Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[SerialClergyman]

I don't understand that comment.

[Hoopla]

Day 1, Vote Count #15

With twelve alive, it takes

7

votes to lynch. Deadline is schedueled for 7:00AM GMT, April 26th <Countdown>.

NabakovNabakov

-

6

(Elmo, Goatrevolt, SerialClergyman, iamausername, McGriddle, Incognito)

Elmo

-

2

(Ectomancer, RedCoyote)

McGriddle

-

1

(NabakovNabakov)

Jahudo

-

1

(popsofctown)

SerialClergyman

-

1

(Jahudo)

Not Voting

-

1

(Patrick)

[popsofctown]

I don't get Red, I'm finding him really confusing. I have the odd gut feeling where I don't like part of his posts, despite liking a lot of what he puts forward. It reminds me of Plum's posts in your last game, iamausername - don't know if you remember.

Huh, I'm getting pretty much the exact opposite. I disagree with a lot of what he's saying, but I'm getting a good gut feeling from him.

I've played a lot of games with iamausername and I'm just feeling him as town for the moment. He seems to be operating off his gut and speaking his mind without being hassled about essentially anything and I like that. I'm waiting for him to click into gear though, I suspect when he does that his alignment will be obvious to everyone, not just a gut read by me.

Shh! I'm trying to lull the scum into a false sense of security by coasting through the first day so they don't nightkill me and I can own them tomorrow.

pops. pops is the reasonable alternative.

You need to give more than this before the day ends. Seriously, I'll come up to bat for you against a player like Elmo, but you need to give the town more than this.

Oh alright. A little taster of the ownage I will be bringing tomorrow; here are some reasons why pops is a good alternative (Well, was. Post-claim, I don't think there is any reasonable alternative to hammering NabNab. Right away.)

Here is what pops has to say about Jahudo failing to respond to a single vote from Incog:

I'm gonna totally ignore people voting or attacking me, I'll just ride it out and hope others get more attention.

Here is what pops has to say about NabNab failing to respond to

five

votes, including mine which made a point of alerting everyone to the fact that NabNab was ignoring these votes:

This attack on Jahudo thus does not strike me as genuine.

Other things pops attacks Jahudo for:

- Giving scum reads without reasoning
- Giving town reads without reasoning
- Expressing conflicted feelings about the NabNab wagon

The first two points aren't totally inconsistent with pops' play up to now; he made the same rubbish attack on SerialClergyman earlier in the game, but still, if pops considers a lack of reasoning to be a major scum tell, it again seems odd that he's had very little to say about the NabNab wagon, which has been characterised by a distinct lack of stated reasoning.

Basically, the way pops has reacted, or rather

not

reacted, to the NabNab wagon seems to be totally at odds with the things he is attacking people for.

There's also this:

Without the colors, you might assume that all the way up to Incognito could be "town" or that all the way down to Elmo was "scummy". It offers far more

information

on individuals the way he did it. [emphasis pops's]

teehee. That's the I word. Not the A word.

Except the way McGriddle has been behaving it upsets me more, compared to Elmo.

pops trying to bring the Information Instead of Analysis tell to bear on McGriddle, not Elmo. a) It's another inconsistency in whether he considers something to be a tell or not, and b) it does not actually apply to McGriddle anyway. The point of the IIoA tell is that someone who is just giving a list of the game's events with no commentary, or something like that, is scummy. When the information in question is "who McGriddle thinks is scum/town", it's not Information Instead of Analysis, because that Information is, in fact, Analysis. Not very detailed Analysis, granted, but Analysis nonetheless.

---

Now somebody drop that hammer.

My attack on Jahudo is genuine. All I can say is I think it's good stuff, maybe you should read it again.

I don't know what anyone is attacking Nabakov for. I figured reasoning is there, but I'm too lazy to go look at it, or didn't get it first read through. I've said this before, I only feel that I owe a thread one readthrough when I commit to a game. If I saw a fallacious attack on Naba, I'd go to bat on it, but I didn't notice one. I can't complain that there aren't reasons for attacking him because I'm not sure there aren't any.


IioA is an excellent tell, but everything matters in context. In context of all of Elmo's play, taken together, I don't think it was a scumtell for her. If the previous posts were "Quit lurking Elmo" or "<a bunch of people with equal involvement in a game where contribution levels are a total nonissue>" or "<Elmo avoiding direct questions>" (she always seems to comply afaik) then the same exact post would be an issue but that wasn't the case.

McGriddle's rainbow wasn't very useful. A green name, wow, a player who may be scum or town thinks this guy is townish, I can't do a lot with that. It was definitely coming from a lurkery player who's contribution and involvement was under question. And it was definitely a lot easier to drop a couple paragraphs under that and explain the colors there.

I see analysis as an explanation of how various factors lead to a certain conclusion. "player X is scummy" is a statement of fact, I don't see that as analysis, I see it as information.

More importantly, "player X is scummy" is Information if you follow the spirit of IioA: trying to catch on to the issues scum have simulating real scumhunting, and how they relapse into posts that aren't a scumhunting process. Scum can print out a rainbow list all day, you can do it with a friggin random number generator if you want to. Townies can analyze.

[Incognito]

I just did a bit of meta-ing of the mod after NabNab claimed, and it looks like Hoopla HAS used the Rolecop role in the only other game she modded (Mini 820 - The Seaside for those keeping score at home). According to that game, she had a Rolecop as both a town-aligned role AND a scum-aligned role, so I could really see NabNab's claim coming from either alignment. I'm still cool with his lynch.

Also, if NabNab really is scum, I could see this as being a potential slip:

Townies and scum show as vanilla, everyone else shows as their role. Now that I've revealed it, it's pretty much worthless, as the only really useful thing I would think to do with it is catch scum in a lie.

As Goatrevolt pointed out, a Rolecop has the ability to tell the user if a given person has a power role EVEN IF the person investigated is scum; it just won't show the person's alignment. If NabNab is the scum team's sole PR, he might have been thinking about the results he might have gotten on his potential buddies rather than thinking about how his role might look in a different game-state from what we might have here.



Other stuff:

That's all well and good, but then why not make use of it? Why won't Elmo? If it was a townie thing to do, explain what uses Elmo has made of it. Explain how NabNab's post count hurt him (since it didn't cause Elmo to move his vote, and it didn't change your position that NabNab was a good wagon).

I'd like to think that I HAVE used it to some degree. With respect to NabNab, I feel like his post count has been a bit low, and my feeling is that his content level has gone right alongside that for the most part too. So that's a big reason why I still support his wagon. I've been somewhat critical of Ectomancer and popsofctown throughout Day 1 too; and like I elaborated on, I felt like despite the fact that their post count totals were among the highest, their content levels were still a bit on the low side. popsofctown seems to have corrected this a bit as of late and Ectomancer still gives me a bit of mixed feelings at this time.

As for Elmo, I get the feeling that he's used his numbers for informational purposes too. I don't think it had to be dragged out of him at all; I get the feeling that he didn't fully understand the purpose of it when he initially posted it but then he began to think of the potential for it later on down the line.

-~-~

@McGriddle: Why did that post make you wanna confirm your vote on NabNab?

I don't really have much more to add at this time. I'll try to read over the last page a bit more closely to see if there's anything else worth mentioning, but I think the most pressing issue (that of re: NabNab) is probably the most important thing to take of right now.

[Jahudo]

I don't know what anyone is attacking Nabakov for. I figured reasoning is there, but I'm too lazy to go look at it, or didn't get it first read through.

Its odd that you never bothered to find the reasoning, since you placed your gut read on that same level as other's reads:

I also hate Nabanab as much as everyone else seems to, but it's been gut and I don't get the articulated reasons atm

To quote a certain pops, "I'll withhold my reasoning so I can make it up later if I must and can flipflop as needed."

So how is it better to have unreasoned gut feelings on the largest wagon of the day, and worse to have unreasoned gut feelings on people not being wagoned?

And I'm scummy for having points for and against Nabakov, but you wouldn't be scum and say you're too lazy to analyze the reasoning for the wagon?

If you want to continue saying your case is "good stuff", I think you need to explain your own stuff.

[Elmo]

The first thing that came to mind was, why didn't Nab just claim regular cop?

I have an inkling that Hoopla has the meta of being anti-cop. Don't quote me on that, tho >_>

[popsofctown]

I already explained my good stuff.


I don't have a read on naba naba, besides his last one or two posts. Other than that, pretty much null on him. Don't know where you get this massive naba gut read from.

[SerialClergyman]

STOP............


Hammertime.

gg for nabnab, let's get a flip.

[Goatrevolt]

Huh, I'm getting pretty much the exact opposite. I disagree with a lot of what he's saying, but I'm getting a good gut feeling from him.

Exactly my stance on Red. I don't think I've agreed with a single thing he's said all game, but I also don't think any of his stances have been scummy. Elmo is one of my strongest town reads, he's wrong about me, and he's most likely wrong about Nabakov as well, but I'm not really seeing scummy motives behind these actions.

I will say that I'm done arguing with Red under the current context. It's pissing me off and is completely pointless to boot. If you want to make a case suggesting that I'm scum then be my guest. But if you're going to continually whine about how "popular" I am and how you don't agree with my playstyle, then I'm just going to ignore it. You don't seem to really think I'm that scummy, just dislike how I've played and my status among the town (which you are greatly overstating), which is pretty freaking stupid. Get. Over. It. As for my stance on Elmo, if I'm fairly certain someone is scum, I'm not going to ignore that information in evaluating other players. If for some reason I change my mind and no longer believe that player to be scum, then my reads on other players will shift accordingly. If I'm 80% certain A is scum, and 60% certain B is scum, but B makes no sense as scum with A, then I'm not going to want to lynch B. But if something happens that makes me reconsider A as town, then I may be willing to lynch B after that point. I don't see this as being ridiculous or a bad playstyle. I've found it to be successful. Generally this doesn't play a big factor into how I read my main suspect, but it does play a factor into how I read other players in relation to my guess that my main suspect is scum, if that makes sense.

Also, if NabNab really is scum, I could see this as being a potential slip:

Townies and scum show as vanilla, everyone else shows as their role. Now that I've revealed it, it's pretty much worthless, as the only really useful thing I would think to do with it is catch scum in a lie.

As Goatrevolt pointed out, a Rolecop has the ability to tell the user if a given person has a power role EVEN IF the person investigated is scum; it just won't show the person's alignment. If NabNab is the scum team's sole PR, he might have been thinking about the results he might have gotten on his potential buddies rather than thinking about how his role might look in a different game-state from what we might have here.

Bingo. Exactly the point I was going for, but worded much better.

I liked Iam's case on pops, and I still find Jahudo suspect as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the two are just distancing from each other. I'm not sure how to read their interactions with Nabakov. Both have called him scummy at various points but neither have bothered to get on the wagon at any point. My read on it right now is unwillingness to lynch the scum buddy with the powerful role.

[McGriddle]

@ Incog and SC: I said that because he said "This game is an experiment" meaning, even if there wasn't a good case on him, he is not taking this game seriously. so I /confirmed my vote on him.

Also

FoS Pops

for this

"McGriddle's rainbow wasn't very useful. A green name, wow"

This shows me you didn't even LOOK at my post, but you are trying to get a case going against me via the snowball affect of other players not knowing why I did it.

[McGriddle]

EBWOP: you didn't even look at it because there ARE no green names in it. Only heat signatures or red yellow orange and blue. You only looked at peoples case against me that said a "rainbow" so you automatically assumed, without looking at my post, it was a rainbow, meaning you didn't pay attention to it.

[/foundscum]

[Jahudo]

Hammertime.

gg for nabnab, let's get a flip.

Patrick hasn't commented on the claim yet, we should at least wait for him.

I think there are better wagons today and just under 3 days to have them. If I had to place Nab on a suspect list now, he'd probably rank 3rd so I'd be okay with his lynch and even hammer if needed.

I don't have a read on naba naba, besides his last one or two posts. Other than that, pretty much null on him. Don't know where you get this massive naba gut read from.

Post 208, 6th paragraph.

unvote;
Vote: popsofctown

- Can I interest anyone in a pops lynch?

[popsofctown]

That was six days ago. He did bug my gut back then, doesn't do so now. *shrug*

@McGriddle: confused your coloring with elmo's, from memory. I read the post.

[McGriddle]

So pops, so far you're looking pretty scummy.

Jahudo had a point about you being contradictory. So we have your contradiction, you not reading my post, and then the original tell of you not being as aggressive as you were in the other game. that's 3 reasons.

[popsofctown]

i read the post....

[Ectomancer]

IioA is an excellent tell, but everything matters in context. In context of all of Elmo's play, taken together, I don't think it was a scumtell for her. If the previous posts were "Quit lurking Elmo" or "<a bunch of people with equal involvement in a game where contribution levels are a total nonissue>" or "<Elmo avoiding direct questions>" (she always seems to comply afaik) then the same exact post would be an issue but that wasn't the case.

This is bullshit. The fact that most of us ignored Elmo's antics in no way excuses him from providing the same input that the rest of have. He doesn't need a frckin personalized invitation!

As for Elmo, I get the feeling that he's used his numbers for informational purposes too. I don't think it had to be dragged out of him at all; I get the feeling that he didn't fully understand the purpose of it when he initially posted it but then he began to think of the potential for it later on down the line.

This is also bullshit. "Oh, I don't think he knew what he was doing, but he quickly came up with an excuse for doing it!"
Well blow me down! There is no way it could be busy work if he came with a reasonable reason for it after the fact!


Elmo needs to be lynched. Barring that, I think Pops would not be a distasteful lynch either. I don't like Incognito's defense of Elmo either. It isn't a defense, it's an

excuse

.

[popsofctown]

Lol, I'm everyone's second choice for a lynch.

I think just everyone in the town feels like they are allowed to say that.

[Goatrevolt]

The push to lynch Elmo is really weak. Have any of you ever played with Elmo before? Pops isn't a bad lynch, though.

[Ectomancer]

The push to lynch Elmo is really weak. Have any of you ever played with Elmo before? Pops isn't a bad lynch, though.

Plenty. This isn't Elmo.

[RedCoyote]

I really don't think the idea that me and Nab aren't scum together can be classed as 'speculative' at this point.

With the limited content you've provided, I'm not ready to give your credit either way, honestly. I don't much care for people attempting to clear themselves either.

---

I'm actually a lot less incensed by linking alignments between players - I do this quite a bit. What I object to is doing it on day 1 (no flips, information extremely limited) and letting it colour your entire view of the town. I felt that you had pretty solid reads on over half the town purely based on Nabscum. I wanted to get you back to the here and now. (and stop reads like the one mentioned above, elmo town because he voted an unflipped nab)

This is the point I'm trying to make, but with me, it's like, I'm not allowed to say that because I'm just harboring resentment against Goat. That's how he's able to discredit me.

I don't get Red, I'm finding him really confusing. I have the odd gut feeling where I don't like part of his posts, despite liking a lot of what he puts forward.

Ecto says I'm doing a better job presenting the case against Elmo, but I think Ecto is more succinct. If you don't place much stock in IIoA, then I guess it may not mean much to you. Here's what I know about Elmo, he thinks Jahudo and NabNab are scum and Goat, pops, and Pat are town. I don't really have a clue how he reached any of these conclusions, because he chooses not to elaborate. Now it's great that I know these things, because it shows that Elmo is willing to give a position, but what happens when they change (and they will change) over the course of the game? If NabNab flips town? If pops flips scum? It's frustrating that Elmo only gets away with it because everyone else here is contributing. If everyone posted like Elmo, then the game would be completely stalled. So when something happens that Elmo didn't predict, Elmo will vote Incog and then say that Jahudo is town (as an example). We won't know why. I'm not satisfied with that, and I make no apologies for voting Elmo because of it. I know it isn't popular, because apparently it's good enough for the majority of the players in the game, but until I think that Elmo isn't trying to delibrately hide his thought process in order to sneak through unnoticed, then I'll be on his case.

I'm waiting for him to click into gear though, I suspect when he does that his alignment will be obvious to everyone, not just a gut read by me.

This doesn't really jive well with me. Something about this statement is too presumptive. We'll see though.

---

"it" here refers to my post. But then you start going on about me riding an "ongoing sentiment". Considering I was the very first person to make that post replying to Jahudo's, I think it's rather impossible that the ideas in that post weren't my own.

Not just the reply, I mean the ongoing sentiment that has been counter-Jahudo for this entire game. I think there are a lot of "majority" positions in this game, and it's not very evenly divided. Players like you, Ecto, and possibly Incog are probably fairly split on, but I think there is an alarming amount of consenus in this game. Virtually everyone thinks NabNab and Jahudo are scumbuddies and that Elmo, Goat, McGriddle are townies. I'm confident this will start to change as we progress, but I haven't been very happy with the near unanimity that NabNab had against him. This may very well come back to bite us later in the game.

---

If I have a failing when explaining myself, it seems to be when I find something to be "self-evident".

I get the same feeling a lot. I thought you did better, personally, because it seemed more pointed and easy to read. I think I have a tendency to get too verbose. I hate it because the more passion I have for the game or my positions usually means I type more. I've got to learn to fight that better.

---

(Well, was. Post-claim, I don't think there is any reasonable alternative to hammering NabNab. Right away.)

I agree with this and the rest of the post.

---

I just did a bit of meta-ing of the mod after NabNab claimed, and it looks like Hoopla HAS used the Rolecop role in the only other game she modded (Mini 820 - The Seaside for those keeping score at home). According to that game, she had a Rolecop as both a town-aligned role AND a scum-aligned role, so I could really see NabNab's claim coming from either alignment. I'm still cool with his lynch.

I'm glad you pointed this out, and it makes me feel a little more comfortable with the ends, if not the means.

I'd like to think that I HAVE used it to some degree.

That's fair and well explained. I can go with that. I think your defense of Elmo is a reach, but I can't expect you to know what's going on in his head.

---

But if you're going to continually whine about how "popular" I am and how you don't agree with my playstyle, then I'm just going to ignore it. You don't seem to really think I'm that scummy, just dislike how I've played and my status among the town (which you are greatly overstating), which is pretty freaking stupid. Get. Over. It.

Just a few days ago you were using your popularity as justification for me to get in line, now it's a liability and you're using your frustration to shield you from reality. The reality is your reads have closed you off to the point where those who disagree with you need to be put in place and those who agree with you are a-okay. NabNab is the right lynch because it's popular, and it's popular because it's the right lynch.

It's not even that NabNab is a bad lynch (especially after the claim), it's that there has been no deviation from NabNab, and the NabNab wagon is completely comfortable with this. What's more, they're actively discouraging it, as is the case with our friends Goat and Elmo (in different ways). Goat is discouraging it by lining up future scum/town reads based on NabNab's alignment, and Elmo is doing so by simply not participating in the game.

Goat says that he can just simply drop all his reads if something doesn't go as planned, but that's not really the point. The point is D1's are very much a sketchy proposition for the town, and it's usually no more than dumb luck if they score a direct hit on a scum member. NabNab is no different, you know, there is not this huge case against NabNab. And yet, it's like, we've got these players who are so sure, so confident, that it's already a fixture in their minds. This mentality could really hurt us later in the game, I think.

---

EBWOP: you didn't even look at it because there ARE no green names in it. Only heat signatures or red yellow orange and blue.

I think pops was being tongue-in-cheek with that remark.

This post has been edited to delete accidental duplication - Hoopla

[RedCoyote]

Crap, I got some freaking error during that post. It was pasted in there twice.

[Elmo]

The push to lynch Elmo is really weak. Have any of you ever played with Elmo before? Pops isn't a bad lynch, though.

Plenty. This isn't Elmo.

You got me, this is actually Vollkan playing on Elmo's account. Suckers.

Lol, I'm everyone's second choice for a lynch.

You're like my eighth choice for a lynch. :V

With the limited content you've provided, I'm not ready to give your credit either way, honestly. I don't much care for people attempting to clear themselves either.

So NabNab flips Mafia Roleblocker and you'll still be pushing my lynch exactly as hard as you did today, based on my content? That's the logical consequence of judging people based purely on their own contributions, but we're kinda verging on the absurd here.

Why do you talk about me trying to clear myself if you rather dislike NabNab's wagon, and have done for some time? Obviously it hardly clears me if he's town.

until I think that Elmo isn't trying to delibrately hide his thought process in order to sneak through unnoticed, then I'll be on his case.

So you 110% seriously believe my primary objective with respect to how I'm playing is to avoid attention? How dumb do you think I am?

I'd like to think that I HAVE used it to some degree.

That's fair and well explained. I can go with that. I think your defense of Elmo is a reach, but I can't expect you to know what's going on in his head.

Why not?

[Goatrevolt]

I've never used my "popularity" as a justification for you to get in line. I was simply trying to show you your biased view of my play because not a single other person in the game held the same viewpoint you did about something that directly pertained to you. The point I was making is that you were overreacting to how I handled you because it directly related to you personally (emotionally invested) while the rest of the game from an outside perspective didn't see it the same way.

I hit scum roughly 50% of the time on day 1. Maybe even higher, but I would need to actually check stats on that. I don't buy into it being dumb luck or a crapshoot, and I still don't really care whether you like my playstyle or not, as you continue to show that you don't. I'm only as sure as I feel reasonable to be sure about my reads. It's no different than anyone else, I just play with connections and interactions in mind. Again, you are entirely trying to lecture me for something you think is bad play. If you think I'm scum, have at it, but you're getting nowhere by telling me you don't like how I play.

[popsofctown]

369 is really long


>_>
<_<

Doos I reeeeeally gotta read that? XD

[RedCoyote]

Sorry for all the walls. I suspect I will slow down when the next day starts. If Pat or someone else hasn't hammered by the next time I log on, then I'll do it myself. I don't like the way NabNab claimed, and I don't think there's the strength (or initiative, sadly) to get someone else as an alternative.

---

So NabNab flips Mafia Roleblocker and you'll still be pushing my lynch exactly as hard as you did today, based on my content? That's the logical consequence of judging people based purely on their own contributions, but we're kinda verging on the absurd here.

What did I say? I'm not ready to give you credit either way. What, you think you had some role in pushing this wagon? You made a couple of remarks to NabNab and you voted. Okay. Maybe you consider yourself to be the leader of this wagon just because of your position. I don't.

So you 110% seriously believe my primary objective with respect to how I'm playing is to avoid attention?

You're doing a good job of it. No one seems to mind that you haven't posted any content other than me and Ecto.

Why not?

Because he isn't you.

---

I've never used my "popularity" as a justification for you to get in line. I was simply trying to show you your biased view of my play because not a single other person in the game held the same viewpoint you did about something that directly pertained to you. The point I was making is that you were overreacting to how I handled you because it directly related to you personally (emotionally invested) while the rest of the game from an outside perspective didn't see it the same way.

I get it, Goat. You've said the same thing multiple times.

I don't agree with you, and I further contend that you're trying to marginalize me in an attempt to keep this majority of yours intact. The mindset you're coming from is what speaks to me. Nobody agrees with my interpretation of you because I am biased against you. I'm biased against you because nobody agrees with my interpretation of you. Elmo is your strongest townread because NabNab is scum. NabNab is scum because Elmo is your biggest townread. There's a strong chance Jahudo is scum, so NabNab is scum. NabNab is scum, so there's a strong chance Jahudo is scum.

It's circles and circles and more circles. It's not about me lecturing you. I don't think nearly high enough of my abilities to lecture anyone, let alone you (some would say it's probably best to vote completely opposite of me XD). It's about getting others to see your potential charade.

---

Doos I reeeeeally gotta read that?

No, pops, please don't. It was unintentionally duplicated. I'd ask the

Mod

if she could delete half of it. What I did was copy and paste it from a notepad file twice on accident because I got some strange DB error when I was trying to submit it.