Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[Elmo]

all aboard!

I think popsofctown is town, fwiw.

[Ectomancer]

I appreciated Patrick's breakdown, and not meaning to sound critical of Goat's, but I think creating a cheat sheet of where suspicions converge is not really desirable. It may make it easier to lynch, but that's not as good an idea as it sounds. Better to make it difficult. Scum have to make more noise that way.

[Jahudo]

I don't see how Ectomancer's post 129 is a town tell, or gives anyone the good feelings. It looks like something he could easily talk about as either alignment, since its mostly in generalizations about how he'll play. It means zilch to me, but I don't see anything from him that looks suspicious.

RedCoyote doesn't look passive-aggressive to me. The contradiction he thought he found on SerialClergyman looked more like he was trying to get a better understanding of those two quotes, rather than try and sit on the fence. Up until his Elmo vote I think he's was posting more reactionary than proactively, as in forming his posts around responses to other people's posts, which could benefit him if he was scum having a hard time forming original content.

I don't agree with Nabakov's McGriddle case over the "bad scum" and "only non-invitation" points. They looked like normal responses, nothing to gain or lose. But I don't see how that translates to Nabakov being scum.
And I do agree with Nabakov on how Elmo hasn't explained his position on anything yet despite his votes. I don't know if this is normal Elmo-play or not.

McGriddle didn't mention the circumstances of the game where pops was a vocal leader. That would be important when trying to argue that pops is "lacking" something here. @McGriddle: Is pops right about the circumstances of that game? Was it breakable?

popsofctown is aware of his fluff meta, and I think he could use it as scum to try and hide behind this null tell. I don't mind some of his jokes, as long as he doesn't use it to deflect from attention. Post 99 looks like deflection. I think he tried to redirect Goat's feelings about him into the fluff posting tell.

unvote;
Vote: popsofctown

[Elmo]

Greetings, myself and my associate Nabakov are your assigned nightkill provision officers for this game, please don't hesitate to ask us if you have any enquiries

[SerialClergyman]

I was thinking the same thing could be possible, Elmo.

unvote, vote Nabakov

[Goatrevolt]

Wouldn't be surprised if Serial or Pops or both are scum with Nab.

[NabakovNabakov]

Reading over Nabakov's case against McGriddle, I found it unconvincing. I thought McGriddle's bad scum card read fairly naturally and not like something put in to try and lull people into a false sense of security (also, based on a small snapshot, I think it's true). The first point has a bit of a cooked up feel to it.

I don't agree with Nabakov's McGriddle case over the "bad scum" and "only non-invitation" points. They looked like normal responses, nothing to gain or lose.

The issue of McGriddle pre-making excuses isn't the heart of my case. How about his sneaking onto the pops wagon?

[popsofctown]

I don't see how Ectomancer's post 129 is a town tell, or gives anyone the good feelings. It looks like something he could easily talk about as either alignment, since its mostly in generalizations about how he'll play. It means zilch to me, but I don't see anything from him that looks suspicious.

RedCoyote doesn't look passive-aggressive to me. The contradiction he thought he found on SerialClergyman looked more like he was trying to get a better understanding of those two quotes, rather than try and sit on the fence. Up until his Elmo vote I think he's was posting more reactionary than proactively, as in forming his posts around responses to other people's posts, which could benefit him if he was scum having a hard time forming original content.

I don't agree with Nabakov's McGriddle case over the "bad scum" and "only non-invitation" points. They looked like normal responses, nothing to gain or lose. But I don't see how that translates to Nabakov being scum.
And I do agree with Nabakov on how Elmo hasn't explained his position on anything yet despite his votes. I don't know if this is normal Elmo-play or not.

McGriddle didn't mention the circumstances of the game where pops was a vocal leader. That would be important when trying to argue that pops is "lacking" something here. @McGriddle: Is pops right about the circumstances of that game? Was it breakable?

popsofctown is aware of his fluff meta, and I think he could use it as scum to try and hide behind this null tell. I don't mind some of his jokes, as long as he doesn't use it to deflect from attention. Post 99 looks like deflection. I think he tried to redirect Goat's feelings about him into the fluff posting tell.

unvote;
Vote: popsofctown

Jahudo, why did I post fluff in Mafia Jailbreak?

[Ectomancer]

What I mean by that is you've spent the bulk of your time going back and forth with me and yet you don't even believe me to be scum, or at least you aren't pushing for it.

I'll have to concede that I'm not doing a very good job here. I should definitely have some sort of bankable vote. Is it my fault that I liked the answers that McGriddle and SC both gave me? XD

Conceding you aren't doing well isn't really a point in your favor.
What does having a bankable vote have to do with spending your time on Goat? You mean it would provide a better backdrop while you banter with the guy you don't think is scummy?
What does McGriddle and SC have to do with you and Goat?

Vote: Elmo

on the back of NabNab's post 100. I'd argue she's the last player to make a "real" post, and there's really nothing there that gives it substance. I'm not opposed to dropping a vote like that in principle, but I am opposed to it when there's both been no record of your perspective in the game and you've also failed to give more insight when asked to do so. It's nice that she showed up the second someone asked about her, but what little the response has to offer is steeped in a previous game's meta.

This is bankable? Elmo's slightly annoying playstyle thus far? So, like this is the case you would ride to lynch? I don't buy that.
No, this is a placeholder. This is being busy and sweeping the Goat interaction under the rug.

[RedCoyote]

I post fluff with both alignments now. I found out it's actually pretty fun.

I guess the only way for us to figure you out is through a lynch?

---

I don't have much of a read on anyone else except pops.

I don't think that's going to cut it, McGriddle.

---

I think the above is both utterly believable and very unlikely to come from scum.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

I don't really get this. Could either of you expand on it? Sure, I believe Ecto and Goat have a history and now are trying to treat each other differently, how does that influence either of their alignments?

---

So, assuming McGriddle's suspicion of pops' is based on goat's case or some derivative of it, his only real contribution to the game has been a reason to preemptively doubt any non-vanilla claims pops might make. Funny how this obtuse piece of analysis just happens to play into the dominant wagon.

Even though I agree with you in principle the only reason why I can't get behind this is because I happen to be well aware of how McGriddle came to his conclusion. He isn't wrong, and his meta of pops as a leading figure isn't something he pulled out of thin air. That being said, the way he's gone about voting him is awkward to say the least, and especially this quote above (post #124) where I'm sensing a resistance to really do more than dip his toe into the game.

---

Untrue, I have been doing what I can to help town, and also answering any questions I have been asked. Could you tell me how that is scummy?

I wouldn't agree with this, and I think you're proving NabNab's point.

---

Oh, okay.

I don't find anything important thus far.

You've even got the little Cookie Monster trollface going on. I love it. XD

---

In his first post he felt the need to approve iamausername's random stage vote on him, which is odd.

I was trying more to acknowledge that I got the joke.

I'd like RedCoyote to clarify what his current stance on Goatrevolt is. He's called him unnatural and fake sounding but also said that he doesn't find him scummy.

Originally I didn't, but I sensed an uneasiness about him in his reply to me. I specifically said that I didn't think he was scummy, as you pointed out, but then I found myself on the receiving end on a series of questions that I thought was over-the-top (e.g. "What do you mean box in?", "How was it problematic?", "Need versus appear?"). Goat acknowledges that he was defending himself against my "attack", when in reality I was acting fairly neutral. If I wanted to make more of what Goat was doing, then I had a vote to use. I also could've jumped in earlier to question Goat's motivations, but I didn't really think it was a big deal, hence why I specifically said that I didn't think he was scummy. Ecto takes it a step further to say I was delibrately being subtle and passive aggressive, mostly because I should've treated Goat's original case more delicately.

If an analogy helps: I looked at Goat and saw a molehill, Goat says that I saw a hill, and Ecto argues that I was sneakily trying to point out a mountain.

---

What does having a bankable vote have to do with spending your time on Goat? You mean it would provide a better backdrop while you banter with the guy you don't think is scummy?

That's too simplistic of a summary. Goat made it clear in an earlier post that he noticed that I hadn't voted anyone, and this was an extension of that same theme.

Additionally, just because I thought Goat v.s. pops wasn't scummy doesn't necessarily mean I'm sold on his towniness. I mean, that was the entire reason why I fired back at him. You understand that, right?

What does McGriddle and SC have to do with you and Goat?

My vote was headed in either direction until both players cut my legs out from under me.

Elmo's slightly annoying playstyle thus far? So, like this is the case you would ride to lynch? I don't buy that.

Why not? If Elmo's contributions are limited to "X is a good post" and "Y is town", then there's no reason to keep him around. There's no vulnerability in that. When asked to clarify, he declines to do so. Elmo says nothing important is going on, and yet he found two townies already. That's pretty pro, huh?

[Hoopla]

Day 1, Vote Count #7

With twelve alive, it takes

7

votes to lynch. Deadline is schedueled for 7:00AM GMT, April 26th <Countdown>.

popsofctown

-

3

(McGriddle, Incognito, Jahudo)

NabakovNabakov

-

3

(Elmo, Goatrevolt, SerialClergyman)

RedCoyote

-

2

(iamausername, Ectomancer)

Goatrevolt

-

2

(Patrick, popsofctown)

Elmo

-

1

(RedCoyote)

McGriddle

-

1

(NabakovNabakov)

[iamausername]

Unvote, Vote: NabakovNabakov

I want to see how many votes it takes for him to start acknowledging them.

[Elmo]

You've even got the little Cookie Monster trollface going on. I love it. XD

Ain't it cute?

When asked to clarify, he declines to do so.

Dunno where this is true.

p.s. The music for this is really damn catchy.
p.p.s. Out of curiosity, why do you think you started out referring to me as she?

[NabakovNabakov]

When asked to clarify, he declines to do so.

Dunno where this is true.

Technically correct. All requests to clarify or elaborate on your opinions have been ignored rather than declined. Though I don't really know if that counts for anything.

Even though I agree with you in principle the only reason why I can't get behind this is because I happen to be well aware of how McGriddle came to his conclusion. He isn't wrong, and his meta of pops as a leading figure isn't something he pulled out of thin air. That being said, the way he's gone about voting him is awkward to say the least, and especially this quote above (post #124) where I'm sensing a resistance to really do more than dip his toe into the game.

So you're saying McGriddle is going beyond "pops is a leading figure when he is a town PR" to saying "pops is a leading figure when he is town." What about the fact that pops' leading role in that game was to break it, something that isn't really possible in this game at this point?

[Goatrevolt]

Unvote, Vote: NabakovNabakov

I want to see how many votes it takes for him to start acknowledging them.

It's 3 more .

[Incognito]

Back from the exam from hell. I should be ok activity-wise for awhile hopefully. Trying to catch up now.

Oh, hi Elmo, nice of you to show up 8 minutes after someone first asked for your opinion on something

This is ringing my scumdar.

With respect to NabNab or with respect to Elmo?

So you're happy with Elmo's contribution level?

At the time that I wrote that, I still felt like he could get more involved. Although, fwiw, I thought his return post where he just came in and voted Ecto was probably more likely to be done by Elmo-town than Elmo-scum. Since that time, I'm feeling better about him. After all, he posted Cookie Monster. Elmo posting Cookie Monster = Elmo practically confirmed town.

-~-~

I disagree with NabNab's case on McGriddle; he states that McGriddle's vote "just so happens to play into the dominant wagon" but at the time that McG voted, I certainly wouldn't have considered the pops wagon to be the dominant one. McG's vote placed pops at 2 votes when RedCoyote's wagon was the clear leader at that point. I don't see the other point about playing the invitational card either; maybe if McGriddle said something like "I suck compared to you guys, so TAKE IT EASY ON ME!" I might be able to see what NabNab is getting at. McG said something distinctly different there.

Also, I didn't like how NabNab classified Elmo's play as "just bad form" when stating he finds him suspicious. To me, saying someone's behavior is "just bad form" kinda implies anti-town-ness rather than true scumminess.

It was the Incog one that got me the most, considering that he wasn't even asking you anything.

I did ask him something though.

I like the wagon on NabNab and could probably lend my support to it too. Still feel like pops needs to produce more though before I decide if I wanna change my vote or not.

gonna break this into another post since this one's getting kinda long.

[Incognito]

Not too much more to cover. Patrick's 146 gives me a much better vibe about him, but I'm still kinda worried about it - I remember getting a bad vibe from him in the last game we played together, then he put out a post that made me feel better about him, and I wrote him off as town when he was scum.

Incognito actually seemed kind of off to me, but his last post changed my mind.

I did? What seemed off about me?

As for your question about RC, I'm having a hard time getting a read on him too. I don't like his Elmo-vote, or his further explanation of it, and I've disagreed with a few of his other positions too.

Why not? If Elmo's contributions are limited to "X is a good post" and "Y is town", then there's no reason to keep him around. There's no vulnerability in that. When asked to clarify, he declines to do so.

Where did Elmo decline to elaborate on his reads?


Jahudo feels background-ish to me again, even with his latest post.

And I need sleep. I only got 2 hours of it last night. I'll try and pick up where I left off later.

[Jahudo]

@Incog, Patrick: you've both said you don't like Nabakov's case on McGriddle, but I think you've ignored a part of it that he also repeated just recently. And I don't see where the other votes have given reasoning yet, so no one has explained why this is bad:

I was telling everyone that my reasoning behind it was not so we knew who had/didn't have a PR, but that because of this he is more likely to be scum, and less likely to be detrimental.

Which is, how did McGriddle go from thinking pops was either scum or Vanilla townie, to thinking pops was more likely scum?

And McGriddle also hasn't defended the accuracy of this tell, which has been called into question. (pops claimed he was a leader in another game because it was breakable; it might not be a comparable situation) So no, I don't think the Nabakov case is inherently wrong.

-------------------

Jahudo, why did I post fluff in Mafia Jailbreak?

A quick re-read seems that it was for starting discussion. The difference in this game is that discussion is well on its way, but your image of goatrevolt looks like its trying to wedge his focus.

-------------------

@McGriddle: when did you think you had originally voted pops?

I thought I had already done this but I didn't, Unvote, Vote:Pops

[Jahudo]

EBWOP: That Nabakov quote should be:

The one thing he's taken initiative on was 59, where he claims pops can't have be a power-role. At first, this just struck me as some sloppy analysis, but things really get interesting in 80, where he sneaks in a declaration of pops' scumminess when the post in question had only dealt with PR status regardless of alignment.

[McGriddle]

@Incog, Patrick: you've both said you don't like Nabakov's case on McGriddle, but I think you've ignored a part of it that he also repeated just recently. And I don't see where the other votes have given reasoning yet, so no one has explained why this is bad:

I was telling everyone that my reasoning behind it was not so we knew who had/didn't have a PR, but that because of this he is more likely to be scum, and less likely to be detrimental.

Which is, how did McGriddle go from thinking pops was either scum or Vanilla townie, to thinking pops was more likely scum?

Before I answer this, you know it was me that said this, not Nab right?

And McGriddle also hasn't defended the accuracy of this tell, which has been called into question. (pops claimed he was a leader in another game because it was breakable; it might not be a comparable situation) So no, I don't think the Nabakov case is inherently wrong.

I did defend it, to the best of my ability, considering I stated it wasn't a strong case.

-------------------

Jahudo, why did I post fluff in Mafia Jailbreak?

A quick re-read seems that it was for starting discussion. The difference in this game is that discussion is well on its way, but your image of goatrevolt looks like its trying to wedge his focus.

-------------------

@McGriddle: when did you think you had originally voted pops?

I thought I had already done this but I didn't, Unvote, Vote:Pops

When I stated my tell against him. I thought I had voted as well, but I didn't. So really the argument that I hopped on a "dominant" wagon is null, considering I would have been first on it, and since I wasn't I was only 2nd.

[McGriddle]

I see. Anyways:

Which is, how did McGriddle go from thinking pops was either scum or Vanilla townie, to thinking pops was more likely scum?

I didn't just go from thinking he was VT or Scum to thinking he was more likely to be scum. All along I have had these feelings about him. I stated that he is not likely a PR, which dwindles the possibility of him being town faction down. All I am saying, at a weak case, is that he played more dominantly in the other game where he was a strong leader and he was a PR from the TOWN faction. I saw a lot of difference in this game via his play style. Which makes me think, "Oh, dominant when he is town, so less likely to be aggressive means he is scum." Nothing wrong with that. Although I don't feel the same way now as I did, I still find him scummy, but I also see a possible you and nab pairing, so for that reason I am going to

Unvote

and hold my vote for a little while. My top suspicions right now are you and nab though so IGMEOY.

[Patrick]

My wariness at the moment is because in the game so much of day 1 was spent discussing the mechanics, and he pretty much completely snowed me.

As in what?

As in, I don't remember ever thinking he was scummy.

popsofctown is annoying and unhelpful but pretty neutral to me. At the risk of overusing the word, I think Jahudo's vote on him looks strained. A vote to pressure him into contributing more I can see, but a charge of deflection for posting that picture is a stretch, I think. I saw the picture more as a piss-take than anything else.

I did? What seemed off about me?

Your comment about Ectomancer's loose voting struck me as the kind of dense comment you might make as scum since he's only cast two serious votes so far and I'm pretty sure you've seen much more off the wall play than that in the early stages of the game. For some reason I was immediately reminded of your read on Coriolanus in SPQR, even though I don't think you made a comment about his voting style, just a vague statement about getting weird vibes from his play when his play struck me as pretty normal. Your expansion on Ectomancer made more sense and I can see where you're coming from even though I don't particularly agree with your interpretation.

Red/Nabs, is Elmo more likely than average to be scum?

Both Jahudo and Nabakov have brought up the point about McGriddle sneaking into being suspicious of pops. I'd rather not answer too much on McGriddle's behalf but I read his earlier post as stating some kind of suspicion of pops, so I don't see it as an inconsistency.

Maybe more after food and political debates.

[Jahudo]

McGriddle, you still haven't explained why this is a comparable situation to the other game. Pops said that game was broken, which explains why he was a leader. If the game, and not his alignment, caused the tell then how is this a comparable situaton?

What's my connection to Nabakov? I disagree with all but one point on his McGriddle case--the one that ties into my point--and I agreed with him that Elmo wasn't explaining his positions. The latter I can only guess is something Elmo does regardless of alignment? I still don't like it.

[Elmo]

The latter I can only guess is something Elmo does regardless of alignment? I still don't like it.

No, c'mon Jah, think about it - I'd never be this anti-town if I was actually scum

[McGriddle]

McGriddle, you still haven't explained why this is a comparable situation to the other game. Pops said that game was broken, which explains why he was a leader. If the game, and not his alignment, caused the tell then how is this a comparable situaton?

He thought it was broken and that only by the use of Command Points we found out who all was scum. Town ended up losing anyways so it wasn't TOO broken. He was a Commander and he was very dominant. Why he is bringing up that it was a flawed game, idk, it has nothing to do with his actions as we didn't find out it wsa flawed right away anyways.

What's my connection to Nabakov? I disagree with all but one point on his McGriddle case--the one that ties into my point--and I agreed with him that Elmo wasn't explaining his positions. The latter I can only guess is something Elmo does regardless of alignment? I still don't like it.

I get a gut buddying feel for you 2.