Square Enix Mafia I: Diabolus Erus (GAME OVER)

[AdumbroDeus]

Currently, I don't like Prana, especially because of this:

Considering the Doom counter, it was in town's best interests to work out what to do in regards to that, and THEN move onto scum hunting, more to the point, those who don't care about the fact that, y'know, if we don't play it safe we will lose a player early (and if we do play it safe, we may, potentially, keep her around). So there's your scum hunting. Scum are the only people who wouldn't want to see a player potentially saved from dying. JP has blatantly shown to not care about that by throwing out a vote despite the fact that (at the time) to then vote in any other direction would also mean Devo could likely wind up dead.

You advocate against concentrating on scumhunting, then flip it against players who call you out on it.


Scumhunting is ALWAYS town's first priority, granted we should be talking about how to deal with it as well, but it should not distract from scumhunting, it should be a side-conversation WHILE we scumhunt. This is especially true because we don't even know if we can effectively deal with it unfortunately because we don't know the governing mechanics.




I'm gonna agree that JP's dislike of the pace suggests that it was a stupid pro-town move more the anything else at the moment, but, I'm keeping my eye on him cause I think that could change in a moment, scum likes hiding as dumb after all, and Lord knows I hate useless townies anyway.

FoS: PranaDevil

Hey guys. Sorry about the inactivity but I'm slowly catching up in all my games. Since I'm heavily behind it's time for VC analysis to isolate the scum players.

One post... granted you're a replacement, but you've been here for a few days and there's plenty to talk about to isolate scum, so why don't I see ANY material from you?


Give us some material or get lynched for lurking.


I'll even give a topic, what do you think of JP and Prana?

I have to agree, I don't see why you would go an vote when it seemed to be agreed upon to let your FoS be your vote. It seems very Anti town.

Non-commital (just FoS, no vote), and no reasoning, you suspect Prana, tell me why.

Pretend there's a vote here, because it very well might be soon.

@dramonic

You have raw number of posts, but very little content to back it up, and your targets have been extremely safe.

You don't seem very committed to scumhunting,

FoS: dramonic

@MehPlusRawr

You haven't posted since thursday, what do you think of the current situation?




I really don't like inactives.

[AdumbroDeus]

Unnoficial FoS count

Antifinity 4 (bill1148, KDub, JP, Prana)
PranaDevil 4 (MehPlusRawr, Dram, Adum, Devotress)
Kdub 1 (glork)
Dram 1 (Adum)
thatguy 2 (Wolf, Kdub)
JP 3 (Devotress, Wolf, anti)

Not FoSing: 2 (DTMaster, thatguy00)

No response huh?

HoS: Dramonic

Do some scumhunting.

[AdumbroDeus]

12. DTMaster

DragonsofSummer

killa seven

.....................

I think I will modkill that slot. Counting DoomCow, that's been 4 different players. I'll come to a decision by Thursday. A modkill will not end the day, BTW.

---

Vote Count:

Antifinity: 1

(JPSalazar)

Not Voting:

AdumbroDeus
Antifinity
bill1148
Chronopie (Voteless)
Devotress
dramonic
DTMaster
Glork
KDub
MehPlusRawr
PranaDevil
thatguy00
wolframnhart

Lynch:

7 votes.

Deadline:

June 1st - 3:00 PM EST

FoS/HoS (consider that mine, cause I got two fingers out for pressure) counts are more useful atm cause nobody wants to vote with the doom counter in play.




This game is going so slow, it's frustrating, out of all the people I called out, one response.

[AdumbroDeus]

...


That was just terrible


DT, it should've been OBVIOUS what we were doing, holding off using votes until we had a clear lynch candidate and then we'd all vote at once to avoid losing a potential townie.


Since devoutress doesn't seem particularly scummy I HIGHLY doubt it was a vig that did it, which means that it was one of the scum, and since at this point it seems pretty likely that there are two scum factions, last thing we need is to lose another townie.

unHoS
HOS: DTMaster

*facepalm*
Yes DTM, you did provoke reaction all right. You alsop locked us into a pretty crappy situation. We currently have more or less no choice as to who we want to lynch, we're forced to either vote Prana or that other guy (name is escaping me right now)

Between the two options, my would-be vote rests on Prana, but DTM has scored some nifty points on the scum-ladder.

@Ambro: Oh look, I'm answering you!

Thank you, finally, now how about some long-term scumhunting commitment? Thanks, I'm keeping my eye on you.

[AdumbroDeus]

Considering the flavor and how he was talking about his awesome role... he just might've.


I'm waiting on the mod.

[AdumbroDeus]

Glork
Hey, do you know when I voted I fished out 2 scum. Yeah you know that? Lets murder Prana the already scummy person and his Echo.

Also Ice will be treated as confirmed red scum in my VC analysis. His claim = fake fake fake fake fake, considering the orange and red flips and the lack of other DM claiming (no mirroring to the factions).

@Prana
You said Starbuck claimed after the counter hit 0. Other then the lack of knowing, don't you think She would have noticed this? I'm reading that part now. The numbers are in red. Obviously someone probably wanted to continue playing normally.

But yeah, If I didn't read then I didn't know everyone agreed to Fosing first. I voted. Boo hoo. I agree it's a good system and I would tweak it with HoS instead so we can use FoS now. Me unvoting then revoting will just hurt the system even more Prana. What do you want me to do? Delete my post and go back in time to edit it? I think not. I can't do that.

I can however continue to scum hunt now.

You do realize that scum almost makes up half the town in a 2-3 scum group setting. I based this on a few things:

Red/Orange flip = 2 mafia factions.
3 kills = 2 belonging to mafia, each night. Doom - day kill from night action belonging to remaining scum.
Blind = suggests 3 to a team. Unless Kise allows blinding and killing from the same person, you generally can't use both actions at once.

It's obvious when you look at it.

Finally, I'm saying you should vote if you are confident about it. The FoS system is good. But you have a strong overwhelming read on someone, take the bull by the horns and vote you idiot. You can use FoS if you aren't sure. But you are hiding behind the crowd.

Aka: Vote if you are sure someone is scum. FoS if you are unsure but have multiple people.

@Adumb
You do know that someone dying due to voting =/= obvious when you didn't read it? When I voted, that means I'm voting for someone who's scummy to me.

I also stated that doom = SK most likely due to the targets.

The point is that makes it impossible to scumhunt, since we're treating FoS/HoS like votes (since they're threats of votes), they have teeth, and we can use them as pressure.

Once you vote... you're committed, your pressure tools are gone and you're stuck. We've got over a week till the end of this game day, and you've got no teeth to scumhunt with...


Yeah, sounds like it's also an excuse for no scumhunting.

[AdumbroDeus]

@Prana/Adum

Oooh they are slipping. You wouldn't fuck the town over if you lynch scum. You would be fucking your "town" image of yourselves. You can still vote, Devotress would die, but that gives you added pressure for you to be more right. The fact that you are telling me

Devo death = town being screwed, rather then Devo death = potentially one of 3 scum factions dying = very very very very revealing me.

No, we wouldn't, but you're missing the point, all the other stuff that you normally do with a vote (or threat thereof) in terms of scumhunting. How do we know that toDay isn't gonna extend till June, think of all the scumhunting that could be done... that you can't do now because you can't remove your vote.

I agree, prana is probably scum, but your action was stupid and anti-town from the theory side regardless of who actually is scum, and honestly, trying to defend it makes it look scummier.

That means a scum faction has 2 kills. You realize that you would be imbalancing the game by giving one faction 2 kills?

Dunno about that, as we're illustrating, doom counter is easy to game, the mod probably balanced it with that in mind.

[AdumbroDeus]

WTF!!!!!

DT, what in God's good name are you doing?


Yes we CAN confirm, but the fact that we've got a scum faction using it makes it less likely to correct, and now your vote is stuck unless we wanna kill dev.


Hell yea, we should consider it, but because of the pattern, most likely it's a scum faction's kills, so the doomed person is less likely anyway.



So why would you do it, why why why?

[AdumbroDeus]

EBWOP:

Oh wait, he didn't put my name in properly, hopefully the mod will stick to the rules of formatting laid out in the thread and not count it as a vote, the unvote would still count, but at least we could still lynch anybody cause the doom counter wouldn't have gone down.

[AdumbroDeus]

Before ANYONE votes for DTM, even if we get a lynch majority in FoS, I wanna wait for the mod to confirm that his vote for me counts and his daykill ability.



Beyond that, we're still very suspicious of Anti, since Dev is most likely town, we might wanna forgo killing him today and having him as the kill tomorrow. That begs the question, ARE WE THAT SUSPICIOUS OF ANTI? A townie for scum is generally a more then fair exchange, but with two obvious scum factions (with a reasonable possibility that they're both fully fledged as opposed to one just being a SK) it's worth considering.



Also... Glork, I wouldn't be so sure he's town if Odin works, here's a few villians that used it from FF games:

Maenad (FF4: After Years)
Queen Brahne (FF9)
Luzaf, well sort of Odin is actually the villian (FF11)



So, I wouldn't put him in obvious-town just yet.

[AdumbroDeus]

I totally forgot!

Actually this is how much I think you're scum right now.

Summon Odin: Use it on PradaDevil

Gogogogogoogog!

Assuming the vote doesn't count (dear lord please), then the mod is more likely then not gonna apply the same reason to throw out use of the activated ability, cause he misspelled your name, and therefore it was an invalid target.


That would make our lives considerably better too.

If he (the mod) counts the vote but not the use of the ability, that tells us that formatting rules are very loose and he doesn't have the ability at all.


I really want him to post so we can decide what to do.

[AdumbroDeus]

I dislike that, as a player and mod.


As a mod, because I'm inherently very rules oriented, and see the mod's job as just to enforce, plus it makes it easier. As a player, because I know exactly what to look for, and exactly when I have voted/done something, or when somebody else has.


Not the place for the discussion, eh, but there's little we can do to proceed till the mod calls it.

[AdumbroDeus]

If you're a grammar nazi when it comes to votes and actions you are just asking for your system to be abused :S

Also, you an alt?

1. VOTING: For votes to count, they need to be bolded and in similar format to this --> Vote: Player Name. If you want to cancel your vote, it must also be bolded --> Unvote. You MUST unvote before voting for someone else.
Says simaler format.

And honestly, if I was in a game and a mod required me to type out in entirety: "Vote reallylongplayername248671230692345-8" to the letter/number, without a single typo, I would not want to be in that game.

I know i'm hyperboling, but I don't see any reason a mod should have a problem with "devo = devotress" or a guy saying prada when they ment prana.
What Dramonic said about it inviting abuse of your system too.

I copy/paste, saves confusion, leaves no room for ambiguity, and in general I think everybody should do that. Last think I wanna do is have to call, "I think that was a vote", when somebody wasn't trying to. I honestly prefer using some kind of outer tags outside the bolding to check for extra characters, and if it's misbolded... not a vote.



Nah, I just joined, I've played before IRL though.

[AdumbroDeus]

...


Ok, can we please get the mod to confirm what happened, one way or another, what just happened is ridiculously important and changes the scope of the entire game, scum-hunting prior to that info is crippled, because it gives everything a new prospective.


If anyone wants to continue the formatting topic, I'll make a thread in mafia discussion, and if you're interested in my background, take it to PMs, cause this isn't helping town atm.


The best we can do is wait.

[AdumbroDeus]

At that point I believed you were just being VI townie, and while I'm still plenty suspicious of Prana, your actions have been by and far the most visibly anti-town of anyone. I'm certainly not ruling out the possibility that you're in opposite scum factions, or maybe busing each other.



The "stuck" comment was in regards to the fact that you can scumhunt, but you have no real teeth in it because you can't freely place your vote. If your vote on me counts, unless we decide to effectively lynch Dev (who is probably one of the least scummy people atm, AND the counter was placed on her by a scum faction most likely makes it a poor choice).


As far as if we were "voting if we were sure", then we can't optimize our votes to decide whether the person with the doom counter lives or dies, because if everyone votes, then they die for sure, and we certainly won't get to lynch before Dev dies.



My comments on Anti are deciding whether we think he's scummy enough to warrant skipping out on killing you today, or whether we should just kill you in spite of the fact that Dev (again, a person who hasn't been scummy at all) will die.



Also, that was Glork's count, it wasn't official.

[AdumbroDeus]

EBWOP: Was that an official count?


I'm guessing now it was, and since the counter hasn't been ticked, ok, things are looking up.

[AdumbroDeus]

Editted in mod color?


Ok, so whatever he was trying to do failed, or he was lying about it.


Now that we know the doom counter didn't get ticked, and we know that DTM just made the scummiest action... well I'm no longer amused.


I definately think he should be lynched toDay.

[AdumbroDeus]

Except you were completely reckless in how you carried it out, not to mention the "Odin incident" where the mod let on you had no such ability.


Not to mention the fact that it won't actually change our strategy one bit since it only free 1 vote at a time, heck we could've let scum find that out for us and reveal theselves in the process, and you took an extreme risk in actually getting the information.


It was a stupid and scummy tactic, and if you're somehow not scum, you'll frankly earn such an epic VI label through your actions that I doubt anyone will care because of the damage you did and could've done.

Quite frankly, I'm considering myself insane for even considering the possibility that you're not scum atm.

[AdumbroDeus]

No, Prana. It's one thing to say "I dare them to attack me."

It's an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THING to say,

after a night in which there was one less kill

, "I bet there was one less kill because the scums tried to kill me." That goes from "false breadcrumb" to flat out LYING TO THE TOWN ABOUT YOUR ROLE.




You are NOT going to get out of this alive. You are dead.

Attaboy.
We've reached a concensus (and anyone who goes against lynching an outed liar can go play in the electric fence or something)

Vote: Prana

7

*facepalm*


After all the conversation we had... couldn't that teach you to be patient? We don't all vote until FoS lynch is completed, just because Glork said prana deserves death doesn't mean we should actually act on it till we've got a consensus.


Prana's right, this is ridiculously scummy, you're definitely on my targets list, you need to die, though you're probably not on the same scum side as prana (for obvious reasons).


That means we've got 3 people who really just need to die. Hopefully one of those nightkills is actually a vig who's willing to kill one of them.

Glork, I already said I was trying to draw the scum to attack me.

But if you want to know every part of my flavour, fine, but it means that if scum try and go for me they'll pick the one that would get through.

I'm immune to any, and all, elemental attacks. (Which I take to mean if someone tried frying my with, for instance, lightning, it wouldn't do anything and thus would make me bulletproof to all elemental based scum).

But of course, any attempt at hoping scum do that is right out the window now, ta muchly Glork.

THERE IS NO FLAVOR IN THE KUJATA SUMMON WHICH MAKES YOUR ROLE IMMUNE TO ELEMENTAL ATTACKS. YOU ARE STILL LYING SCUM.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Kujata

Don't wanna be TOO hasty with that opinion, in the game enemies resistant, immune, or absorbing one of Kujata's elements had a drastic effect on his damage output, I don't see how it's impossible that it got reversed in order to actually be useful since that establishes Kujata as a multi-elemental summon.


Not saying that Prana isn't acting ridiculously scummy and shouldn't be lynched ASAP, but just wanted to point it out.

[AdumbroDeus]

SO you wanna lynch him ASAP, but you're not even going to FoS him? For one thing, he is obvscum. For the other, we have to vote at some point and my vote won't be moving.

No need for patience when the air around Prana reeks of BS. I swear to god I will hound down anyone who actually believes his crap.

@DTM: Didn't say we all had one <<

I think my reasoning is obvious here, we as a town had a very obvious decision to make between lynching prana and lynching DTM.


With Prana being most likely scum, and DTM being a toss up between an extremely dangerous village idiot and obvious scum, town deserved the right to make that choice, and frankly the reason Prana doesn't have a HoS on him was because I preferred lynching DTM first.


Also, I believe I still do have a FoS on prana, I put it on first post I made in the thread and I was moving my HoS around to represent my vote.


You've got a very itchy trigger finger Dram, to the point that it seems scummy. Forcing us into a single choice even though we have two perfectly viable ones, I don't like it.



Regardless, I'm still fine with the prana lynch.

UnHoS
Hos: PranaDevil

As soon as we have enough for a FoS/HoS lynch, I'll push my vote to prana, assuming we don't collectively decide that we wanna lynch DTM anyway, perhaps because he overloads on being the village idiot... again.

[AdumbroDeus]

EBWOP:


This was what the quote was supposed to be, it got attributed to me because I removed my quote and accidentally didn't remove the tag.

SO you wanna lynch him ASAP, but you're not even going to FoS him? For one thing, he is obvscum. For the other, we have to vote at some point and my vote won't be moving.

No need for patience when the air around Prana reeks of BS. I swear to god I will hound down anyone who actually believes his crap.

@DTM: Didn't say we all had one <<

[AdumbroDeus]

vote Prana

this will also confirm my hypthosis on the doom counter. Gonna wait for that red text

Dunno what you're trying to pull but, where's your unvote?

[AdumbroDeus]

.Ok, we're at lynch status based on FoS and votes.

Vote: PranaDevil

Puts Prana at l-1 because of the lack of unvote.

1

[AdumbroDeus]

DTM, yes it is required, I just double-checked.

[AdumbroDeus]

@mod

Why does it say lynch: 7, we have 14 alive, it should take 8 to have a majority (even if one is voteless).

[AdumbroDeus]

I'd assume that being voteless would be treated the same as being a double-voter, and doesn't change the total required for the majority.

[AdumbroDeus]

The two scummiest players are town? Really...

I'm blind again, which is also a "mitigate obvioustown players" play.


I want to know why the Vig didn't listen to me and kill KDub like I asked.

FoS: KDub

Two easy possibilities.

1. There is no vig.

2. The vig disagreed and thought DTM was a better target. Based on DTM's ridiculous play yesterday, I would tend to agree.





I hate that I was ignored yesterday, I did point out that Kjuta's flavor certainly had that possibility.


Well, at least we know elemental attributes aren't considered a role... though I doubt it will help, I don't think anyone but prana would think of that as vanilla.






HoS: Dram


I don't like how you pushed us into that vote, again we had two legit targets yesterday, we should've taken our time with that decision.


Even though neither of them actually were mafia.


Why?

[AdumbroDeus]

I hate that I was ignored yesterday, I did point out that Kjuta's flavor certainly had that possibility.

I don't really like this post. It sounds like you are trying to get town credit that really isn't deserved. Yes, you pointed out that the flavor was possible, but in the same post, you followed that up with:

Not saying that Prana isn't acting ridiculously scummy and shouldn't be lynched ASAP, but just wanted to point it out.

So if you wanted him lynched regardless of the flavor, you can't complain about people ignoring your pointing out the possibility that the flavor was true.

FoS: Adumbro

As I explained in the Inn my suspicions of DMT were stronger, hence I preferred him lynched in general.


The point of that post was:

"Why are you guys flying off the handle? Yeah, she's scummy, but the flavor which was the reason you guys are flying off the handle could be true, so we need to think about this calmly and rationally and get a full FoS vote BEFORE we start voting".


I suspected Prana before that, I said as much before, and that incident did not change my opinions in regards to Prana, nothing in my post suggests otherwise.



The doom counter ridiculously punishes impulse voting, when we impulse vote, scum wins, what's so difficult about that to understand?

Adum, you are starting to bore me. Your "case", if it can even be called that, holds no weight when it was by town consensus agreed that Prana's claim was crap.

Are you familiar with the principle of LAL?

I generally agree, but my concern was that you shoved it in our face.


While I certainly am annoyed that this got done before I got a chance to say, "the flavor fits", the major issue is that you FORCED town to lynch prana before town could fully decide, going against our established strategy.

Especially since the other candidate was a lier too.

Adum, I think it was discussed rather thoroughly during the day, yesterday that is, I guess Dram did kind of shove us into it, I didn't get a chance to vote for Prana but I was willing to do it nonetheless.

Who are you looking at as far as scum goes, Adum? We can discuss it through the day phase today.

The thing is, we had two good candidates, and while Glork had made his decision, the rest of town had not.


We have going against an established plan by the entire town in order to set town on an impulse lynch choice. Isn't that what scum's entire objective is?


I think Dram is scum.
MehPlusRawr seems to be doing just enough to avoid attention, slight scum read.
Glork changed from obvious town to mostly town because he went along with Dram's lynch push.
Kdub I'm unsure of, could go either way.
Bill1148 I get a slight town read atm, mostly because he stuck with the plan.



Note: I'm on V/LA until I get my laptop cord back.


Oh and congrats JP.

[AdumbroDeus]

Adumbro:
I don't have a problem with your original post yesterday about Prana's flavor. I have a problem with your post today complaining about people ignoring you. It doesn't really matter whether the lynch was rushed or whether we had gotten a full FoS count against Prana before lynching. The point is that your post today implies that you felt your comment about Prana's flavor had a chance of averting a mislynch yesterday (otherwise why would you "hate" that you were ignored?), which I do not think is true at all. Again, it looks like you are trying to get town credit after the fact, even though you wanted the lynch to go through "ASAP".

I could get behind a Meh lynch, but I want to think through the setup a bit more. A lot of different ideas are floating through my head, and I'd like to see some more discussion today first.

Mod: Prod wolf and thatguy please

I didn't expect to avert a mislynch, I was trying to use it as a point to illustrate why we should wait for a full FoS lynch before actually lynching somebody and the fact that we didn't get to fully explore Prana's claim was just one example. We're INCREDIBLY lucky that didn't end up worse then it did.


So credit? No. Cautionary tale, HELL ****ing YES!



Speaking of which... we're doing it again, thank God it's pretty obvious MPR is scum. However we still need to be cautious with the lynch cause MPR is trying to active the doom counter.


Full FoS lynch, then wait till everyone is on, then do it.

[AdumbroDeus]

unHoS

HoS: MehPlusRawr

[AdumbroDeus]

unHoS

HoS: MehPlusRawr

Forgot the bold.

I'm on right now, I'll be refreshing the thread like once every 5 minutes for about an hour, got a vote for Meh on my clipboard, If I can get two others, I'm done, let's save devotress.

[AdumbroDeus]

Wait... damnit Glork.


I'll explain what made me say that during twilight or at the inn.

[AdumbroDeus]

*Confirming I'm still on, same pattern, could I please get two other people?

[AdumbroDeus]

That's 2, how long can you stay on thatguy?

[AdumbroDeus]

I'm on right now. I apologize I don't always have the time to be on this site, as it usually fills my head with confuzzles trying to get caught up and whatnot.

I try to do what I can, meh. What can I say? If the least I can do is cc and call meh on his bullshit, then I've atleast done something worthwhile.

Basically I'm hoping we can get somebody else and vote as a block to lynch this ****er.


I hate to end a day this early, but gradually shifting votes onto meh isn't gonna work, and and if we try to pull this off later, meh will get warning so same issue.


So, give me a timeframe, that you'll stick around and refresh, so if somebody else gets on, we can do this.

---

Vote Count:

MehPlusRawr: 4

(thatguy00, Chronopie, Devotress, bill1148)

Devotress: 1

(MehPlusRawr)

Not Voting:

AdumbroDeus
Antifinity
dramonic
Glork
JPSalazar
KDub
wolframnhart

Lynch:

7 votes.

Deadline:

June 15th - 9:00 PM EST

[AdumbroDeus]

Oh, really?


*double-checks*


Damnit, back to square one. I need two other people on, and I need the votes as a block in order to successfully lynch meh without tripping the counter.

[AdumbroDeus]

Basically, we get 3 people online at the same time, and all vote for meh.


Hopefully, if we do it close enough, we'll get in the votes before he can revote, thus we save devotress.

[AdumbroDeus]

I can vote too, we just need 1 more person who can vote, and a lot of luck....

[AdumbroDeus]

Argh, I'm out, on limited access right now, hopefully I'll be back on late tonight, JP try to hold out and see if you can get two others to lynch with you.


Good luck.

[AdumbroDeus]

Hmm... I just got Cursed apparently.

Hope that isn't the doom...

If you were Doomed, there'd be a little red "10" in Kise's first post just like all the other Day Phases. I'd like you to elaborate on this "curse," actually.

And I take it you protected Glork last night, based on your previous comment?

That's odd actually...


That means you were roleblocked.


Where the **** is the second kill tonight?


Unless Kdub was the intended killer and his kill got outprioritized.


But then where's the doom? I highly doubt it just vanished.




As for bill, we down for a mass-claim? If he's right, we should have 2 earth, a fire, a water, and a lightning left.

[AdumbroDeus]

Actually, wondering if thatguy is lich atm, he's been roleblocked and doom mysteriously vanished, but we don't have a lich kill, but why didn't the real doctor claim?

---

Vote Count:

----

Not Voting:

AdumbroDeus
Antifinity
bill1148
Chronopie
dramonic
Glork
JPSalazar
Midnight's Sorrow
thatguy00

Lynch:

5 votes.

Deadline:

June 25th - 5:00 PM EST

[AdumbroDeus]

He seemed a bit unsure of what that entailed, maybe he simply made a mistake.


Dunno how the protections happened then though.



Also, the sudden change has me wierded out with Bill, it's possible he's scum trying to distract from lich (himself), but he might be right.


But there's a good chance he's right.


I support a mass roleclaim, if we can peg what we're looking for, then we should go for the other scum team. I suggest avoiding earth scum cause we don't know which team he is, but I'm certainly not discounting the possibility of actual elemental townies... yet.

[AdumbroDeus]

@chrono, then where the **** is the roleblocking coming from? With kdub being roleblocked, that meant there had to be opposing scum, and the pattern doesn't match. Unless it's an indie, in which cause I have no clue what his win condition would be.

[AdumbroDeus]

Hmmm, I wanna see the votecount on this.


I have a sneaking suspicion that we've got 2 scum teams essentially fighting it out right now.


Why did Bill come in with this grand theory today? What if he dropped both the NK and the doom because he realized, if he picked wrong, other scum team would win. Then he comes in attempting to lead town.


Just a theory mind you, but it's certainly possible.


If Bill comes up with 0 votes OR 2 votes (cause we're missing a fire and an earth), I think they're both scum. If it's two, that makes it easy, we pick JP, if not, it's a toss-up, and we auto-lose if we pick wrong.

[AdumbroDeus]

To continue the mass-claim, I'm Ingus from FF3, a vanilla townie.

[AdumbroDeus]

Also, gonna have VERY limited access this weekend, sorry folks.

[AdumbroDeus]

Actually, there seem to be too many anti-town abilities for there to be just two scums left.

I need to think about this for a while.

Question, why?


A role-blocking SK and a dooming mafia, seems to make sense.



My main concern is, "what if we're wrong?", cause if bill is right, it is lylo atm.

[AdumbroDeus]

Doom being a Lich ability would still create the problem of multiple kills in one group, as there were two nights with both Electrocution and Doom.

Roleblocking SK isn't completely unreasonable, except I don't think it fits in with the slate of abilities over the course of the game.

I'm a little preoccupied, so I don't have time for a complete night action analysis. Plus, any such analysis is moot until Anti claims. Once we have all claims and actions in, I'll compile a COMPLETE list of all claims, known and unknown actions (with targets, where applicable), and I'll take a look at what loose ends we need to tie up.


At any rate, I think we have to assume that today is LyLo. Worst-case scenario, it is Lich + SK left, and we're not completely fucked. But if we assume Lich + SK and there turns out to be a second mafia, we could easily lose today.

Quick thoughts, what if doom is balanced like an ability instead of a kill?

We seem to have a lot of strong pro-town abilities, though my concern there is "what's his kill flavor?".



Still, if it's another mafia we're dealing with, there is no vig. Lynching our claimed vig might be the safest move. Chrono claimed to be the drowning vig, right? Killing him seems like a pretty safe move, if he flips scum, we're dealing with 2 mafias.


If he flips town and there's a SK on the loose though, it's still a strong disadvantage.



If he flips indie, we laugh, we dance, we party, and we've got only 1 scum left.


Thoughts?

[AdumbroDeus]

While that would be nice, we have no way of knowing which one we're getting, and if you're right, we pick the wrong mafia, we're sunk.



If we kill chrono, we can confirm one way or another, since it's impossible that it occurred with him being a vig, and he'd HAVE to be on the other scum team for it to work, too many teamkills.

[AdumbroDeus]

Agreed with midnight, with doom balanced as a vote manipulation ability as opposed to a kill, it makes sense. Missing kills could be from protects or both kills being directed at the same person.


Still, flipping Chrono is a safer option, if it's SK we have 2 scum left with

Upon doing some heavy re-reading, dramonic is actually a decent candidate for Barbariccia.

why am I not surprised <<

If you didn't realize it already, it should've been obvious. If we've got a second elemental fiend group... we've only got a limited number of people left, and everyone who claimed elemental is a nice suspect.


Not to mention that you haven't exactly had the cleanest record.


If we flip chrono and he's scum, I think it's pretty safe to say that JP and you need to die ASAP.

While that would be nice, we have no way of knowing which one we're getting, and if you're right, we pick the wrong mafia, we're sunk.



If we kill chrono, we can confirm one way or another, since it's impossible that it occurred with him being a vig, and he'd HAVE to be on the other scum team for it to work, too many teamkills.

A few things:

a) There is no guarantee that Lich exists; it's still possible that there are two scum groups of 3, which would mean one scum group has already been eliminated.

b) If JP is really Lich, he'd likely be forced to reveal it at -1 or -2 (since he'd lose if lynched). Bascially, it would be a "temporary" save for him, since our top priority at this point is to kill the un-touched second scum and lynching Lich results in Town's loss.

c) If JP isn't Lich but is in fact Scarmiglione, it would be pretty dumb for him to fake-claim being Lich. Killing Lich (if he exists) right now is second-scum's top priority, and if/when they kll him, it's auto-lynch for Scarmiglione (the likely roleblocker).

Doesn't matter, given the theme of the game, the possibility, no, the strong probability exists that lich completes the set, and the large size of the game.


Furthermore, if we're deciding that a vig who's actions have consistently been pro-town is lying for the purposes of safety (in other words, presuming this is lylo) we sure as hell better pick the safest option.


We can't afford picking the wrong earth elemental (and lord help us all if there's a simple townie that's earth elemental).


This hinges on Chrono, Chrono is the only person that's alignment is completely and solely dependent on whether or not there are two full scum factions. If we're lynching for safety, we better sure as hell lynch him.

Furthermore, if you're right, but picked the wrong earth elemental, second scum team will kill him when we reach l-[remaining scum total here].



Even after pushing that this is lylo, why are you so intent on forcing an unsafe lynch?


Is it possibly because you can't NK him?


Honestly, that's the best explanation for going for somebody other then the one who best fits your claims, if you were solely pro-town, going for scarm would be too dangerous.


Especially after that fiasco where your vote essentially killed devotress (after cautioning people about careless voting the day before).


After being pretty much a lurker and now attempting to take charge of the town.






So, now the question is, do we kill him or chrono? I prefer we play it safe and kill chrono, because if we're wrong, we can still win, whereas if we're wrong with 2 complete scum teams, we can't.

[AdumbroDeus]

ebwop:

"Still, flipping Chrono is a safer option, if it's SK we have 2 scum left with" was supposed to be, "Still, flipping Chrono is a safer option, if it's SK we have 2 scum left with a reasonable amount of time to find and eliminate them".

[AdumbroDeus]

Exactly, if you ARE a vig, there is only one full scum team.

But unfortunately, if you are a vig, you're the only person that knows that for sure.


Even while I agree that your situation is most likely, the possibility of this being lylo is an overwhelming concern.


Also, 99.999% sure bill is lich, and I THINK he believes there's a second full scumgroup, his sudden change in philosophy is too odd (both now, and voting philosophies yesterday), as is his pushing of the most unsafe elemental to lynch out of the possibilities.

[AdumbroDeus]

I'm lich?

OMGUS much bill?


Yet at the same time, you switch to my recommended safe choice.




Oh, and checking previous posts, I noticed that elemental effects only show up when a lynch occurs, didn't realize that in my post assuming it that bill would register as having an elemental effect in play, check out the vote totals after dram voted for iecerint day1, and then check his lynch totals day 2, the fact that elements came into play was obvious, but didn't show until the lynch.

[AdumbroDeus]

Just to clarify, what I meant by "I'm lich?" was, "I'm a top choice for lich?"


With no real reasoning for any of his choices mind you.



As far as Ifrit, I think it's pretty obvious what happened.

bv310 - Marilith (Mafia Goon) - Drowned Night 3

If "ifrit" is still hanging around, unless anti claims ifrit, I think it's pretty obvious that Marilith was planning on claiming ifrit, but our "vig" got her first.

[AdumbroDeus]

*crosses fingers that Chrono flips vig*


I'm glad that we're taking my advice about the safest route and chrono is looking scummier and scummier anyway.

[AdumbroDeus]

Just to clarify, what I meant by "I'm lich?" was, "I'm a top choice for lich?"

The list was in no particular order.

Yet at the same time, you switch to my recommended safe choice.

What are you talking about? Be specific, because I have said more than once that Chrono is the safest and he's the one I'm voting for.

I made your initial list which was only two people, with basically no reasoning.



NOW you're voting for Chrono, but you were saying you preferred JP while admitting that fact, not wiggling out of it that easily.

[AdumbroDeus]

Could we get a votecount?



As far as the questions:


Reduced to nothingness: seems non-elemental, but I remember the typhoon summon having similar flavor (though it was technically multi-elemental), if it's not non-elemental, I think it's air. If we've got a SK on the loose then probably non-elemental, if we've got another elemental scum-group set, almost definitely air.


Doom: Again, seems too unreliable to be a kill in and of itself, probably balanced as a vote manipulator.

[AdumbroDeus]

NOW you're voting for Chrono, but you were saying you preferred JP while admitting that fact, not wiggling out of it that easily.

Dear Adumbo,

Please point to the specific post where I said "I prefer to lynch JP."

Your dearest and most concerned friend,
Bill

Right here.

Doom being a Lich ability would still create the problem of multiple kills in one group, as there were two nights with both Electrocution and Doom.

Roleblocking SK isn't completely unreasonable, except I don't think it fits in with the slate of abilities over the course of the game.

I'm a little preoccupied, so I don't have time for a complete night action analysis. Plus, any such analysis is moot until Anti claims. Once we have all claims and actions in, I'll compile a COMPLETE list of all claims, known and unknown actions (with targets, where applicable), and I'll take a look at what loose ends we need to tie up.


At any rate, I think we have to assume that today is LyLo. Worst-case scenario, it is Lich + SK left, and we're not completely fucked. But if we assume Lich + SK and there turns out to be a second mafia, we could easily lose today.

Quick thoughts, what if doom is balanced like an ability instead of a kill?

We seem to have a lot of strong pro-town abilities, though my concern there is "what's his kill flavor?".



Still, if it's another mafia we're dealing with, there is no vig. Lynching our claimed vig might be the safest move. Chrono claimed to be the drowning vig, right? Killing him seems like a pretty safe move, if he flips scum, we're dealing with 2 mafias.


If he flips town and there's a SK on the loose though, it's still a strong disadvantage.



If he flips indie, we laugh, we dance, we party, and we've got only 1 scum left.


Thoughts?

Lynching Chrono

is

the safest move. If he's really a Vig, there there is likely no second scum, but an SK.

That said, I'd much prefer to get rid of our Doomer or our brown cloaked fellow ASAP (Doom not so much, since it is pretty useless at this point) And Chrono would fit into neither category, I just think he's a scum member who's been submitting kills.

After I point out Chrono is the safest move, you wanna go after lich/scarm.


And just so you can't say that you were intending to go for somebody else...

I'd rather not quote my pm, but I'm pretty sure it said that like absorbs like, and raises vote threshold i.e negation, whereas voting for an element I had dominance against (fire) is "super effective" to quote pokemon.

Then your vote counts double against Fire, and counts nothing against Water, correct?

3. JPSalazar (Galuf Baldesian [commuter] = Scarmiglione/Lich)
8. Glork
10. Chronopie (claimed Leviathan [Vig] - highly doubtful = Cagnazzo)
11. Antifinity
13. thatguy00 (Ceodore Harvey [doctor])
16. bill1148 (Regent Cid from FF9 [vanilla])
17. dramonic (Ramuh [lightning based])
19. AdumbroDeus
21. Midnight's Sorrow (Rikken from FF12 [vanilla])

Even if you preferred smoking out scarm, it's just as unsafe, so the basic concept applies.

[AdumbroDeus]

and If you truly are so insistent that we aren't lynching Bill today. vote

No Lynch

with me, protect Bill, and we'll know once and for all. Assuming that your protection actually would kill Lich. Is that property of your protection (undead-killing) certain, or conjecture?

And what if Bill is part of the scumgroup we've been killing off and there IS another?


If we kill him off, we've lost.

[AdumbroDeus]

NOW you're voting for Chrono, but you were saying you preferred JP while admitting that fact, not wiggling out of it that easily.

Dear Adumbo,

Please point to the specific post where I said "I prefer to lynch JP."

Your dearest and most concerned friend,
Bill

Right here.

Doom being a Lich ability would still create the problem of multiple kills in one group, as there were two nights with both Electrocution and Doom.

Roleblocking SK isn't completely unreasonable, except I don't think it fits in with the slate of abilities over the course of the game.

I'm a little preoccupied, so I don't have time for a complete night action analysis. Plus, any such analysis is moot until Anti claims. Once we have all claims and actions in, I'll compile a COMPLETE list of all claims, known and unknown actions (with targets, where applicable), and I'll take a look at what loose ends we need to tie up.


At any rate, I think we have to assume that today is LyLo. Worst-case scenario, it is Lich + SK left, and we're not completely fucked. But if we assume Lich + SK and there turns out to be a second mafia, we could easily lose today.

Quick thoughts, what if doom is balanced like an ability instead of a kill?

We seem to have a lot of strong pro-town abilities, though my concern there is "what's his kill flavor?".



Still, if it's another mafia we're dealing with, there is no vig. Lynching our claimed vig might be the safest move. Chrono claimed to be the drowning vig, right? Killing him seems like a pretty safe move, if he flips scum, we're dealing with 2 mafias.


If he flips town and there's a SK on the loose though, it's still a strong disadvantage.



If he flips indie, we laugh, we dance, we party, and we've got only 1 scum left.


Thoughts?

Lynching Chrono

is

the safest move. If he's really a Vig, there there is likely no second scum, but an SK.

That said, I'd much prefer to get rid of our Doomer or our brown cloaked fellow ASAP (Doom not so much, since it is pretty useless at this point) And Chrono would fit into neither category, I just think he's a scum member who's been submitting kills.

Dear Chrono,

Please point to where the name

JP

appears in this post.

Thanks,
Bill

Chrono?


As I said before, you previous equated scarm/lich with JP, in that post you said you'd prefer to take out scarm/lich.

If x=y y=x, the point is that in that post you said you'd prefer to go after the earth elemental scum even while Chrono was the safe choice.


No, you are scum.


And judging by the last few sets of posts, Chrono is scum desperately trying to save himself.



Also, since he's insisting on this point so much, I think it's safe to say we're dealing with an elemental scum faction if he flips scum.

[AdumbroDeus]

Seperating this out so it's visable.







Chrono has shown himself to almost definitely be scum, and he seems to be pressing the point that remaining scum isn't elemental. I'd say that suggests that they are if he flips scum.





As far as Kise, maybe he isn't stupid enough, or maybe he's intent on us believing he isn't stupid enough and attempting to mindgame us.

[AdumbroDeus]

I guess I was unclear, what I meant was that Kise might have put all the scum as elemental knowing full well we wouldn't believe that he'd be stupid enough to put all the elementals as scum. So we really can't be sure.


Well, actually, we've got a death miller right, so at least one town-aligned elemental, being mostly elemental with a trick or two sounds viable (thank God he didn't survive till lylo).

[AdumbroDeus]

Also, why would chrono say "sorry kise".


If it's not true that all the elementals remaining are scum then why would he be apologizing to the mod, if he's not scum, then that means it's wrong so he wouldn't have to apologize.

[AdumbroDeus]

As I said before, you previous equated scarm/lich with JP, in that post you said you'd prefer to take out scarm/lich.

If x=y y=x, the point is that in that post you said you'd prefer to go after the earth elemental scum even while Chrono was the safe choice.

Now you're just making sh!t up.

You didn't notice the post that I quoted that you made right before that post saying that JP was scarm or lich?


The quote that you conveniently left out of your quote of my post?

3. JPSalazar (Galuf Baldesian [commuter] = Scarmiglione/Lich)
8. Glork (Rosa from FF4 [doctor])
10. Chronopie (claimed Leviathan [Vig] - highly doubtful = Cagnazzo)
11. Antifinity
13. thatguy00 (Ceodore Harvey [doctor])
16. bill1148 (Regent Cid from FF9 [vanilla])
17. dramonic (Ramuh [lightning based])
19. AdumbroDeus (Ingus from FF3 [vanilla])
21. Midnight's Sorrow (Rikken from FF12 [vanilla])

And regardless, you still missed the point that going after an earth elemental would not confirm your POV was correct, and if you were correct, we could still kill the wrong scum team and die anyway.

You preferring the earth elemental was the issue with being scummy, but you denying that you had suggested that JP was scarm/lich the last post you made before you said you'd prefer a scarm/lich lynch just makes it worse.


Congrats, you're obvious-scum.

[AdumbroDeus]

Also, it's pretty obvious that the scumgroup is {Chrono, JP, Dumbro, Dram} given the triplegangbang on Bill, even though I've pointed out a billion times over that if Bill is Lich, he

SHOULD NOT BE LYNCHED TODAY

.


Protip, guys: Tunnel-visioning on outing the last scum in the mostly-dead scumgroup isn't good town play. The ONLY town play today is to lynch someone from the FULL scumgroup.




So I have three questions that I demand Chrono, Dram, and Dumbro each answer in each of their next posts:

1) WHY HAVEN'T YOU BOTHERED TO LOOK FOR SCUM OUTSIDE OF BILL, ESPECIALLY IF YOU THINK BILL IS LICH?
2) WHICH FOUR PLAYERS DO YOU THINK ARE IN THE SECOND SCUMGROUP, AND WHY?
3) WHO DO YOU WANT TO LYNCH TODAY, AND WHY?

WTF?!


I already said that Chrono should be lynched tonight.

For fuck's sake I was leading the charge to get him lynched.




I think it's pretty obvious who the second scum group is after Chrono's impassioned defense that the second mafia could not be elemental, which I SAID BEFORE.



If Chrono flips scum (as in, 4 FF4 fiends), then dram and JP are the obvious choices, especially considering that dram's been on my radar throughout the game for his passivity.



The point is, at this point, Bill is positively identified as first scumgroup, I NEVER SUGGESTED he needs to be lynched toDay, in fact just the opposite. Just so we know so he doesn't screw us later.


Tunneling at it's best Glork.

[AdumbroDeus]

Now that I'm finished repeating stuff that I said like 50 times before...

@Glork

, why did you ignore my previous statements on the other scumgroup/who we should lynch toDay?

Especially who we should lynch toDay, considering I was the person who suggested it first, and my questioning of bill revolved primarily around why he wasn't pushing to lynch chrono since Chrono was the obvious safest lynch choice. How could you ignore that seriously?

[AdumbroDeus]

Now that I'm finished repeating stuff that I said like 50 times before...

@Glork

, why did you ignore my previous statements on the other scumgroup/who we should lynch toDay?

Especially who we should lynch toDay, considering I was the person who suggested it first, and my questioning of bill revolved primarily around why he wasn't pushing to lynch chrono since Chrono was the obvious safest lynch choice. How could you ignore that seriously?

No, you're right, I am completely consumed by the fact that Chrono is trying to autowin today by pushing bullshit lynches.

The triple combined pressure on Bill the last page looked like you were hoping someone would ride the wave onto voting him, so the groupoffour could off him.

Who was the third though, JP was riding him earlier, and chrono to a degree, but it was just me pressuring him that page, dram just jumped on at the last moment (scum buddying?).


I don't think anyone's stupid enough to toss a vote in, Chrono's been scummy enough now that anyone following the game knows it's lylo.

Regardless, I'm looking to encourage cross kills, and now that he's obvious lich, he's become the number 1 target for the opposing scum group since he's the most dangerous player that they can kill with any reliability.

erm...
obv-lich, lynch him.

Heh? Didn't you say the opposite last post?

[AdumbroDeus]

Also, I'm gonna say it again, if Chrono flips Cagnazzo, we have two identified elemental fiends from FF4 Scarmiglione (because of the cursed song), and as I said before, reduced to nothing fits Barbarriccia's flavor.


Therefore, if so, I'd suggest killing all identified elementals immediately (not like they haven't been scummy). But we're still missing rubricant.



If people agree with me on this point, I have an idea on how we might utilize this to our advantage.

[AdumbroDeus]

Ok... so why would you reveal that?


Let's lynch him to be sure.

[AdumbroDeus]

DON'T LYNCH HIM YET!


I wanna see what the rest of town thinks of my analysis of the remaining scum if he flips Carn.



Chrono, that doesn't make sense, we're still missing an anti-town roleblocker. I think you're lying, but to what end? We have no reason not to lynch you to test it out.

Is this the "cute kitten defense" 2.0? Why's this game a magnet for stupid defenses?

[AdumbroDeus]

I don't believe your an SK, and I don't think anyone else will buy it either.


You're right, 2 scum teams plus an SK (especially an unlynchable one one) is way too unbalanced, and having another SK (who's a roleblocker) brings up issues of missing kills. Hell, a vig does.


No, it makes a ton more sense if you're a member of another scum faction and this unlynchable crap is another "cute kitten defense".



Also, generally SK kills are out-prioritized by kills from any other faction. So, if our lynch fails, you die tonight anyway.





Chrono, the reason why I said it's the "cute kitten defense" is because it's completely and utterly stupid and unbelievable, just like MPR pretending to be a kitten. It simply doesn't make sense in terms of night actions.



I assume you're taking this tact to make it impossible for us to get useful info from you, so I'm done with this conversation.

[AdumbroDeus]

Dramonic was all over Bill, too, going on about how he is 'obvscum.'

At the end he did, when I went against Bill, nobody else really was at the time, Chrono wasn't really commenting on it atm cause he was occupied with convincing us that it was just lich and an SK, and JP backed off a long time ago.



Eh, not important atm, misunderstanding done, so care to respond to my question, if Chrono flips the water archfiend from FF4, since we've already had evidence of scarm (the cursed song), all the claimed elementals are on a scumteam? Their actions haven't exactly been protown overal anyway.


The only one we're missing in Rubricant in that case.

[AdumbroDeus]

Why is midnight falling for chrono's obvious attempts to distract from scumhunting? It's basically equivalent to MPR's cute kitten claim, so all continuing this convo serves to accomplish is distracting from scumhunting.



I don't like this one bit, keeping my eye on midnight.

[AdumbroDeus]

...


Errr no, stop putting words in MY mouth, I didn't say you said this convo is distracting from scumhunting, I said this CONVO is obviously distracting from scumhunting.


I already established why it's pretty much impossible for this to be true, so why are you still responding since you certainly don't seem to be bringing up a new point, and all this is serving at the moment is burying useful information.



Let me ask you this, what do you hope to achieve by continuing to pressure his cute kitten defense? It's pretty obvious that he's ignoring all points as to why his claim is ridiculous at the moment, so I don't see him giving out any additional information, so what are you hoping to achieve by going after him as opposed to other potential scum targets?

[AdumbroDeus]

Excuse me, I meant "you or he said", as in "I didn't say you or he said this convo is distracting from scumhunting".




Oh, I also fail to see how I put words in anyone's mouth.

[AdumbroDeus]

Ok, yes you want Chrono lynched, and chrono is gonna get lynched today, unless everyone decides to risk it and go after the roleblocker (which I'm against).


But my question stands, what are you hoping to get from this conversation with chrono, keeping in mind that he's brickwalling and is toDay's obvious lynch?

[AdumbroDeus]

So... basically you got into a useless conversation for no functional reason? When you could've gone after other possible scum and when his claim is most likely bullshit anyway?



As for why not vote, I don't think it's time to lynch him yet, I'd like some answers first.


Do something useful, respond to this:

if Chrono flips the water archfiend from FF4, since we've already had evidence of scarm (the cursed song), all the claimed elementals are on a scumteam? Their actions haven't exactly been protown overal anyway.


The only one we're missing in Rubricant in that case.

[AdumbroDeus]

EBWOP: by "other possible scum", I mean "people who are possibly also scum" as opposed to "he's possibly scum and other people could be scum too".



Just because somebody is obvious scum doesn't mean you need to devote all your attention to them, even if they're obviously the lynch of the day, we still need to figure out who the rest of his scumteam is.

[AdumbroDeus]

That makes... a little more sense.


So let me ask you this then, how does that account for our roleblocker?


We have two scenarios:

1. The lynch fails (which I find extremely unlikely due to the fact that it doesn't account for a roleblocker, unless there's a whole nother scumteam, or another SK that's missing a ton of NKs). Lich kills him toNight, and we lynch lich, game over, we win.

2. He flips water fiend, hole nother scumteam to find.


So, let's assume they're both possibilities, then WHY SHOULDN'T WE BE SCUMHUNTING? Again, the reason why I suggested we should lynch chrono (way back when in the beginning of the day) was in order to play it safe, because he was the only person that had to be scum if there was a second scumteam.



Now, again I ask, if your scenario is correct, where's the roleblocker?




Now, I'd still like an answer, and that goes for the rest of town.


If he flips water fiend from ff4, do we agree that elementals are scum?

[AdumbroDeus]

And no it's not useless, developing information is NEVER useless, that's what town thrives on, we cannot win without information.


Better to figure out what the connections are now as opposed to waiting for the flip when they'll clam up.

[AdumbroDeus]

Argh, then I'll say what I intended to say at the inn toNight.

[AdumbroDeus]

Vote: Chronopie

[AdumbroDeus]

Right and right, and scum 2 killed lich like I hoped they would and, evidently lich picked correctly with Barbariccia.


That leaves JP as pretty obviously scum and an unknown Rubricant.


Glork, you got RB'd? And nobody went after you or thatguy for a kill? That seems... odd.




And I got doomed, makes sense since I was working so hard to out him.

[AdumbroDeus]

I think they RB"d me because they thought I'd be more likely to go after JP, given I said Rosa had to protect Thatguy, then protected myself.
For the record, I didn't go after JP. (And in postgame, Kise can confirm that I actually sent him a dice tag and had to ask him what the result was. By the way, apparently I tried to protect myself.)

I think they killed Bill because they feared exactly what he ended up doing -- crosskills. I explained why Lich (which everyone knew was Bill at that point) had to crosskill to stand a chance, and chances are he'd have to crosskill again tonight. Mafia2 needed him out of the way.

1. Yeah, I know, but it just seems odd in conjunction with doing the same thing last game day. It could mean both doctor claims are true... or it could mean that they're trying to protect a scum doctor by roleblocking them. I don't see the advantage of RBing a doctor if you're going after a top scum suspect one day, and another scum the other day (though, again, you're right in that they thought you were gonna "protect" jp)... This is too wififormy for any concrete conclusions at the moment, but I think it's best to be made aware of it, ESPECIALLY if the doom counter gets set off toDay. I definitely wanna hear more out of thatguy toDay then.



2. Yeah, and that's exactly what I was hoping for, just like I said last game day.

@affinity

: You're right, lich WOULD be more useful, but both lich and scarm are earth/undead, based on what we know of the properties of the elements, scarm couldn't RB lich.






Now, scum.


JP is obvious-scum imo, we've got 2 FF4 elemental fiends, a confirmed (and all dead) 4 elemental fiendgroup, and he's a claimed earth with no evidence of any other earth. Add to that the fact that he was pushing for the quick win last game day by ignoring the possibility of a second scum-group and little redeeming behavior and...

He's our roleblocker, almost positive.





Rubricant is difficult.


Midnight has been a perennially inactive player, and the conversation he had with chrono had my scum-senses tingling cause that claim was very obvious bait to prevent other scumhunting and Midnight fell hook line and sinker.


Anti is again a perennially inactive player, and at the moment all he seems interested in discussing is flavor when we've got at least one scum that we've got very little information about.

@Anti

, flavor is useful at times, but who do you think is scum?


What do you think of JP?

What do you think of midnight?


Who else would you suggest for scrutiny and why?

[AdumbroDeus]

Oh yeah.

HoS: JPSalazar

[AdumbroDeus]

Then could you be somebody different if you're town?


That ploy was too obvious, even for noob town, I don't like it.




What do you think of JP?

What do you think of anti?



Who else should we concentrate on as other possible scum candidates?

[AdumbroDeus]

@midnight, if you're gonna be cocky, do it while scumhunting. It's easy to disguise being disruptive to scumhunting as being cocky. Also, I'm bothered by you dismissing the possibility of there being another scum team so easily.





@JP You gave no legitimate reason for bill being scum, even though you were pushing for his lynch. You pretty much ignored the possibility that it was lylo last game day.


I also find it odd that you're claiming commuter and we just lynched a scum commuter, I doubt there are two commuters in this game, two doctors is odd enough.


Also, since the only elemental that didn't flip scum was a death miller (argh... really), I think it's fair to say that elementals are extremely suspicious, especially given how strongly chrono was opposing the idea that elementals are scum.



You haven't exactly played a strong pro-town game otherwise either.



Who do you think is scum?

What do you think of anti and midnight?

[AdumbroDeus]

It's mostly this post that I'm talking about:

Okay... That whole MPR/Devotress Vote off debacle was just...sad yo Dx

Also I am one to think that the possibility that there is two scum teams of 4 in this is nill and void. From what I can understand, Icerint claimed DM. It seems that she was sorta right. Because if we go with two scum teams, one side Lich/Tiamat/Kraken/Marilith and on the other side Scarmiglione/Barbariccia/Cagnazzo/Rubicante???

Even if she lied about her being a DM(WHich I'll be honest, I wasn't getting "lol Im lying guys look at you squirm!! XD" vibes) that still kills the fact that IF theres a second scum team that they'd be The Four Fiends Scarmiglione/Barbariccia/Cagnazzo/Rubicante.

But I don't think there is a second scum team, I think Icerint's DM claim(That looks true) proves that we only have one more 'mafia' scum to deal with. Lich.

Soo...yea.. Is this more of 'Midnight is crazy'?

[AdumbroDeus]

Reasonable enough explanation, but I'll keep my eye on you.

[AdumbroDeus]

Glork, you're missing something rather large, namely why are you assuming the roleblocking attempts on the doctors were serious attempts (or more likely in that case, claimed roleblocks that were simply skipped).


At that point, with lich immune, they had no better target then attempting to "confirm town" a scum doctor since both nights they targeted people no sane doctor would protect.

1) Was I not right about bill? I said bill was scum, and he practically gave himself away. Absolutely too inconsistent with being lich, then backtracking like it didn't happen. I pointed it out at least once, and I know bill was aware I had him locked as my decision as scum.

2) Yeah, two doctors in a game is odd, why is it hard to accept two commuters...even if one was scum? I can't question why I was given the role, I'm assuming the roles were given out at random.

3) Does it not make sense that Kise would come up with a role that would be elemental, a townie, and a commuter, encompassing everything to make that person seem incredibly scummy, then when the person is lynched, flips Town, and people go 'WTF'? I think when I was issued the role, Kise might have thought that I'd have been dead by now. If I was dead, at least this would have proven that elementals have NO BEARING ON BEING TOWN OR SCUM. Seriously. This game has played out so awkwardly, because look at it - the first two nights, four townies were bumped off.

3.5) I can add that PranaDevil flipped Kjata, which was an Elemental Townie, so your point is incorrect in mentioning the only elemental that didn't flip scum was a Death Miller. Is there a reason there isn't an Elemental Commuter? We've pretty much got the lot on everything else...2 Masons, 2 Thieves, Vanilla Towns, a Death Miller, a scum Commuter, Goons, and a Politician.

4) I may not be the strongest player in the game, but as I said from the get-go, I'm new to this 'flavor', and all this nonsense. I'm partial to what the actual card game is like.

5) I do not think there are two town doctors. We had a lot of people in the game (22), yeah, but 2 doctors? Really? I'm inclined to believe a doctor may be a scum doctor and one being a town doctor. This might sound like an absolutely STUPID thought to the rest of you, especially since you think I'm a damned scum because I claimed to be an Elemental Commuter, but I believe this to be a distinct possibility.

6) About Antifinity: I've believed Anti to be scum for a few phases now. I'm beginning to wonder if the Doom cast was made by Lich (bill) before he died, or if someone is presently alive and Dooming people (2 Doomers?). 2 Doomers can be unlikely, yes, but Anti can't be plain Vanilla. No way.

6.5) About Midnight: New-ish into the game, but the point you raised about Midnight mentioning how "But I don't think there is a second scum team". The rationale is "Midnight was crazy then"? Really? REALLY? I said I'm an impatient townie and a bunch of people jumped on me. If this doesn't throw up a flag to possibly saying "Hey, I'm scum and backtracking", I don't know what the hell will.

1. Doesn't mean that you didn't have alternative reasons, which is the real point.

2. Because commuter is an uncommon role, doctors are present in pretty much every game.

3. Raw numbers suggest otherwise, and prana didn't have an element, just immunity to all.

[AdumbroDeus]

That assumes that they wanted you dead, maybe he feels he could've made a stronger case on you.


Or maybe you're the scum doctor, it was you who initially suggested that there was a vig at all.



The point is, you're putting far too much faith in the roleblocking being an accurate indicator when scum had every reason to use it to mess with us.

[AdumbroDeus]

That assumes that they wanted you dead, maybe he feels he could've made a stronger case on you.


Or maybe you're the scum doctor, it was you who initially suggested that there was a vig at all.



The point is, you're putting far too much faith in the roleblocking being an accurate indicator when scum had every reason to use it to mess with us.

The lack of kill on the night thatguy was blocked doesn't make sense, then.


By the way,

Unvote

Two scum going for the same kill.



And no, I'm saying you're scum, either you or thatguy could easily be scum.

[AdumbroDeus]

...


So I'm dead.

Sticking with my read on JP, and one of the claimed docs is still scum.

[AdumbroDeus]

Argh


I read town perfectly, I knew you guys would realize the elementals were all scum and go after them, that's why I attempted to bus my entire team.



Should've worked too, but bill decided to go pro-town and oppose his win condition.


My only regret is not going with my gut and roleblocking myself instead of thatguy... oh well that and the fact that I'm a newbie here and I haven't had a chance to develop the gravitas Glork has.



I wish I'd been playing since the beginning.





As far as balance goes...

@kise

no neon signs on scum next time, please.

[AdumbroDeus]

But overall, good game everyone.

[AdumbroDeus]

Eh, I should've started using my avatar from the other forum I'm on.


Still, from my play, people should've known I was experienced, it was extremely frustrating getting ignored.

[AdumbroDeus]

Lol, bad way to figure out scum.


But, I play very vocally always, I never try too avoid being noticed, just avoid being noticed in the wrong way.

[AdumbroDeus]

Eh, I should've started using my avatar from the other forum I'm on.


Still, from my play, people should've known I was experienced, it was extremely frustrating getting ignored.

I actually thought you were the drowning vig for a short while, around when you first replaced in. Your suspicions coincided with the drowned players rather nicely. Ultimately, your behavior towards Bill did you in with the rest of your group. Reading between the lines, you all made it decently obvious that you knew he was scum because of interactions and/or parallels between scumgroups.

A lot of scums (dramonic especially) fell into the trap of being "too" knowledgable about things no townie could properly guess at.

Really?

Cause I could honestly say that I would've said and done exactly the same thing if I was town, he was MAD obvious the last day he was alive, and I honestly don't know how anyone didn't figure it out.



His behavior was simply too contradictory, going for the unsafe choice when the entire argument for the second scumgroup was one of safety, in case there was one as opposed to there being legit proof that there was one...


At least till chrono's scummy breakdown.

[AdumbroDeus]

...


Oh wait, I get it.


I seemed overknowledgable because I relied on flavor that figure out what would be considered "common knowledge". I know SquareEnix's stuff incredibly well, and flavor was very very obviously more then flavor in this game.


I think it should've been evident that I was an FF buff when I defended prana's claim WAY back when as reasonable, I grew up on those games. Seiken Densetsu 3, Final Fantasy 6, Dragon Quest, etc. I figured that people would research the flavor and with prodding come to the same conclusions I was coming to. I guess not.


Screwed cause I expected people to be more effective then they actually were, lol @ the irony.

[AdumbroDeus]

*looks at Kjata*

Nah, it looks right.





Anyway Kise, the bigger problem was the voting interactions were big neon signs when somebody lied and it was way too easy to metagame that the elementals were scum, especially given the flavor you gave and how there were complete sets. If I were town, my first action in this game would be to call for a mass elemental claim, kill everyone that was elemental, and use the votes to figure out who lied.

Heck, I was reading up on the game when I got your initial message and had already figured it out, I'm just surprised nobody else did.


I was literally sweating trying to figure out a way to KILL MY SCUMMBUDDY in a way that didn't reveal I was fire elemental, we even considered NKing him ourselves.

[AdumbroDeus]

Again, you're sort of missing the question of why I wouldn't have done that as town?


Outing the last member of a mostly dead scumgroup while at the same time implicating 2 members of the opposing scumgroup if my lynch candidate flipped scum was not a pro-town play?


Then I'd ask you to explain what I should've done in that situation assuming I was town privately at some point.

[AdumbroDeus]

Also, I made a cute fuzzy kitten defense page! It's right here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... se#History

[AdumbroDeus]

Ah, I see. My debator nature taking over. So from both a pro-town prospective and a "not being revealed as scum" prospective I should've just said, "yeah, he's obvious lich for these reasons" and proceeded to grill them about concentrating on a mostly dead scumteam when there was a strong possibility of a full one?



Nice to know so I don't make that mistake as town (or scum), because I know I would've done it regardless of my faction in that situation.

[AdumbroDeus]

I think it should've been obvious to everyone when I brought it up to be quite frank, his target choice was far too inconsistent but after that well thought out argument which was for picking out the safe choice. There was no way that it had simply slipped his mind.

[AdumbroDeus]

Antifinity, as soon as it was revealed that one scum was elemental, it became a neon sign saying "this guy is scum", especially when both groups of scum were revealed to be members of the 4 elemental fiends groups.

Forcing claims, then using process of elimination when you hit an elemental to figure out who could and could not be elementals created cleared townies incredibly quickly.

[AdumbroDeus]

...

I thought Bill was the lynch?


Nobody who was paying attention could've said that, not only was I pushing for Chrono's lynch since basically when Bill posted (as a safety measure), I explicitly indicted most of the people who were pushing for the bill lynch at least partially for pushing for it.

[AdumbroDeus]

Actually, you gave me plenty of useful information, my take-away point from this is, "don't play too smart, or people will think you're scum".


I guess that's the meta atm and I gotta roll with it, but you were lucky this time.

[AdumbroDeus]

I don't think it's so much as "don't play too smart" but more "don't play too smart in knowing what scum can have". It did pretty much boil down to being yourself or Anti as scum from what I could tell, and Glork's idea at the end had the game won for town in either situation, of your team you were the least scummy. It's just unfortunate that the rest of your team didn't so much get bussed, as throw themselves in front of it by the end of the game.

Eh, but that's the thing, all my reasoning was from public knowledge, and we couldn't communicate in the day, so if JG had any special reason for believing bill was scum, I sure as hell wasn't aware of it. As far as mechanics, don't tell me that any of you believed that 3 members of the FF1 elemental fiends appeared as scum and there wasn't a forth, and he wasn't earth elemental. Scarm was earth elemental (flavor), and we already knew that earth elementals canceled each other out, and you died telling us abilities got absorbed by same elements.


Anything beyond that, I was as much in the dark about as the rest of town, but when he when after the unsafe choice after an argument that had safety as it's implicit basis, it clicked immediately.


So yeah, I played too smart, it pisses me off to know that I did it, but whatever.

you were lucky this time.

Yes, because using a classic scumtell which went 6 for 6 in this game is clearly luck. In my younger days, I used to come to the right conculsion as scum too quickly, too, and I know I've been caught doing it. (I want to say Committee Mafia is an example, but I'm too lazy to go research it.)

Anywho, Prana's more correct. It's not "don't play smart," because smart play is always a boon to your side. This is not a game for idiots. It's "don't play in a manner that leads you to draw conclusions that rely on scum-only information."

It's "don't play so smart as it leads people to believe you're relying on scum-only information".


Because I know me, I caught on because his lynch choice was unsafe and contradictory. If he had been pushing for chrono I would've suspected, but not been sure, like the rest of you.


Part of smart play is knowing when to pretend to be less then you are.

[AdumbroDeus]

Eh, yeah, basically to encapsulate, my mistake wasn't that I relied on scum-only info to arrive at the conclusion, but instead that I didn't realize it SEEMED like it was scum-only info.


After immediately recognizing you guys were gonna realize there were two scumgroups as soon as bill posted, it was a foolish reading mistake, and a mistake I know not to make next time.

[AdumbroDeus]

Nice to know somebody appreciates my play, speaking of which, I think we're gonna be meeting again.


Dram and Chrono, if you're scum in this game and I end up being scum with you, please don't jump in front of the bus again...




But I'm actually REALLY sad I wasn't town, when I came in, I could've auto-broken the game, start with a mass elemental claim, then force the most suspicious people to lynch the claimed elementals, pick possible roles based on the interaction or lack thereof, and use process of elimination to pick out scum, because we ALWAYS knew the exact number of elemental interactions in each vote. Most suspicious person gives the second vote to hammer.

[AdumbroDeus]

Thanks, wish we could've communicated during the day, then we could've avoided this.


But I got a nice lesson here, and I feel that's what counts, looking forward to playing you again Glork.

[AdumbroDeus]

Errr, I didn't have doom, that was Bill who had doom. His scumteam had the doomer and the politician, we had the... commuter and roleblocker... Does anyone see a disparity here?


Speaking of which: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7xUSjE9Dh8#t=1m23s


Substitute in Bill for meg, and it's pretty much the exact scene, including the rolling flames.


Yeah, in his situation I would've dropped some hints, but outright revealing himself like that just caused his faction to lose, managing to take us with him of course.