Mini 981: Descent into Chaos (Game Over)

[farside22]

Pitt: Why are you helping the scum out with telling them the best way to escape from a plan?
UK: I want a break down of your plan because I didn't see what Nik says was the plan.
VV: discussing the sleep idea is not a waste of discussion and I see UK doing both discussion and scum hunting.

[Pittbunny]

So town doesn't do something stupid, obviously. That argument should probably stop coming up in mechanics discussions; either town needs to get seriously informed, or left totally in the dark. Don't wishywash in between, that leads to a scum advantage in information. Obviously, with all the talk about sleep plans, you can't make the playerbase ignorant about sleeping by now; ergo, spread the information far and wide and make sure you've clearly outlined where scum could try to find cracks so that either you fix it or another player does. Repeat until a solid plan is established.

[UncertainKitten]

@StupidVesu1: (Thanks for that, Pitt, I enjoy it)
It tells us when people are sleeping so we know what to expect from them regarding voting/fatigue, and whether they are lying or not. The Sleep Cycle isn't going to strongly help us catch scum, but without organization is more likely to screw us up.

@StupidVesu2: Well, you see, the reason you can't admit that I've caught two scum is, well, because you are one of them, and have actually been scumhunting. You've just been flailing like an idiot and coming up with subpar explanations for...oh, just about everything ^-^.

OMGUS? Hahaha, well, you do suck but honestly, I would have HoS'd you even if you WEREN'T voting me. You are being BLATANTLY FUCKING ANTI TOWN.

@StupidVesu3: So, basically you are against NIGHT sleeping, which we've established is a subpar plan. Since, Day sleeping, you know, makes that situation null. And organized day sleeping, prevents us by being overwhelmed by scum. Derpass.

@StupidVesu4: Then, could you please explain how NOT organizing sleep helps us catch scum?

tl;dr: Vesu is stupid. And he should feel bad for being so stupid. Whatever stupid ideas he have completely don't solve anything and he's just scared as fuck of having an organized town string him and his buddies up.

@Pitt: Yeah, we kinda worked out that night sleep plans are going to likely be ineffective.

@Pitt: You are basically echoing my plan. Though, I think we can have up to Players to Lynch subracted from Players Alive sleeping at a given time.

@farside: I broke down my plan once already for day sleeping. In fact, I even QUOTED that segment so PEOPLE WOULD TALK ABOUT IT.

I'll say it again. Everyone who will be sleeping during the next day phase needs to say they will be before the prior day ends. If we have more than Players to lynch subtracted from players alive wanting to sleep, we keep the scummiest of them awake. My numbers MAY need to be worked out better. If we stagger that way, it should be easier to prevent scum bullshit.

I understand Pitt's approach, and actually sorta agree with it thinking on it. Relying on your unknown opponents to be stupid isn't a good idea.

[farside22]

So town doesn't do something stupid, obviously. That argument should probably stop coming up in mechanics discussions; either town needs to get seriously informed, or left totally in the dark. Don't wishywash in between, that leads to a scum advantage in information. Obviously, with all the talk about sleep plans, you can't make the playerbase ignorant about sleeping by now; ergo, spread the information far and wide and make sure you've clearly outlined where scum could try to find cracks so that either you fix it or another player does. Repeat until a solid plan is established.

How do you fix something like that?
@UK: Seriously walk away from the game. Take a deep breathe and come back tomorrow. Your attitude is grating right now.
As for discussing who would sleep day 2 at the start I agree maybe 3 may 4 people max to sleep tomorrow. I say play it day by day how many sleep each day.
If we lynch scum today then 4 people that didn't sleep day 2 get to sleep day 3 at the start. I think this may hurt some people by day 4 so those who didn't sleep during the day (lets call this the scummiest players) can only sleep during the night.
What is wrong with forcing those we find the scummiest not to sleep during the day?

[UncertainKitten]

I thought I was a lot nicer in that last post, actually. I'm just telling the truth we he's stupid.

Stupid scum at that. At least I didn't overuse profanity and mostly stuck to calling him stupid and telling him (and everyone else) why.

But whatever.

[VasudeVa]

While calling each other names is somehow part of the game, whatever you are spewing is uncalled for, borderline scummy and, quite frankly, needlessly bitchy.

I'll be replying to that post whenever you feel like discussing like a normal human being, thanks. For what it's worth, me dissenting against your opinion does not make me stupid.

Honestly, I don't know what the fuck I did to deserve this. >.>

[UncertainKitten]

It's not you dissenting. It's the fact that your logic...isn't. You are making absolutely no sense and it pisses me off because you are attacking me for no reason.

Is that "reasonable" enough for you?

You...no, your posts, which is more accurate, read as utterly dumb. You as a person might not be dumb, but I don't feel that your posting reflects that.

You either don't understand the sleep cycle, don't understand what I'm saying, or both. Well, actually, thinking on it, that would be assuming you were town. I'm not assuming that, so you are probably willfully doing both.

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP: No good/logical/makes sense whatsoever reason.

In fact, IIRC, the case on me boils down to too townie to be town. Which is, of course, not very bright.

[Pittbunny]

How do you fix something like that?

Depends entirely on what the crack in the problem is, and the ingenuity of the town. You can't expect to say 'well how?' to my generalistic response and get me to say a specific response in return.

As for this little scenario? The fix is to refine the daysleep plan via actual concrete numerical data, and make sure that it's solid before psychological ploys are factored in. Temporarily ignore any particularly tricky roles (like cop/doc,etc. essentially vanilla vs goons), run simple numbers, and if you get what looks like good results (at the very least higher than 50/50), see if by logic you can get the system to hold weight when a game of PRs is factored in.

[SaintKerrigan]

I looked around the river area, but couldn't find Abner there. I then went up to the supply wagon to see if he went to get something, but when I got there, the only two people I saw were Ferdinand Kepples and Marya Torr. They looked at me as I approached them.

"What's going on?" Ferdinand asked me, in that nasally tenor voice of his. For some reason, it irritated me.

"I'm looking for Abner," I replied. "Either of you seen him?"

They shook their heads. "Haven't seen him since we left the riverside," Marya replied. "Probably hanging out with that bitch Alicia."

"He told me they stopped having a relationship a long time ago," I said.

Marya sneered. "And when has that stopped her from doing anything? She's nothing but a whore in Guild clothing. She can't take what a real sorceress could take."

"And I suppose you're going to prove it, huh?"

"Just you wait. She thinks she's a goddess, but she'll fall to earth soon enough." Marya brushed past me and walked toward the river.

"She's particularly icy today," I remarked.

Ferdinand nodded quietly and nibbled on his traveler's bread. I waved farewell and went towards the cave entrance to see if Abner had gone there, for some reason.

Vote Count 1.5

(3) easjo682: UncertainKitten, farside22, Nikanor
(2) UncertainKitten: easjo682, VasudeVa
(1) VasudeVa: Me=Weird
(1) Chronopie: Albert B. Rampage
(1) Albert B. Rampage: vIQleS
(1) ReaperCharlie: Pittbunny

Not Voting: ReaperCharlie, Chronopie, Kenman

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is Sunday, June 6th, 2010 at 11:00 a.m. CST.

[Me=Weird]

What the!? Page

7

? Will read in a minute.

[UncertainKitten]

@Me=Weird: We have six days to make an informed lynch. We are almost down to four of those days. I'm glad we have so much activity to be honest.

[Me=Weird]

Oh yeah, I am too. I just didn't

expect

this much. big difference between wanting something and expecting it.

[Pittbunny]

Wow, flavor just doesn't like you UK...

[vIQleS]

FOS: Viqles

Be a good boy, little scrub. Do as you're told.

And it all comes flooding back...

Sigh...

For future flavor purposes, this is my character's relationship with the other players:

vIQleS (Jonqin Aldertoss)

Hates 'em.

Mutual

Unvote: ABR

[easjo682]

Please, tell me PRECISELY how scum supposedly gets ANY advantage from organized sleep cycles.

if PR are active only on certain nights then they have a more select group that they know who PR belong to theyby eliminating more useful townies sooner.

[quote="UK]I love how you also completely ignore forced sleep after phase 6. [/quote]

thats because the way you were proposing things didn't involve sleep phase 6.

Oh, and finally, an organized town is scary for scum in GENERAL, not specifically related to sleep cycles. Towns that are willing to actually plan will slowly circle in on scum as more information becomes available. You and Vasu seem rather...oh, NERVOUS, about this idea.

yes an organised town is great against scum, but I still think that everyone knowing when everyone is planned to sleep provides more benefit to scum than town.
How does knowing sleep cycles benefit town? mafia is stiil going to kill

Why didn't you comment about nik's plan?

though I didn't directly mention his name I thought the very fact that I'd said how the night 3/4 everyone sleeps plans would fail, mostly because there is only a chance of votes mucking up.

[quote="UK']easjo is still obvscum, VasudeVa is also obvscum[/quote]
nice OMGUS and selecting only those who are against organised sleep cycles

The current plan is to assign half the town to sleep during the day, and the rest have to figure out when to sleep on their own time, right?

that sound even worse than organising everyone to sleep.

[Chronopie]

^Flavour me

really

has a problem with Flavour UK lol. Well I did say Flavour me would love to kick Flavour UK to the curb several pages ago

afaik the sleep cycle involves no-one sleeping for the first few phases, mass-sleep on the last night phase before randomness sets in, if we still had an NK, seeing who didn't sleep i.e. has randomly affected voting pattern, and lynching the scummy bastard that didn't sleep. amirite? or am I moving in the wrong direction?

--

Organised sleep cycling is a pro-town move, as it allows us to pick out scum based on randomness in voting on non-sleepers, right?

--

Devil's Advocate: Nothing to prevent scum staggering sleep on nights without telling the town. i.e N1: Scum A sleeps, B kills. N2: Scum B sleeps, A kills. No randomness in votes involved, thus negating that advantage.

^Just screwed up any chance of catching scum that way.

[ReaperCharlie]

I haven't bothered to read too in-depth into all the sleep strategies, but they all seem relatively futile to me.

Since days are so short, I suggest we ALL sleep whenever we feel is the best to us. If it's anti-town of me to suggest this, so be it. I think it's far more trouble than it's worth to coordinate something like this (which probably won't work anyway), and it's wasting valuable scumhunting time.

Love,
ReaperCharlie

[SaintKerrigan]

Just letting you guys know that I'm going on V/LA until early Saturday morning, so I won't be checking the site as frequently as usual during that period. I'll still be around, though, so you can still ask me stuff and send me actions.

[UncertainKitten]

@easjo1: Um...no? How are they going to know what PRs are active and who's a PR? You still haven't adequately explained this? ever?

@Easjo2: From what I remember, that was actually the original night sleeping plan that you have chosen to ignore the details of. Though, it does have enough flaws so as not to be worthwhile.

@easjo3: Have you been ignoring every benefit mentioned thus far? Just because we don't necessarily prevent the scum kill doesn't mean that we still don't get valuable information about who the scum are by organized sleep cycles, especially organized DAY sleep cycles. I also think the way I proposed handling day sleep would increase the chances of a situation where scum would be caught.

@easjo4: So, why am I scummy and Nik's not? Since he was the one who proposed the plan? Is it because there was no one accusing nik that you could piggyback off of? Oh, yes, it is.

@easjo5: Well, while you and Vasu both suck, I love how you are trying to invalidate my imminently valid case on you by calling it OMGUS. Scummy move there.

@easjo6: Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah...I think Nik very desperately needs to reread.

@Chrono: Your post is not making with the sense. Please start making sense. And catch up to current, since that plan has mostly been dropped.

FoS: ReaperCharlie

Don't like your attitude regarding organizing sleep, and the way you are phrasing "let everyone sleep whenever they want" is basically begging for scum to take over town for half a day. Further, it also has a more subtle bent against town organization. What you are basically saying is that town organization is futile and it shouldn't be done. Which would fall into scummy in my eyes.

HOWEVER

, something just occured to me. Early on in the game, we can have more people sleep. Even if scum control the votes, they can't get away with quicklynching. I don't know how to take advantage of this fact as of yet.

[ReaperCharlie]

FoS: ReaperCharlie

Don't like your attitude regarding organizing sleep, and the way you are phrasing "let everyone sleep whenever they want" is basically begging for scum to take over town for half a day. Further, it also has a more subtle bent against town organization. What you are basically saying is that town organization is futile and it shouldn't be done. Which would fall into scummy in my eyes.

HOWEVER

, something just occured to me. Early on in the game, we can have more people sleep. Even if scum control the votes, they can't get away with quicklynching. I don't know how to take advantage of this fact as of yet.

Not really. I just think it's futile IN THIS CASE. And it's not anti-town to sleep whenever you want. I think town organization is good, especially in games like AiTP. But here it just seems fruitless. Nobody's come up with an even halfway viable solution that doesn't have gaping holes for scum to take advantage of. And since scum can see anything we post, they'll know exactly what to expect and exactly what to plan for.

Unless there's a 95% bulletproof sleep plan that doesn't leave any holes for scum, you can expect me not to follow it, along with half the players. I am definitely not interested in trying to come up with one, but I'd say that has less to do with my caring about the game than it does with my caring about spending my time doing some productive scumhunting. I realize Day 1 is usually a waste of space unless it stretches past the RVS, but this one went straight from RVS into (what I perceive to be) useless setup speculation that will ultimately get us nowhere and waste valuable time. And since days are less than a week long, even moreso.

[VasudeVa]

Maybe we should have a vote on it. While theory is good and all, I'd like to see where people stand on the proposition. If sleep organization or lack thereof favors scum, then we can use the vote to hopefully catch scum.

I vote no because I like to keep scum guessing. The points are valid but I am uncomfortable in giving scum more info than they should be getting. Plus you said it yourself: It doesn't help us catch scum.

Organized Sleep: No help in the scumhunt. We give them info, but we won't have fail-votes/fail-prs.
Not Organized: No help in the scumhunt. We don't give them info, and we won't have fail-votes/fail-prs if the players are not retards.

Although I do agree that everyone should sleep in the day. But I don't think that anyone should announce it(we'll find out anyway).

Also, I am voting for you because I find early set-up speculation as a minor scumtell. I mean, I've done it at scum and I've seen scum do it too. Plus, whatever this discussion is: it is seriously slowing down whatever compulsory town moves we should be doing like you know, wagoning which is what I'm doing to you.

[ReaperCharlie]

Maybe we should have a vote on it. While theory is good and all, I'd like to see where people stand on the proposition. If sleep organization or lack thereof favors scum, then we can use the vote to hopefully catch scum.

Way to defeat your idea before it even left the ground by letting them know your plan.

/me backhands VV

[UncertainKitten]

@Reaper: Well, you see, Vasu is scum, so he has to pretend he's proposing pro town stuff while letting his buddies know not to screw things up. (Hey wait, didn't he accuse ME of doing similar? How interesting)

As for scumhunting,

we've been doing it

. It has not purely been set up spec, and trying to paint it that way quite frankly reads as nervous for some reason. There's not going to be an 95% bulletproof plan that catches scum with sleep. What I, and others, are trying to do,

IS PREVENT THE SLEEP CYCLE FROM SCREWING TOWN

. Once again, if we don't do it in an orderly fashion, later days will end up with scum controlling lynches.

Also, what are the holes in my latest plan again? You know, the one about day sleeping and numbers involved? And such?

And finally...what constructive scum hunting have you done? What scum have you caught again? I don't really see any accusations being thrown out there by you, RC, now do I?

@Vasu: You oversimplify. You also conveniently gloss over the fact that unorganized sleeping raises the chance of handing free lynches to scum. That is, however, a later game concern, but still valid.

@Vasu: That's nice. You have a very special way of looking things that is proving quite incorrect, and therefore, as usual, I'm going to disregard everything you say as...not being worth listening to due to it's continued lack of intelligence as compared to the other ideas that have abounded and actually be constructive.

FURTHER,

every

supposed set up speculator has done a fuckton more scumhunting than you have, and in fact, you are more guilty of your own scumtell than most of us are.

Also, your use of compulsory town moves sounds like you are following a script, which very much feels scummy.

[Nikanor]

easjo: You're not simply scummy for opposing organized sleep cycles. You're scummy for jumping on a terrible wagon, as UK has said.

I'd say that has less to do with my caring about the game than it does with my caring about spending my time doing some productive scumhunting.

Oh really. If you want to scumhunt, you should scumhunt. You're not even voting.

UK: I re-read and I still think we're doing that thing where half the town (well, number of players minus number to lynch) sleeps during the day. That was your plan, and I agree to it. Was there some amendment I missed?