Newbie 922: Day 3

[Acosmist]

Oh and ~72 hours to deadline, will get up key points tonight or after classes tomorrow, will likely lay pseudo-vote claim dependent. We need that claim ASAP

Dude he's not at L-1

Votecount
Nachomamma8 - 2 (havingfitz, Ellibereth)
havingfitz - 2 (Acosmist, Nachomamma8)

Not Voting - 3 (Furry, Panacea, Elementary Fermion)

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

[Furry]

Oh and ~72 hours to deadline, will get up key points tonight or after classes tomorrow, will likely lay pseudo-vote claim dependent. We need that claim ASAP

Dude he's not at L-1

Then you should stop voting people you are already voting, it confuses me quite a bit. I still want him to claim because im going to be voting him by this time tomorrow unless something drastic happens. A claim can only speed things up.

72 hours still applies though

[Acosmist]

Oh and ~72 hours to deadline, will get up key points tonight or after classes tomorrow, will likely lay pseudo-vote claim dependent. We need that claim ASAP

Dude he's not at L-1

Then you should stop voting people you are already voting, it confuses me quite a bit. I still want him to claim because im going to be voting him by this time tomorrow unless something drastic happens. A claim can only speed things up.

72 hours still applies though

Your avatar terrifies me.

Let's call it even.

[havingfitz]

No more convenient? OK, champ.

This sort of response is below you. But as your point was invalid, I guess it’s the best you could do.

I voted Cojin (for the last time) over a week prior to his claim so at the time it wasn’t “the doctor’s wagon”...it was “the cr@p player who was my top suspect” wagon.

We don't lynch players for playing like crap, we lynch them for being scum. But you'll deny up and down that it was a policy lynch.

You are dense. Voting a player and providing multiple reasons for finding the player suspicious, above and beyond points which were initially unclear, is not a policy lynch. HF ISOs 54, 58, 69 have already explained this.

And you don't get any points for having your vote on Cojin before he claimed doctor if you subsequently failed to get off him when it was the manifestly town-optimal thing to do.

You claimed I conveniently jumped off Lawls to get on a doc wagon. That is a lie. There was no doc wagon, or claimed doc wagon at the time.

Scum fakeclaim. Cojin wasn't even in a position to need a fakeclaim iirc...L-2? At that point the benefit to scumCojin fakeclaiming far outweighed the benefit to townCojin claiming. There is no way to prove a Doc claim (other than in death) so scum do it. How would fakeclaiming doc scum be uncovered? You infer it was manifestly bad to not believe the doc claim but I disagree for the points I just brought up. And Nacho's persistence on the Cojin wagon after the claim followed by his very opportunistic switch...without any mention of the doc claim as a reason... is by far more scummy.

What reasoning would scumHF have to continue pushing the Cojin wagon when Lawls had momentum at various points of the game and with a doc claim....that is an option for a PR-NK.

How were my interactions with Lawls scummy or half hearted?

Lawls was going down (four votes on him before you got off the wagon) and you didn't want to be on the town wagon. You keep saying scum had to be on that wagon, so it's easy to infer a conscious strategy to leave Lawls alone, but let others lynch him, so you can bolster your townie cred. It's clumsy, but you didn't expect this much backlash in a newbie game. Either you really thought you could get away with lynching Cojin instead (you really think your pretexts were solid, and you regarded me as a lone voice in dissent who could be taken care of at any time) or you just thought getting rid of the doctor day 1 was too tempting to pass up.

You make a lot of assumptions in this comment and yes....they are all inaccurate. You are scum’s best friend (or scum). And your either/or example conveniently leaves out the option where I am town and thought I was voting fakeclaiming scum.

It’s easy to throw a comment like that out without supporting it.

hey in that vein (not supporting things), don't you owe me a reply to my actual post rather than the strawman you aimed at (the summary)?

If it wasn’t answered above ask it again.

Was the fact I didn’t lynch a townie scummy?

Yes.

I think you asked that question thinking it was absurd, but

of course

not lynching a townie can be scummy.

It wasn’t absurd. The situations where not lynching a townie is scummy are far outweighed by them not being scummy.

Are the people who did vote out the townie scummy?

Not all of them, and certainly not merely because they did it. Five votes to lynch, and only two scum in this game. Do the math.

But some of them. And town getting it wrong (soon to be a trend). Ummm...3 townies on the Lawls wagon? Sounds good to me.

[havingfitz]

NACHO: Earlier you mentioned something about fitz/ray team and a good reason for it and you wanted me to find it. I gave up before I started. Tell me please.

Not until havingfitz flips scum.

PS:

Vote: havingfitz

Any reasons for your vote other than self preservation?

Who is scum with a HF town flip?
********************************
@Furry....VT of course.

[Furry]

He [nacho] said he hated the Lawls lynch (which I see as - oh whoa is me...I really hate to do this) and as I said...did not even use the doc claim as justification for his move off Cojin.

1. Iirc, his vote was all over the place, which...as a matter of opinion, strikes me as suspicious. Especially in conjunction with the last vote and reasons provided for it.

Do you think town-nacho would have not voted for lawls for the no lynch? Like I said, ive seen two scenarios over 40-50 games here where I would have prefered a no lynch to a lynch, and both of those were due to me being a PR in very specific situations where a no lynch would have given town a slight edge with my ensuing action.

This got snubbed

[havingfitz]

Do you think town-nacho would have not voted for lawls for the no lynch? Like I said, ive seen two scenarios over 40-50 games here where I would have prefered a no lynch to a lynch, and both of those were due to me being a PR in very specific situations where a no lynch would have given town a slight edge with my ensuing action.

This got snubbed

I would assume town nacho would have went for the player he thought was most scummy, not for the lynch he hated. At the time he switched votes the Cojin wagon was bigger, 4-3 iirc, and his reasoning for switching...that we were heading for a no lynch doesn't hold water as Pan could have just as easily been the Cojin hammer (don't recall what her inclinations were end of D1 because she wasn't real committed towards anyone that I can recall..even her hammer). If I don't like a lynch candidate I don't vote for them. The only time I will vote in order to save a no lynch is if I think there is a good chance the target is scum.

Do you think scum HF, knowing both Lawls and Cojin were town and therefore had more insight into the validity of Cojin's claim, would have stayed on the Cojin wagon rather than just exercise the option to NK him?

[havingfitz]

Some other musings about doc claims on day one and fakeclaiming since that appears to be the primary point against me:

Another’s thoughts on doc fakeclaims....

Example of Doc fakeclaim that still resulted in a lynch [of scum]

From the wiki...a basic 9 player setup of 2 mafia goons, 1 doctor, and the rest town (cops don't factor into this probability) with a town lynch going into the first night . . . the odds that the doctor will protect the player who is targeted by the mafia is:

(T-1) / (T*(P-1))
(6-1) / (6*(8-1))
5 / (6*7)
5 / 42
11.9%

... and only 9.5% if there is a roleblocker.

If anyone whose primary point against me revolves around my maintaining my suspicions towards Cojin after he made his Doc claim...answer me this: how was Cojin’s claim supposed to do town or him any good...if he was town? He was one of the top suspects D1, he made a PR claim when it wasn’t even necessary (L-2), and once he claimed Doc...if there was a RB, he would have signalled a cops existence to the scum as well. His claim did no good and made no sense.

I can see a lot of benefit to him claiming doc as scum (ie making it to D2 and simply saying he protected one of the townies scum decided not to kill....or by drawing out other PRs through counterclaims). Several people talked about how lynching Cojin on D1 would prevent the town from a protect (which odds were 88+% against). An 88% chance he would get his protect wrong to begin with is a good excuse to fall back on for fakeDoc.

And what would town have done if Cojin had lived through N1? Lynched him because there was no way he would have been spared? This would support the scenario I hypothesized where there was no guarantee scum would even kill him to earn another mislynch (since odds are he would screw up their NK per the odds shown above).

My continued interest in the Cojin lynch was not as scummy as some are making it out to be.

[Elementary Fermion]

Every time you talk about the doctor claim, you further weaken your own credibility.

Remember, when Cojin claimed, there were two possibilities: (1) he was town or (2) he was scum. Under possibility (1) (regardless of whether or not he was actually a doctor), lynching him would be bad. Under possibility (2), although a lynch would be good, he has locked himself into a course of conduct from which he cannot possibly retreat. We would not forget on Day 2 that he had claimed doctor on Day 1. (Some of our replacements might miss it from not reading the game, but that is another story.)

If one thing can be said for your arguments, about this you have been consistent. You have consistently maintained that lynching Cojin was the better course of action, even when you continue to present information that undermines this conclusion. You just told us that a doctor, going in to Night 1, has a better than 10% chance of preventing a nightkill. And that is based purely on random play; a minimally observant and competent doctor would likely increase that percentage based on the Day’s conversations. So now, based on information you offered, you claim that an at-worst greater than 10% chance of blocking a scum nightkill is not a sufficient reason to allow the doctor go into the night, lynching him if and when his unsustainable lie falls apart around him. Trying to deny the town a potential 1-in-10 chance of confounding scum, a potential chance

we now know that you knew about

, is as anti-town as I have heard yet in this game.

That is finally enough for me, which is why I am finally going to

Vote: havingfitz

.

[havingfitz]

Example of Doc fakeclaim that still resulted in a lynch [of scum]

EBWOP

The initial fakeclaim...

and while I’m EBWOP’ing here is another good view on Doc claims...


@Fermion...your vote is no surprise. As I am more inclined to think you are scum than your hero Acosmist.

Welcome to my #2 spot. Nacho and Fermion = scum IMO

I just looked up the percentages this morning so they did not factor into my views on Cojin. I'm merely point them out to show the people who thought the Doc would be of use that the Doc's value was limited (before a claim) and virtually nil after a claim.

Under your one and two scenarios you provide you leave out the desire for scum to live another day. If Cojin scum was still around D2 he would have at least survived the elimination of 2 townies...possibly outted other PRs, and he lives another day to try and cloud the truth.

This post wasn't necesaarily directed at you since you are untrainable and obtuse. When/if the hammer falls on VT me...who are the scum?

LyLo is just a vote away.

[Elementary Fermion]

Under your one and two scenarios you provide you leave out the desire for scum to live another day.

Yes, the possibility of doctor protection trumps scum

who cannot possibly get away

.

Thanks for putting me on your list! With the reasoning skills you put on display, this will only further my towniness in everyone else's eyes.

[havingfitz]

Under your one and two scenarios you provide you leave out the desire for scum to live another day.

Yes, the possibility of doctor protection trumps scum

The possibility was TBD by scum once Cojin had claimed. So you would rather bank on a ~12% chance someone would get a protect (assuming the claim was legitimate and

if

scum decided to pass up the NK option) for a lynch of your top suspect? Your reasoning skills are impressive too

who cannot possibly get away

.

The fakeclaimer could possibly survive D1 after facing increasing lynch pressure. Once it's a new day you have no way of knowing how things would turn out D2. "Cannot possibly" is a generalization that is in no way true. You're saying scum have never fakeclaimed and got away? I don't believe that is in any way accurate. More often than not? Perhaps...but cannot possibly is overexaggerating to discount my point. Scummy.

Thanks for putting me on your list! With the reasoning skills you put on display, this will only further my towniness in everyone else's eyes.

Or bring you some well deserved attention with my VT flip.

[Elementary Fermion]

So you would rather bank on a ~12% chance someone would get a protect (assuming the claim was legitimate and

if

scum decided to pass up the NK option) for a lynch of your top suspect?

My choices are lynch someone now, and have 0% chance of stopping a nightkill, or keep that someone in my sights, but maybe have a nearly 12% chance of stopping a nightkill? If that is what you are asking, well, yes, by golly I would take the 12% over the 0%, and lynch if and when the claim, which would be an unsustainable fakeclaim, falls apart.

Or bring you some well deserved attention with my VT flip.

Go right ahead and hammer yourself; prove me wrong.

[havingfitz]

So you would rather bank on a ~12% chance someone would get a protect (assuming the claim was legitimate and

if

scum decided to pass up the NK option) for a lynch of your top suspect?

My choices are lynch someone now, and have 0% chance of stopping a nightkill, or keep that someone in my sights, but maybe have a nearly 12% chance of stopping a nightkill? If that is what you are asking, well, yes, by golly I would take the 12% over the 0%, and lynch if and when the claim, which would be an unsustainable fakeclaim, falls apart.

Or bring you some well deserved attention with my VT flip.

Go right ahead and hammer yourself; prove me wrong.

Did you happen to peruse the links provided where players with more experience than either of us discuss the pros and cons of doc claims (for scum and town)?

I'll let someone else do the hammering...though I think both scum are already on my wagon.

Who's scum with a HF VT flip?

[Acosmist]

This sort of response is below you. But as your point was invalid, I guess it’s the best you could do.

Actually, you were begging the question. As the burden of production is on you, I'm satisfied leaving it there. I'm surprised

you're

satisfied, though.

You are dense.

Now do the trick where you deny you are using argumentum ad hominem!

Voting a player and providing multiple reasons for finding the player suspicious, above and beyond points which were initially unclear, is not a policy lynch.

He was playing like crap and his play deserved a lynch; I know, man!

HF ISOs 54, 58, 69 have already explained this.

54:

I gave plenty of reason for my suspicions towards Cojin

A mere statement that you already gave reasons, and no explanation of the supposed reasons.

58:

The play warrants a lynch line is preceded with reasons

No explanation there either.

69:

How is it? I thought Cojin’s play was scummy.

Assertion that his play was scummy without any explanation of what was scummy about it.

You start out saying you already explained yourself, then constantly point back to that bald assertion; did you hope people would not go all the way back along the chain of self-reference and notice that there wasn't actually anything there?

You claimed I conveniently jumped off Lawls to get on a doc wagon. That is a lie. There was no doc wagon, or claimed doc wagon at the time.

Cojin was the doctor. Did you read the morning scene?

Scum fakeclaim. Cojin wasn't even in a position to need a fakeclaim iirc...L-2?

Well if he wasn't in a position to need to do it...then, somehow, it follows he must have been doing it?

Logicfail.

At that point the benefit to scumCojin fakeclaiming far outweighed the benefit to townCojin claiming.

You're not Cojin, though, so why would you judge your actions from his point of view? The stench of WIFOM is wafting from this argument already.

There is no way to prove a Doc claim (other than in death) so scum do it.

If there is no way to prove a doc claim, then it's not an ironclad claim...so scum will do it? You're arguing two contradictory things here. You want to emphasize how unreliable the claim is, but you want the claim to seem like an insurmountable barrier to being lynched.

How would fakeclaiming doc scum be uncovered?

"I got this guilty result on this guy who claimed doc, what's up with that?"

One example.

You infer it was manifestly bad to not believe the doc claim but I disagree for the points I just brought up.

No, you are failing at reading comprehension again. I said nothing about believing the claim; I said it was the town-optimal thing to do not to lynch Cojin under the circumstances.

And Nacho's persistence on the Cojin wagon after the claim followed by his very opportunistic switch...without any mention of the doc claim as a reason... is by far more scummy.

You think we should lynch Nacho and then you rather than you and then Nacho? OK, I'm open to that, seeing as how

he's my second suspect

.

What reasoning would scumHF have to continue pushing the Cojin wagon when Lawls had momentum at various points of the game and with a doc claim....that is an option for a PR-NK.

Pure WIFOM. Nothing but WIFOM.

You make a lot of assumptions in this comment and yes....they are all inaccurate.

It's speculative. Deal with it.

And you again make a bald assertion that my comments were inaccurate when the very thing at issue is the purity of your motivations. That doesn't work in mafia.

You are scum’s best friend (or scum).

Bleating about how what I am doing is helping scum is not refuting my case.

And your either/or example conveniently leaves out the option where I am town and thought I was voting fakeclaiming scum.

My speculation that you are scum leaves out a situation where you are not scum? Yeah, that's how hypos work.

If it wasn’t answered above ask it again.

The one thing replying here has reminded me of is your complete lie about my Lawls reasoning, which I pointed out and you completely ignored. That was sort of a big deal in your wallreplies, and you seem to have dropped it. Sup?

It wasn’t absurd. The situations where not lynching a townie is scummy are far outweighed by them not being scummy.

Awesome; if I am doing a general commentary on all mafia games, I will include that tidbit. But, hey, right now, can we talk about this specific instance of a mafia game?

But some of them.

No, none of them are scummy merely for having voted a townie.

And town getting it wrong (soon to be a trend).

Hello, fellow medium-sized creature!

Ummm...3 townies on the Lawls wagon? Sounds good to me.

No fewer than 3 townies != exactly 3 townies

If anyone whose primary point against me revolves around my maintaining my suspicions towards Cojin after he made his Doc claim...answer me this: how was Cojin’s claim supposed to do town or him any good...if he was town?

He apparently thought we would not have psychotic doc-murderers in this game. I also did not think a person's first reaction would be to lynch the claimed doc, so I guess Cojin and I both learned a lesson.

He was one of the top suspects D1, he made a PR claim when it wasn’t even necessary (L-2), and once he claimed Doc...if there was a RB, he would have signalled a cops existence to the scum as well.

He was one of the top suspects because of your pathetic anti-case on him.

If he hadn't claimed, but had been lynched, the scum would be just as alert. What you are saying makes no sense.

His claim did no good and made no sense.

It got us you, so it did some good.

I can see a lot of benefit to him claiming doc as scum (ie making it to D2 and simply saying he protected one of the townies scum decided not to kill....or by drawing out other PRs through counterclaims).

If it was such a terrible claim as town, then it was just as bad for him as scum, because all the doubts you are casting on him now would be just as valid (not valid at all in my opinion, but this is your hypo!).

A one-for-one trade is insanely good for town. It's stunning that you think this was the danger

to the town

of a scum fakeclaim.

Several people talked about how lynching Cojin on D1 would prevent the town from a protect (which odds were 88+% against).

88 < 100

An 88% chance he would get his protect wrong to begin with is a good excuse to fall back on for fakeDoc.

"Wellp, I didn't successfully protect, but the odds were against me anyway, right?" -not dangerous to us

And what would town have done if Cojin had lived through N1? Lynched him because there was no way he would have been spared?

I don't think everyone shares your hatred of docs, man.

This would support the scenario I hypothesized where there was no guarantee scum would even kill him to earn another mislynch (since odds are he would screw up their NK per the odds shown above).

All of which assumes we autolynch Cojin day 2.

My continued interest in the Cojin lynch was not as scummy as some are making it out to be.

Then I ram my ovipositor down your throat and lay my eggs in your chest. But I'm not an alien!

I'm merely point them out to show the people who thought the Doc would be of use that the Doc's value was limited (before a claim) and virtually nil after a claim.

That is not what "nil" means.

This post wasn't necesaarily directed at you since you are untrainable and obtuse.

ad hom BS, I'm through with you

Tell us who your buddy is and then go get lynched. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Furry]

Do you think scum HF, knowing both Lawls and Cojin were town and therefore had more insight into the validity of Cojin's claim, would have stayed on the Cojin wagon rather than just exercise the option to NK him?

Of course. I know that im more inclined to stay on role claims as scum given that if you can get them lynched you can go back to killing whoever based on threat of scumhunting, likelyhood to get lynched, whatever. Having to kill Cojin stops scum from killing someone based on anything else.

math

No this is if people throw darts. Scum try to kill townie looking players, so doctors protect them. There is a higher chance that doctor blocks a kill then dart throws. I would put it around 25-35% that a doctor stops a kill any given night.

And what would town have done if Cojin had lived through N1? Lynched him because there was no way he would have been spared? This would support the scenario I hypothesized where there was no guarantee scum would even kill him to earn another mislynch (since odds are he would screw up their NK per the odds shown above).

Right, its hard to eventually figure it out. I will admit that. Town playing good though can usually nail this down a bit, especially if a scum lynch occurs. WIFOM existing does not mean you should immediately kill it at the source, just try and figure a way around it. In this game it is possible to even prove it a fakeclaim with exact flips.

~~~~

Anyways, on to things that are not 100% related to you wanting the post-claim lynch that actually are standing out just as much to me. If some of these have been gone over I apologize, but there isnt time to slog through five pages of walls anymore.

-You wanted lawls lynched it seemed like nearly untill the moment Cojin claimed, then suddenly he was town in your book. We have things like

My top two suspects remain Cojin and Lawls...though Lawls has dropped a bit down my list with his recent play. In fact..I would would group Lawls and Pan fairly close to each other a bit behind Cojin.

then

I was about to go off on you Lawls for self voting again but I don't think you hammered yourself. I think Panacea has those honors. If you are town as I suspect, I would not be shocked to find both scum on your wagon.

There is no obvious "he changed there" points though. It looks like more of a final effort to keep the wagon on cojin than anything else, desipte the counter deadline wagon forming on someone who you had thought was town for a long period of time.

-The push on nacho

[quote="HF"On further review...other than your late flip to Lawls (which was not necessary as the Cojin wagon had as much weight to it) and your ridiculous cop claim comments (which served no benefit to town interests), the only scummy thing from your pre-ISO 26 play is the fact your vote is all over the place. [/quote]

This isnt a strong case hun. The lawls lynch was the right one, regardless of what you have to say about it. IIRC you made comments about lynch always beating no lynch even. The cop thing yes, that was scummy, although the interesting thing is I dont think it holds as much water if there is no cop. Tomorrow we need to massclaim regardless of who is here and who gets lynched. Voting quite a bit also isnt that much of a tell if its justifiable.

You wanting this lynch is actually one of the bigger tells to me out there. Your three part case is
1) Wanted VT over Doc claim lynch
2) Wanted cop to claim
3) Voted early lots

I think 2 needs more elaboration... so. I dont think scum-nacho makes this request if he knows there is no cop given that he will likely take some flack for it. If there is a cop and he makes this claim, scum can get some insight into who the cop is. So this being a tell hinges on if there is a cop or not.

All I can get in for now. Will likely hammer around this time tomorrow without any epiphanies

[Acosmist]

All I can get in for now. Will likely hammer around this time tomorrow without any epiphanies

Panacea and Ellibereth should definitely post before any hammering occurs.

[Furry]

All I can get in for now. Will likely hammer around this time tomorrow without any epiphanies

Panacea and Ellibereth should definitely post before any hammering occurs.

Well deadline is just "saturday" and I usually dont get my hungover self out of bed untill noon-ish my time (early afternoon EST). I would rather end the day tomorrow night then risk no lynch

[Acosmist]

All I can get in for now. Will likely hammer around this time tomorrow without any epiphanies

Panacea and Ellibereth should definitely post before any hammering occurs.

Well deadline is just "saturday" and I usually dont get my hungover self out of bed untill noon-ish my time (early afternoon EST). I would rather end the day tomorrow night then risk no lynch

I don't like any course of action that allows players to avoid this critical phase.

[Furry]

All I can get in for now. Will likely hammer around this time tomorrow without any epiphanies

Panacea and Ellibereth should definitely post before any hammering occurs.

Well deadline is just "saturday" and I usually dont get my hungover self out of bed untill noon-ish my time (early afternoon EST). I would rather end the day tomorrow night then risk no lynch

I don't like any course of action that allows players to avoid this critical phase.

Unless we get better clarification than "saturday" im going to end it last thing friday.

[havingfitz]

No this is if people throw darts. Scum try to kill townie looking players, so doctors protect them. There is a higher chance that doctor blocks a kill then dart throws. I would put it around 25-35% that a doctor stops a kill any given night.

The whole "he might not even be the NK" was not justifying my vote on Cojin...it was pointing out a possible scenario where Cojin could even make it through the night with a fakeclaim. However, once scum knew there was a Doc I think the odds went down even further as scum would avoid targetting a protect. It's beside the point however. Cojin was scummy. I gave reasons for suspecting him of which "his play warranted it" was not a reason but an assessment of the reasons in total. Acosmist's case on me is rubbish...but he almost has the jury swayed, so well done there.

And what would town have done if Cojin had lived through N1? Lynched him because there was no way he would have been spared? This would support the scenario I hypothesized where there was no guarantee scum would even kill him to earn another mislynch (since odds are he would screw up their NK per the odds shown above).

Right, its hard to eventually figure it out. I will admit that. Town playing good though can usually nail this down a bit, especially if a scum lynch occurs. WIFOM existing does not mean you should immediately kill it at the source, just try and figure a way around it. In this game it is possible to even prove it a fakeclaim with exact flips.

How? I don't think you would be able to by D2 or 3...perhaps D4...after the benefit has been realized (ie living past D1). And town is not playing good. At least three on the first mislynch and at least 2 on the upcoming one.

-You wanted lawls lynched it seemed like nearly untill the moment Cojin claimed, then suddenly he was town in your book.

I was on Lawls and Cojin fairly equal for most of the game until I switched for the last time to Cojin.

I made my last change to Cojin over a week prior to his claim.

Not quite 'the moment' he claimed.

We have things like

My top two suspects remain Cojin and Lawls...though Lawls has dropped a bit down my list with his recent play. In fact..I would would group Lawls and Pan fairly close to each other a bit behind Cojin.

then

I was about to go off on you Lawls for self voting again but I don't think you hammered yourself. I think Panacea has those honors. If you are town as I suspect, I would not be shocked to find both scum on your wagon.

There is no obvious "he changed there" points though. It looks like more of a final effort to keep the wagon on cojin than anything else, desipte the counter deadline wagon forming on someone who you had thought was town for a long period of time.

Obvious? I took my vote off him and expressed the fact that my suspicions on Lawls were getting weaker. I wasn't prepared to annoint Lawls town, but Cojin was more scummy IMO.

-The push on nacho

On further review...other than your late flip to Lawls (which was not necessary as the Cojin wagon had as much weight to it) and your ridiculous cop claim comments (which served no benefit to town interests), the only scummy thing from your pre-ISO 26 play is the fact your vote is all over the place.

This isnt a strong case hun. The lawls lynch was the right one, regardless of what you have to say about it. IIRC you made comments about lynch always beating no lynch even. The cop thing yes, that was scummy, although the interesting thing is I dont think it holds as much water if there is no cop. Tomorrow we need to massclaim regardless of who is here and who gets lynched. Voting quite a bit also isnt that much of a tell if its justifiable.

You wanting this lynch is actually one of the bigger tells to me out there. Your three part case is
1) Wanted VT over Doc claim lynch
2) Wanted cop to claim
3) Voted early lots

I think 2 needs more elaboration... so. I dont think scum-nacho makes this request if he knows there is no cop given that he will likely take some flack for it. If there is a cop and he makes this claim, scum can get some insight into who the cop is. So this being a tell hinges on if there is a cop or not.

Your elaboration on point 2 is good but it is WIFOM. As you say...scum know there is no cop after the doc claim so why not express interest in a potential cop? The fact Nacho has said little in his defense on D2 (unlike me), voted me without providing any reasons, and has been sitting back the last few days does not feel right either.

I'm not scum.

[Panacea]

Haven't been able to load MS on my laptop for more than ten minutes at a time. I'm posting from my phone now. Please no one hammer Havingfitz til I can get to a less university, stretched-too-thin network in roughly eight/ten hours? I'll have my thoughts in well before deadline if I have to code it on my phone. (Though let's hope it doesn't come to that!)

[Ellibereth]

Seeing text/quote walls always make me want to procrastinate.
I already said earlier I narrowed it down to within Nacho, Furry, and fitz, right?
NACHO, I WANT AN EXPLANATION FOR FITZ/FURRY TEAM TODAY, BEFORE ANY LYNCHING.
I really don't believe the above is the scumteam based on the lynchwagon.
So that leaves Nacho fitz and Nacho furry...
Yeah. Nacho is still my favorite lynch. You guys do notice that he has admitted himself he has had a distinct lack of town except for one post, that's not even that townish?
Interest in still lynching someone after Doctor claim is not scummy. There was period where scum would almost always fakeclaim doctor to the point where some people just lynched all doctor claims.

Anyway, this whole thing is rather simple for me. Nacho explain to me where he's getting fitz/furry from, or else Nacho's the best lynch. I'd prefer to tell me before you guys end the day.

To that end, I'm not saying I think fitz is town. On a spectrum from towniest to scummiest It probably be Acos = Fermi, Pana, Furry = Fitz, Nacho. And if he's lynched and flipped town the team's def Nach/Furry.

[Panacea]

I'm going to keep this simple. I've made my suspicions of Havingfitz clear, and I find his explanations unsatisfactory. I wouldn't say I'm sold on the Havingfitz lynch on the basis that he is scum, but I would say that from his play so far, he has a better chance of being scum than the rest of you, and I'd definitely prefer NOT to be in a Lylo situation with him, if it comes down to that.

I had started to lean away from the Havingfitz lynch, but the line that read something like "Lylo is only one lynch away" or whatever gave me a further negative twinge.

Mod, can we get a votecount, please?

Uh...I've run through the votes three times now. It's 1:34 am and I need sleeeeeep. By my count, it's Acosmist, Nacho, Elementary. So I'm gonna

vote: Havingfitz

and leave time for a bit more discussion while I sleeeeeep... I'll be up in a bit to continue.

Where are you guys getting the time of the deadline?

[havingfitz]

I already said earlier I narrowed it down to within Nacho, Furry, and fitz, right?
NACHO, I WANT AN EXPLANATION FOR FITZ/FURRY TEAM TODAY, BEFORE ANY LYNCHING.
I really don't believe the above is the scumteam based on the lynchwagon.
So that leaves Nacho fitz and Nacho furry...
Yeah. Nacho is still my favorite lynch. You guys do notice that he has admitted himself he has had a distinct lack of town except for one post, that's not even that townish?
Interest in still lynching someone after Doctor claim is not scummy. There was period where scum would almost always fakeclaim doctor to the point where some people just lynched all doctor claims.

Anyway, this whole thing is rather simple for me. Nacho explain to me where he's getting fitz/furry from, or else Nacho's the best lynch. I'd prefer to tell me before you guys end the day.

To that end, I'm not saying I think fitz is town. On a spectrum from towniest to scummiest It probably be Acos = Fermi, Pana, Furry = Fitz, Nacho. And if he's lynched and flipped town the team's def Nach/Furry.

How did I get into you top three with Nacho and Furry? Based on Acosmist's fiction points which he provided you? Of which you admit above his main case against me (wanting a doc claimer lynched) is not scummy. Was it his telepathic abilities of knowing I've willfully misinterpreted Cojin and EF that tipped the scales? I'm not even close to being the best lynch.

And how is Furry in the top three? Has anyone put a decent case together on him?

Tick tock Pan and Furry....a Nacho lynch is still possible.