily be a scum distance.

@Pie: Fiiiiine. *hmph*



Chevre next.

@Vibe: Who would've been your choice if you had actually replied?