Mini 956: The Quayside (Game Over)

[iamausername]

A question for all; if you were scum, how would we tell?

A question just for McGriddle; as the only player who didn't join this game by invitation, how do you feel about the player list?

Vote: RedCoyote

Based on past experience, I'll end up doing this sooner or later, so I might as well get it out the way now.

[iamausername]

Incidentally, I'm not a fan of your question. Do you always have a tendency to try to assert that you're town in your opening post, or do you only have a habit of doing this when you're scum?

Neither.

Do you dislike the question in itself, or just the fact that I used the word 'we'?

[iamausername]

@iamausername:

Yeah, it was mostly the "we" stuff. It just reminded me of something similar that I've seen from you as scum before from way back in your very first game on here where you seemed to try to assert that you're town by asking everyone about their role preference and the like.

Yeah, I figured. But that game being my very first, over two years ago, means it probably isn't a very good point of reference for my current meta. I'd like to think I've improved at least a little since then.

I'm not nuking future games for iamausername's question.

So, what, you think your scum play is super impregnable to anyone else? That only

you

can unlock the secret of scumpops? Don't you think that's a little arrogant?

All Towntells Are Weak though

Not true, certainly not deserving of Authoritative Captial Letters. Identifying town players and lynching everyone else is every bit as valid a strategy a identifying scum players and lynching them.

---

Ecto's 82/83 constitute the most valid case I've seen thus far, so I'm happy with my vote where it is.

[iamausername]

Oh, hi Elmo, nice of you to show up 8 minutes after someone first asked for your opinion on something

This is ringing my scumdar.

I disagree with practically everything popsofctown said in his 102.

+1

Iam: Can you explain your previous experience with RedCoyote? Your first post hinted at a history of you voting for him and right now you are.

Yeah, I've played a couple of games with him before (Newbie #733 and Mini #739). Both started at pretty much the same time. Coyote was town in both, I was town in one and scum in the other, and in both games, I ended up pushing for his lynch D1. This comment is my enduring memory of RedCoyote, which is why I voted him this game:

I think you need to seriously consider whether your like/dislike of my writing and playstyle is affecting your judgment of me in general.

More specifically, the fact that he only made this appeal in the game where I was scum amused me.

Anyway, it's possible that the RedCoyote of the past has a point, and I think I need to do some looking into his meta, and remind myself of why it was I thought he was scum/a good target in those two games.

p.s. Mini #739 is also my only previous experience with pops, I think. He got run up on D1 for posting fluff in that game too.

I think the above is both utterly believable and very unlikely to come from scum.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

unvote, vote: popsofctown

Either begin producing more in the way of content, or I will seriously begin pushing your lynch hard. With two week deadlines, I don't think we have time to be fooling around.

I'd like to see much more coming from NabNab, Jahudo, iamausername, and Patrick too.

So you're happy with Elmo's contribution level?

[iamausername]

I think it would be fairly difficult to answer

as the only player who didn't join this game by invitation, how do you feel about the player list?

without playing an implied "I'm the only non-invited player in an invitational" card.

[iamausername]

Unvote, Vote: NabakovNabakov

I want to see how many votes it takes for him to start acknowledging them.

[iamausername]

Back from the exam from hell. I should be ok activity-wise for awhile hopefully. Trying to catch up now.

Oh, hi Elmo, nice of you to show up 8 minutes after someone first asked for your opinion on something

This is ringing my scumdar.

With respect to NabNab or with respect to Elmo?

NabNab.

Maybe making the 5th consecutive reasonless vote on this wagon seems like a dangerous play if this whole things goes belly up.

And while we're on that subject, this is too.

No, if I felt someone was being anti-town but couldn't definitively say that I thought his or her behavior was more likely to come from scum, I wouldn't be willing to support that person's lynch. You would?

Of course. I don't subscribe NabNab's point of view that Elmo is acting in "bad form" (I'd say he's probably just trying to be cute), but I'd definitely be willing to lynch someone on the first day who I thought was actively hurting the town's chances at victory, because that's the best time to do so.

Both sides of this argument seem to be failing to consider a pretty important factor in the equation. Namely, what is everyone else doing? Because for me, the question of whether I'd be willing to lynch someone I thought was anti-town but not particularly scummy would be pretty centrally dependant on whether I thought there were other players who

were

particularly scummy.

Why do I feel like you're making it up as you go along?

I suspect it may be because he's making it up as he goes along.

It seems like you haven't found anything worthwhile this game, and yet you've already got a few townies picked out. That's pretty impressive, so what's your secret?

Not directed at me, I know, but I'd say a good place to start is looking for the people who aren't saying things like this.

I interpret it as Nabakov stating that Elmo is questionable for only providing content when asked a question. Nabakov asks Elmo to provide content, making any response from Elmo seem more scummy because it will prove that Elmo only gives content when asked a question. That doesn't seem like the town way to prove a scumtell.

This is an excellent articulation of one of my biggest issues with NabNab's posting.

By giftwrapped case, he means a case that is easy to piggyback on, take ownership of, and push to lynch.

I feel like I have to take a pretty big step into scum mindset territory just to figure out the term though..

I dislike the implications of this.

The first part where he seems to imply that he didn't know what game it was all along just doesn't seem genuine to me. Considering the fact that my post was made at 5:18 my time and Jahudo's post was made less than 20 minutes after it, I just don't see how he could have

a)

found the game,

b)

analyzed it to see if he could figure out what McGriddle was talking about, and then

c)

change his opinion of him in such a short timeframe.

What exactly would be the purpose of this deception?

iamausername's posts are pretty thin; would like some more content from him.

Is there anything in particular you want me to comment on?

You gave a town read, with no reasoning. You only gave the post that caused it.

If you posted a scum read with no reasoning but a post number and voted on it, I would jump on you.

Can I not jump on you for starting a process of elimination that will also lead to a vote on some logically remaining scum later in the game, if it also lacks reasoning? I think I can, I think I can, I think I can.

You don't seem to be applying this very consistently in this game.

[iamausername]

username has provided the most thorough justification of his vote in 354.

I'm totally gonna post an actual thorough justification for my vote in 354 so it looks like NabNab is psychic.

Not directed at me, I know, but I'd say a good place to start is looking for the people who aren't saying things like this.

Cute. Assuming that, then why not verbalize it?

I don't understand the question. What is the "it" in this question referring to, if not the very thing that I am verbalising right there, in the post that you quoted?

Was your comment on McGriddle making it up as he goes along meant in a jokey way, or as an expression of suspicion?

Well, I'm somewhat serious about the fact that McGriddle seems to be making it up as he goes along, I just don't think it's particularly suspicious. What I'm seeing is a town McGriddle who earnestly believes that NabNab is scum, but is having a hard time figuring out exactly why, and since no one else is helping him out much on that front, he's just having to throw whatever he can think of out there.

I disagree with Goat on almost all of his methods, including constantly looking for a buddy of Nab before Nab's flip and the upcoming case, which will be done primarily to look like Goat has some substance rather than do anything convincing regarding Nab.

If a town player believes they have caught scum, and enough of the town agrees that that scum looks to be heading for the lynch, then what exactly are they supposed to while waiting for someone to get around to dropping the hammer?

I mean, yeah, Goat posting a more detailed case isn't going to convince people because they're already convinced. And yeah, Elmo's pretty activity charts are just posting for the sake of posting. So is my posting a stream of shallow one-liners in response to anything that happens to have my name in it.

So?

[iamausername]

Let's talk brass tacks. We need an alternative lynch. I think the wagon against you is little more than group of arbitrary names, most of them have had more to say about other people than they have their own vote (SC, Goat, Elmo), and none of them, from what I can tell, are actively engaging you. It's like they're talking to one another about you, rather than talking to you directly.

Regardless what anyone thinks about NabNab, we really should bring someone else under fire at this point. NabNab should not be allowed to coast into the noose, especially if he flips town. Who is a reasonable alternative? I've said Elmo or McGriddle, but I think I'd now be supportive of pops as well.

pops. pops is the reasonable alternative.

[iamausername]

I don't get Red, I'm finding him really confusing. I have the odd gut feeling where I don't like part of his posts, despite liking a lot of what he puts forward. It reminds me of Plum's posts in your last game, iamausername - don't know if you remember.

Huh, I'm getting pretty much the exact opposite. I disagree with a lot of what he's saying, but I'm getting a good gut feeling from him.

I've played a lot of games with iamausername and I'm just feeling him as town for the moment. He seems to be operating off his gut and speaking his mind without being hassled about essentially anything and I like that. I'm waiting for him to click into gear though, I suspect when he does that his alignment will be obvious to everyone, not just a gut read by me.

Shh! I'm trying to lull the scum into a false sense of security by coasting through the first day so they don't nightkill me and I can own them tomorrow.

pops. pops is the reasonable alternative.

You need to give more than this before the day ends. Seriously, I'll come up to bat for you against a player like Elmo, but you need to give the town more than this.

Oh alright. A little taster of the ownage I will be bringing tomorrow; here are some reasons why pops is a good alternative (Well, was. Post-claim, I don't think there is any reasonable alternative to hammering NabNab. Right away.)

Here is what pops has to say about Jahudo failing to respond to a single vote from Incog:

I'm gonna totally ignore people voting or attacking me, I'll just ride it out and hope others get more attention.

Here is what pops has to say about NabNab failing to respond to

five

votes, including mine which made a point of alerting everyone to the fact that NabNab was ignoring these votes:

This attack on Jahudo thus does not strike me as genuine.

Other things pops attacks Jahudo for:

- Giving scum reads without reasoning
- Giving town reads without reasoning
- Expressing conflicted feelings about the NabNab wagon

The first two points aren't totally inconsistent with pops' play up to now; he made the same rubbish attack on SerialClergyman earlier in the game, but still, if pops considers a lack of reasoning to be a major scum tell, it again seems odd that he's had very little to say about the NabNab wagon, which has been characterised by a distinct lack of stated reasoning.

Basically, the way pops has reacted, or rather

not

reacted, to the NabNab wagon seems to be totally at odds with the things he is attacking people for.

There's also this:

Without the colors, you might assume that all the way up to Incognito could be "town" or that all the way down to Elmo was "scummy". It offers far more

information

on individuals the way he did it. [emphasis pops's]

teehee. That's the I word. Not the A word.

Except the way McGriddle has been behaving it upsets me more, compared to Elmo.

pops trying to bring the Information Instead of Analysis tell to bear on McGriddle, not Elmo. a) It's another inconsistency in whether he considers something to be a tell or not, and b) it does not actually apply to McGriddle anyway. The point of the IIoA tell is that someone who is just giving a list of the game's events with no commentary, or something like that, is scummy. When the information in question is "who McGriddle thinks is scum/town", it's not Information Instead of Analysis, because that Information is, in fact, Analysis. Not very detailed Analysis, granted, but Analysis nonetheless.

---

Now somebody drop that hammer.

[iamausername]

Vote: pops

Also I have bad feelings about Incog, but I haven't yet figured out why. I'll let you know if I do.

Posting a response to all these attacks that were pages and pages ago is laughable and just reveals you've been avoiding suspicion and trying to let it die down, like I've suggested.

So wait, would continuing to ignore the attacks have proved that Jahudo

wasn't

avoiding suspicion and trying to let it die down or is this another one of those 'when did you stop beating your wife' things?

(That question may also be another one of those 'when did you stop beating your wife' things, yes.)

[iamausername]

I'm pretty comfortable with literally all but 4 people in the game

pops and Incog, obviously, then... McGriddle and Jahudo?

If Jahudo is one of them, I am telling you right now you should knock that number down to three. Jahudo has easy target written all over him.

If you were to make a list of low content posters in this game, you're going to put probably me and McGriddle at the bottom, maybe Elmo too, and then Jahudo on a level just above that. And yet Jahudo is the one taking the brunt of the lurker-hunting attacks. I'm not saying that "he's lurking" is the sum total of the case on him, but it's certainly a pretty major component of it. You'd think, if Jahudo was scum, that someone would be attempting to deflect some of that suspicion onto other low-content posters, and that just isn't happening here.

But yeah, take Jahudo out, and that looks like a pretty good list. My gut says Incog is scum. My head says the NabNab lynch didn't happen without any scum involvement at all, and McGriddle was definitely the shadiest hop onto that wagon. And both my head

and

my gut say pops is scum.

Prodding and probing further, giving his updated thoughts with respect to other players and his updated thoughts with respect to pops, continuing to scum hunt.

Prodding further like this, you mean?

Posting a response to all these attacks that were pages and pages ago is laughable and just reveals you've been avoiding suspicion and trying to let it die down, like I've suggested.

So wait, would continuing to ignore the attacks have proved that Jahudo

wasn't

avoiding suspicion and trying to let it die down or is this another one of those 'when did you stop beating your wife' things?

In case I'm being too oblique here; my point is that it is absurd that pops attacks Jahudo for ignoring Incog's attacks on him, then when he does try to address them, pops goes "Aha! So you admit you were ignoring them!" and doesn't say anything about Jahudo's actual responses. It shows that he didn't actually care about the points that Jahudo was ignoring, he just cared that the fact that Jahudo was ignoring them would allow him to play a trap card. This is super scummy.

He's also utterly failed to give any answer to anything in my case against him, his response was literally "read my posts again, they're good". There's not really much in that to probe. So, here is an update: pops is still scum.

[iamausername]

your attack was basically "I read your posts, they're bad".

No, that's my case on Incog.

[iamausername]

I have no prod to respond to, but I'm also gonna do that.

[iamausername]

If you think Jahudo's lurking is the major component of the case against him, then obviously you don't understand the case against Jahudo.

Well, it sure would be nice if someone could explain what I'm missing then. Because from this explanation:

Right now, I'm voting Jahudo because yes, I do think he's been a bit lurky so far, and I've just been getting a backgroundsy type of feel from his posting. I don't know how to elaborate it any better than that - he's been asking questions and stuff yes, but the impression that I've been getting is that he's just asking them for the sake of asking them; it just doesn't feel genuine to me. Also there was the issue I brought up about his turnaround on McGriddle which he did try and explain, but I still just can't shake my initial feeling about it.

it sure seems like lurking is a pretty significant component.

Even if we ignore that, if pops is town like I've been beginning to think he is, why would scum need to push suspicion onto other low-content posters when they could just hop onto the pops wagon just like everyone else seems to have done?

The point is not about what hypothetical Jahudo scumbuddies will be doing with their votes, it's about what they'll be trying to do with the votes of the town players who are voting their buddy.

I mean, I think pops is town, okay, people disagree. But moreso I'm really struggling to see any legit reasoning for why he's particularly suspicious.

Let me reiterate then. pops' behaviour around the NabNab wagon does not fit, at all, with the opinions he has stated elsewhere. He made a big deal about how Jahudo was super scummy for ignoring a single vote, but didn't seem to care about NabNab ignoring

five

. He has provided no explanation for this.

He also made a big deal about Jahudo (and SC) giving reads without explaining their reasoning. But he didn't seem to care about the fact that pretty much everyone on the NabNab wagon was not explaining their reasoning for being on it.

In fact, he didn't seem to care about the NabNab wagon at all. I don't see how a player can be hovering around the L-2 mark for a good portion of a day, and someone else can have no opinion on that fact whatsoever. Besides this bit fairly early on:

I also hate Nabanab as much as everyone else seems to, but it's been gut and I don't get the articulated reasons atm

(which, by the way, sure looks a lot like this:

I don't really like the Nabakov wagon, except for one point that I do like. Hopefully this makes me look good if the wagon pull through on its own, but gives me an excuse to vote if it needs help.

)

pops pretty much said nothing about NabNab all day, up until the first time I presented this case. Then he gave this explanation:

I don't know what anyone is attacking Nabakov for. I figured reasoning is there, but I'm too lazy to go look at it, or didn't get it first read through. I've said this before, I only feel that I owe a thread one readthrough when I commit to a game. If I saw a fallacious attack on Naba, I'd go to bat on it, but I didn't notice one. I can't complain that there aren't reasons for attacking him because I'm not sure there aren't any.

which, basically, I do not buy in the slightest. I can't see how a town player could be content to sit there and watch someone get lynched that they don't get the case on and say "oh well, I'm sure they have good reasons". That seems like it would require an untenable level of trust in an untenable number of people.

also, there's the part where pops attacks Jahudo for ignoring Incog's attacks on him, then when he does try to address them, pops goes "Aha! So you admit you were ignoring them!" and doesn't say anything about Jahudo's actual responses. It shows that he didn't actually care about the points that Jahudo was ignoring, he just cared that the fact that Jahudo was ignoring them would allow him to play a trap card.

Those are my major issues with pops, there are a few more minor points dotted about too, if you care to look.

it almost looks like he's just trying to intimidate people off of joining the Jah-wagon.

I love it when people imply I'm doing something in a subtle and devious way when in fact I am being incredibly brazen about doing that thing. And by "love", I mean "think it is scummy".

Yes, when I said "don't vote Jahudo, he is town" I was, in fact, trying to direct people away from the Jahudo wagon. How on earth did you unravel my unbreakable secret code?

Where are SerialClergyman and Iamusername? Riding out the day?

You know, no one ever answered this question when I asked it yesterday:

If a town player believes they have caught scum, and enough of the town agrees that that scum looks to be heading for the lynch, then what exactly are they supposed to while waiting for someone to get around to dropping the hammer?

I never said Jahudo was an "easy wagon" -- iamausername did.

Actually, I said "easy target". Not quite the same.

I think iamausername keeps his name invisible.

Yeah, I get accused of lurking enough as it is. If they saw how often I was actually on, I'd never hear the end of it.

What's worse is that the whole argument is that I'm scummy because I didn't want to lynch a townie.

strawman.jpg

Where's your day 2 mislynch? Unless you are accusing me of trying to wagon Patrick day 2, you can't use that argument. How the sam hill are you gonna appeal to your own town flip to defend yourself?

Isn't he more appealing to his own town flip to attack you than to defend himself?

Oh yeah, on "Elmo".
Yesterday I said he wasn't being him and voted.
Last night I decided he was probably playing the way he was because he is vanilla trying to draw a nightkill by being "mysterious"
Today, after that little Freudian slip that revealed you aren't actually Elmo, I don't know what to think, except I dislike dishonesty, even as a meta thing. It does explain my day 1 read on you however, and renders my night speculation baseless and useless when it was based upon Elmo being Elmo.

Requoted for those who missed that little gem:

My suspicion doesn't rest on Jahudo's post count, it rests on "I think he's scum". Him posting less than usual supports that. It turns out that I have a town read on Elmo and McGriddle and a scum read on Jahudo, so I am wanting to lynch him more than McGriddle / Elmo. derp derp derp.

Wait, you were actually serious about that? WTF? Even if someone else was using Elmo's account, how would that make any sense? What, did this mysterious other somehow forget that Elmo's posts were actually made by them?

This is obviously Elmo being facetious about how he's not going to want to lynch himself. There's not even a question about that. I don't know what is going on in your brain that you could possibly see anything else in it.

[iamausername]

Seriously, still? You think that someone else is posting from Elmo's account, and has been doing so for the entire game, and went back and read the game and thought "hey this Elmo guy seems pro-town", forgetting that the posts they are reading are posts that they typed themself? You honestly think that is the only plausible explanation for Elmo to say "I have a town read on Elmo"? Am I being punked?

[iamausername]

RedCoyote:
SerialClergyman:
Incognito:
Goatrevolt:
Jahudo:
popsofctown:
iamausername:
Elmo:
Ectomancer:
McGriddle:

Incognito included himself in this list. Is he also secretly somebody else posting under Incognito's account?

[iamausername]

In conclusion; WHAT?

[iamausername]

So, we've got, what, three days to deadline, with the pops wagon collapsing from his claim, and no one commited to anything else besides Jahudo? Yeah, there's no way I see this lynch not defaulting to Jahudo without a claim. So we'd best get that out of the way right now so we have at least a little bit of time to figure out who we're actually lynching.

We (that is, Jahudo and I) are masons. So yeah, that stuff about Jahudo being an 'easy target' was frankly absolute bollocks, and I knew it. If my role PM didn't explicitly tell me that he is, I probably wouldn't think Jahudo was town here, which makes it kind of difficult to defend him in a convincing way.

Unvote, Vote: McGriddle

for now, I guess. It is definitely high time I got around to figuring out if I have a case on Incog though. Gonna start working on that right now.

Also wondering if it is a good idea for pops to reveal his target ahead of time here. On the whole, I think it is, but I'm sure there are angles that I'm not thinking of here.

[iamausername]

Ecto + McGriddle, I find it very difficult to believe that their claims are fake, with how they've gone down. There is no way that McGriddle guessed Ecto was an odd night vig masquerading as a used one-shot vig to avoid the NK. It's slightly possible that Ecto is scum altering his claim to fit better with McGriddle's, but there was really no reason for him to claim when he did, as scum, and plenty of reasons not to, so I'm writing that possibility off too. Even if they don't get more shots, they're better than a single regular vig, because it's two semi-confirmable roles instead of one. Add masons and a rolecop on top of that, and I'm back to thinking pops is scum after all.

If pops is not scum, it leaves SC/Red/Incog/Elmo as the only possiblities, and I can't see a scumteam in there that makes sense. I don't see that the setup can support pops AND me+Jahudo telling the truth without overpowering the town. Furthermore, I think it's important to sort out which of us is town BEFORE we get to lylo. I think it could be disasterous if tomorrow comes and the three of us are all still around. Why are we assuming pops is town? Because Ecto claimed the only kill, so the scum kill must have been blocked? Isn't it perfectly plausible that scum targeted Patrick as well? I don't think anyone had trouble believing they did before Ecto claimed, after all.

If it must be SC or Red today, then I guess I'd pick SC, but I really don't think either of them are scum. I think it's pops + Goat + other (probably Incog).

Unvote, Vote: pops

I'll switch before deadline if I need to, but I really think we were on the right track when we were choosing between pops and Jahudo, and we should get back to that.

p.s. we can talk at night only, the table tennis was just a random bit of flavour, I don't know why Jahudo felt the need to mention it. Last night we made one post each in our QT giving a brief summary of our reads at the time. Jahudo was suspicious of pops, primarily, and also Goat, SC and Patrick. I was (and still am) really convinced that Red is town, not sure about anyone else, mostly suspicious of Incog, McGriddle and especially pops. Neither of us have been making much use of our ability to communicate in

public

, so it shouldn't come as any great surprise that we didn't do much with private communication either.

[iamausername]

It's the masons. McGriddle, please shoot the masons.

Why not lynch us today, if you're so sure? Is it because you don't want this to be settled before lylo, because you know when we flip town, it will be obvious that you are scum?

[iamausername]

If you think I'm scum, you have to think Ectomancer is scum and that mafia killed Patrick. And I just don't think that pairing works right now at all.

Ecto is a town vig who shot Patrick, scum also shot Patrick.

Jah, think about it. Can the setup be balanced with rolecop, two vigs, masons AND a weak doctor on town side?

[iamausername]

McGriddle. I think it would be pretty awesome if you shot a mason to test the claims. I wouldn't claim which mason you're going to shoot. Worst case, IF they are true, a big if, then we go down 1 mason and still have the other one alive tomorrow.

I agree, but you're just going to block him anyway.

I would love to lynch a mason today, but there isn't enough time.

~17 hours to deadline, it's at least worth a try. You lose nothing by making the attempt and switching back to SC if it fails, and you gain a whole lot if it succeeds, no?

[iamausername]

Why would IAUN keep up with some of his other responsibilities on-site but not be responsive to you with respect to this game?

Because games I'm modding take precedence over games I'm playing when I'm short on time. But more because they don't require me to think about things when I'm short on motivation, and because Goat just kept relentlessly piling on with more and more crap that I have no defence against at the end of yesterday and convinced me that we are going to lose this game because a) I played pretty crappy because I thought being a mason made me immune to lynching and b) the setup is totally stacked with power roles, and all that made me too depressed to want to think about this game overnight.

But then I remembered that the only times I've ever been lynched as town are the times when I stopped believing that I wouldn't be (I may have been listening to Journey at the time). So fuck that noise, I'm not going down without a fight.

I'm also very curious who Iam thinks is scum.

Yeah, me too.

OK. McGriddle and Ecto, I still think they're in the clear, I just don't see any motivation for Ecto to claim when he did as scum. And as I said before, there's no way McGriddle guessed that Ecto was an odd-night vig masquerading as a one-shot vig. McGriddle is definitely not scum unless Ecto is too, and see above re: Ecto is not scum.

Goat also appears to be cleared by pops N1, which leaves it at Incog/Elmo/Red. Looking at the way yesterday's lynch shifted from Red to SC, that actually makes some sense, and Incog and Elmo have been pretty buddy-buddy throughout.

But, McGriddle has confirmed the presence of a scum roleblocker, so pops may have been right in this post. And since we know Incog, for one, picked up on pops' breadcrumbing, it would make sense for him to be blocked N1 is Incog is scum, so I'm not going to write Goat off as town. And he was also a strong component of the shift from Red to SC yesterday.

So yeah, I'm thinking Incog/Red/Goat or maybe Incog/Red/Elmo.

---

No Lynch may also be worth considering today.

[iamausername]

Actually... we need to be careful not to leave too many dead tonight. If we mislynch today. If Pops dies from his role, a vig shot and a scum NK, that's 4 dead players. If none of those hit scum we're screwed.

Pops, I think you should protect me. We need to keep as many confirmed players alive as we can. I don't think we have the opportunity to risk you targeting an unknown and dying at this stage of the game.

I think McGriddle should shoot a mason. Not sure that's going to go over well, but I really think a mason HAS to be scum. I don't see how it works any other way.

This is interesting. If Goat is scum, then he is trying to set up exactly the situation he warns against here. And, in fact, managed it, but perhaps couldn't be sure that McGriddle was going to shoot a mason? I don't know, even though McGriddle never confirmed either way, I think it was still pretty clear that was what he was going to do. Certainly I think it would be worth the risk for scumGoat to leave McGriddle unblocked last night to make this happen.

So I guess it's Incog/Red/Elmo. Unless Ecto and McGriddle are pulling off an awesome gambit here.

[iamausername]

Actually... we need to be careful not to leave too many dead tonight. If we mislynch today. If Pops dies from his role, a vig shot and a scum NK, that's 4 dead players. If none of those hit scum we're screwed.

This is also why the setup is not unbalanced. Swingy, but not unbalanced.

[iamausername]

You've surely had people suspect you when you're town before and I'm sure it didn't cause you to completely give up on the game.

I haven't had people suspect me as town

for reasons I can't argue against

. I can't argue with "you've been laying low" and "the setup is stacked with power roles" because

both of these things are true

. This is also the answer to "why would too many power roles make you depressed", fyi. Because it makes me look like a liar.

No lynch would be the dumbest idea of all time. No lynch just means a town player who is unlikely to ever get lynched gets killed and instead of needing 4 out of 5 town players on board to guarantee a scum lynch, you would need 4 out of 4.

I think you need to check again how many votes are required to lynch today.

No lynch would pretty much mean "Goat dies and we're in the same position tomorrow."

Sure, but only because I just proved you're town.

But anyway, that surplus player gives an opportunity for one of the vigs to kill me or Jahudo without it being insta-lose, so No Lynch totally is a bad idea.

[iamausername]

So here's that case on Incognito I promised like ten years ago. Also some point against Incog that I did not have at the time, but are no less salient.

Post #39 - super waffling with regards to Goat. "I don't like it but I don't think it's malicious", what exactly is the purpose of pointing that out? And the further explanation in #84 doesn't make it any better, it really looks like a case of trying to have it both ways. He's making very sure that he doesn't actually accuse Goat of anything, but he's laying the groundwork to accuse him further down the line if it becomes convenient.

Post Post #225 - His accusing Jahudo of lying here really doesn't track right - it's clearly not a lie that would benefit scum in any way, and I think a town Incog who was actually trying to figure out Jahudo's alignment, and not just trying to find things he could use against him, would realise that.

Post #268 - The last sentence in this post, why is it there? Surely we all know that it goes without saying that D1 reads are not set in stone, so why is Incog being so careful to point this out? I think if we refer back to his answer to my "how would we know if you were scum" question at the start of the game, there is our explanation:

When I'm scum, I think I'm less likely to try to 'clear' people as town.

Post #269 - Incog's super case on Jahudo. "He's a bit lurky and backgroundy", that's it. Oh, and "I accused him of lying earlier, he explained how it obviously wasn't lying, but I'm going to keep on using it as a point against him anyway". This is the case that it was majorly suspicious of Jahudo not to prostrate himself in front of and declare himself scum. This is the case that I did not understand when I said that lurking was a major component of it.

Post #319 - Wording here: "It doesn't seem likely that a wagon will switch to Jahudo before deadline, and I've mentioned that I agree with the wagon on NabNab anyway." Not "I agree with the wagon", but "

I've mentioned

that I agree". Again, showing that he's overly concerned about appearing consistent in a way that a town player wouldn't be.

Post #395 - No matter how well they know that commenting on the NK in this way is a blatant scum tell, time and time again, scum still just can't help themselves.

Post #449 - What the hell is wrong with SC using a case made on D1 as a major reason for voting pops on D2? Why would that case suddenly become invalid overnight?

Post #495 - "it almost looks like he's just trying to intimidate people off of joining the Jah-wagon." - it doesn't

almost look like

anything; I was very blatantly trying to intimidate people off of joining the Jahudo wagon. He is implying that I was subtly manipulating people away from Jahudo when I was in fact outright telling them "don't vote Jahudo". This is a complete warping of reality with the intention of painting me as some kind of shady criminal mastermind.

Post #530 - Much like the "Jahudo lied about not knowing what game McGriddle was talking about" bit, we again have Incog saying "here is a point against Jahudo, it is not a valid point, but I'm going to use it anyway".

Post #605 - "I can't see that as a facetious comment, no. I can't even see why I should interpret that as being a facetious comment when it followed his start-of-Day comments that said he had bad vibes about me. There's a vast difference between "which finger is the major one" and "Incog's posts are bad".

iamausername, were you joking around when you made that comment?"

Let's scroll back a bit. I say pops' defence against my case is "my posts are good", he says that's because my case is "your posts are bad", I say "no, that's my case against Incog."

Yes, this facetious comment at the end of a series of facetious comments is a facetious comment on how I had yet to actually present a case against Incog. It is, in fact, blindingly obviously a facetious comment. I can maybe see how you could possibly miss that initially, but I can't see how you would miss that

even after SC points out that it is a facetious comment

.

Post #726 - "It seems all too convenient to me that the two people who were scummiest to me decide to confirm each other as this pro-town mason team." This is some bullshit right here. If we were both at the top of Incog's scumlist completely independently, this would make sense, but the only reason I was there in the first place is because I defended the shit out of Jahudo for bad reasons. It's not "convenient", so much as it is "a logical explanation for the play that made these two the scummiest in the first place".

"Actually, with the way

SC

kept defending iamausername, I was kinda beginning to think that if by some miracle the two of them were town, that iamausername and

SC

were likely masons. So yeah, the mason claim from Jah/IAUN was completely unexpected."

In addition to attacking me primarily for defending the shit out of Jahudo, Incog has also repeatedly brought up the fact that Jahudo claimed to have "a solid town read" on me as a point against him, because he could not see a reason for that read. I cannot see how Incog can honestly have considered the possibility that I was a mason with SC, but be taken completely by surprise by my actual partner. That does not stack up in the slightest. This is all done in service of pushing the "convenient" line to throw doubt on our claim, and it is

bull

.

Post #731 - His vote on SC, based on the fact that SC doesn't consider the possibility that Ecto is mafia. SC explains this in this post, and Incog... completely ignores this explanation and leaves his vote on SC for the rest of the day. Really?

[iamausername]

I think goat is town and I know I am town so the fact you didn't get quicklynched tells me you are town aligned

WTF logic is this? Surely it means the exact opposite? Scum aren't going to quicklynch themselves, are they?

[iamausername]

ffffffffffffffffffffffffff