Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[SerialClergyman]

Yeah, I agree, Goat. Part of my problem as I identified in the dead QT was that pre-claim I had my suspect pool as McG, Incog, pops and Jahudo. Given Jahudo was a mson, that looks really, really strong, but given I was pushing the pro-town power role out of those three, even if I had my way and pops got lynched, no way am I convincing anyone to stick with my plan on D3.

There was a lot of gut-agree with McG's claim at the time of the claim. I think that was a big mistake, and I remember being seriously surprised. I fell into line without questioning it when Ecto switched claims, but before that I seriously didn't believe him. Unfortuantely I had such little cred that when I happily agred to be his vig target people took that as a scum tell ><

Incog's point about counter-claiming is good, but assumes a level of play and activity that McG wasn't showing at that time, I think. I know that I considered Ecto's claiming of 1-shot to possibly-town lie covering for a full vig or an odd night vig (or an SK). It's possible that McG-town doesn't coutnerclaim because he's worried about exposing ecto as odd-vig, not 1-shot vig.

I thanksed Hoopla via pm earlier, but publicly - thanks! Very nice modding.

Was town's fault about the deadlinse - didn't finish off nabnab arlier and pops wasted 3 days not claiming for no reason.

[RedCoyote]

"damnit, why do I never reach a day 2 as town? Watching these guys is like drinking a bottle of cough medicine."

I don't know what this means, but I'm guessing it's not much of a compliment. XD

Our Mod did wonderful. I've never seen a game make it from start to finish, not only without any replacements, but without any prods. That has to be some sort of testament to the professionalism and dedication of the entire playerlist. It was well selected and it was a real joy to play with everyone here. The setup seemed fine and the bankable deadlines were added incentive to push the game along (a good thing).

As far as any reactions to the alignments go, it looks about right. McGriddle's jumping around this last day and both him and Ecto's reluctance to really push on the Masons seemed really strange, but, to be honest, I felt a little shortchanged by our Mason team towards the end. I really wanted to believe the Mason claims, right up to the end, until Jahudo came down on me. I don't think I ever really had a problem with either of them from the beginning of the game onward. Then, maybe out of OMGUS, maybe out of just frustration with the town's lack of getting anywhere, I completely lost all sympathy I had for the Mason team and went for it. iamausername said he kind of lost interest and Jahudo, I'm guessing, just wanted whatever lynch that wasn't a Mason.

But you win as a team and you lose as a team. Always. The scum team did better than the town team did. Good game, everyone.

[Elmo]

+1 Hoopla did a good job modding. Cheers!

SC: I thought/think a one-shot vig and an even night vig makes a fair amount of sense. I wouldn'ta thought it was particularly scummy in his shoes. I'm still pretty damn surprised McGriddle thought up that claim on his lonesome. More attention ought to have been paid to the idea he was couched into it, possibly with daytalking, but eh.

I dunno, with Ecto's vig claim I think I just thought "it's too bizarre to fake" and then thinking about it was never a high enough priority - I will say I felt really rushed after massclaim, but that may just have been other stuff. I would've been pretty amused if it turned out there weren't any doc-types in the game, though.

Red: lol, everyone?

[Goatrevolt]

I'm still pretty damn surprised McGriddle thought up that claim on his lonesome. More attention ought to have been paid to the idea he was couched into it, possibly with daytalking, but eh.

With his accident, it appears he really was...couched...into it. (Sorry if that was in poor taste).

Agreed, though. That was a very legit-seeming fake claim. The only time I questioned it was when he said he targeted Jahudo, didn't announce that he was roleblocked, and didn't even speculate on it. That seemed way too convenient/fake to me.

I'm never letting Ectomancer off the hook again. I may read him as scummy in every game, but he's just going to have to deal with it when he's actually town .

[Incognito]

Not going to debate that one, but: so what? It just seems pretty weird to randomly be paranoid about me every Night. I think you're one of a small group of people who hugely overrate my play for no apparent reason, which is getting pretty irritating, honestly.

I don't see what's weird about it or why that would be irritating. If two people have a pretty good history of playing with one another (like us) and have seen each other both as town and scum (again, like us), then it should go without saying that meta and gut feelings should play a more substantial role in each player being able to get a good read off the other assuming they're both town. And since you were the town one in this game, not me, and I know that your gut is usually pretty good, then it follows that I should be concerned about the fact that you just might read me correctly here. I don't see why that would be unclear to you.

Well, I think that's a good part of why it happened, at least on Day 3. Day 2 was mostly rushed for time as far as I can remember. I don't think anyone seriously considered Ecto or McGriddle as scum - most people were looking elsewhere. People tend to keep looking where they're looking. It's pretty simple, to my mind.

I'm not talking about Day 3, obviously. I pretty clearly said "when McGriddle claimed", which happened on Day 2. Was Day 2 rushed for you guys? Maybe. But even so, I still think the standard procedure for determining the validity of a claim is to check for consistency. IMO, McGriddle's reaction to Ectomancer's claim did not look consistent with the type of reaction I would expect to come from someone who had a similar town role and that's why I've brought it up now.

[Ectomancer]

There were definitely times when we were in trouble. I would never have planned that double vig claim. Luckily the way it went down (me being totally surprised) made it seem more natural I think.

Elmo, I would hazard that you never saw me as town because with you specifically, I did not try to appear town, and did things to make our relationship in game shaky.
Patrick was definitely not my idea of a kill choice and you were the only one to pick up on that.
I thought Goat did a fine job with the "evidence" that was available. His logic all made sense.

Day 3 was toughest for me because I knew that by killing Pops, we had the town divided up between factions with myself on one side and Incog on another and McGriddle in the middle able to do anything this game (apparently) and get away with it. We had also sliced up the town in conversation the previous days enough to make it really unlikely that 5 town would get together and agree on 1 of us. It then became a matter of letting things flow to a vote and I was maintaining enough activity.

I liked the bankable deadlines. I think games only extend past a certain point because they can and it gets stagnant and eventually people come in and vote who they were going to anyhow. Interestingly enough it seems that Elmo was the only one concerned about banking time and it would have helped at the end when the scum team was just trying to bide its time.

[Jahudo]

Thanks for modding Hoops! The bankable deadlines were nice, they should be used more often. Preferably by a town that figures out how to take advantage of them

Ecto had me fooled the whole time. I didn't even want to ask about his claim switch because I think people get so worked up over the "Lynch all Liars" idea. Now at least I have an example if I want to use it in the future.

I wanted to vote Incog most of the game, but every time I wrote something up it seemed like OMGUS. He framed his case on me really well, so that I couldn't argue the tells but just the conclusion.

McGriddle played good for being a lurker and out of the loop apparently. I think his vig claim made him look better than Ecto, who was already looking good. Weird how that worked out.

And yeah, I didn't believe my case in RC but felt it had to be right because of the process of elimination. And I was definitely tunneling on pops. Hoopla, are you sure I'm not scum in this game?

[Patrick]

gg everyone.

I'm not entirely sure about the two scum roleblockers, though I think the setup is balanced. Bankable deadlines were a good idea - I was actually considering running a speed game with these in about 2 years ago but never got round to it. I will say that I did get something useful out of the last part of day 1, as it was only then that I realised RedCoyote was town. I also became suspicious of Ectomancer, but just far too late.

I'm pretty surprised Patrick thought SC was obvtown tho. Didn't remember him saying that; don't see it at all.

The "obv" part is an exageration based on hindsight; I said a couple of times on day 1 that I was reading him as town, but not obvtown.

"damnit, why do I never reach a day 2 as town? Watching these guys is like drinking a bottle of cough medicine."

I don't know what this means, but I'm guessing it's not much of a compliment. XD

Just frustration at being out of the game and watching the town head towards a likely loss. As I think I mentioned in the QT though, I've really no idea whether I'd have done any better if I'd been alive. I was trying to decide between voting Jahudo or Ectomancer on day 2, but I have a sneaking feeling it might have been Jahudo. Must be something about the way he plays just gives me bad vibes.

All in all, I will say that Patrick's death did contribute to really the only suspicion of Incognito I had all game

I was rather pleased to see this going on, especially when he had hoped my kill would have the opposite effect (I think you took the WIFOM cab one stop too far, Rex ). I had hoped the same would happen with Ectomancer. I can agree that I wasn't pushing most of my reads very convincingly, mainly because I just wasn't very confident in them, especially the scum ones. I at one point tried to work out why Incognito was feeling odd, but nothing really came into words.

Seriously, don't feel too down about your play. I thought you did a good job creating the right conditions for us to find scum, and I never felt like you were too domineering over the game in a harmful way. You were also easy to read as town after a while.

Well done scum, well modded Hoopla. Rematch with same teams please.

[Incognito]

We had also sliced up the town in conversation the previous days enough to make it really unlikely that 5 town would get together and agree on 1 of us.

This is a good way of putting it. After reading the Green room, it seems like all the dead people were right about only one scum each, but never more than that. The same thing applied to the living players too.

Just also wanted to say that I really enjoyed having Ectomancer as a buddy (McG too but he was less involved in the game, obv). It was cool bouncing ideas off of each other in the QT thread and having a few disagreements with one another in the thread. I think it all helped keep me really involved and interested in the game.

I wanted to vote Incog most of the game, but every time I wrote something up it seemed like OMGUS. He framed his case on me really well, so that I couldn't argue the tells but just the conclusion.

I felt bad for constantly attacking you, but I guess that's what ya gotta do when you're scum.

[Incognito]

I was rather pleased to see this going on, especially when he had hoped my kill would have the opposite effect (I think you took the WIFOM cab one stop too far, Rex ).

Hmph, I thought it worked for Glork in SPQR and thought it might have had the same effect here. Then SerialClergyman started getting scarily accurate reads early in Day 2, and I had to try hard to discredit them and him somehow. He never backed down from them though, which I thought was pretty impressive since I really did think IAUN looked different here than when I played with him as town.

[Elmo]

I don't see what's weird about it or why that would be irritating. If two people have a pretty good history of playing with one another (like us) and have seen each other both as town and scum (again, like us), then it should go without saying that meta and gut feelings should play a more substantial role in each player being able to get a good read off the other assuming they're both town.

Well again, I don't particularly agree but I'm not going to debate that since it's tangential to what I'm saying; I didn't say this was irritating or weird. What is weird is what I said was weird, that you wanted me dead at night, yet didn't try to get me lynched - I don't get that. Also, we haven't played together much, I think three times?

And since you were the town one in this game, not me, and I know that your gut is usually pretty good, then it follows that I should be concerned about the fact that you just might read me correctly here. I don't see why that would be unclear to you.

This isn't unclear, I just disagree; as I said, I think you overrate me by quite a lot, and it's beginning to become irritating. My gut is not "usually pretty good". Goat had a much better chance of reading you as scum, for example.

I'm not talking about Day 3, obviously. I pretty clearly said "when McGriddle claimed", which happened on Day 2. Was Day 2 rushed for you guys? Maybe. But even so, I still think the standard procedure for determining the validity of a claim is to check for consistency. IMO, McGriddle's reaction to Ectomancer's claim did not look consistent with the type of reaction I would expect to come from someone who had a similar town role and that's why I've brought it up now.

Oh, missed that. I can't remember what it was, but I can't really see how that'd be true.

[Elmo]

Elmo, I would hazard that you never saw me as town because with you specifically, I did not try to appear town, and did things to make our relationship in game shaky.

Yeah, obv, but that's a bit different from being bemused why anyone else would see you as town, which is kinda what I'm getting at. I just draw a blank.

[Incognito]

What is weird is what I said was weird, that you wanted me dead at night, yet didn't try to get me lynched - I don't get that. Also, we haven't played together much, I think three times?

Oh, that's an easy one to explain then. Like I mentioned before, it was only Night paranoia (me thinking that you might change your opinion of me at some point during the game). When the Days went on though, and you didn't seem to be looking in my direction, I didn't feel the need to try and cause turbulence between us - I mean, there were plenty of points in-game particularly on Day 2 where we seemed in sync with voting and everything. I figured that keeping things copacetic between us was much less of a risk overall to me and my team in general than just trying to attack you and get you lynched, especially when I had other mislynch options available that you seemed to be agreeing with. I left the attacks of you to Ectomancer since he had already been doing that on Day 1. The net effect was that Ecto and I were never really attacking the same person, and I think that can help a lot in a scum game.

[Ectomancer]

Well, subtle reinforcements of ideas, phrasing designed to appeal to specific individuals, things that aren't meant for you. You weren't in the emotional state to be receptive to what others perceived as town. My plan was not to keep you around to endgame, so I didn't make the investment. Sorry if that reinforces the idea that people think you are better than you think you are.
If you need an example, I think you can probably see in game where I decided that I needed to cultivate RedCoyote to my "faction" and began trying to influence him favorably on my behalf by reinforcing some of his opinions and such. Prior to then I was nearing putting him on my "bad" list, but that wouldn't have divided the town the way I wanted, which is maybe an answer too. I wanted to divide the town, and you weren't in my faction.

[Elmo]

Like I mentioned before, it was only Night paranoia (me thinking that you might change your opinion of me at some point during the game).

Yeah, this is still the part I don't understand. I don't get how you can spend e.g. a whole day being pretty comfortable with me and then suddenly get scared when it's night for no reason. It looks like a complete non sequitur to me.

Well, subtle reinforcements of ideas, phrasing designed to appeal to specific individuals, things that aren't meant for you.

Okay, I guess what I meant was that I can't see any decent reason for people thinking you're town. I don't get the quoted, I wouldn't expect (m)any people to think you were town because of those, though it's tricky to talk in the abstract.

You weren't in the emotional state to be receptive to what others perceived as town.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. I.. really doubt my emotions had much to do with it, as far as I can see.

If you need an example, I think you can probably see in game where I decided that I needed to cultivate RedCoyote to my "faction" and began trying to influence him favorably on my behalf by reinforcing some of his opinions and such.

I haven't looked back, but I don't remember Red saying you were town at any point, so I'm not really sure what you mean by that. There didn't really end up being factions, as far as I can see.

[Incognito]

cuz:

A really good player will try to re-evaluate his or her own opinions at all times instead of just tunneling in on a certain set of hypotheses Day by Day.

and:

A

really good

even vaguely competent player will try to re-evaluate his or her own opinions at all times instead of just tunneling in on a certain set of hypotheses Day by Day.

ftfy imo :V

Meaning from one game Day to the next. After new information would crop up via the lynch or anything else, I just expected to somehow be put under the microscope by you at some point. You seem to be suggesting that I should have expected you to have the same read of me indefinitely. Why should I have expected that?

[Elmo]

I'm not saying you should (or that you shouldn't), but if you think that at night, you should probably also think that during the day. o_o

I mean I think it should be fairly clear it was unlikely, but again it's a tangent.

[Elmo]

I mean I think it should be fairly clear

it

a change of opinion was unlikely, but again it's a tangent.

[Incognito]

Well, yeah, obviously I'll think that during Daybreak but once I'm able to actually read what you're saying as the Day goes on, I'm then able to realize that there's no longer a need to be concerned anymore. It's just the natural paranoia that goes along with being scum; I'm quite positive I'm not alone in this.

And this all ties back to my own thoughts about your gut - even though you're now claiming to disagree that your gut is accurate (you certainly didn't say that in, say, Crackers, iirc), I happen to believe otherwise based on what I've seen come from you in past games.

[Goatrevolt]

Thinking that Elmo is town is a scum tell.

And yes, there is always paranoia that people who currently trust you are going to turn on you when you're scum. I don't think that's uncommon at all.

[Incognito]

Haha, for me in this game it might have been. I was beginning to think my defense of him was beginning to seem unnatural at certain points.

[popsofctown]

good modding.

[Goatrevolt]

Haha, for me in this game it might have been. I was beginning to think my defense of him was beginning to seem unnatural at certain points.

To some extent I was bothered by how closely you two were agreeing on everything, but I read Elmo pretty strongly as town and for some reason I connected the two of you in terms of alignments, so my read of Elmo as town somehow trickled down to you as well. I was pretty bamboozled this game, though.

[Elmo]

It's just the natural paranoia that goes along with being scum; I'm quite positive I'm not alone in this.

Huh, I don't think I've ever had that. That's kinda weird.

And this all ties back to my own thoughts about your gut - even though you're now claiming to disagree that your gut is accurate (you certainly didn't say that in, say, Crackers, iirc),

What did I say in Crackers? I'm pretty sure I've never, ever said I'm good at Mafia, because I've never thought that, so..? I mean, I generally avoid saying I'm bad in-game for obvious reasons.

I happen to believe otherwise based on what I've seen come from you in past games.

Well, uh, you're wrong. I mean it may be better than the alternative, but the end result is still generally pretty piss poor. I mean, look, where did it get me in this game? SC lynched, nice job. Can you point to anything good in this game? In any other game?

To some extent I was bothered by how closely you two were agreeing on everything, but I read Elmo pretty strongly as town and for some reason I connected the two of you in terms of alignments, so my read of Elmo as town somehow trickled down to you as well.

Did I do anything to imply I thought Incog was town? The thing is that I pretty much never think he's townish, so I generally dunno what to do when my read is "meh", and I just left him alone.

I guess the weird thing about this game is I'm not sure what I'd do differently, in context. Do you lot think I should have replaced out when I was thinking about it, Day 2-ish?

[Patrick]

On that basis, I would assume you're saying "in my experience, gut is innaccurate". Okay; but in my experience, gut is accurate. Moreover, in my experience,

my

gut is accurate, which is somewhat more important in deciding whether I listen to my gut or not.