Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[McGriddle]

sorry everyone. Going through some terrible RL problems. I am still going to post, not a lot though. I am in the hospital.

more to come

[popsofctown]

1. I propose Pops' behavior was suspicious
2. It was suspicious because scumPops is more likely to do it than townPops.
3. scumPops would defend a townie.
4. Townpops would not defend a townie because it is suspicious. See (1).
5. Why is it's suspicious? see 2-4.

unvote, vote: Ectomancer

for circular logic, and seeming to be the most insincere of the votes on my wagon. That weird fluffery stuff about Elmo earlier wasn't impressive either.

Next time try not making such an obviously bullshit breakdown. 3-5 you pulled out of your ass, definitely not out of this thread

I'll chat about Elmo when it is time to chat about Elmo. If you want to try chatting about Elmo, then speak to Elmo about his non-chatting yourself.

@Incognito - over this? Oh geez, so sorry. Hey, why did you give a reasonless vote on Jahudo like Elmo did there?

vote jahudo

:goodvoting:

vote: Jahudo

Goatrevolt, I'm not sure I understand your Ectomancer-FoS. Explain?

As an aside, killing Patrick during N1 is soooooo last year.

After that, you didn't make any PbP, or anything else that I saw needed commenting on. You talked at Jahudo. I already stated that Jahudo is on the town side for me, so yeah, I pretty much ignored Elmo and then your vote too. Was there some fresh exciting breakthrough you made? I sure didn't see it.

What #3 is supposed to be is "do the scummy behavior". I was defending a player you have a town read on in the post you voted me for, but no, you didn't specifically say that.
5 is accurate. You're explanation for why I am suspicious is that "if pops were town, he would not make me feel suspicious". That is ABsolutely circular, no two ways about it. I asked you to explain your hard to understand suspicions and you replied with circular logic. I'm gonna vote someone who took a seat in the scum numbered space on a mislynch wagon with justification solely based in circular logic 10 times out of 10.

[Hoopla]

Day 2, Vote Count 4

With ten alive, it takes

6

votes to lynch. Deadline is schedueled for 10:00AM GMT, May 9th <Countdown>.

popsofctown

-

4

(Jahudo, iamausername, SerialClergyman, Ectomancer)

Jahudo

-

2

(Elmo, Incognito)

Goatrevolt

-

1

(RedCoyote)

Ectomancer

-

1

(popsofctown)

Not Voting

-

2

(McGriddle, Goatrevolt)

[Incognito]

Ectomancer: I was referring to my post #418 where I further and better explained my Jahudo-vote. I mean, yeah, I did direct that post at Jahudo, and I probably should have just directed it at everyone if you wanna get technical about that, but I still would have expected it to be commented on if people are actually reading what I'm saying in the first place. Especially if you or anyone else really was trying to figure out the reasoning behind my reasonless vote, ya know?

-~-~

RedCoyote: Ok, I can see what you're saying when you explain it the way you do, and I can see why pops' and Goat's reactions to the suggestion that they might be scum together Today might make you feel the way you do about them, but I still don't think that really explains why them as hypo-scums would feel the need to keep up the charade with each other for most of Yesterday and now into Today. I'm currently filtering through Hoopla's vote counts and there have certainly been a number of legitimate wagons on people throughout Day 1 that could have been pushed and judging from the games I've read of Goat's, I think he definitely has the ability and know-how to put together a case against someone when he's scum that might make people think he's being sincere without him needing to rely on consistently attacking his buddy.

Further, during the times that Goat

has

mentioned things that he felt might indicate possible pairings or groupings of scum, it didn't look forced to me, and I personally could see what he was getting at for the most part. If he was saying stuff like "this person and this person are looking like buddies right now" and didn't explain why or gave reasoning that didn't seem to mesh well, I'd be more inclined to think that maybe Goat really is being dishonest. But I don't think I've seen that as of yet.

[RedCoyote]

Alright, maybe I was a little too quick to jump down Goat's throat for that pops vote, and I'll agree with him when he says that it's hard to imagine that sort of effort being put into all this just to convince me.

Unvote

Mod

, I'm also going to be V/LA at least until Friday, possibly Saturday, while I dedicate a little more energy toward school. My semester is wrapping up, and I have a number of assignments for this week and next. I should have most of the important stuff done by the end of the week though.

[Ectomancer]

@pops - Your strawman is so far out there that I don't even know what you are talking about. You are scummy because you defended a townie? That's news to me.
You're scummy because in a situation where there was no suspicion before you and Goat's spate of posting, your intervention lent credence to the idea that there

could be

some sort of bussing going on. TownPops wouldn't do that on purpose.
You already had good pressure going on you, and so a drowning man approach at that point would make sense. You do a sloppy defense, reinforcing that bussing idea, then when you turn up scum, people are predisposed to lynching Goat and testing the idea.
So. When you turn up scum, rather than supporting the bussing idea, I'm pre-emptively saying that I think it far more likely to be a townGoat than bussing going down.

[Goatrevolt]

I hear constantly from people in seemingly every game I play that I ought to be voting whoever I'm talking about, but I move my vote as I please. I'm actually somewhat slower with my vote as town than as scum, I'm trying to work on that (slowing down my voting when I get a scum pm, that is).

Your vote has been moving around extremely fast this game, ever since you quit posting fluff and started making legitimate posts. Can you explain why you are playing up to your scum meta?

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer: I was referring to my post #418 where I further and better explained my Jahudo-vote. I mean, yeah, I did direct that post at Jahudo, and I probably should have just directed it at everyone if you wanna get technical about that, but I still would have expected it to be commented on if people are actually reading what I'm saying in the first place. Especially if you or anyone else really was trying to figure out the reasoning behind my reasonless vote, ya know?

Listen, not to be mean, but do you really think that touchy feely meandering 2 paragraphs that said roughly "@Jahudo-I don't get good vibes from your voting pattern" was something that anyone stopping by should make extra special effort to comment on?
I could also say that you ignored my case on Pops that says he is directly trying to give scummy responses in order to reinforce the idea of a Goat bus after he turns up scum as a way to drag down a town member after his death? I'm in fact rather pissed that instead people are talking about the back to back voting from myself and SC, rather than what we actually posted! In addition, I

was

at work at the time, composing a response and helping customers on the phone, and so

was

ninja'ed despite there being about a 6 minute delay in posts. Believe it or <something really rotten>
Goat at least, once again, I can understand, because despite us not getting into anything head-to-head, he is still following his standard practice

of being on the opposite side of most views

, and it is common for him to unvote a wagon I join that he is on, or refuse to join a wagon I support.

[popsofctown]

@pops - Your strawman is so far out there that I don't even know what you are talking about. You are scummy because you defended a townie? That's news to me.
You're scummy because in a situation where there was no suspicion before you and Goat's spate of posting, your intervention lent credence to the idea that there

could be

some sort of bussing going on. TownPops wouldn't do that on purpose.
You already had good pressure going on you, and so a drowning man approach at that point would make sense. You do a sloppy defense, reinforcing that bussing idea, then when you turn up scum, people are predisposed to lynching Goat and testing the idea.
So. When you turn up scum, rather than supporting the bussing idea, I'm pre-emptively saying that I think it far more likely to be a townGoat than bussing going down.

My very last post emphasized that that part wasn't even important. Are you even reading what I post?

You're logic is still crappy. At worst it's circular, at best I can't make heads or tails of it and it seems to involve confirmation bias which you claim wouldn't exist. What are you saying? That townPops would be like "oh, I shouldn't post this, I might make it look like Goatrevolt is bussing"?


@Goatrevolt: There's been an astounding amount of stairstepping scumminess D2. I voted Jahudo as a holdover from yesterday mostly, then Redcoyote made a post that absolutely reeked, then Ectomancer made one that was even worse than that. And that moved my vote around. In a way, it is sort of logical: empricially scum tend to be on the later slots of the wagon, and perhaps I'm seeing worse and worse reasons for voting me from people in the weakest, me-tooish phases of the wagon.

Yeah, the vote tally matches my scum meta. I'd say it's coincidence. Usually the sort of voting that happens when I'm scum is "lol you talked about this guy all day and I didn't comment much but I'll hammer for ya", like Vi called me on in Phate's Large game. Incognito you were in that one right? Was a long time ago, I'm not sure.

[Incognito]

I could also say that you ignored my case on Pops that says he is directly trying to give scummy responses in order to reinforce the idea of a Goat bus after he turns up scum as a way to drag down a town member after his death?

I didn't ignore it though. I already gave my updated view on pops' alignment Today. I couldn't recall you doing similar with your view on Jahudo until I mentioned that I felt like you had ignored my comments about him.

And quite frankly, I don't understand your case on popsofctown. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your case essentially boils down to "I (Ectomancer) am leaning town on Goat, pops seems like he's trying to connect himself to Goat, so I think pops is likely scum who's trying to bring down Goat in the future", right? Why do you think that particular explanation makes more sense than some hypothetical pops-town alternate explanation? Do you really think scum would be more concerned about setting up future mislynches after their own flips at this point as opposed to just flat-out surviving on their own? And assuming that your read on this situation is genuine, if you yourself were so easily able to spot something like that now, how successful do you think pops-scum would expect that "tying himself to a town-Goat" to be?

I don't even get how SerialClergyman thinks your post was similar to his. SC, explain?

Incognito you were in that one right? Was a long time ago, I'm not sure.

Nope. I try to avoid Large Games like the plague.

-~-~

Sorry to hear about your hospital situation, McG. I'm eager to see your updated thoughts though. Maybe I'll do my own little rainbow reads list soon too.

[Elmo]

psst, pops, come join the jahudo wagon! we have cookies!

[popsofctown]

Looked it up it was Mafia 89: Revenge

[Jahudo]

psst, pops, come join the jahudo wagon! we have cookies!

Can I have a cookie?

Elmo, as a strict rule do you like quantity over quality in your posts? If not, can you argue that my quality of posts are also lacking? And if quantity does matter alot, I guess you don't see many scum spammers?

[Elmo]

as a strict rule

therefore no

If not, can you argue that my quality of posts are also lacking?

Yeah - I should probably go meta you (?), but I think the content is at minimum things pretty comfortable for scum to post and not hugely townish. Given you've noted yourself you're posting less that would be considered usual, it may be down to some outside issue like lack of time or whatever, in which case it would be good to say that. In general you seem much less aggro than when I've seen you as town, although it was probably a while ago.

And if quantity does matter alot, I guess you don't see many scum spammers?

I don't think I've ever seen a scum spammer, actually.

cookie forthcoming~

[Elmo]

Personally, I think it's important on it's own - I think that, for the same amount of 'content' (however you define it) it helps a townie to post more frequently, and they're more likely to do so. Should be fairly obvious why.

also, ^ relevant

[Ectomancer]

@Incog - no you didn't get it quite right. What we had was nothing, then interaction that generated suspicion. Some would say that suspicion means that there is bussing going on. I don't, for reasons I expressed. I say the suspicion came from Pops, Pops who was sliding towards lynch. Its a case of protesting overmuch with poor arguments.

And assuming that your read on this situation is genuine, if you yourself were so easily able to spot something like that now, how successful do you think pops-scum would expect that "tying himself to a town-Goat" to be?

This clearly shows you didn't get it. The "obvious" part is that based upon that Red/Goat/Pops interaction, there is a bussing going on. The

not

obvious part unless you are familiar with Goat's habits, which he has adhered to this entire game, is that he wasn't bussing.
I think that without my analysis of the damn thing, we would indeed be listening to more of Red attacking Goat through Pops. Its an argument that doesn't make sense. I'd like to see a good scumGoat argument, but I'm not going to slant my analysis that way on purpose. I told you already I'm breaking him down through other interactions, and right now I see neutral unless Pops pops scum, then I read town, not scum like Red, and right there Incog is your evidence of how successful he is being. It wouldn't be hard for me to simply agree with Red and keep a suspicion on both Goat and Pops. What use is it for me to go out of my way to hack in between them with analysis?

[SerialClergyman]

Great, well the walls weren't exactly wasted because now we're thinking town/town on goat/red, which is a good end result.

Now I spend much of my time replying to Incog.

Incog -

Jahudo case - didn't think it was that much of a case, worthy of specific comment. I feel like I've been in this discussion before on D1 with Goat. Iam's pops case was much more convincing. Also, I'm a little cooler on Jahudo since Nab's town flip.

re: vote switching - indeed I did remember it incorrectly, I thought you were voting Nab when you first voted Jahudo. It's interesting that you weren't, although were lending it support. You were also voting pops, followed by Jahudo. Hmm.
Either way, I think the point is still pretty similarish, whether you'd actually voted or just supported his wagon by proxy.

re: iam - I'm pretty sure he's town. I mentioned this a while ago, at the end of D1, but I'm picking up what he's putting down. I've played a lot with him, and while he's definitely a good enough player to fool me, I feel like he's not this game. I think he's been pretty open with his reads despite a low post count and he's put forward ideas that aren't really in keeping with a scum agenda. Plus his case on pops was the best case of the game, imo.

re: Patrick - Patrick had very little in the way of a scum list, but he was uneasy about you. There's precious little other reason for him to die apart from perhaps reputation - he wasn't setting the town on fire with his insight, and was drawing criticism if not suspicion. I have felt the same way, particularly recently, and iam expressed the same feeling. I don't think it's a coincidence that 2 townies and one person I think is townie all felt uneasy about your posts.

re: shying form the spotlight - I disagree completely. I think that many players in this game haven't made the sort of bold, forthright attack on an established player. Red's attack on Goat was completely unnecessary and dangerous if he was scum. There are plenty of wagons around, andp lenty of easier targets he could push with easier reasoning. I think the goat/red saga reeks of town, and I've just been more andm ore convinced as it's gone on.

re: My post being similar to pops' - I already explained why when I made the comment - goat voted pops, red makes case against goat, goat unvotes, pops votes red. From this point there are all sorts of sides to take and people to bully. Then Ecto and I simulpost the exact same thing - goat and red look townie, pops looks scummy. There are parts of our posts that are different, but the fact that our read on the situation was so similar is interesting.

I think I would be up for an Incog wagon as well now, actually. I think of the people I'm interested in lynching, he and pops are the two I'm focused on. Anyone prefer that to pops?

[Elmo]

Great, well the walls weren't exactly wasted because now we're thinking town/town on goat/red, which is a good end result.

*twitch*

unvote vote SerialClergyman

[SerialClergyman]

If you're going to meta anyone Elmo, that's a good one to meta.

[Elmo]

Feel like saving me some effort?

[SerialClergyman]

Zzz

Pick a game.

My latest game (iam was mod) I spent a massive amount of time trying to get farside and elvis to stop attacking each other. Once they did, and agreed each other was town, we had a massive base to them go win the game, and we essentially won via process of elimination. Before that, elvis and I tried to essentially clear each other on D1. quotes like

I'm glad that you and farside agree on something, however. Convince each other you're town and we can get this party started.

are ridden throughout it.

Aside from that game, there's stacks where I've made town reads unapologetically. I spent a good portion of my earlier games specifically not scum hunting early, and instead only looking for town players and being prepared to lynch anyone else.

Essentially - I'm the town reads dude. And this game really seems like a good occasion to use it. I'm pretty comfortable with literally all but 4 people in the game, and the sooner we can start getting a good bunch of prob-towns up, the sooner we're going to hit scum.

And goat and red are looking obv town after their little spat, so that's a good thing.

[SerialClergyman]

This is iam's dollhouse mafia with the quote above

A townread game
Another one
Another one

etc

[popsofctown]

Bleh. Stop persuading me about RC, SC. And your own alignment as well.

[McGriddle]

Because of my reasons yesterday, and the fact that nab and pops couldn't have been working together at all.

Vote: Pops

Sorry, still working out my problems guys. Going to try really hard to devote more attention to this game.

[Hoopla]

~Bump~