Newbie 965 (Game Over)

For Newbie Games, which have a set format and experienced moderators. Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #225 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:16 am

Post by AGar »

Vote: Wraith


highlights:

ISO #4 - Accuses people of getting twitchy for FOSing a lot, trying to get people off of Quadz's case.
ISO #6 - No suspicions whatsoever. While early in the game, reeks of fencesitting to me.
ISO #7 - Two game posts later, casts a vote on DP, as if trying to appear townie by casting a vote. The only post in between was this one, which only welcomed me to the game and said we shouldn't push a no-lynch.
ISO #23-27 - No content. Game was slow, but the best way to attempt to speed up a slow game is to push content. In 27, gets a bit OMGUSy/over-defensive about an accusation, not a vote.
ISO #33 - Pushes a case on someone he's already voted, as if trying to speed the lynch process up. Doesn't bring much new to the table, so basically a big smokescreen.
ISO #36 - Tries to partner a non-confirmed suspect up with a scumbuddy while also trying to buddy up to silverbullet.




A bit of a quick note. People NEED to stop getting ahead of themselves here. There is NO point in trying to put a scumpair together right now until we have lynched at least one scum. Otherwise, you're just distracting the town and pushing yourself into the next day with pre-conceived notions.
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Post Post #226 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:24 am

Post by Beefster »

@AGar: I definitely see your point on Wraith. I would like to add his fence-sitting to the list and note for later that if one of Wraith/mallowgeno is scum, the other probably isn't.

Pair possibilities are helpful to note for later, even if they are a bit ahead of where we are. It's true though that they aren't very useful until a scum lynch. I present them as loose links.
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Post Post #227 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:28 am

Post by silverbullet999 »

There is NO point in trying to put a scumpair together right now until we have lynched at least one scum.
I agree... also as we still have craps load of time... I think it unwise to hammer so soon.

-mallow

Before I get hammered, I want to out my foses:
#1 Quadz. Seems scummy to me b/c of his constant agreement and little-no evidence.
#2 NobodySpecial. A gut feelin

Good Luck town!

You may hammer me now.
Why the defeatist attitude and are you claiming VT?

[ungame related]
Also get that avatar up!
[/ungame related]

-Wraith
Now you got me curious again!

When you posted your suspicions of everyone
2. silverbullet: pro-town, scumhunter extraordinaire
(also *blush* at the compliment)

but then 4 posts later...
I had suspicions on silver myself a while ago
I'm gonna say that at first you had suspicions of me (therefore awhile ago)... but currently i'm pro-town in your eyes. Am i right in this? Idk it just seemed strange to me that when someone mentioned that they had a scum feeling of me you brought this up.
... People were right it seems....
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Post Post #228 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:35 am

Post by silverbullet999 »

-Wraith
Nevermind, rereading it again I think my initial guess was right, just had a strange impression on me at first.
... People were right it seems....
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Post Post #229 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:35 am

Post by mallowgeno »

silverbullet999 wrote: are you claiming VT?
yes
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Post Post #230 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:21 am

Post by silverbullet999 »

-mallowmar

Now, why this defeatist attitude. You seem certain you'll get lynched. Why aren't you pushing the cases you stated before? This is especially important if you do get lynched and flip town... this way we can look back and say hey! Townie mar pointed this out! We can trust that! blah blah blah...
... People were right it seems....
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Post Post #231 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:37 am

Post by Nobody Special »

I concur -- wholeheartedly -- with SB.

Mallow, if you're really town, we need you! Help us catch the bastages.

In other news, I've been more or less watching this thread today, but haven't had much chance to form coherent thoughts (work's been really busy). And I'm going out tonight, so I'll be posting some real thoughts tomorrow morning.

Until then....
....what?



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Post Post #232 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:41 am

Post by mallowgeno »

Wow NS you sound like an echo
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Post Post #233 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:36 pm

Post by quadz08 »

mallow, you are making me sad. :( Giving up a good game does not make.
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Post Post #234 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:34 pm

Post by silverbullet999 »

Wow NS you sound like an echo

mallow... this doesn't sound like a case...
... People were right it seems....
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Post Post #235 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:35 pm

Post by Jeffcole1 »

Vote Count 1.8:


mallowgeno (4): quadz08, Uite, Wraith, Nobody Special

quadz08 (3): mallowgeno, silverbullet999, DavidParker
Wraith (1): AGar

Not Voting (1): Beefster

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Edit: mallowgeno is at L-1.
Last edited by Jeffcole1 on Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #236 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:35 pm

Post by silverbullet999 »

quadz and beefster, only 2 with no vote

top 2 suspects and why please
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Post Post #237 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:42 pm

Post by Wraith »

I though quadz voted? I might be wrong.
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Post Post #238 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:05 pm

Post by quadz08 »

@mod: I voted mallowgeno in post 214


Vote count fixed.


@silver: He's the biggest one, right now. As of now, I don't see anything exceptionally scummy from anyone else. To answer the first question that I'm sure will come up at some point: as the game goes on, DP looks less and less scummy to me, and more just like he was playing badly / overconfidently.

AGar, however, is beginning to ring bells to me. He's posted 5 times in the course of this game (Beefster has posted 6 times, and came in very late, and the lowest from anyone else is 19) and while I realize RL stuff has an effect on how often someone can post, that does seem a lot like lurking. He's also voted in 2 of those 5 posts. One of them was DP, right in the midst of when all the heat was on DP, and he provided no new evidence. He did ask questions of each player, hoping to start up some new discussion. The second vote was on Wraith, in his most recent post. This one adds some new thoughts, so that's positive.

Another two of those 5 were basically filler (and a smidge of SE advice, I guessssss.):
Crap! World Cup fever has gotten me all out of whack. Sorry guys! Catching up now, promise!
Note: DavidParker is a L-1 by my count.

That means no one should hammer until he has fair time to explain himself, and convince us otherwise.

Also, the town should never never never NEVER no lynch on Day 1. In all variants of newbie games (Pie E7, C9, Original and the current F11 setup), when a no-lynch has occurred on Day 1, Mafia wins 15 out of 18 times.
The remaining one was answering two short questions from silver and I. All in all, he has made very little contribution, yet voted twice, while managing to stay out of the light by posting very sparsely.

Wooooo! Post done.
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Post Post #239 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:40 pm

Post by DavidParker »

Lurking is just a no-tell though. It could be a scum-lurker and is a dirty play for scum to just "afk" and avoid suspicion, but lynching based on that is risky as it may just be a VT who is disinterested because they are a VT and fell behind in discussion so don't want to get involved.

I think there is a good case against mallow, but I also see a case in his favor. Although some of his slip-ups do almost seem unforgiveable. If mallow isn't scum, I'd say that makes Wraith very likely to be scum, not because of his huge case against mallow, but because these were the two who said they would hammer me. I think odds are, one of them is scum for trying to push a quick lynch on me.

At the moment I'm more keen to believe its Wraith.

Vote: Wraith


I'm actually more suspicious of quadz and wraith over mallow. I do feel that the second scum could be someone unexpected like SB/NS/Beefster though, so not going to guess on possible scum pairings any more.
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Post Post #240 (ISO) » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:40 am

Post by mallowgeno »

I don't really have anything to contribute. All I can say is what I agree with and what I think is crap. I do agree that Wraith is becoming more and more scummy. I'll post what I think of everyone:

NS-Leaning towards scum
DP-Probably Town
Wraith-Leaning Scum
SB-Leaning Town
Quadz-Scum
Beefster-No clue
AGar-No clue
Uite-Probably Town
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Post Post #241 (ISO) » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:43 am

Post by Wraith »

@DP: I'm not sure I follow your logic, or AGar's either. Apparently, "sitting on the fence" and waiting for people to slip up so there is evidence that they are scum makes ME scum, yet when I do scumhunt using evidence of extremely scummy play, I'm also scum? What logic is this again?
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Post Post #242 (ISO) » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:08 am

Post by DavidParker »

Lol, you are trying pretty hard to not seem like scum.. Thing is if you're a townie, you take people calling you scummy with a grain of salt. You know it should probably wash over if you don't take it too personally or if you make a good case. The fact you are reiterating your actions as to why we shouldn't see you as scum, is scummy in itself. You should just accept people find you scummy, when you try prove and go out of your way to show you're not scummy, that's when your scumminess really shows!
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Post Post #243 (ISO) » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:27 am

Post by Nobody Special »

I'm torn. On the one hand, mallow's being useless, so deserves a lynch. On the other hand, I hate lynching a claimed VT. However, if he's not going to help us, he is hurting us. On the other hand....

Aargh.

Now, AGar, with the lurking, is pinging my radar. Oh, AGar, please post. More.

My main suspicion on quadz was with the mallow buddying. Since mallow has claimed VT (and, for whatever reason, I believe him), that takes some suspicion away from quadz. (But maybe that's just what they
want us to think...
Hello, WIFOM!)

I don't think a mallow lynch or a quadz lynch would serve us today.

@Wraith (and all): I believe 'UCCed' was being used as un-counter-claimed.

On to WraithAnalysis:
Wraith Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:57 pm wrote:I don't appreciate your baseless accusations. Luckily for you, mallow being scummier at the moment overtakes priority from an OMGUS vote.
Wraith Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:19 pm wrote:Alright, reading over the whole topic again, my scumdar is starting to spark on mallowgeno
At 3:29 am, mallow posted this.

While mallow didn't confirm his VT claim until 2:35 pm, two people had asked for clarification as to whether that was a VT claim. Wraith was
not
one of those people.
Wraith Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:56 am wrote:@Beefster: I had suspicions on silver myself a while ago, thinking he could be scumteam with someone else (I think it was DP I was considering to be his partner). However, because a mallow/quadz or mallow/someone else scumteam is definitely more likely, I view silver as a very zealous scumhunter.
unvote

Vote: Wraith.


I just don't think his tunneling of mallow is very town.
....what?



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Post Post #244 (ISO) » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:49 am

Post by Wraith »

Well, I tend to get concerned when I have two votes on me. I'd like to think you'd get concerned when a BW in the making is on you (and you did). I was just going to point out faulty logic and leave it at that. But if you want to play the "reiterating your actions so you don't look scummy because you're actually scum" game I can play too.

Post 33:
I didn't reveal who I found most suspicious until I saw someone else agreed (unless it was a random vote).. Why? Because I was hoping he would further confirm my suspicions by acting even scummier. I assumed by voting for him that implied Nobody Special found him suspicious as well.

Regardless, I put a second vote on someone.. So what? The first was an unexplained random vote.. Or a vote based on suspicions that weren't explained, I decided to go on that and vote as well and explain why I found him fishy. It's just the vibe I got. Which is all I have to go on at the moment, and the discussion being created.

If I had to take a guess right now I'd guess that Nobody Special is mafia with quadz. Obviously, that's a huge longshot, but that's the best longshot I see at the moment.
At this point you had 2-3 votes on yourself for your attitude, primarily. You are defending your own actions in an attempt to get people off your back.

Post 69 concerns your questions to get help as to how you should get the scumhunters off your back. And later on people were criticizing quadz for asking a very similar question - basically, "how can I act more pro-town?"
THat aside, I think I was too hasty too point out some of my suspicions. Instead of getting the discussion I wanted (And pointing out that I did find quadz to be most suss, although really it wasn't based on much but the impression I got from him) I've just got people asking me to explain myself. Nothing really to help me with my scrum hunting. But that's been my own folly, game's here follow a different structure to games I've played on other sites, and I probably should have just been a learner than someone trying to get "too involved".
And this part of that post is you explaining your actions up to that point.

In Post 70, you continue to defend your actions and attempting to get people off your back by saying that focusing on you will draw suspicion from "actual scum players." Also, I think this is when you put down your cop claim.

Post 76:
I said I had already decided what I was going to do, and was asking you what you would do to find out more, my form of "scum hunting". I wasn't going to followin anyone's advice, although chances are what I do will be what someone answers.

My questions were designed to figure out more about you guys and "scum-hunt".
Again, "reiterating your actions." Also, rereading, Post77 is starting up my scumdar again:
@Uite, I knew the bandwagon didn't exist, that was my attempt to start one.
Early lynch is a major scumtell, which a lot of people seem to have ignored. However, mallow's play, and early lynch attempt, is twenty times scummier than yours.

Let's talk about your logic (and AGar's). I have not "sat on the fence" since about Page 3. I "sat on the fence" until someone's scummy play earned my vote, in which case it was you, at first. Then mallow caused my scumdar to go off the charts so I changed my votes. Your accusations that I've "sat on the fence" too hard and are therefore scum are null. Now, quadz has tried to sit on the fence too hard, in my opinion, and you reiterate your suspicions in Post 85:
@uite, my reasons include him trying too hard to sit back on the fence. I read his posts from a scum point of view and it makes sense as to how he's trying to play it smart. He knows I'm not scum so he's not jumping onto this bandwagon, he's waiting for other people to justify it, so if he can get involved he's not responsible in any way.

He seems to point out some obvious points: ie that statement which is always true, and then adds that we should wait for dRool in case he's that "more scummy" person... He's an "experienced player" (whatver the acronym here is), if he's mafia, you have a 0/100 chance he will come in here and do something suspicious when all the heat is on me. Why you would even think he's going to come in here and turn himself into a target makes no sense.

He's pointing out how many agree with his position, and just can't stick by his own justification.
Post 84 shows you reiterating (for the third or fourth time) your suspicions of people who stay neutral.
Just browsing through these games, they can just be characterised by people staying as neutral as possible... Which seems to me ridiculous. People all just try analyze critically stuff when there's nothing there. The mafia game at it's core is a guessing game. You have to make guesses and have convictions, if everyone does everything just via neutrality and careful analysis, then you get no where. Every lynch is "justified" and mafia never have any responsibility if they do the same thing the town does. By actually posting a case against someone for little, but doing so that you don't back down, you can learn a lot more than this hurr durr DP is suss for being arrogant etc. This isn't creating any discussion or helping scum hunting at all (unless of course if I am scum). But by focusing on people for reasons people won't agree with you can learn something
People, let's be reasonable. It's Day One. Day ONE. The only evidence we have at this point against anyone are the wording of posts, attitudes, and voting patterns. No one has died yet, so we don't know alignments, and we can't assume guilt by association or vote patterns yet. People are going to be neutral, because there is just not enough evidence to convince some people by wording alone. I'm not one of them. Mallow has played an extremely scummy game so far, and a few others have as well (quadz and DP in particular). With such scummy play by these players, you can't just lynch someone based on "oh they've stayed neutral they must be scum try to blend in too hard." I consider that a scumtell if they still sit on the fence on Day 2 onward.

Post 89, this is where DP starts getting angry:
So... you're saying we shouldn't analyze, and make random guesses? That sounds like a plea from someone who knows their play doesn't stand up to analysis to me.
HAHAHA this is where I lost myself. Was laughing so hard as I read your post.. You're "GODLIKE ANALYSIS" has led the town into lynching the cop you retarded inbred.

GOOD ANALYSIS MATE

Honestly, I don't think a single person here has any idea what they're doing, no one even puts effort into their analysis. Hence the terrible poopy not making sense etc. This isn't worth my time, just lynch me.

fuck your reasoning, but I just can't take these terrible ideas like voting people for retarded reasons. A ploy? How about this, I'm the detective. Yes, game ruined. We all happy?
Here you're firing back against people who are voting against you. Apparently, I'm scum because I'm doing the same thing to you and AGar. Hypocritical logic much?

There we go. You've accused me of being a scumbag for firing back against accusations/votes and for supposedly "sitting on the fence." Your relentless attacks against me (which are hypocritical, considering you've used the same defenses as I've outlined above) cause me to draw two conclusions as to your motives:

1. You've either targeted me for a mislynch today or another day
2. You're retaliating for my earlier post

Despite the huge amount of evidence I've compiled against mallowgeno, you seem determined to attack ME? That's a scumtell to me, called the Chainsaw Defense, in which a scum partner attacks those who attack his partner. At this point I'm rather certain that mallow is scum. If he flips town, he played so scummy it's his own fault. If he flips scum, I was on the mark. Either way, stop searching for half-assed reasons to accuse me and look at who's
really
playing scummy here. Unless you already know.
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Post Post #245 (ISO) » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:18 am

Post by Uite »

I'm sorry I haven't been very active lately, but I haven't been feeling that well the past few days. Catching up and re-reading what had been said, I've got a few comments I'd like to make.

@AGar: Post more!

@Nobody Special: Why did you vote silverbullet999 in post #148? It didn't seem to have any real justification, and there were people with more obvious cases against them.

@mallowgeno: I'm repeating SB and NS here, but why the defeatist attitude? Your lynch is not certain yet! There's plenty you can do helping us with our investigations if you're town, or aiding your buddy if you're scum. Remember, you don't lose if you die, you lose only if your team loses.

Also, generally, I have a question about strategy. Right now, some strong cases have been made, and I'm wondering when would be a good time for the hammer to fall. If we lynch now, we get a lot of information; at least one player will have his allegiance revealed, and we can start analysing actual voting behaviour. On the other hand, we still have almost two weeks till deadline, and that is a lot of time for good discussions. It seems to me that it is a situation of diminishing returns though, so ultimately my question is: is there a good quick-and-dirty solution for when to let the day end?

Finally, people, please include the person you're quoting in your quote tag! Reading back, it gets very hard to follow an argument if you don't immediately get who it's about! This goes triple when read in iso. In case you don't know:

Code: Select all

[quote="Uite"]blahblah[/quote]
gives you this:
Uite wrote:blahblah
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Post Post #246 (ISO) » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:10 am

Post by DavidParker »

I agree that there will be diminishing returns, but it basically comes down to agreeing on a lynch a majority are happy with.

At the moment I wouldn't be happy with a mallow lynch. I don't think we can learn as much from lynching him than others. And I believe his VT claim. With that said, if the person we lynch today pops as town, I will be back into pressuring mallow intensively.

Then we have quadz, whose main scumminess was his alliance to mallow. I still think it's possible he's scum with someone else, but there are other people who are just as scummy when you take away his buddying with mallow (who I believe atm).

So this leaves me with fewer people:

Uite/SB: Well I don't forsee either lynch happening today. At this current moment I'm not happy with a lynch on either since there has been no discussion regarding either. Obviously, we would need them to be pressured and defended to learn anything from either of their lynches.

NS/Wraith: Both seem like good lynches for today. Both have been pressured somewhat (Wraith more than NS recently), and I think both have acted like scum at various times.

Agar/Beefster: Agar, the lurker, and beefster the replacement. IT's hard to get anything from either. Agar is just lurking whether intentional or not is hard to know. Beefster only joined the discussion late, which for scum makes it very easy to fit in and avoid suspicion when you just have to analyze the first 8 pages of discussion rather than take part in it. As an experienced player, it's quite easy to avoid being scummy when you replace into day 1 on page 8, without any posts from the person you replaced. Both these players could be a viable lynch as if they aren't going to add anything we have to get a read at some point, and the best way seems to be by killing them off.

I'm keen to get this game moving simply to keep interest high and keep up activity. Sure it may be more optimal to wait to the end of the deadline for a lynch, but people play this game for enjoyment, and ending day phase sooner keeps interest higher.

I don't forsee many new cases being introduced today against anyone. A night's activities will give the town valuable information (as will lynching a player regardless of his role). Sure a mislynch helps the scum, but mislynches are inevitable. I think we should get this game moving. It will just come to a bit of a stall if we keep day 1 alive just for the sake of it. An abundance of information is awaiting in the form of a lynch and a night's activities (And honestly speaking, I'm just hoping I can use my role hoping so hard mafia don't believe my claim for whatever reason. Did I mention I'm a VT? JK, I know some people have a lynch all liars policy so I won't go there).


So if we are to lynch soon (imo in the next 2-3 days preferably), who? As stated, there are 3 people I don't want to lynch: mallow/uite/SB. They are all contributing and active, so it's possible to find out scumminess for these players based on who we lynch today and the night's activities. And the latter 2 have had no pressure/votes on them so we won't learn much from their lynches. THe former, just doesn't seem like scum to me. Honestly, I believe him more than anyone else atm. (funny considering how hard he pushed for my lynch.

So, with all cases present, I think a quadz/Wraith lynch is likely (atm Wraith lynch seems to be the popular opinion) although I think a lynch on NS could happen due to some of his actions, or even an Agar lynch for his lurking might happen.

My vote on Wraith still stands, although if a more appealing band wagon starts I'm likely to opt into it depending on the circumstances.
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Post Post #247 (ISO) » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:23 am

Post by Nobody Special »

Uite wrote:@Nobody Special: Why did you vote silverbullet999 in post #148? It didn't seem to have any real justification, and there were people with more obvious cases against them.
Nobody Special wrote:@SB: Here's the thing: If a player truly is scummy, even when you point out what they're doing that's perceived as scummy, and they stop that, there will be more (usually).

All we have to do is find the next scummy thing they do.

For wanting to keep his information to himself,


unvote

Vote: silverbullet999
I have bolded the reason, which was immediately preceding the vote. (I prefer to have votes on their own separate line; often, to incorporate the vote into the sentence, it breaks up like that. But it makes my OCD happy, so.) (Looking at it now, I could've put the unvote earlier in the post; I see what's distracting now about how I wrote it. Sorry.)

Uite wrote:is there a good quick-and-dirty solution for when to let the day end?
No.


I am a bit unnerved by DP's insistence that he
believes
mallow's VT claim. This could be indicative of a DP/mallow scumteam. I was completely willing to believe DP's earlier cop claim, but now, not so much. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
....what?



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Post Post #248 (ISO) » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:47 am

Post by Wraith »

I'm rather annoyed that the people who are voting for me are:

1. Ignoring major scumtells on mallow (early lynch, BW<<<<this just flashes red to me)
2. Insisting that my defense of myself is scummy. We're at the tipping point here, and apparently attempting to keep myself from getting killed is a scumtell.
3. Believing DP's case over mine. His entire case is based around the vague ambiguity that I am trying to blend in as town too much. I've pointed out several scumtells that mallow has slipped up with. The only case DP has against me is that I'm defending myself against lynch.
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Post Post #249 (ISO) » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:54 am

Post by Wraith »

@Uite: Thanks. In all my years of forumgoing I never figured out how to do that.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly

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