Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[Hoopla]

Day 2, Vote Count 5

With ten alive, it takes

6

votes to lynch. Deadline is schedueled for 10:00AM GMT, May 9th <Countdown>.

popsofctown

-

5

(Jahudo, iamausername, SerialClergyman, Ectomancer, McGriddle)

Jahudo

-

1

(Incognito)

Ectomancer

-

1

(popsofctown)

SerialClergyman

-

1

(Elmo)

Not Voting

-

2

(Goatrevolt, RedCoyote)

[Incognito]

Mod:

Prod iamausername, please. He hasn't posted in 3 days. Thanks.

-~-~

I have no problem with town-hunting since I use it to great success myself, but I'm having a hard time believing some of the things you've said in response to me are sincere.

I think he's been pretty open with his reads despite a low post count and he's put forward ideas that aren't really in keeping with a scum agenda. Plus his case on pops was the best case of the game, imo.

I agree that the pops-case he put forth was pretty solid, but that doesn't explain why that would make him town. Good scum can easily put together a solid case against anyone, so, imo, a solid case isn't a real reason to feel like someone's town. I agree that having experience playing with another player is different, yes, and that might lend you the ability to read a given player better than players who are unfamiliar with said player, but my meta with iamausername suggests that his play here doesn't completely fall in line with the type of play I've seen come from him as town. So I'm curious as to why you feel differently about that. Also, I don't understand the "putting forth ideas that don't fit a scum agenda" thing; he planted his vote on NabNab Day 1 and has so far placed his vote on popsofctown but hasn't followed up yet. NabNab ended up being a mislynch, and pops hasn't flipped yet, so I don't see how you've been able to determine that iamausername's agenda is a town-driven one given that there's simply not much there from him as of yet.

As for the Patrick stuff, yeah, I can see why his final words might raise your suspicion of me, but he specifically mentioned that he got the same feeling about me in Mini 574 - Portal Mafia. I was town in that game too, so uh, yeah. I can pull up at least one other game where a Patrick-town voiced some concern about me while I was town too.

Out of curiosity, why does your Patrick-specific tell apply to me but doesn't apply to Jahudo when Patrick's final words made it seem like he was more leery of Jahudo than he was of me?

@Ectomancer:

I'll read through the case again to see if I can understand it better then. Maybe I've misinterpreted something.

@McGriddle:

You do realize your vote placed pops at L-1 right? Do you have any thoughts about anything else that's happened so far?

[SerialClergyman]

'Scum can make cases too'

Seriously? What kind of comment is that? Clearly scum can do pro-town things and town can do pro-scum things, that's the point of the game. But people who quickhammer are morel ikely to be scum, and people who make good, solid cases are more likely to be town.

Throughout his posts he's done a few things that scum had no reason to do. Agreeing with my read on Ecto-town and defending McGriddle from his playing of the newbie card by questioning the question are two that stand out in memory.

In what manner, by the way, do you expect him to follow up his vote, after you agree he's already put forward a solid case?

It's not that his suspicion was particularly telling or omniscient, it's that it's a town-read that I respect and that he died. So it's both worth reflecting on and wondering whether that's why he was killed. There seemed to be little other reason (apart from perhaps reputation - he certainly wasn't looking obvtown)

You'll note that I do mention Patrick's death as a point against Jahudo in an earlier post.

Jahudo has been upgraded since Nab flipped town. Patrick was against him though.

I'm saying here that I think I'm less keen about looking at Jahudo because without a link to Nab there are better targets. He is one of two people that can easily explain Patrick's NK though, yes.

[Incognito]

In what manner, by the way, do you expect him to follow up his vote, after you agree he's already put forward a solid case?

Prodding and probing further, giving his updated thoughts with respect to other players and his updated thoughts with respect to pops, continuing to scum hunt. You know, things town typically does. Just because a person puts together a good case doesn't mean they're exempt from the rest of the game, right? I'd argue that it's the objective of scum to put together solid cases and to leave it at that to allow them to marinate on their own.

It's not that his suspicion was particularly telling or omniscient, it's that it's a town-read that I respect and that he died. So it's both worth reflecting on and wondering whether that's why he was killed. There seemed to be little other reason (apart from perhaps reputation - he certainly wasn't looking obvtown)

I thought he looked pretty town especially later in the Day but that's beside the point. iirc, you were the only one who seemed to be expressing some concern about him by Day's end. I agree that it's worth reflecting on why he was killed, but I'm also saying that if you're town, you're barking up the wrong tree right now.

I'm saying here that I think I'm less keen about looking at Jahudo because without a link to Nab there are better targets. He is one of two people that can easily explain Patrick's NK though, yes.

Ah ok. So you did.

[Jahudo]

Where are Goat and Red leaning on a top suspect at the moment? Besides each other if that's still the case in any way.

Because of my reasons yesterday, and the fact that nab and pops couldn't have been working together at all.

Vote: Pops

What do you mean "working together"?

[iamausername]

I'm pretty comfortable with literally all but 4 people in the game

pops and Incog, obviously, then... McGriddle and Jahudo?

If Jahudo is one of them, I am telling you right now you should knock that number down to three. Jahudo has easy target written all over him.

If you were to make a list of low content posters in this game, you're going to put probably me and McGriddle at the bottom, maybe Elmo too, and then Jahudo on a level just above that. And yet Jahudo is the one taking the brunt of the lurker-hunting attacks. I'm not saying that "he's lurking" is the sum total of the case on him, but it's certainly a pretty major component of it. You'd think, if Jahudo was scum, that someone would be attempting to deflect some of that suspicion onto other low-content posters, and that just isn't happening here.

But yeah, take Jahudo out, and that looks like a pretty good list. My gut says Incog is scum. My head says the NabNab lynch didn't happen without any scum involvement at all, and McGriddle was definitely the shadiest hop onto that wagon. And both my head

and

my gut say pops is scum.

Prodding and probing further, giving his updated thoughts with respect to other players and his updated thoughts with respect to pops, continuing to scum hunt.

Prodding further like this, you mean?

Posting a response to all these attacks that were pages and pages ago is laughable and just reveals you've been avoiding suspicion and trying to let it die down, like I've suggested.

So wait, would continuing to ignore the attacks have proved that Jahudo

wasn't

avoiding suspicion and trying to let it die down or is this another one of those 'when did you stop beating your wife' things?

In case I'm being too oblique here; my point is that it is absurd that pops attacks Jahudo for ignoring Incog's attacks on him, then when he does try to address them, pops goes "Aha! So you admit you were ignoring them!" and doesn't say anything about Jahudo's actual responses. It shows that he didn't actually care about the points that Jahudo was ignoring, he just cared that the fact that Jahudo was ignoring them would allow him to play a trap card. This is super scummy.

He's also utterly failed to give any answer to anything in my case against him, his response was literally "read my posts again, they're good". There's not really much in that to probe. So, here is an update: pops is still scum.

[popsofctown]

Well, chyeah, that's a fair defense when your attack was basically "I read your posts, they're bad".


Jahudo's responses to the points were actually decent, I didn't have any contest to the response themselves. I don't comment on the positives when I want someone lynched, it's counterproductive.

[iamausername]

your attack was basically "I read your posts, they're bad".

No, that's my case on Incog.

[Incognito]

Jahudo has easy target written all over him.

Interesting. I was beginning to think the same thing about pops.

You'd think, if Jahudo was scum, that someone would be attempting to deflect some of that suspicion onto other low-content posters, and that just isn't happening here.

If you think Jahudo's lurking is the major component of the case against him, then obviously you don't understand the case against Jahudo. Even if we ignore that, if pops is town like I've been beginning to think he is, why would scum need to push suspicion onto other low-content posters when they could just hop onto the pops wagon just like everyone else seems to have done?

My head says the NabNab lynch didn't happen without any scum involvement at all, and McGriddle was definitely the shadiest hop onto that wagon. And both my head and my gut say pops is scum.

I like how you call McGriddle's jump on the NabNab wagon a "shady jump" but make no mention about McGriddle's current jump on the pops-wagon. Why is that exactly?

Prodding further like this, you mean?

Were you on a flight or something? Suffering from jet-lag? Where've ya been?

No, that's my case on Incog.

You have a case against me? Oh, I must have missed that or maybe you forgot to type it:

Also I have bad feelings about Incog, but I haven't yet figured out why. I'll let you know if I do.

I'm unimpressed, and I think you're full of it.

unvote, vote: iamausername
Major FoS: Jahudo

Anyone else wanna wagon iamauserscum with me?

[SerialClergyman]

Which finger is the major finger?

At what point did you decide iam was more scummy than jahudo?

Did you not realise that iam's comment about a case on you was by it's nature a reference to the fact that he hasn't made a case on you yet? What's with the flight comment?

I'm not liking any of the above.

[Incognito]

I always use a Major FoS to express multiple suspicions since, unfortunately, I don't have multiple votes. So Jahudo and iamausername are about equal right about now.

iamausername's comment about a case on me basically said that he thinks my posts are bad. I haven't seen him outline why my posts are bad; he's just basically said they are. I'm trying to figure out why.

The flight comment is basically saying that he's been disconnected from this thread for awhile, could possibly be suffering from jet-lag, and must have forgotten the fact that he hasn't posted here in about 4 days, so he's not been doing the "prodding and probing" that I called him out about in my earlier post. In other words, I think he's disillusioned himself into thinking that he's produced much in the way of content.

What don't you like about my post?

[SerialClergyman]

1) I don't see enough in that post to inspire you to switch votes.
2) You're attacking iam for not providing a case on you, despite the fact he freely admitted it and hasn't voted you.
3) While complaining about iam's lack of case, you yourself switch off the player you made a case about (and specifically asked pops and myself to comment on) and moved onto a player who you haven't made a case on.
4) I tend to have the opposite reads to the ones you're expressing.

The comment about which finger being major was just me being facetious, I'm not a FoS kind of person.

[Incognito]

SC: I'm all about producing information information information. Lessee how iamausername and others respond to my vote. I'm just not comfortable with how iamausername mentioned that he hasn't liked my posts but didn't back it up with anything. It's the type of thing that I've seen scum do to lazily not have to make a case against someone who they know is town. I realize that he said part of it was gut, but I want more than that so that I can try and figure out if he's being genuine or not.

And yes, I realized you were being facetious. I was gonna say "the middle one" to copy Mr. Flay but changed my mind.

[Goatrevolt]

Where are Goat and Red leaning on a top suspect at the moment? Besides each other if that's still the case in any way.

You.

Red was never a top suspect of mine.

[Goatrevolt]

I find Iam's posts to be worse here than Incogs, and I agree that the "Jahudo is easy wagon" is a bad point. Which wagon has 5 votes on it? Pops is a far easier wagon than Jahudo, and if pops is scum, which he might be, you can bet your sweet ass he's being bused.

[Jahudo]

Ok. Goat are you still suspicious about that "case" I made on you? I've tried to explain that it wasn't a case, and that I wasn't calling you scummy or pushing anything opportunistically. But if you aren't going to give me any heat, then I guess its not a big deal for you? (feel free to use this opportunity to vote me though... the no vote thing just looks weird at this point in the game)

Iamausername is a solid town read for me, no way I'd vote him. pops is still my top suspect. I don't see how either pops or I are easy wagons, but I don't really know what that means for these specific cases. Are we just acting newbish? dropping obvtells?

[popsofctown]

i kind of hate the term "easy wagon" in general.

[Goatrevolt]

It's an easy wagon because most people, maybe even everyone besides Elmo has expressed suspicion of pops, so it's not hard to justify being on that wagon.

You said you found me and Patrick scummy, and then your elaboration was the "detrimental, maybe setting up conditional suspicions to be independent" ones post. I'd definitely say that's calling me scummy. The part that gets me, though, is how you backed off completely when I called you out, and never came back to it, even today, when RedCoyote built a huge case on me based on the idea that I

was

taking conditional suspicions and making them independent ones. I just feel like you saw how strongly I reacted against you and figured you were better off not calling me scummy anymore in hopes I would leave you alone as well. I was set against Nabakov and there would be no reason to maybe convince me to look elsewhere.

I'll vote when I'm ready to vote. I do appreciate your encouragement to hop aboard your wagon, though. Sometimes I just need a push to get there.

I haven't read day 1 yet, which is why I haven't voted. I would like to actually read over everything again and improve my reads before throwing out a vote willy-nilly, especially considering pops is sitting at L-1 right now.

[Elmo]

I'm finding it really difficult not to read anything into the fact that the only two people with a stated town read on Iam are SC and Jahudo (right?), iam is pretty strongly defending Jahudo, and those are the three I dislike most right now. In particular I am bemused by reading iam as town.

I still have a significant amount of pent-up bloodlust for Jahudo. SC give me the creeps but I still haven't figured out why. O well wagon ho for the moment.

unvote vote iamausername

fwiw I feel the need to state that I don't have a particularly strong read on Incognito and would be interested in views either way. If it's not, like, horrible.

[Elmo]

^ add to that fact they all seem to be the primary drivers behind pops.

I mean, I think pops is town, okay, people disagree. But moreso I'm really struggling to see any legit reasoning for why he's particularly suspicious. I should probably go back and trawl, but it looked really bad when I read some of it.

Iamausername is a solid town read for me, no way I'd vote him. pops is still my top suspect.

If Jahudo is one of them, I am telling you right now you should knock that number down to three. Jahudo has easy target written all over him. {...} So, here is an update: pops is still scum.

This really really really bothers me.

[Incognito]

(feel free to use this opportunity to vote me though... the no vote thing just looks weird at this point in the game)

lol. Why would you encourage someone to vote you when suggesting that someone should vote in general?

I don't see how either pops or I are easy wagons, but I don't really know what that means for these specific cases. Are we just acting newbish? dropping obvtells?

It's an easy wagon because most people, maybe even everyone besides Elmo has expressed suspicion of pops, so it's not hard to justify being on that wagon.

this^^^
with respect to popsofctown at least. Which is why iamausername's comment about Jahudo being an easy wagon seems so weird to me - it almost looks like he's just trying to intimidate people off of joining the Jah-wagon.

For what it's worth, I didn't read Jahudo's post #299 as two separate cases, but I think we can all agree that they were two people who Jahudo claimed were pinging his scumdar at that time. Otherwise I can't see why else he'd mention them there.

Iamausername is a

solid

town read for me, no way I'd vote him.

Feel free to elaborate if you wish.

fwiw I feel the need to state that I don't have a particularly strong read on Incognito and would be interested in views either way. If it's not, like, horrible.

He's town, dude!

Not a rainbow but something pretty cool anyway:

RedCoyote:
SerialClergyman:
Incognito:
Goatrevolt:
Jahudo:
popsofctown:
iamausername:
Elmo:
Ectomancer:
McGriddle:

These be my current reads. I'm sure you could figure them out.

[popsofctown]

Ectomancer needs a lot more devils smileys.

[Jahudo]

You said you found me and Patrick scummy, and then your elaboration was the "detrimental, maybe setting up conditional suspicions to be independent" ones post.

I said I had bad feelings about you, and I wasn't confident enough to reveal until I was brought under pressure to reveal them. I didn't call you scummy. Quote me if I'm wrong. And town can be detrimental, if I think they're strategy is hurting the overall scumhunting process. Since my confidence in reading your actions was low, I was still considering you were town and not considering all the long-term ramifications of unnecessarily spreading suspicion across multiple people given variables that were still unknown.

The part that gets me, though, is how you backed off completely when I called you out, and never came back to it, even today, when RedCoyote built a huge case on me based on the idea that I

was

taking conditional suspicions and making them independent ones.

Your initial response sufficed my doubt.

I was set against Nabakov and there would be no reason to maybe convince me to look elsewhere.

If I was scum, why would I have tried to derail the Nab wagon?

I haven't read day 1 yet, which is why I haven't voted. I would like to actually read over everything again and improve my reads before throwing out a vote willy-nilly, especially considering pops is sitting at L-1 right now.

That's fine.

lol. Why would you encourage someone to vote you when suggesting that someone should vote in general?

I just want to know where he stands.

For what it's worth, I didn't read Jahudo's post #299 as two separate cases, but I think we can all agree that they were two people who Jahudo claimed were pinging his scumdar at that time. Otherwise I can't see why else he'd mention them there.

Just being cooperative I guess, and in the end it did help me downgrade those bad feelings.

[Goatrevolt]

I was set against Nabakov and there would be no reason to maybe convince me to look elsewhere.

If I was scum, why would I have tried to derail the Nab wagon?

My impression was not that you were "trying to derail" the Nab wagon at all. Can you show me this? You pushed for pops, but I distinctly remember you bringing individual points up against Nab despite not actually jumping on the wagon.

[popsofctown]

I said I had bad feelings about you, and I wasn't confident enough to reveal until I was brought under pressure to reveal them.

Am I reading that right? Sounds like practically a scumclaim. You need pressure to reveal your reads? what?