Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[Hoopla]

Day 2, Vote Count 8

With ten alive, it takes

6

votes to lynch. Deadline is schedueled for 10:00AM GMT, May 9th <Countdown>.

popsofctown

-

5

(Jahudo, iamausername, SerialClergyman, Ectomancer, McGriddle)

Jahudo

-

3

(Elmo, Incognito, popsofctown)

Not Voting

-

2

(Goatrevolt, RedCoyote)

[Ectomancer]

Bits have been added to some quotes for hopefully obv reasons.

Overreaction/Buddying with Goat

amounts to

Goatrevolt's [weak sauce] reasons are independent of Nabakanov's alignment tbh. He's still hung up on the early game joke and thinks I was lying about not noticing an unvote, and doesn't like when I post fluff.

Wrong doesn't equal scum. GR doesn't scumhunt the way you would but he's trying as hard/harder than you are. Wouldn't you rather lynch a troll sleeping in the back of the nabakov haywagon?

This is a first for me. pops coming to bat for the player that just voted him, clarifying why it is Goat finds him scummy.

It turns out that this makes it easier to defend himself, which you snipped off when you quoted him. It's easy to defend yourself against Goat's stated reasons, it's hard to defend links someone's drawn partially based on what

they

did. Alongside that, he thinks Goat's town and expressly said so, and I don't see any reason presented to think it's buddying rather than genuinely thinking he's got it wrong. If anything it makes somewhat more sense for scum to OMGUS here.

Thanks for providing another example of what I'm talking about with Pop's, except, of course, your interpretation differs from mine. You say "I don't see it" and I say "Right there it is". Also, before you get this part wrong too, buddying is not the same as establishing ties.

[Ectomancer]

Wouldn't you rather lynch a troll sleeping in the back of the nabakov haywagon?

Yet you've pointed fingers everywhere

but

the Nab wagon. Not very genuine today are you?

[Elmo]

Thanks for providing another example of what I'm talking about with Pop's, except, of course, your interpretation differs from mine. You say "I don't see it" and I say "Right there it is". Also, before you get this part wrong too, buddying is not the same as establishing ties.

I don't think I've responded to what you said? I mean, I quoted Red, I'm responding to Red. It's the kind of thing where I have to go back and look in context, and the site was horrible for the past few days.

[Ectomancer]

No, you quoted Red quoting Pops and illustrated an example of the Pop's/Goat link that was built by Pops. If you want a trite little term for it, you could call it "bussing a townie" or a reverse bus.

[Ectomancer]

Oh yeah, on "Elmo".
Yesterday I said he wasn't being him and voted.
Last night I decided he was probably playing the way he was because he is vanilla trying to draw a nightkill by being "mysterious"
Today, after that little Freudian slip that revealed you aren't actually Elmo, I don't know what to think, except I dislike dishonesty, even as a meta thing. It does explain my day 1 read on you however, and renders my night speculation baseless and useless when it was based upon Elmo being Elmo.

Requoted for those who missed that little gem:

My suspicion doesn't rest on Jahudo's post count, it rests on "I think he's scum". Him posting less than usual supports that. It turns out that I have a town read on Elmo and McGriddle and a scum read on Jahudo, so I am wanting to lynch him more than McGriddle / Elmo. derp derp derp.

[iamausername]

If you think Jahudo's lurking is the major component of the case against him, then obviously you don't understand the case against Jahudo.

Well, it sure would be nice if someone could explain what I'm missing then. Because from this explanation:

Right now, I'm voting Jahudo because yes, I do think he's been a bit lurky so far, and I've just been getting a backgroundsy type of feel from his posting. I don't know how to elaborate it any better than that - he's been asking questions and stuff yes, but the impression that I've been getting is that he's just asking them for the sake of asking them; it just doesn't feel genuine to me. Also there was the issue I brought up about his turnaround on McGriddle which he did try and explain, but I still just can't shake my initial feeling about it.

it sure seems like lurking is a pretty significant component.

Even if we ignore that, if pops is town like I've been beginning to think he is, why would scum need to push suspicion onto other low-content posters when they could just hop onto the pops wagon just like everyone else seems to have done?

The point is not about what hypothetical Jahudo scumbuddies will be doing with their votes, it's about what they'll be trying to do with the votes of the town players who are voting their buddy.

I mean, I think pops is town, okay, people disagree. But moreso I'm really struggling to see any legit reasoning for why he's particularly suspicious.

Let me reiterate then. pops' behaviour around the NabNab wagon does not fit, at all, with the opinions he has stated elsewhere. He made a big deal about how Jahudo was super scummy for ignoring a single vote, but didn't seem to care about NabNab ignoring

five

. He has provided no explanation for this.

He also made a big deal about Jahudo (and SC) giving reads without explaining their reasoning. But he didn't seem to care about the fact that pretty much everyone on the NabNab wagon was not explaining their reasoning for being on it.

In fact, he didn't seem to care about the NabNab wagon at all. I don't see how a player can be hovering around the L-2 mark for a good portion of a day, and someone else can have no opinion on that fact whatsoever. Besides this bit fairly early on:

I also hate Nabanab as much as everyone else seems to, but it's been gut and I don't get the articulated reasons atm

(which, by the way, sure looks a lot like this:

I don't really like the Nabakov wagon, except for one point that I do like. Hopefully this makes me look good if the wagon pull through on its own, but gives me an excuse to vote if it needs help.

)

pops pretty much said nothing about NabNab all day, up until the first time I presented this case. Then he gave this explanation:

I don't know what anyone is attacking Nabakov for. I figured reasoning is there, but I'm too lazy to go look at it, or didn't get it first read through. I've said this before, I only feel that I owe a thread one readthrough when I commit to a game. If I saw a fallacious attack on Naba, I'd go to bat on it, but I didn't notice one. I can't complain that there aren't reasons for attacking him because I'm not sure there aren't any.

which, basically, I do not buy in the slightest. I can't see how a town player could be content to sit there and watch someone get lynched that they don't get the case on and say "oh well, I'm sure they have good reasons". That seems like it would require an untenable level of trust in an untenable number of people.

also, there's the part where pops attacks Jahudo for ignoring Incog's attacks on him, then when he does try to address them, pops goes "Aha! So you admit you were ignoring them!" and doesn't say anything about Jahudo's actual responses. It shows that he didn't actually care about the points that Jahudo was ignoring, he just cared that the fact that Jahudo was ignoring them would allow him to play a trap card.

Those are my major issues with pops, there are a few more minor points dotted about too, if you care to look.

it almost looks like he's just trying to intimidate people off of joining the Jah-wagon.

I love it when people imply I'm doing something in a subtle and devious way when in fact I am being incredibly brazen about doing that thing. And by "love", I mean "think it is scummy".

Yes, when I said "don't vote Jahudo, he is town" I was, in fact, trying to direct people away from the Jahudo wagon. How on earth did you unravel my unbreakable secret code?

Where are SerialClergyman and Iamusername? Riding out the day?

You know, no one ever answered this question when I asked it yesterday:

If a town player believes they have caught scum, and enough of the town agrees that that scum looks to be heading for the lynch, then what exactly are they supposed to while waiting for someone to get around to dropping the hammer?

I never said Jahudo was an "easy wagon" -- iamausername did.

Actually, I said "easy target". Not quite the same.

I think iamausername keeps his name invisible.

Yeah, I get accused of lurking enough as it is. If they saw how often I was actually on, I'd never hear the end of it.

What's worse is that the whole argument is that I'm scummy because I didn't want to lynch a townie.

strawman.jpg

Where's your day 2 mislynch? Unless you are accusing me of trying to wagon Patrick day 2, you can't use that argument. How the sam hill are you gonna appeal to your own town flip to defend yourself?

Isn't he more appealing to his own town flip to attack you than to defend himself?

Oh yeah, on "Elmo".
Yesterday I said he wasn't being him and voted.
Last night I decided he was probably playing the way he was because he is vanilla trying to draw a nightkill by being "mysterious"
Today, after that little Freudian slip that revealed you aren't actually Elmo, I don't know what to think, except I dislike dishonesty, even as a meta thing. It does explain my day 1 read on you however, and renders my night speculation baseless and useless when it was based upon Elmo being Elmo.

Requoted for those who missed that little gem:

My suspicion doesn't rest on Jahudo's post count, it rests on "I think he's scum". Him posting less than usual supports that. It turns out that I have a town read on Elmo and McGriddle and a scum read on Jahudo, so I am wanting to lynch him more than McGriddle / Elmo. derp derp derp.

Wait, you were actually serious about that? WTF? Even if someone else was using Elmo's account, how would that make any sense? What, did this mysterious other somehow forget that Elmo's posts were actually made by them?

This is obviously Elmo being facetious about how he's not going to want to lynch himself. There's not even a question about that. I don't know what is going on in your brain that you could possibly see anything else in it.

[Ectomancer]

Yeah. I think someone else, a friend of his, is using Elmo's account to play this game. Hydra maybe? It would be common courtesy to reveal it, if nothing else.

[Ectomancer]

[ What, did this mysterious other somehow forget that Elmo's posts were actually made by them?

]

Durhh. One wonders how you figure things out without being told specifically if you are unable to make inferences from events around you

[iamausername]

Seriously, still? You think that someone else is posting from Elmo's account, and has been doing so for the entire game, and went back and read the game and thought "hey this Elmo guy seems pro-town", forgetting that the posts they are reading are posts that they typed themself? You honestly think that is the only plausible explanation for Elmo to say "I have a town read on Elmo"? Am I being punked?

[iamausername]

RedCoyote:
SerialClergyman:
Incognito:
Goatrevolt:
Jahudo:
popsofctown:
iamausername:
Elmo:
Ectomancer:
McGriddle:

Incognito included himself in this list. Is he also secretly somebody else posting under Incognito's account?

[iamausername]

In conclusion; WHAT?

[Incognito]

RedCoyote, there's a HUGE difference between saying Jahudo feels background-ish back in post

418

and saying that in our

current

game-state, nobody feels under the radar to me. You can look back prior to my post 418, and you'll probably notice that not a single person was talking about Jahudo anytime before I mentioned that I was getting a bad feeling about him. So, in effect, I brought Jahudo from being under the radar to the attention of everyone else. It was only then that people began commenting on their own bad feelings about him.

We are talking about the present right? Yes? So as of right now, I'd argue that there is practically nobody who is "under the radar" since everyone has endured at least some kind of scrutiny in this game. Back then, that obviously wasn't the case.

-~-~

I've only been able to skim the last page and a half but uh, Ectomancer, what in the world are you talking about? I originally thought you were kidding about the Elmo thing but you're actually serious?

@McGriddle:

What's your current status? Are you still in the hospital?





Will comment on the rest of the stuff once I get back from a big exam study session.

[Jahudo]

I'd like to know if Elmo and Incognito have self-read themselves in other games. That might clear up if this is something they'd naturally do to put some levity into their game. But if that's the case, why is it needed?

[Incognito]

Actually, RedCoyote, before this point gets even more confused I think I see the source of confusion:

RedCoyote, there's a HUGE difference between saying Jahudo feels background-ish back in post

418

and saying that in our

current

game-state, nobody feels under the radar to me. You can look back prior to my post 418, and you'll probably notice that not a single person was talking about Jahudo anytime before I mentioned that I was getting a bad feeling about him. So, in effect, I brought Jahudo from being under the radar to the attention of everyone else. It was only then that people began commenting on their own bad feelings about him.

When I was explaining the above, I thought the post 418 that you were mentioning was the first post that I mentioned that Jahudo felt background-ish to me, but it wasn't. I first mentioned that way back in post 166 instead. I was using the word "background-ish" to mean something other than "under the radar" in my 418 - I was basically trying to say that Jahudo's play was giving me the feeling that he was just trying to seem active without actually being active. Hopefully that clears up the confusion.

@Jahudo:

I have done some self-reading in the past yeah but in this case, that's not why I gave myself a ":D " rating here. I did it for poops and giggles.

[Ectomancer]

In conclusion; WHAT?

In conclusion, I like people to be upfront about things like that. Explanation/Summary what? It means I scrap what I think I know about Elmo and play him as somebody's alt and forget about "What Elmo would do".

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh, so many words over red herrings. I think the theory that someone may be town because noone is voting them is pure rubbish, but for my scum game I hope it proliferates. And then there was an argument about that assertion that lasted a page, holy hell. This thing with Elmo is no different, a) I don't really care who's behind the face and b) I sincerely doubt that the quoted passage means it's not really elmo.

So the game has opened up to have two pretty distinct sides, I think. Irritatingly for me, two of my suspects are on each side (Jahudo and McGriddle are anti-pops, Pops and Incog are pro-pops). Thankfully for me, the wagons are both on my suspects. Goat and Red both not planting down a vote is making this drag a little, I'm not quite sure what they're trying to achieve at the moment. It doesn't look like they are in the throes of a tough decision.

Goat - I know you called me out for content, but I don't know why. What do you need to place a vote (PS, it's a few posts up in obvtown iam's case)

Incog, mafia opens as one of the tabs when I open my home internet browser, so I often appear to be online when I'm not actually around and posting. I'm sure you won't find any posts in the last few days on site, i haven't mafia'd since the weekend (excluding last night promising this post.)

Actually, why are we still having this talk? Looking at the vote count and looking at Red's 539. Where's the hammer, son?

[SerialClergyman]

It's also worth pointing out that this:

If I were to focus on stuff that I haven't liked from Today though, I'd say that I have trouble with your "solid town" read on iamausername - I seriously can't see how anyone can be reading him in that way at this point in the game. SerialClergyman cited meta for his reasoning which baffles me - I too have played games with IAUN and have read others of his, and I haven't in any way been able to say that this definitely feels like iamausername-town. So really, the town read of IAUN coming from the both of you makes me feel like it could be contrived.

is a pretty cheap shot, given I've specifically had this conversation with you and gave examples of the non-meta reasons for my read. Remember this conversation?

re: iam - I'm pretty sure he's town. I mentioned this a while ago, at the end of D1, but I'm picking up what he's putting down. I've played a lot with him, and while he's definitely a good enough player to fool me, I feel like he's not this game. I think he's been pretty open with his reads despite a low post count and he's put forward ideas that aren't really in keeping with a scum agenda. Plus his case on pops was the best case of the game, imo.

I agree that the pops-case he put forth was pretty solid, but that doesn't explain why that would make him town. Good scum can easily put together a solid case against anyone, so, imo, a solid case isn't a real reason to feel like someone's town. I agree that having experience playing with another player is different, yes, and that might lend you the ability to read a given player better than players who are unfamiliar with said player, but my meta with iamausername suggests that his play here doesn't completely fall in line with the type of play I've seen come from him as town. So I'm curious as to why you feel differently about that. Also, I don't understand the "putting forth ideas that don't fit a scum agenda" thing; he planted his vote on NabNab Day 1 and has so far placed his vote on popsofctown but hasn't followed up yet. NabNab ended up being a mislynch, and pops hasn't flipped yet, so I don't see how you've been able to determine that iamausername's agenda is a town-driven one given that there's simply not much there from him as of yet.

'Scum can make cases too'

Seriously? What kind of comment is that? Clearly scum can do pro-town things and town can do pro-scum things, that's the point of the game. But people who quickhammer are morel ikely to be scum, and people who make good, solid cases are more likely to be town.

Throughout his posts he's done a few things that scum had no reason to do. Agreeing with my read on Ecto-town and defending McGriddle from his playing of the newbie card by questioning the question are two that stand out in memory.

So you know, him providing a solid case (in your words) and two specific examples of townie behaviour later, and you're still saying my support of him is some contrived meta read. Poor form imo.

[Goatrevolt]

For one, pops hasn't claimed yet, which he should. Secondly, the "I'm not posting anymore because I'm already voting pops who is probably going to be lynched" is dumb. You had no problem continuing to post day 1 when you were on Nabakov's wagon in the same manner.

As for what you can say, well you can try to convince people to join the wagon if you feel so strongly about it. Or you can argue against opposing wagons, or comment on things people have said, etc. I'm on the popular wagon on someone I think is scum so I have no need to post is one of the dumbest things I have heard in a mafia game. Find other scum. Do something useful.

SC: You're going to need to explain why Iam is obv. town. He is the biggest lurker in this game behind McGriddle, and while he's had some good points from time to time, nothing he's said has been earth shattering or something I think is really that unlikely to come from scum.

Right now there is a strong push for pops and a good strong push against Jahudo. If we lynch wrong today, assuming 3 scum and a successful kill tonight, we'd be facing down lylo tomorrow. While I haven't particularly found pops pro-town, I'm definitely thrown off by bad votes on his wagon, the strong defense/opposition to the opposing wagon, and the insistence that we have to lynch pops today.

Serial Clergyman for one plays by town tells, has 4 suspects, suggests he is fine lynching any of them, but is only pushing for pops and seems very set on a pops lynch. That doesn't jive. That strikes me exactly as the kind of scum play to get a mislynch and drive the game into LYLO. The entire game, save myself, Incog, Elmo seems driven towards the idea of lynching pops. I am fairly certain Incognito is town at this point. He's definitely played the most pro-town game of anyone, so if he's scum then we're in pretty deep shit as it is. Elmo, I an strongly leaning town on. He's called out and jumped on a lot of things that have struck me as suspicious as well. It feels like he genuinely is pursuing things that jump out at him.

Everyone who I think has a reasonable shot at being scum is either Pops himself or on the Pops wagon. If Pops is scum, then the other scum are dead set on busing him as they've made no move to push alternative wagons.

If pops is scum, then McGriddle is probably town. McGriddle called out pops really early in the game as either a power role or scum. I just don't see that coming from a scum buddy at that stage in the game. I still believe Jahudo and Pops can be scum together, as their fight while ignoring Nabakov at the end of day 1 strikes me as scum distancing while a townie goes down. Ectomancer has had an interesting interaction with pops this game. He jumped on pops early when I did, supporting my gut read (maybe with a gut read of his own) but backed off when I did. Again today, he has jumped on pops based on the "reverse townie bus" argument, which I understand, but still find it odd how he maneuvered that. Clergyman makes sense as a buddy. Iam too, even though he has the case against pops. His play this game hasn't really struck me as the kind of "townie who truly believes what he's pushing" kind of play, so I'm not ready to clear him if pops is scum.

If pops is town, then Jahudo is more likely to be scum based on the strong push to get Pops lynched today rather than Jahudo. Clergyman is probably scum as well. Beyond that I don't know. I've only read a few pages of day 1, but I plan on reading more of that tonight.

[SerialClergyman]

Incog is the most pro-town player? You must have your head screwed on backwards. ><

Pops is my lynch of choice. I have 4 people where the scum can reside, but that doesn't make them equal.

The point is I don't know what you want me to comment ON. I've told you very openly my reads and why, I've voted my top suspect and I want him lynched. I don't even care about his claim, I doubt it'd make me radically change my mind. If he was a cop or similar he'd have claimed by now.

What I think you should do is stop getting yourself messed up in diagrams about who is with who on what condition and find someone you think is scummy and vote them.

[Goatrevolt]

I don't have a really strong scum read right now or else I would.

What do you find suspicious about Incog? The only thing I have against him is Patrick's death, but that points more at Jahudo than Incog.

Have you been avoiding the thread because you haven't checked it or because you simply don't have anything to comment on? On one hand you say that you haven't done anything with mafia over the weekend, but here you are arguing that you don't have anything to comment on. There are plenty of things for you to comment on. Elmo, Red's post where he wants pops to claim, Incog v. Jahudo, how you feel about Pops recent posts, etc.

My "diagrams" are based on the seemingly foregone conclusion that pops is lynched today. It is what I think if he ends up as scum, or if he ends up as town.

As for the wagon on pops, it's got a lot of force behind it, but not a lot of meat. It feels very similar to the Nab wagon, which I was guilty of being on, and it has a lot of the same people pushing it. I'm very wary of the end result, despite not feeling pops as particularly townie on his own merits.

[SerialClergyman]

I haven't been avoiding the thread at all, I just haven't been here. What I was talking about was that I don't get you. You spent a post calling me out (and possibly iam as well from memory) for not posting when I have been open with my reads and my vote on my top suspect. This is a good place to be as scum. At the moment, I have about a million conditionals, no vote and no strong suspects from you, and I think rather than concerning yourself with my posting frequency you should go get that done.

And your hypotheticals aren't going to be useful to anyone because you don't take a decent stand. For example - Jahudo is a possible pops buddy, their fight strikes me as scum distancing as a townie goes down. If pops is town though, Jahudo is more likely to be scum based on the strong push to get Pops lynched today.
Clergyman makes sense as a pops buddy. (??)
If pops is town, Clergyman is probably scum as well.

In fact, if pops is town, your ONLY reads are two people who you think would be scum if he's scum! That is genius on a stick right there.

As for your list of things to comment on, I think I've either commented on it or find it irrelevent. If my read on Elmo went from town to scum, you'd know about it. It hasn't.

And while we're on the subject, how could you possibly view incog as more town than iam? Iam has been consistent, direct, willing to look at town reads and gut reads etc. He's made two of the best cases the game has seen. He doesn't seem concerned about himself or any scumbuddies facing suspicion.

Incog has made one 'case' located here which was hardly much of anything - it starts by saying the first two points are speculative then doesn't continue with any more!

He slunk onto the Nab wagon late after it was looking like stalling, while supporting it without voting on it previously. Since his Jahudo 'case' he's done very little, but has had several cheap shots (the one on me saying my iam read was meta alone, the one on iam about iam's non-existant case on incog, switching off jahudo to vote iam without a case WHILE complaining about iam not having a case on him etc etc)

Now I'm not sure if I can see Incog/pops, and I don't know if Incog is scum, but to me there's no way to view incog as the most pro-town player in the game.

[SerialClergyman]

Also, I remember checking to see if the wagons were ismilar to D1 (because I agree there is a similar feel to this lull period) and they aren't, really.

D1: Elmo, Goatrevolt, SerialClergyman, iamausername, McGriddle, Incognito, Patrick

D2: Jahudo, iamausername, SerialClergyman, Ectomancer, McGriddle

So Serial, Iam and McGriddle are all on the second wagon. Patrick is dead. Elmo and Incog were on the first wagon but have switched for the second, Ecto was not on the first but IS on the second and Goat was on the first wagon and is undecided on the second. Also, Red has signalled his intention to hammer, so that would make him not on the first but yes on the second.

Pops is the only player on neither.

So all in all there's a lot of mixup of players between D1 and D2.

[Goatrevolt]

Your posting frequency and whether or not you are avoiding the thread while your vote sits on the popular wagon is directly related to whether or not you're a strong suspect of mine. You've seen my posts today. You've seen how displeased I am with the way the pops wagon has sprung up. I don't see why you would find it odd that I call out two of the pops voters who disappeared after dropping their pops vote to get back in the thread and say something. Both of you happened to show up not long after I did. Would you still be lurking had nothing been said? Who knows...

My stance is that regardless of pops alignment, the scum are on his wagon. The one real difference is that if Pops is scum, then I think McGriddle is likely town. I think Jahudo is probably MORE likely scum if Pops is, although I think he's a good bet either way.

Can you link me your most recent game as scum and your most recent game as town. Do you generally make cases as either alignment?

As for IAM. How could you possibly know if he's "concerned" about him or any of his scum buddies facing suspicion without knowing who his scum buddies are? I don't think he's commented on you in a relevant fashion the entire game. He was certainly opposed to Jahudo picking up suspicions. As for himself...what suspicion? The amount he's picked up has been quite minor, and most of the game has expressed a town read of him, some of them quite strong with very little real backing behind them. His pops case was hardly difficult to put together as scum. Town or scum, pops has done a lot of things that could easily be tied up against him. Now, I'm not familiar with Iam's play, since the last time (maybe only time) we played together was at least a year and a half ago, but he threw out his pops case, stuck his vote there, and has done precious little else. I don't see that as being particularly pro-town.

What scum hunting have you done this game? You've taken stances. You have town reads, scum reads, good insight on various topics, but I have never gotten the vibe from you that you really seem to actually care about finding scum, or that you have really probed very deeply into any situation to try to ascertain scum/town reads from it. Do you generally play this game as town? The sit back and make observations, but don't really put pressure on people game? That's basically what you've done so far, and I'm curious to see if this is consistent with your town play or your scum play.

[SerialClergyman]

You can try and meta me if you like, but I'm not sure you'll have too much luck. I'm certainly on the record as town as saying I don't like making cases, but in other games i've been more involved than this one (this is my only game at the moment, and that's mostly because Hoopla is modding <3)

I'm also irritated a bit by the request because last time I did this was to Elmo, I posted 4 games immediately with links and it had no visible reaction whatsoever, so you know, zz.

But here goes:

F&E game me town
PYP3 me town
F&E game me mafia

If you need more, there's a fair amount of games in my wiki.

To be honest though, I think meta isn't the right way to look at me, because I'm conscious of my own meta. The best thing you could do is work out if my play is coming from someone who believes what they are saying, believes the points they make and if the motivations behind them aren't tainted, and I'm sure my alignment will become pretty obvious.

I'd totally flip your last sentence around on you, which is possibly why we keep coming to loggerheads. I feel like I've done my part, I'm voting a wagon and begging for ah ammer, I've given a clear and honest history of my reads, when I made them, what thigns have occured to me during the game etc etc. I feel like I've probed as deeply as anyone, and I'm putting more pressure than most.

In fact - you're saying that I don't really put pressure on when you're unvoted half way through the game! ugh.

I think your first sentence is a fair point though, I suppose if you're desperate to judge me you might want me to post more, but then we just get back to what you want me to talk about. As far as I'm concerned, I think I'm an open book, I don't know what I'd say that'd help you judge me one way or the other.

I agree that McGriddle likely town on pops scum is a fair point, but rteally the only one that is taking a stand at all. This 'scum either way' thing is, in my opinion, one of the most massive fallacies in this game. You have to make the decision BEFORE he flips, otherwise you're just hedging bets, imo. I'm sure you can find meta examples of me complaining about this before as well.

OK, I amend my statement about Iam to say I haven't seen anything from him that suggests he's manipulating the game one way or another, I think his views and encouragements have been open and honest. I don't sense a hidden agenda from him.

I note you didn't say anythign in defence of incog though, was that a conscious choice?

(By the way, these posts have just made me more sure you're town, I just wish we'd gel more on how to proceed.)