Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[Albert B. Rampage]

Worship targets

:

Egyptian Gods
The Old Ones
Judea-Christian Angels

And tomorrow I will give you some fascinating results or I will be held responsible. So please start voting now for one of those three factions before you forget.

[Iecerint]

OK, so, here's

the other infodump

:

Someone posted anonymously in our QT shortly after it opened under the name "Sky." He asked which of the players in the QT had a specific rolename, and he told us that we shouldn't worship ABR. I said we shouldn't give information like that because we weren't certain town, and (because I suspected him specifically for his behavior) asked who he was; he responded by repeating my text back to me. Then Kinetic posted in the QT indicating that we could not post anonymously. He has not returned since then.

(This is the "Mystery Man" I was talking about earlier.)

Because Sky refused to reveal himself and jumped into the QT early with explicit rolefishing and all that, I was suspicious of him; so, based on the times when Sky posted in our QT, I came up with a shortlist of 6 likely suspects using msutils. My random vote (dram) reflects one of the 6 original suspects. I've reduced the list to 4 by now.

OK, fast forward to ABR's dramatic appearance:

Hello SK. I have something for you up there comrade.

Fate, I have an inquiry for you up there as well.

When I saw these crumbs, they reminded me of Sky, but ABR wasn't on my shortlist of Sky suspects. But it looked to me like ABR might be something similar to him because of the "up there" flavor of the crumb. So I added ABR to my list, but mostly wanted to keep watching to evaluate what was going on.

I am deliberating whether I want to stay in the

shadows

this game...

Bold not added, so another crumb from ABR, but this one makes him look like someone different from Sky ("shadow" flavor). Also, Sky's stipulation that we shouldn't worship ABR would work if they knew one another's roles and were opposed in some way.

I tried crumbing back to ABR to see if he was Sky, after all:

Hmm. So I guess you're saying you're also delirium-immune? Like you're just

way above

all these fancy vote mechanics?

Bold added. But he didn't respond, so I stuck with my ABR/Sky dichotomy.

Factor in that ABR has shown (IMO) disproportionate antagonism toward my perceived faction claim, and I came up with the following hypothesis:

ABR and Sky are 3rd party players who are each associated with specific factions. One of ABR's is GOO, one of Sky's is the Norse gods. Their win condition involves their associated faction(s) "beating" the opposing faction(s) in some way (whether by eliminating them, or by getting more worship than them, or some combination).

This is an expanded version of the "Universe A" I mentioned in the last infodump. I think this is more likely than Sky and ABR being opposing scum faction leaders ala WoT because the fact that they appear to know one another's roles would be difficult to balance.

(There's also still one more QT poster who has yet to explicitly deny that s/he was Sky. I think Kinetic wouldn't allow that kind of lie, since anonymous QT posting is apparently illegal for us, and that kind of lie would reinforce the anonymity of the posting. So I'd like for him or her to do as much in the QT ASAP. His or her failure to do as much is already evident to anyone with access to our QT, so it's not as if this is much of an extra risk to him or her. If s/he feels otherwise, s/he should indicate why/that s/he does not intend to do so.)

[DTMaster]

^^ The above post. This reminds me of fucking Legacy of the Ancient Mafia. Except more personal win cons. This also supports my 1 mafia theory.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12675

[DarkStalker]

The following is in relation to me reading pages 1-17 and my read of ani's summary here:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 46#2292146

Page 10*

Iec
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 44#2288044
"Since all the cool kids are already saying it, I intend to worship the Norse Gods. "
whose the cool kids, there didn't seem to be many people saying them at that point. Also are you just agreeing with them cause there cool?

Nothing much else on page 10 and in relation to what Ani said def possible one of DT and orto could be scum as it would be reasonable for each group to get one recruit there though i will wait to vote either at time of reading this page as i would like further proof than just that possibility to go on

Page 11*

Nika did come off as though he was voting cause he wants info as apposed to voting someone he thinks is scummy. I can see his logic in terms of what knowledge we could gain on scum if mina is scum. But if mina isn't scum his actions seem kinda fruitless. Either i missed why he truly thinks mina is scum or he is wants that kinda info so much he is willing to risk mina is town. And i don't see why he'd take that risk

Page 12*

Yay does feel like alot of noise there or at least Nothing seemed interesting enough to comment on relating to my suspicions or ani's suspicions

Page 13*

Iec's jump to CMAR feels off i thought he was firmly on fate. I didn't think he'd go for a meta case at this point. and his view is based on Cmar's tone? How does tone relate to actual play here since cmar ain't said much? Iec comes off like he is just abadoning fate because its not working and not because he thinks Cmar is a better lynch.

Ani also appears to have misunderstood Iec's
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 55#2288955
I spoke with ani early and set him straight so yay that point is no longer relevant, ignore it

Page 14*

Ani mentioned faraday and at the moment i don't think Faraday has said anything that would make him scummy. Can't recall him saying anything highly towny either so I guess I'm null there

As far as me read of fate goes I'd say its simular to ani's read of him of nuetral to town but leaning town for same reasons.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 29#2289229
I don't see why nika went after parama at the end there either especially since nika didn't vote him with that comment. Also if he feels strongly then why what to day 4? Nika's comment here don't make sence. Did he drop his mina case or what?

Page 15*

I have talked about spyreX and his mechanics before i don't feel i need to say more

My opinion of Tar's claim is different than Ani's as Tar's claim is very testable. Tar said he is out of the game after Night 3 if a mafia GF is not dead. If tar is town he was telling the truth. If he is scum then he wasn't telling the truth. I have never seen a large theme game that ended by night 3. If someone has seen one then let me know of my error. So basically we wait til day 4. If a mafia GF ain't dead and Tar ain't removed from game, then Tar is lying scum and needs lynched. If Mafia GF already dead then we can deal with Tar's allignment the normal way after that by basically looking at his play and deciding his alignment then. Claiming miller early is something I look at as null since meta can skew that sorta thing. So to me tar is null right now. And as long as he remains null or townish I'm pretty much gonna go with the wait and see tactic. If he ain't super scummy I won't push a lynch on him before day 4 or ever after that

Page 16 & 17*

Post 380 by orto
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 04#2289804
Wow. why the hell you want a policy lynch on fate and not care he scum? There is alot wrong with this post.

I think DTM totally misread nika's read of parama in 390. no one has said anything about investigations so bringing that up was dumb and confusing. i may have to rethink my read on him as that was quite a crazy statement even though nika has bee diffcult for me to understand. Gonna also have to rethink my read on Mighty Orbits as i think what dT said may have confused me about mighty orbits. I'm gonna read mighty orbits in iso before his tar vote fix and face palm if i did misread.

Interjection

PF reads:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 98#2287798
and factors in how close that was to when the game opened by few hours. PF Facepalms multiple times. Pf's hands and face now hurt. PF needs to stopping stressing about being so far behind in this game. it may be messing with my brain.

TLDR summary:

DS's Suspects (not in any order):

Orto - Post 380 was bad
Iec - I am yet to read his response to me so that is of course in my mind

People DS be watching:

Nika as his play is pecular to me and doesn't make sence

Mighty orbits yay I think i fucked up my original read of him big time. gonna have to fix that by reading him more clearly and not make that kinda mistake again. I think i was focusing so much on where i currently was at in my catch up and not remembering what i already read a little bit on him. Yay being far behind is really fucking with me

Un- Mighty-fos: Mighty Orbits

for now as i be fool that needs to probably reread him in entirly in iso as probably most or all i said about him was a mess.

See you guys later, my hands and face hurt so much I'm gonna go see a doctor, lol and then read page 18 and the rest of the game

[DTMaster]

I should add that, this is my personal fucking theory: Should be taken aside, but it would work wonders to have multiple factions within town fighting over themselves (ie supported by Ice's win con information about the god factions), with a single mafia faction.

I mean it'd make sense, and whom Tar needs to lynch.

[Plum]

All right. Zito of MO, I'm looking at you (preferably, I'll take Troll if it must be so): How sure are you that SpyreX's scum read on Mina is off? You're just saying things, and sometimes there's reason for doing that, but I want a number before I'm comfortable with you saying things the way you've been doing. Also Troll,

why single out Ort's entrance to the game as interesting but not DTM's

? Especially given the fact that your

every other

post is something (often weak in my opinion) against DTM.

Nik. Please disregard my last post. I was missing the brain for a minute.

The thing is, Plum, that I find Iecerint pushing a false case on Mina. It doesn't seem like legitimate scumhunting to me. IDK maybe it's because I unconsciously see similarities in the style of play from Iecerint in this game and when he was scum with me before.

Now

this

is the sort of meta that I like and find useful (meta with strong personal connections is in my mind most apt to be on the right track vs. perceived tone/posting style in general). Having said, that, there was a fairly minor oddity I noticed in Iec's original Mina case, and overall his play isn't that encouraging either. But having said that -

Shall I break down the scummy dancing-around-Ortolan that Iec has done piece by piece or spare the post length? Because Iec says multiple times that Ort has done scummy things but it seems like continuous distancing in my humble opinion. Given that right now Iec is casing against CMAR, who's posted little/given little content at all and thinks Ort looks scummy but wants a lot more content from him before considering it. So yeah. That I happen to not like at all either. What, "outright lynching a player who has posted 3 times is a little silly" but someone who's posted ten items with at least as little content as Ort is okay to vote for? The children's moral values are going to get confused, Papa Iec.

The ambivalence regarding Spy sounds disturbingly like 'dang I'm sure I could make a case on you and I wish I could but I can't; ugh; looks at me acknowledge that SpyreX is very Town'.

@Totallynotmafia

, you vote Ort for being likely to have been recruited into the game by scum, and you make fair points about that. What do you think of his actual play/stances thus far this game, though?

I capitulate to the Iec/Mina connections seen by Ooba, though it's possible to see Mina swinging either way thar. And yes I've seen Iec's response. Frankly I'm sure the theory could be wrong, sure, but . . . damn I've gone off my 'don't speculate pairings until you at least get a flip done in the game' (and to a degree did that with Iec-Ort). Look, I'm perfectly willing to lynch Ort (and at this point that also goes for Iec) and call it even and discuss connections more afterwards.

Nik: Sorry, I was missing the brain on my last post directed at you (information overload gogogo). Lemme get back to you with a different something soonish.

Iec, I want to see your response to DarkStalker re: your jump to CMAR on page 13, thanks.

Iec, re: Sky: I don't doubt that this Sky person is in your QT messing around, do doubt that finding him via breadcrumbs Day 1 is going to happen, willing to hold ABR accountable for the awesome stuff he's promising, don't think he's scum at the moment.

[Chronopie]

So ABR is saying that we should worship anyone

but

Norse gods... 'mkay...

Well since Egyptian is on that list, I'm sending in that worship vote naow.

[Chronopie]

Also: SpyreX said that worship votes did a full 4 slot rotation, so ended up on their intended target. (until we get another faction).

[Albert B. Rampage]

@Iecerint

hohoho...that's quite something you're unloading on us there. Nice.

I am deliberating whether I want to stay in the

shadows

this game...

Bold not added, so another crumb from ABR, but this one makes him look like someone different from Sky ("shadow" flavor).

Nope, no "shadow" flavor...the chosen word is a reflection of one of my playstyles:

Re: ABR. I read War in Heaven so I'm leery of him running anything. Just be Very Useful and we're cool.

Hello, Papa Zito. In War in Heaven I wasn't running the show. The majority of the town was against me and Fonz and rofl were -attempting to- lead the town, and it's only because they didn't think I was scummy -yet- that I survived that long. War in Heaven is a good example of when I'm NOT taking charge. Another good example is in Friends and Enemies where I played

what I call the "shadow game"

, that I unfortunately haven't quite mastered yet.

I see you've been working on some theories.

ABR and Sky are 3rd party players who are each associated with specific factions. One of ABR's is GOO, one of Sky's is the Norse gods. Their win condition involves their associated faction(s) "beating" the opposing faction(s) in some way (whether by eliminating them, or by getting more worship than them, or some combination).

"Scum love to hunt for 3rd parties". I believe this quote is quite relevant to your case, isn't it?

Also, Sky's stipulation that we shouldn't worship ABR would work if they knew one another's roles and were opposed in some way.

I know who your faction QT's "Mystery Man" is. An annoying player. He's also one of the Norse Gods and the reason that the Norse should not be worshiped tonight. I hope you understand.

[Parama]

Okay, there is a 99% chance I will be worshipping the Egyptian Gods. Just putting this out there.

[Iecerint]

@DS, "by all the cool kids saying it," I mean that "it" is "their worship target." So you should read it as "everyone is claiming their worship target, so here's mine."

I switched away from Fate because SX and others had given information about Fate's meta I hadn't known. I switched to CMAR because I think he is scum based on recent meta. I'm pretty confident in it.

@ Plum, regarding Orto -- for one, I misvigged Orto the last time I played with him (Moviestar Madness N1). So there's that. I would support an O wagon, but I'm pretty sure that CMAR is scum, and nothing has happened to address my concern, so I see little reason to switch cases at this time.

@ ABR -- I thought Sky was a scum player originally, so that's why I've been working on figuring him out. The result of that was the 3rd party theory. It's not that I "hunted" for 3rd parties; I reacted to Sky's scummy play in-QT.

While I don't dispute that Sky is sketchy, I think scum are probably pretty even distributed between factions. So, if you don't just have a wincon-based reason to exclude the Norse gods from your plan (which I think is most plausible), I think you're being myopic. But it probably won't matter for D1, UNLESS --

Does Worship reset each day phase such that whichever faction receives the most worship during the N-1st phase wins worship, or is it that Worship continuously accumulates throughout the game?

If it's the former, outright exclusion in the short term is fine. If it's the latter, we might prefer a plan that allows later flexibility depending upon which faction's scum is caught.

(Preview edit: also, since Sky knew that there was something special about you (at least, he said not to worship you pre-game), I doubt your antipathy toward him is driven purely by personal dislike.)

[Iecerint]

Well, we know now that ABR knows Sky and Sky knows ABR, and that they appear to be opposed. So that all fits with the 3rd party angle.

We also know that ABR crumbed to Fate and SK. So that also fits.

If Sky crumbed in other QTs, that would finish with the parallelism.

[totallynotmafia]

Ok, before we do anything can we please clarify if spyrex's delerium thingy affects the worship votes?

Otherwise people are either going to end up worshipping the wrong gods or using it as an excuse to worship the wrong gods.

@Totallynotmafia

, you vote Ort for being likely to have been recruited into the game by scum, and you make fair points about that. What do you think of his actual play/stances thus far this game, though?

As I said I don't like the way he reacted to people voting him, but it's mainly because he was keeping quiet about the way he entered the game while DTMaster was open about it. I mean, he even quotes DTM talking about it but all he says is:

Oh yeah last night I recieved a note when I came in. There is a mafia faction, and I highly think it's a single mafia faction and it has a Godfather. Yes I'm claiming role related information nao in Alice in Wonderland Style.

This is also very interesting.

I'm starting to think there are other possibilities as well, but I want to hear from ort first.

[Chronopie]

My ability DOES affect the worship vote: but not in the way we think - it is both a vote and an action so it goes all the way around the horn with 4 factions.

[totallynotmafia]

I don't understand what he means by that...so the vote will end up on who we choose to worship anyway?

[Chronopie]

AFAIK: Yes.

[CryMeARiver]

Look, I'm really sorry I haven't given this game as much attention as I would have liked to have guys. But I'm not gonna wimp out and replace out. Expect content soon.

[totallynotmafia]

Well that's why we need to work it out for sure, otherwise people will vote for Norse and say "Oh I thought it would go two down."

[Chronopie]

@SpyreX: is my interpretation correct? just want to make sure.

[Fate]

DTM you can dance all the fuck you want around it but the FACT of the matter is you and Nikanor made some limp dick worship votes EARLY. WAY TOO EARLY.

I don't care how you explain it. I'm not even going to retort your points or anything because its a waste of time. All that matters is you did something incredibly anti-town and you're trying to spin it the fuck away.

Not gonna fly.

I'm thinking of voting Old Gods for balance, and because I don't like Chrono and I have traumatic childhood memories of Christianity. This thread needs some SpyX.

Iecrint looking for crumbs on D1 is just paranoid/dumb town, so I'll reluctantly have to lean town on him. I still don't like how he thinks DTM and Niks BS was nothing special to comment on.

[Fate]

I wouldn't shed a single tear much less a river if CMAR hung. He's been very active in a game I was ejected from and I'm still bitter.

You have time to taint my good slot's name but you can't post here?

[Iecerint]

Iecrint looking for crumbs on D1 is just paranoid/dumb town, so I'll reluctantly have to lean town on him. I still don't like how he thinks DTM and Niks BS was nothing special to comment on.

Why is it dumb?

If, hypothetically, DTM was recruited by exactly one player, that increases the possibility that DTM is town and O is scum given that Mina is scum. But that relies on a lot of assumptions, so I don't get where you're coming from, and I particularly don't understand why you appear to think it means Niki and DTM are scum together.

If you want me to comment on a case, make it clearer to me.

[Fate]

You don't think you sound dumb?

ABR says "up there" clearly meaning the top of the page,
you go:
"ZOMG UP THERE AS IN SKY HE MEANZ UP THERE! HES CRUMBIN SK AND FATE!?!?"

What the FUCK?
#1 Sky obviously doesn't want to be known thats why he posted under an Alias and flaked when the mod said he couldn't. Why would he crumb!
#2 Hunt scum and stop being an idiot by looking for crumbs. SCUM look for crumbs, or lynchers, or kill-targeters, etc.

ABR says "in the shadows" Obvious playstyle reference is obvious
"OMG NOW HEZ CLAIMIN SHADOWS WU THIS MEAN?"

U silly.

[Katy]

@Kathy
Let's break your case down to 4 points.

1. The first RV. We both agree. Nothing biggy.

2. The second "RV" wasn't a vote. I'll let Nikanor answer this question, since it's directed to him, My interpretation (not a RV, more of a pressure)

3.SK vote. Now this is something. Explain to me the diffrence between Ice's point on Mina-scum linking to Ort-scum/DTM-scum and how it differs from Nikanor. How about Spy from Nikanor. Spy lead with the secret information theory. Ice fully explained the Mina link theory. But you seem to find them townier then Nikanor.

Because I don't know what Nikanor was doing with his "pseudo-vote." He didn't give an explanation for that action, merely linked to a post, leaving it up to the reader to try to interpret his intent. I think that's scummy, because he leaves it to others to insert his reasoning for him. A big scumtell I look for is people throwing vague accusations out to see what "sticks" and this definitely feels like that. I think that is a lot different from someone explaining their reasoning explicitly. It is different from what Spyre did because Spyre built an actual case on Mina before dangling "secret info."

I reread your whole issue with the lazy vote and:

I also disagree with your vote theory. Why can't you pressure someone with questions and votes? Why must you pressure someone? But only kill with votes.

You can pressure someone with votes, but how could his stated reason for voting pressure Mina? He was wanting information from Spyre, there's nothing Mina can really do about that either way. Nothing Mina says could affect Spyre's claim of being able to access some sort of secret information so there's nothing for her to respond to in Nikanor's vote.

Wouldn't the whole: if votes = death, and Mina gained votes because of her slip, be considered pressure to see how she behaves when she's going to die?

But that wasn't Nikanor's reasoning - even when asked to clarify he stated that his vote was for getting secret info that Spyre claimed to be able to give if people voted for Mina. He didn't ever say he was pressuring her or wanting to see how she behaved, so there's no reason to think that this was what he was doing. But thanks for trying to give him a way out.

I don't see your logic in this. If you're saying that votes shouldn't be used for pressuring as here ... You should also be attacking Spy because he voted Mina, and then explained why his vote was on Mina to find the secret info.

I didn't mean to say that votes shouldn't be used to pressure, if that's how you read it. I was saying that if Spyre is holding info hostage and requiring someone else's lynch to give it, then Spyre is the one who should be under pressure. Nikanor shouldn't have been voting for Mina JUST to get some sort of magical information, he should vote for her because he thinks she's scum.

I don't really like Spyre's vague promise of secret info, but he at least made a reasonable case before voting and I think there's a possibility he has some purpose behind what he did. I dislike Nikanor's vote for the sole purpose of maybe getting this secret info from Spyre more than I dislike Spyre's promising it in the first place.

Finally I don't see how you find Parama townie in his response to either Nikanor or Me.

I don't necessarily find him townie, and therefore he was not on my list of people I think are town.

I do want to do an ISO on him at some point, but nothing I read from him bothered me as much as what I read from Nikanor.

And tomorrow I will give you some fascinating results or I will be held responsible. So please start voting now for one of those three factions before you forget.

I'm going to remember that. /random gives me 1 so it's Egyptian gods for me.

Well, we know now that ABR knows Sky and Sky knows ABR, and that they appear to be opposed.

I don't know this. I just know that he claims to know who it is. He seems to have FAR more info about the game on day one than I do and I'm starting to find it pretty weird that he seems to know so much. As he said, he has to produce results or pay, so I'm not too worried in the areas where he has to back up his posturing, but I'm not going to automatically believe or trust everything he says right now, especially given that we don't know yet what all factions we have out there or if people have separate win cons, etc.

[Iecerint]

Oh. Well. Um. That actually didn't occur to me.

Anyway, Sky seems to know SOMETHING about ABR, and then ABR claimed all this fancy stuff, and then he claimed to know who Sky was, so that's still something.

I got a response from Kinetic; worship votes do NOT accumulate, so there's no risk of making it hard to switch to Norse given a scumNorse flip.

I'm not sure who I'll worship at this time. Will figure it out before long.