Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[Hoopla]

Day 2, Vote Count 10

With ten alive, it takes

6

votes to lynch. Deadline is schedueled for 10:00AM GMT, May 9th <Countdown>.

popsofctown

-

5

(Jahudo, iamausername, SerialClergyman, Ectomancer, McGriddle)

Jahudo

-

3

(Elmo, Incognito, popsofctown)

Not Voting

-

2

(Goatrevolt, RedCoyote)

[popsofctown]

If he was a cop or similar he'd have claimed by now.

Falso.


I haven't finished reading the thread, but thought I'd give you guys more time to mull over my claim. I'm a weak doctor. Goatrevolt is town, unless I got roleblocked or bus driven or what have you.

You guys really need to quit power role hunting and start scumhunting. Self-preservation tells just kill your power roles. This same retarded thing happened to me in Majora's Mask Mafia when I got two instant daykills and a mask that made me a cop. Sigh...............

Thread needs a lot less fail.

[Goatrevolt]

Weak Doctor dies when protecting scum but survives and protects a town player? Correct me if wrong.

[Goatrevolt]

Please, nobody hammer. I'm thinking the role is likely true. Weak Doctor would be a fairly interesting/unusual fake claim.

Why did you choose me?

[RedCoyote]

Someone keeps bringing up whether or not someone is using Elmo's account to make posts. I just want to completely distance myself from any argument like that. I have no idea where it's coming from or what meaning is behind it. Elmo asked me at one point a while back why I used a female pronoun for him, and I explained that it was because I confused him for another player. I have never played with Elmo or the other player before, so the point is moot.

So how does this even come in contact with what I asked? What the hell do you mean that I'm "letting him go without question" as opposed to Incog like I'm supposed to be really suspicious but I've just somehow totally ignored his play?

Because you have. You said it yourself, "I don't want to lynch him... because I think he's town!

>cookiemonstertroll.png"

Now you want to step up and give some reasoning behind your stance?

So here's what pops actually said. But obviously instead of ask pops more about why he thinks my play is different to McGriddle's, you're effectively saying that because YOU think they look similar then they MUST look similar to pops and the only reason he'd think differently is because we're scum together. Do you not see a problem with that?

Not particularly. I don't buy that you've been playing differently then him. McGriddle says he thinks pops is scum, you say that you think he's town. Neither of you have given any real reason for this, you just state it and walk away.

Now

you want to step up, when pops' life is in danger no less, and get involved in the game? No dice, Elmo.

If anything it makes somewhat more sense for scum to OMGUS here.

I don't buy this at all. In light of pops' claim, his post makes a little more sense, but even without it I don't get your rationale.

Now, if I was in a bad mood, I'd just call you a hypocrite for the sake of it, but I won't because I had my cheerios today and I've been in roughly your position before and think it's a perfectly reasonable stance. But the problem is that you haven't evidenced a strong opinion either way, as far as I can see, and therefore I think both your play and pop's play is comparable in that respect.

I made it clear that I didn't like the NabNab lynch up until the claim, at which point I no longer had grounds to protest it. It was different in pops' case. He specifically said, "Well I have a bad gut read but... I dunno... I guess the lynch is a-okay. "

Except Jahudo posted right above pops, in 276 to pops' 277? And Incog voted in 266? wtf?

Point taken, but the whole idea is weak to begin with. Jahudo should sound the alarms over L-6? Get real, Elmo.

Self-preservation is entirely rational regardless of his alignment. This is just obviously not scummy in itself, I mean if you want I can show you a game where a townie didn't vote the other viable wagon who turned out to be the SK and I wanted to rip their head off.

No, not in itself. It's scummy when you don't agree with the lynch.

And you can bitch and moan about having to actually defend your positions all you want, it doesn't make me feel sympathy, guilt, or whatever other emotion you are trying to appeal to.

---

On the one hand, pops defended Goat pretty hard earlier in the day. On the other, I don't see any breadcrumbs. Call me old fashioned, but that's just how I resolve PR claims in my mind. Do you have any of those, pops?

[Ectomancer]

I had to look at the wiki and that's what it said. It also said alternate doctors are normally told that they are simply doctors.

I'm also aware of the convenience of his target being Goat.

[Jahudo]

So pops, were you hoping to die last night? You called Goat scummy at the end of day 1. Why did you protect him?

[Incognito]

Quotes please. As far as I can tell, you made those two points in part one in post 418, then in part 2 in 420 you don't mention Jahudo at all then in your next post at 446 you complain about ecto and I not commenting on your case.

Oh. Wow. Uh, when I said "those first two points are largely speculative" I was talking about the first two points that Jahudo mentioned here:

Here's all the reasoning I could find from Incog on me:

1)

I guess the thing that bothered me about Jahudo's #179 wasn't only the switch in opinion(s); it was also just the way it was done. I made a post asking for McGriddle to link to the popsofctown-game that he kept talking about and then only minutes later Jahudo mentioned the following:

Okay, I probably should have asked for the game from the start. Its' RedCoyote's Precision Mafia right? That had pops, mcgriddle and command points. The setup wasn't broken to start and based on the first few pages pops was taking more of a lead to discuss setup strategy, though that's still not comparable to scumhunting leader. But I can see McGriddle's side of the issue now.

I don't think I have any problem with McGriddle's play now.

The first part where he seems to imply that he didn't know what game it was all along just doesn't seem genuine to me. Considering the fact that my post was made at 5:18 my time and Jahudo's post was made less than 20 minutes after it, I just don't see how he could have

a)

found the game,

b)

analyzed it to see if he could figure out what McGriddle was talking about, and then

c)

change his opinion of him in such a short timeframe. Jahudo, when did you first figure out what game it was McG was referring to?

You had nothing to do with me making my post, and I only knew what to look for after McGriddle talked about "Command Points", so it was my first post after he explained the command points.

The actual game was not that important in the beginning because I thought he could explain it through their memory. So I asked if McGriddle if that game and this were comparable, which was the only part I needed to know if the tell on pops was good.

2)

Jahudo was giving McGriddle a bit of flak and stating that he basically agreed with the case that NabakovNabakov put together against him (McG), and he questioned me about why I disagreed. I stated why I disagreed and then asked McGriddle to link to the game he had been referring to all along. If Jahudo's scum, I could see him trying to ignore the game in question so that he could continue to push the case against McG. I don't think that would be able to happen any longer once the game came to the forefront though.

If you look at that specific post where I question why you disagreed, I was only talking about that one point. So it wasn't the whole McGriddle case, which I've stated point-by-point when I disagreed with something myself. And in this post, I say McGriddle hasn't explained his tell and I asked him to explain it. So I don't see how that's ignoring it. I was just allowing McGriddle to choose his own way of explaining it, whether that including linking to the other game or not. I would think he could explain how the two games were similar without linking to the game, but that would have depended on what he specifically said.

Judging by what you've written, I'm guessing that you thought I was talking about the first two points of my case in Post 418. Not at all, no.

So now it's my turn to play this card - I know for a fact YOU aren't stupid, and I know that you understand a facetious comment because I made one earlier, so I can't understand why you'd read this as anything other than facetious.

I can't see that as a facetious comment, no. I can't even see why I

should

interpret that as being a facetious comment when it followed his start-of-Day comments that said he had bad vibes about me. There's a vast difference between "which finger is the major one" and "Incog's posts are bad".

iamausername, were you joking around when you made that comment?

-~-~-~

I may have a few questions for pops after he responds to RC's question. Consider this a placeholder. As of right now though, I'm leaning towards believing the claim.

[Elmo]

So how does this even come in contact with what I asked? What the hell do you mean that I'm "letting him go without question" as opposed to Incog like I'm supposed to be really suspicious but I've just somehow totally ignored his play?

Because you have. You said it yourself, "I don't want to lynch him... because I think he's town!

So answer my question, how is saying I think he's town ignoring his play like you implied - what do you mean by "without question"? I would think that looking at his play and stating a clear conclusion was kind of the opposite of ignoring it. I've been asking you what you mean by that a couple of times in a row now.

But obviously instead of ask pops more about why he thinks my play is different to McGriddle's, you're effectively saying that because YOU think they look similar then they MUST look similar to pops and the only reason he'd think differently is because we're scum together. Do you not see a problem with that?

Not particularly. I don't buy that you've been playing differently then him.

That's kind of the point. It matters whether pops might genuinely think that, not whether you think that or even if it's actually true. You're effectively saying, I think this isn't true, therefore when pops says this is true pops must be lying. That's bad, because you haven't attempted to figure out how pops might think that.

If anything it makes somewhat more sense for scum to OMGUS here.

I don't buy this at all. In light of pops' claim, his post makes a little more sense, but even without it I don't get your rationale.

If scum's being attacked by a townie, it makes more sense for the scum to attack them back rather than say they think they're town. That kind of interaction is highly unlikely to get Goat to stop attacking him, but it makes it harder for pops to counter-attack. In fact, it's pretty uncommon for scum to buddy up with people who're attacking them in my experience, it's arguably the worst time to try that because they're already on their guard and buddying works best when it's innocuous.

Also I have bad feelings about Incog, but I haven't yet figured out why. I'll let you know if I do.

Zeez bad feeliks you haff, are zey from ze stomack or zee liveer?

Haha, I <3 Elmo.

Now, something like this? This I could potentially see as buddying, for example.

I made it clear that I didn't like the NabNab lynch up until the claim, at which point I no longer had grounds to protest it. It was different in pops' case. He specifically said, "Well I have a bad gut read but... I dunno... I guess the lynch is a-okay. "

Well, here's what I found:

I don't know what I think of Naba btw, besides his last few posts which aren't great. I'll reread him if you guys don't lynch him on your own, but it looks like y'all are going to.

I don't have a read on naba naba, besides his last one or two posts. Other than that, pretty much null on him. Don't know where you get this massive naba gut read from.

That was six days ago. He did bug my gut back then, doesn't do so now. *shrug*

and I really can't find anything that matches your characterisation of his stance. Possibly it's there, but I looked at the posts you linked in your case summary. His general stance looks similar to yours, in that you both have essentially null reads on NabNab, but you take issue with the mechanics of the wagon. I don't think it's quite fair to say you objected to NabNab's lynch, more like you objected to the way in which the wagon progressed.

Jahudo should sound the alarms over L-6? Get real, Elmo.

I don't know why you're saying that, I don't particularly agree with the point, and I think I just said that. He didn't say Jahudo should sound the alarms or panic, just offer up some kind of response, which would (pretty clearly) be the pro-town thing to do. I think it's a reasonable, if somewhat thin, point of view; that is, I can perfectly well see pops-town saying that, and hence I don't think it's scummy. Personally, I would have mildly expected Jahudo to do so but don't think the lack of such is scummy.

No, not in itself. It's scummy when you don't agree with the lynch.

No, it's not. You know you have zero chance of being scum, and someone else, even picked completely at random has a greater than zero chance. Any chance at hitting scum is better than none. Someone should absolutely prefer any lynch in the game (other than a confirmed innocent or such) to their own.

And you can bitch and moan about having to actually defend your positions all you want, it doesn't make me feel sympathy, guilt, or whatever other emotion you are trying to appeal to.

I haven't complained about that. I.. really don't care what you feel.

[popsofctown]

still havent fully checked the thread, hanging out with buds. Figured you'd want to know why I protected GR.


When Incog mentioned a game that revolved around Weak Doctors and Hiders early in the game, I jumped on it as an opportunity to breadcrumb. I then made a post that mentioned hypoclaiming is good, and then used the word twilight 3 times.


At the end of Day 1 Patrick snuggled the hammer in his post and I missed it. So although I intended to do first letter of each word crumbing in twilight to be noticed if I die protecting, i only had a one normal post posted in twilight, primarily directed at GR. Since the twilight twilight twilight post might have been caught, I figured someone might interpret that to be my hypoclaim, so I went ahead and made sure my night action matched the hypoclaim.

Scummy and townish targets for weak doctoring both have pretty good returns, so it was nbd. You can chain together several conf innocents if you target a townish target, or nail an early scum if it's a scummy target. And if it is a townish target you can save them from death. So i felt it was certainly worth it to make sure my actions matched my crumbs.

[Jahudo]

And here I thought that twilight rant was fluff. I can taste the egg on my face.

I don't know who I want to lynch, to be honest. But I don't think pops is the right lynch today. So I'll unvote for now.

unvote

[Incognito]

So yeah, the first thing that I thought of after you claimed Weak Doc was the Weak M.D. reference, and I was gonna ask if the "vote: twilight" post was some kind of breadcrumb that you made for us to look towards your twilight posts to see who your Night 1 target might be. Especially since I looked back and noticed that your very last D1 post was directed at GR, the person you now claim to have protected too.

Did you really forget where it was that you came across me prior to this game though? Because I know that if *I* was ever given the role of Weak Doc, I'd immediately be reminded of that game.

[popsofctown]

I can't remember if i genuinely couldn't remember at all, or was half sure and made you remind me so i could breadcrumb.

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh all around.

Not worth lynching Pops. Normally a claim with an innocent on the guy we just spent days working out was almost certainly town would have me jumping at the leash, but a weak doc should take care of itself tonight, either by bullet or by finding scum.

Where to now? Zzz.

unvote

Probably Jahudo or McGriddle, I guess.

[SerialClergyman]

Incog - yes, I didn't realise you were referring to his points, not your own, communication error.

[iamausername]

So, we've got, what, three days to deadline, with the pops wagon collapsing from his claim, and no one commited to anything else besides Jahudo? Yeah, there's no way I see this lynch not defaulting to Jahudo without a claim. So we'd best get that out of the way right now so we have at least a little bit of time to figure out who we're actually lynching.

We (that is, Jahudo and I) are masons. So yeah, that stuff about Jahudo being an 'easy target' was frankly absolute bollocks, and I knew it. If my role PM didn't explicitly tell me that he is, I probably wouldn't think Jahudo was town here, which makes it kind of difficult to defend him in a convincing way.

Unvote, Vote: McGriddle

for now, I guess. It is definitely high time I got around to figuring out if I have a case on Incog though. Gonna start working on that right now.

Also wondering if it is a good idea for pops to reveal his target ahead of time here. On the whole, I think it is, but I'm sure there are angles that I'm not thinking of here.

[Jahudo]

QFT. Confirmed-to-each-other-town masons, and you don't know how long I've been wanting to get that out in the open. This role has been pretty uncomfortable so far, trying to lay low (which i guess is "backgroudsy") so we could survive when there's only a few people left in the game and masons are more valuable.

McGriddle could be a good lynch for his Nab and Pops hops. I think real-life could account for some of it, but maybe not all of it?

[SerialClergyman]

Well, if pops reveals his target and then dies it's not ideal. If he dies AND someone else dies that's fine, but you know zz.

The other thing worth noting is scum probably have roles, given the town role cop, and a blocker might lead to some seriously unfortunate innocent assumptions. Pops aims at scum, scum roleblock him, pops says scum is confirmed innocent becauseh e didn't die.

On the whole, I'm thinking pops should target any non-mason pair.

I believe the masons, by the by. I was wondering where your town reason on Jahudo was coming from iam lol...

McGriddle seems to me to be the best lynch. If there are 3 scum then I'm wrong on at least 1 town read or pops is scum. Will have to rethink a bit.

What's your suspect list, Jahudo?

[Ectomancer]

Alrighty then, time to break things down:

NabakovNabakov - 7 (Elmo, Goatrevolt, SerialClergyman, iamausername, McGriddle, Incognito, Patrick)

popsofctown - 5 (Jahudo, iamausername, SerialClergyman, Ectomancer, McGriddle)

Going to make some assumptions here. Nab's wagon didn't go down without scum on it. Pop's wagon was already loaded up with scum, or the wagon tasted too bad too fast for them to jump on, but I am going to bargain at least one there. Scum on the first wagon could have been hesitant to also join the 2nd wagon.

First wagon we eliminate Patrick, Goat, and Iam.
Second wagon we eliminate Jahudo, Iam.
Elmo and Ecto go into a grab bag.
That leaves us with SC and McGriddle as components of both wagons, and oddly enough in the same positions as well on those wagons. I'm tempted to point out a scum in SC choosing the good wagon to push, and the partially inactive McGriddle to come along later and back it up as it grows.

That of course depends upon the truth of what's been said. I'm going to

unvote

, but I reserve my right to continue doubting Pop's. The

only

reason I am not keeping up the push to lynch him today is that it smacks of too much effort for a scum stunt to be scummy, then breadcrumb, then be scummy some more so you can pull out your fake claim. Smacks of it, but doesn't mean he wouldn't.

Jahudo and Iam is also interesting to be trusting, but I tend to believe it myself because of my Jahudo read than Iam.

Also something else to take into consideration. I wasn't sure how or when the best time would be for this, partly because 2 different people could assume they were responsible for 2 different reasons and make unfounded proclamations. However, with a Doc in the open, the other possibility, if existing, now knows for certain and so could recognize their folly of assumption. I don't know however, if it would be a good thing to speak out and I hope they have the wit to make the proper play themselves. If none speaks, then we will take the obvious alternative with a grain of salt, but being a weak Doc instead of a regular one actually clears up at least one assumption that could have been mistaken.

To wit, I killed Patrick. Alas, I do not possess the means to dispose of another. (1-shot) I regret the results, but after I was declared town early on, I unjustly began to fear for being NK'd. Elmo

was

my target, but as I said, I was poring it over and decided instead that he was vanilla trying to lure the NK with his mysteriousness and left him alone.

I nearly got myself into trouble with Goat the next morning. I wasn't thinking I guess because I had killers remorse, but I think my claim here will also help explain this little comment:

I was reading Patrick's hammer post during the night, not entirely settled with it.

Basically trying to justify being wrong.

[popsofctown]

We are massclaiming? What is this I don't even....

If Ectomancer really is a one shot vig, then that means Goatrevolt was actually targetted for the kill last night. (probably) . Take from that what you will, I don't actually see use in that info.

unvote, vote McGriddle

He's simply practically not here and has a bad Ivoting record. I don't know what I get from his posts themselves. (my meta on him from precision mafia is pretty antitown already]

I wouldn't assume scum was on the Nabnab wagon for sure. Stupidity is cheap. This is coming from someone who wasn't on it.

[SerialClergyman]

This is actually fantastic info, and it massively backs up pops' claim. I don't know why Ecto isn't more willing to believe that a protect on Goat is legit given he knew that the scum missed a kill.

Ok - so lets run with this.

Ecto is 1-shot vig (Don't know why he'd claim this otherwise, no real reason to believe it other than it being a weird scum gambit, I guess.)
Pops is weak doc (hard not to believe if Ecto is telling the truth.)
Goat is town (was aimed at by mafia probably)
Jahudo is mason
Iam is mason.

Provided there are no fake claims there, and it seems to fit in OK, that's a lot of town right there. The non-confirmeds are therefore:

SC, McGriddle, Elmo, Incog and Red.

If the claims are correct we can almost PoE this baby down.

Oh, unless Ecto is a SK. THat'd be lame.

vote McGriddle

[SerialClergyman]

Before I forget - this explains Patrick's death, which I'd always thought was a weird scum choice. That improves incog's position a bit.

Also, it makes Red's attack on Goat look a little more scum-possible. From a scum perspective, they tried to kill Goat, it didn't work and there was another kill. That could well look like a NK-immune SK or NK-immune 2nd mafia. So it makes more sense for Red to come into d2 swinging at goat.

[Goatrevolt]

Wow.

[Goatrevolt]

Well that explains the weird feeling I had that Pops was trying to buddy up to me today, and my lack of understanding for why he didn't suspect me.

The masons are probably town. I'm paranoid that it's a gambit, but I will have to check back at their play and see how it adds up. I'm also paranoid that we're looking at too much town power. Vig, Weak Doc, Role Cop, Confirmed Mason pair.

Ectomancer's claim is oddly timed, and I agree that it's weird he would be so skeptical of a doc claim knowing full well that a NK was thwarted if he is indeed a town vig.

If I legitimately was protected from a NK, then that is pretty funny because I thought there was no way I was getting NKed and was almost hoping for such because of how poor my reads on the game were.

Vote RedCoyote

This is my preferred lynch. Clergyman is 2nd, McGriddle is 3rd.

--------------------------------

I want pops to announce his target in advance. I think this is necessary for learning something useful out of it, even if he dies. And yes, it could be roleblocked or any number of different things, but that information has a way of working itself out by the end of the game. More information the better here. Pops targeting someone random and dying at night would tell us nothing of value. My personal picks would be Incognito and Elmo.

I'm wondering why I was chosen to be NKed, assuming Ecto/Pops are to be believed. I thought I was a pretty unlikely choice, all things considered.

[RedCoyote]

It would make it much more a relief to take all these claims and go with them. The one player I'm trying desperately to understand is Ecto. I'm trying to understand scum motivations behind his claim, because it does seem a bit odd that he didn't give pops a high five the moment pops claimed. I do hate to be the one to splash cold water on the idea that we're having a confirmation party here, but I'm still taking Ecto's claim with a grain of salt.

pops' claim is easier to swallow, as he has a useful power.

Elmo would probably be my go to lynch, but I've been wanting a McGriddle lynch since early in D1. This is a prime opportunity to get rid of him, having possibly already used up our only Vig shot.

Vote: McGriddle