Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[Hoopla]

Day 1, Vote Count #8

With twelve alive, it takes

7

votes to lynch. Deadline is schedueled for 7:00AM GMT, April 26th <Countdown>.

NabakovNabakov

-

4

(Elmo, Goatrevolt, SerialClergyman, iamausername)

popsofctown

-

2

(Incognito, Jahudo)

Goatrevolt

-

2

(Patrick, popsofctown)

RedCoyote

-

1

(Ectomancer)

Elmo

-

1

(RedCoyote)

McGriddle

-

1

(NabakovNabakov)

Not Voting

-

1

(McGriddle)

[RedCoyote]

Dunno where this is true.

Oh, hi Elmo, nice of you to show up 8 minutes after someone first asked for your opinion on something.

Care to elaborate on... anything?

(emphasis added)

It was Patrick, there was this post in Satin Doll Showdown where I waffled and I keep thinking he said it was scummy but then I remember he told me he didn't (I think?)

I think you did say something about waffling in reference to my stance on Adel in Tofu Day 2 tho.

I'm entralled with my vote, I just can't remember why I put it there

If you want to get technical, then I suppose that's an elaboration of a previous game. I certainly don't want to speak for NabNab, but I thought it was pretty apparent he was referring to your vote.

p.p.s. Out of curiosity, why do you think you started out referring to me as she?

I honestly confused you for someone else, initially. Given that you didn't have many posts, I just kind of scrolled though and thinking I had seen the Venus symbol (is that the proper name?).

When someone else said referred to you as a he I had to do a double take.

---

What about the fact that pops' leading role in that game was to break it, something that isn't really possible in this game at this point?

I had just assumed that wasn't intentional. That is thinking multiple steps ahead. I think McGriddle was merely saying, "pops not playing to his townmeta = red flag", rather than analyzing all the details as to why that was the case.

---

To me, saying someone's behavior is "just bad form" kinda implies anti-town-ness rather than true scumminess.

Would you say that either instance would be acceptable grounds for a D1 lynch though (with preference to the latter)?

---

Although I don't feel the same way now as I did, I still find him scummy, but I also see a possible you and nab pairing, so for that reason I am going to

Unvote

and hold my vote for a little while.

A couple of questions: Why are you choosing to "hold" your vote as opposed to using it on NabNab or Jahudo? Also, what has given you a change of heart about pops? Was it something specifically he said, have other players influenced this decision, or was it all a mental process in your own head?

---

Red/Nabs, is Elmo more likely than average to be scum?

Absolutely; that's why my vote is where it is.

---

I get a gut buddying feel for you 2.

What about between Ecto and Goat? Elmo and Pat? Is there something special you can point to in the case of NabNab and Jahudo, other than the fact they've both looked at you with suspicion?

[Incognito]

Jahudo, the fact that McGriddle pointed out something that he felt was off about pops' posting led me to believe that he was becoming suspicious of him. He framed it in a 'you're either vanilla or scum' way, but I still see it as a form of suspicion.

Incidentally, McGriddle, can you link to the game you've been talking about?

[Incognito]

Cross-posted.

To me, saying someone's behavior is "just bad form" kinda implies anti-town-ness rather than true scumminess.

Would you say that either instance would be acceptable grounds for a D1 lynch though (with preference to the latter)?

No, if I felt someone was being anti-town but couldn't definitively say that I thought his or her behavior was more likely to come from scum, I wouldn't be willing to support that person's lynch. You would?

[Jahudo]

Okay, I probably should have asked for the game from the start. Its' RedCoyote's Precision Mafia right? That had pops, mcgriddle and command points. The setup wasn't broken to start and based on the first few pages pops was taking more of a lead to discuss setup strategy, though that's still not comparable to scumhunting leader. But I can see McGriddle's side of the issue now.

I don't think I have any problem with McGriddle's play now.

---------------

I can still get behind the idea of finding Elmo hard to read, when he doesn't explain what he's thinking, but Nabakov's method is questionable upon a second look. His question here:

Oh, hi Elmo, nice of you to show up 8 minutes after someone first asked for your opinion on something. Care to elaborate on... anything?

Looks like a setup to confirm his suspicion in the second post here...

Well, I'm clearly not happy with Elmo's contribution so far. An unaccompanied random vote I can handle, but staying entirely out of discussion until somebody specifically asks for his opinion is just bad form. Even when he gives his opinion, as with his vote, there's nothing to support it.

No matter how Elmo would have responded or not responded. He asks Elmo to elaborate on his opinions then says Elmo is only contributing when people are asking him to elaborate on his opinions.

If you're trying to prove your theory, it would make more sense to actually wait and see if Elmo contributed on his own. What wold have been the acceptable response?

[McGriddle]

Jahudo, the fact that McGriddle pointed out something that he felt was off about pops' posting led me to believe that he was becoming suspicious of him. He framed it in a 'you're either vanilla or scum' way, but I still see it as a form of suspicion.

Incidentally, McGriddle, can you link to the game you've been talking about?

Sure

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

[McGriddle]

A couple of questions: Why are you choosing to "hold" your vote as opposed to using it on NabNab or Jahudo? Also, what has given you a change of heart about pops? Was it something specifically he said, have other players influenced this decision, or was it all a mental process in your own head?

I want to put it on Naab, but I want to do some ISOing and more hunting before I put him at L-2. I have not necessarily had a change of heart, just a better candidate come up. I still think there is a possibility of pops being scum, but higher when it comes to Nab.

[Elmo]

When asked to clarify, he declines to do so.

Dunno where this is true.

Care to elaborate on... anything?

{words}

If you want to get technical, then I suppose that's an elaboration of a previous game.

Clarification was not elaboration last time I consulted a dictionary.

I certainly don't want to speak for NabNab, but I thought it was pretty apparent he was referring to your vote.

I confess that "care to elaborate on anything?" referring specifically to my vote on him was not apparent to me. I actually thought it was rhetorical, but I figure #145 woulda answered it if not.

I honestly confused you for someone else, initially.

Haha, awesome.

[Ectomancer]

The latter I can only guess is something Elmo does regardless of alignment? I still don't like it.

No, c'mon Jah, think about it - I'd never be this anti-town if I was actually scum

You should just stick to being vague and mysterious.

[Ectomancer]

Jahudo is likely town.

[Incognito]

@McGriddle:

Thanks. Yeah, I can definitely see a difference in play in that game when compared to here. pops looked like he was producing more in the way of content and seemed to take the game a bit more seriously. That play there is actually more in line with the play I remember from the game I modded him in where he was also town.

Jahudo is likely town.

What makes you say that?

[Ectomancer]

Mind control.

[NabakovNabakov]

I can still get behind the idea of finding Elmo hard to read, when he doesn't explain what he's thinking, but Nabakov's method is questionable upon a second look. His question here:

Oh, hi Elmo, nice of you to show up 8 minutes after someone first asked for your opinion on something. Care to elaborate on... anything?

Looks like a setup to confirm his suspicion in the second post here...

Well, I'm clearly not happy with Elmo's contribution so far. An unaccompanied random vote I can handle, but staying entirely out of discussion until somebody specifically asks for his opinion is just bad form. Even when he gives his opinion, as with his vote, there's nothing to support it.

No matter how Elmo would have responded or not responded. He asks Elmo to elaborate on his opinions then says Elmo is only contributing when people are asking him to elaborate on his opinions.

If you're trying to prove your theory, it would make more sense to actually wait and see if Elmo contributed on his own. What wold have been the acceptable response?

After you get a read that a player isn't contributing, waiting to call them on it in order to build some kind of case is counterproductive. Getting Elmo to elaborate >>> Nailing him on not contributing. I've already said that I'm interested in what he thinks, and I stick by calling his play bad form rather than scummy (this whole issue is probably playstyle difference). However, the message that Elmo doesn't feel like telling me what he thinks certainly got through in 145, which is why I haven't really bothered to ask why he's voting me.

-------
I guess the problem I'm still having with McGriddle is that I really don't see where there's an ounce of suspicion in this post:

Well, I have played a game before in which pops was a high PR, and I was also town, and from my experience, pops was a huge leader in that game, and posted a lot of good content. Something I see lacking in here. I think it wise to look into that, meaning, I don't know neccesarilly if he is scum, but he could either be scum or vanilla townie, I can't see him as a PR.

So smuggling suspicion into that post (like McGriddle did in 80) is suspect. McGriddle has since provided more explanation of that meta, and maybe the lack of expressing suspicion in 59 was just an oversight.

I don't really get why he unvoted pops in consideration of voting me or Jahudo. He's said that it's his suspicion of me that has increased, and his suspicion of pops has remained constant. Unvoting only has bearing on pops, so unvoting when his position with respect to pops hasn't changed doesn't make sense. Further, if he really thinks I'm more likely to be scum than pops, why the hell isn't he voting me? Maybe making the 5th consecutive reasonless vote on this wagon seems like a dangerous play if this whole things goes belly up.

[Goatrevolt]

I could actually go for a few more reasonless votes on the wagon.

I've been pretty sure Nab is scum since the point I FoS'd him but I wanted to wait it out and see how things progressed. At that point I didn't have much more than gut against him, which obviously wasn't going to convince anyone, as demonstrated by my pops case, and there was no real point in trying to push a case that had no legs against him.

One really key interaction I noted was the one between SerialClergyman and Nabakov. If Nabakov ends up as scum, I bet SC is as well. SC called out Nabakov, but didn't vote him in that post. I found that really odd at the time, and then when called out on it by Red Coyote, he votes for Red Coyote next, and never goes back to Nabakov, which I also found odd. When the Nabakov wagon picks up, SerialClergyman jumps on immediately. Distance, distance, distance! There is a strong chance the two are scum together.

I think Pops could be the 3rd. No content this game at all. I still find some of his early posting to be off, and then there is the thing with him claiming to not have known I unvoted, despite having responded to the sentence directly above my unvote. It's possible that he legitimately forgot or didn't notice, but it's definitely weird.

In addition, SerialClergyman ignored my pops case (he says he chose not to respond to it on purpose, but meh) and then after it became clear that it wasn't gaining any support, he "pops" in to say he doesn't find it that convincing and then does the whole Nab/RC thing. Nabakov tried to discredit part of my push against pops while also pushing pops himself for differing reasons, which is why I initially found him suspicious. As soon as the pops thing died out, Nabakov basically just kind of stopped putting any pressure on pops anymore.

Despite that, I'm not totally sold on pops being the 3rd.

I think RedCoyote is town, despite some skepticism over his play. This is mainly based on his interactions with other players, namely how his wagon and pressure aimed at him started up in opposition to the pressure I had on pops and opposed to Serial's "pressure" on Nabakov.

Incognito has felt town through and through.

Elmo has felt fairly town, and his interactions with Nabakov cement that if Nab is scum.

McGriddle has felt town as well. In direct opposition to Nabakov's push, I felt like his stance on pops was natural and honest.

I've picked up a few town tells from Iamusername, but I'm not sure how strong they are. Probably town if Nab is scum, though. 4th vote on the wagon for a good reason gives me a good feeling.

Patrick, not sure. Elmo thinks town and the two seem to have a history together. I've waffled some on it, but I've found his recent posts to be good, so he's not a huge suspect right now.

Ectomancer - Like I said, I can't read him at all. Might be able to peg him as scum based on virtue of process of elimination/his stances, but at this point it's hard to tell.

Jahudo - Unless he's decided to shed his busing meta, he's probably town if Nabakov is scum. Weak read, though.

[SerialClergyman]

Goat pretty genius. Current theory is that I ignored his case on a possible innocent to stick it to my scum mate.

Still, my bad for saying 'he earns my vote' without actually typing the vote bit - apparantly indicative of me secretly protecting him from the non-existant wagon that I started to distance from him.

Anyways - if we're all so keen on Nabscum, lynch time?

[McGriddle]

*Sigh* Fine Nab, the only reason I didn't vote fo you was because I was going to go back and ISO you, but I don't have time for that so

Vote: NabakovNabakov

[SerialClergyman]

><

[Goatrevolt]

Goat pretty genius. Current theory is that I ignored his case on a possible innocent to stick it to my scum mate.

1. "possible" innocent.
2. Your "stick it to my scum mate" involves calling him out for one thing, not voting, and never going back to it until the wagon on him appears, where you then decided it was time to vote him. You found him scummy enough to vote, but didn't vote and instead voted someone else. And then when I asked you about it, you said you weren't sold to Nab, but when the wagon sprung up you jumped aboard pretty quickly.
3. Even if pops is innocent, not joining a wagon on an innocent, especially one who is the popular suspect at the time is hardly a surprising scum move, especially when factoring in the prior timing concerns with how you handled the pops case.

[Ectomancer]

Nabs 187 makes sense to me. I'm also apparently in the dark as to why Nab is the flag we are running up the pole.

192 nicely disarms 189

@Goat - I can't really complain that Red isn't giving the answer I am after when I don't know exactly what it should be. But basically, he side-slipped the answer to why he felt the need to spend several posts breaking down a starter case he didn't think came from scum. He only gives reasons he didn't do

something else

not why he did what he did.
An

honest

answer would have been maybe "I don't know", or "I thought it would be helpful to clarify that case for those who didn't know", or I guess a number of other answers

that actually addresses that question[/u] would be adequate. But when I ask "Why did you feel the need to totally breakdown Goat's non-scummy starter case?", I am definitely NOT looking for "Oh, well my vote was going somewhere else, but those guys weren't scummy haha."

In other words, he has twice posted a reply, ostensibly to answer that question, but his answers belonged to a different textbook.

[Goatrevolt]

In other words, he has twice posted a reply, ostensibly to answer that question, but his answers belonged to a different textbook.

Can you show me where both of these are?

As for Nab, I don't have time to post a case right now, but I'll try to get on that today or tonight. The general gist involves our interactions at the beginning of the game, his vote on McGriddle, interactions with Elmo, and attitude toward the wagon on him. The McGriddle vote felt like an attempt to frame a possibly scummy McGriddle as scum rather than a legitimate feeling that he was scum.

[SerialClergyman]

Ecto - it attempts to disarm HALF of 189, completely ignoring the fact that I was apparantly distancing from Nabarov when he was under no pressure, and afraid to vote him when he was under no pressure.

As for his points:

1. This shows your theory of the game is at least partially self-contradictory.
2. Nabarov answered my criticism, Red pushed up his scumminess. When I came back, he and jahudo had attempted to disarm my town read of Ecto is a scummy way.
3. It may not be surprising, but you're using it as evidence against me. You're suggesting that it's likely that Serial(scum) is more likely to completely ignore a giftwrapped case on Pops(???) and instead push (however feebly in your opinion) suspicion on Nabarov(scum mate). I can't see any reason beyond WIFOM to accept that.

Neither of you mentioned McGriddle's bizarre, selfadmitted-ignorant vote. Thoughts?

[Patrick]

I support the wagon on NabakovNabakov but not going to put him at lynch-1 now. His attack on McGriddle looked less like he was interested in his alignment and more like he just wanted to make a case against him. If he's scum there's a possibility he was trying to turn attention away from RedCoyote or pops with this. This strikes me as unreasonable:

I don't really get why he unvoted pops in consideration of voting me or Jahudo. He's said that it's his suspicion of me that has increased, and his suspicion of pops has remained constant. Unvoting only has bearing on pops, so unvoting when his position with respect to pops hasn't changed doesn't make sense. Further, if he really thinks I'm more likely to be scum than pops, why the hell isn't he voting me? Maybe making the 5th consecutive reasonless vote on this wagon seems like a dangerous play if this whole things goes belly up.

The second half I could see someone thinking at a pinch but the first half looks contrived. Suspicion of players is relative, so even if someone's thoughts on a player don't change they can still become more suspicious of someone else. I don't see anything unusual about what McGriddle did.

I don't like this from Jahudo in isolation:

I can still get behind the idea of finding Elmo hard to read, when he doesn't explain what he's thinking, but Nabakov's method is questionable upon a second look. His question here:

Oh, hi Elmo, nice of you to show up 8 minutes after someone first asked for your opinion on something. Care to elaborate on... anything?

Looks like a setup to confirm his suspicion in the second post here...

Well, I'm clearly not happy with Elmo's contribution so far. An unaccompanied random vote I can handle, but staying entirely out of discussion until somebody specifically asks for his opinion is just bad form. Even when he gives his opinion, as with his vote, there's nothing to support it.

No matter how Elmo would have responded or not responded. He asks Elmo to elaborate on his opinions then says Elmo is only contributing when people are asking him to elaborate on his opinions.

Jahudo had previously been ok with Nabakov's pressure on Elmo, and I don't see specifically what was wrong with what Nabakov did here. He called Elmo out then later expanded on what he dislikes, what's the "setup" aspect of this and why is it scummy?

Goatrevolt: are you feeling that if Nabakov and Jahudo were scum together Jahudo would bus earlier? When I saw the above I have to say bus was the first word that popped into my head, and I'm not really feeling much townness from him. I was quite surprised to see two people express town reads on Jahudo shortly after this.

Neither of you mentioned McGriddle's bizarre, selfadmitted-ignorant vote. Thoughts?

My thought is it's rather brazen for scum to do, but I've waffled over that a bit. What do you think about it?

[SerialClergyman]

I think it's enough to make me doubt my thoughts somewhat. Brazen assumes he knew the impact it would have. But on the other hand, I agree that it's unlikely he thought he could just sort of slip in like that, presumably scum would come up with a reason from the reread.

[SerialClergyman]

People Serial wouldn't lynch today include:

Incognito
Goatrevolt
iamausername
Patrick
Ectomancer

and himself.

[Goatrevolt]

@Serial: why aren't you still voting RC? Explain your thought process in swapping from RC to Nabakov when you did. Your answer to #2 suggests suspicion of RC and then increased suspicion based on him trying to discredit your Ecto read. When I asked you how you felt about Nabakov, you said you weren't really sure on him. Somewhere in there Nabakov not only passed RC's suspicion but became suspicious enough to where you were fine with his lynch.

I'm not surprised by McGriddle's vote considering he had basically announced his intentions to do so already, and I agree with the idea that he'd probably try to come up with a reason based on the iso read as scum.

@Patrick: I'll look at Jahudo more closely later. You might be right. My thought is that he would bus earlier, but I need to analyze his stances with respect to the wagon closer.