Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[dybeck]

@Shanba: How did you choose your night targets? Are you trying to boost scum, or town?

[dybeck]

Sorry... forget that question. Obviously Faraday chose your night targets.

[dybeck]

Actually no, sorry. You've read your role PM. Can you speculate how Faraday chose his night targets?

Do you PERSONALLY feel that you should be targeting town, or scum?

[Patrick]

Votecount

Shanba (2) -- Jahudo, Albert B. Rampage
Espeonage (1) -- NickF227
NickF227 (2) -- Javert, curiouskarmadog
dybeck (1) -- boberz
Jahudo (2) -- Shanba, Espeonage
Javert (1) -- dybeck

Not voting: farside22
10 alive, 6 to lynch.

Deadline: June 19th

[boberz]

Dybeck you said I could ask to verify your claim on me. You have failed to do so therefore I asked for clarification and now you refuse to give it.

Did Patrick use the term Vanilla? Am I a vanilla townie, or a Vinalla Villager, be very careful I am already giving you a second chance.

Also would you be able to give Esp's role if required (note I am not asking for it but you do have the info)?

Even if you dont tell us the difference do you understand the difference of your weak and strong modes. And have you felt them change on any day.

Why If I am whichever role I you say I am did you warn me off breadcrumbing a role earlier today?

[NickF227]

/Prod

Sorry! I've been so busy with finals the past week or so, but now that I'm done I have more free time. I'll make a post later.

[farside22]

Jahudo:
He first comes in and does nothing but vote those that haven't responded or lurking and not making a case on anyone.
Finally he votes for Richard
hereWith very poor reasoning.
post 326 so you ignore the point by PZ that shows the back and forths?
[url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 59#2196759] post 491 [url] pushes the richard lynch more over bv lynch

This is interesting in light of Jahudo trying to push Espy lynch more now then bv before

@Papa Zito, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog
Can you show examples of what BV's "scum slip and fakeclaim" posts would look like if they got the same information across but were made by town? (The posts are where he doesn't consider the possibility of PZ as town, and where he says he's a magnet for VT roles.) I currently feel that these two posts are more about him having trouble getting his meaning across than they are slips and fakeclaims. So I believe his defense and don't see the rationale for a BV lynch.

After this Jah stuck with a list of scum he suspected since day 1. He followed ABR on the second scum suspect but keeps going back to the same people with the same case and not moving or thinking beyond that.
I could see Jahudo scum.

unvote:
vote: Jahudo

[dybeck]

Dybeck you said I could ask to verify your claim on me. You have failed to do so therefore I asked for clarification and now you refuse to give it.

Did Patrick use the term Vanilla? Am I a vanilla townie, or a Vinalla Villager, be very careful I am already giving you a second chance.

Yes, Patrick used the term vanilla. OMGZ THE SHOCKS PATRICK DIDN'T USE THAT EXACT WORD SOMEWHERE ELSE DYBECK MUST BE SCUM.

Also would you be able to give Esp's role if required (note I am not asking for it but you do have the info)?

I have that info, yes.

Even if you dont tell us the difference do you understand the difference of your weak and strong modes.

Yes. They're entirely distinct.[/quote]

And have you felt them change on any day.

No.

Why If I am whichever role I you say I am did you warn me off breadcrumbing a role earlier today?

Only because I planned to claim today, with my knowledge of your role as supporting evidence. And if you'd hinted at a role, I wouldn't have been able to do so.

[boberz]

That post read like it came from scum to me. Particularly the last point:

"Wouldn't have been able to do so" sounds to me like cooking up a fake claim. If you are a power role you can always claim, whether I breadcrumb or not makes no difference.

As a cop he knows whether I am a power role but as scum he doesnt know my whole role, I think Patrick would be careful to get the wording right especially as there has already been a discussion on the use of the word vanilla earlier, and he bothered to provide a standard vanilla messege in the OP.

[Jahudo]

There are 6 people alive who didn't end up voting to lynch BV.
@farside: was my reasoning the poorest out of that group? worse than faradays? worse than ABRs?

Jahudo:
He first comes in and does nothing but vote those that haven't responded or lurking and not making a case on anyone.

I've pretty much learned now that its "taboo". But really, I've done it in plenty of games before and never had any backlash like this.

Finally he votes for Richard
hereWith very poor reasoning.

More like awesome reasoning. Fake gambiting is something scum do. Check out this game if you have the time: Martyr Mafia. I had the shared cult leader by page 3 because of a fake gambit he pulled. It looked alot like how Richard was trying to dodge pressure in this game.

pushes the richard lynch more over bv lynch

Exactly. A BV lynch would've been okay from about mid-way through the day. He was just never my top suspect. I feel like this is how both myself and Javert were at day 1. That there were plenty of good suspects but BV wasn't our top choice.

After this Jah stuck with a list of scum he suspected since day 1. He followed ABR on the second scum suspect but keeps going back to the same people with the same case and not moving or thinking beyond that.
I could see Jahudo scum.

Except for the cases I made on boberz and Faraday. But all the other guys kept surviving and didn't do anything in my mind to look more town, except Nick's BV vote.

[curiouskarmadog]

I havent been prodded yet, but I am sure it is coming...hopefully will be able to updte this game this weekend.

[Espeonage]

Just got prodded. I'm still here. There just isn't much to say.

[Javert]

dybeck, if anything, it looks like you are trying to scare me off of questioning your claim.

Jahudo has asked you questions that you have not answered. farside22 has asked you questions that you have not answered. boberz has asked you questions that you have not answered. Shanba has echoed that you should explain your role.

Out of the nine players who are not you, five of us have questioned you about your claim. Portending “doom and gloom” if you are actually forced to explain yourself is not a persuasive reason to get me off of your case.

[Jahudo]

I don't mind if dybeck keeps quiet about the rest of his claim, so forget my questions.

Is anyone (except boberz) considering lynching dybeck if he doesn't answer?

[Espeonage]

Nah I'm cool dybeck atm. More claims than neccessary can't be good.

[boberz]

As far as I am concerned dybeck claimed he knew my exact role and didnt.

[dybeck]

As far as I am concerned dybeck claimed he knew my exact role and didnt.

Really? You're not a vanilla townie? This is very interesting stuff because the mod was pretty specific.

[Espeonage]

Bob. I know why you would be sceptical. Vanilla townie goes with whatever name we got given. Still explains the role.

[boberz]

I am a villager, but considering how specific the mod has been to make clear we are villagers, and I believe there was a discussion about how the roles could be different earlier it is not a mistake Patrick would make.

[boberz]

Bob. I know why you would be sceptical. Vanilla townie goes with whatever name we got given. Still explains the role.

We?

That is the one thing we know your not.

[dybeck]

Bob. I know why you would be sceptical. Vanilla townie goes with whatever name we got given. Still explains the role.

We?

That is the one thing we know your not.

And how do you figure this???

[Shanba]

Apologies for the lack of posts - I've been totally absorbed by the world cup.

dybeck: I assume he was trying to boost guys who he thought were town. Certainly, that's what I would do if I were him. Why do you think he would be aiming for someone else?

Also, I'd recommend boberz and dybeck and espy stop hinting at espy's role please. Honestly I can't get too excited about dybeck apparently having the name slightly wrong. I don't think he would claim role cop unless he was actually a role cop; it's such a risky claim for scum otherwise. Note I'm not saying he's scum, just that if he's scum he's probably a scum rolecop, and hence probably does know boberz role.

But I feel that the basis for your argument is that regardless of whether or not this tell was valid, and whether or not it could be applied to other people, I am a suspect because I did not help to lynch BV. And that last point is and always has been a valid point on me. And on you too.

This is pretty much an accurate assessment, but I think that's only a starting point: from there, you have to pick out whose reasons were legit and who was trying to save a scumbuddy.

I don't think we're getting any further by debating this, and it's distracting me from what I want to do next which is have another good look at the Sando wagon. That post will probably be up later today.

[dybeck]

dybeck: I assume he was trying to boost guys who he thought were town. Certainly, that's what I would do if I were him. Why do you think he would be aiming for someone else?

Well... you allegedly have absolutely no idea what your role does, right? So how do you know whether it's a positive thing or a negative thing?

[Shanba]

My role, as previously stated, stops other roles from malfunctioning. That sounds like a good thing to me.

[dybeck]

I don't mind dybeck's explanation, really. It at least lets me know where he's at,.

It's "Karma" mafia, after all - the mod's given it that name for a reason, and if scum are getting extra information based upon town's night actions, we should think about a strategy to counter it.

The one thing that is clear is that they're doing a good job of hitting PRs overnight, and we might want to examine whether this is just luck or whether town PRs are inadvertently helping them out.

I think it's obvious that since PR's have a weak strong mode obviously there's some negative effect. Since town doesn't know what it is, it seems obvious it's doing something to either 1) help scum and 2) hinder town.
The thing is, while trying to work it out is good I don't know where to start.

It was you that suggested scum get powers if town use them? I think it's possible, but the hider being in the set-up makes me feel that's less likely.

Just read back to see if I could find a hole in Shanba's claim. Came up with nothing really relevant apart from the above. Which actually seems to tie in well with the claim. Something about it screams baloney to me, but I think perhaps we should give Shanba the benefit of the doubt - for today at least.