Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Sando]

Vote: ABR

How does one do that smiley?

[Sando]

Seraphim, I've seen people playing like that before. They don't usually try to group policy lynch, they usually just tunnel hardcore and find scumtells where there aren't any. It's actually rather annoying when it happens.

Anyone doing this is pretty retarded.

Why are people in this game seemingly obsessed with staying in the RVS, every time we start getting vagueling non-random conversation we apparently need more ant-eaters.

Farside, lol @ thinking ABR will answer questions, that's a good one

[Sando]

Pfft, Anon, your 'reread' consists of 1 wagon and 3 players... Oh, and after you've finished attacking people for going after an 'easy' target you join the wagon on Farside that was created for no reason, oh and is now equal with Richards. Pot, please meet Kettle he'll be joining us today.

Unvote, Vote: Richard

This clearly needs to be done, he over-reacts to 1 vote, then over-reacts to 3, which is only barely more than 25% needed to lynch. When you get a bad response, you push it.

Also, Anon, Richard has specifically stated that he's not angry, or not 'throwing a hissy fit'. Since he's not claiming angry town, why are you doing it for him?

[Sando]

Anon, if over-reacting and panicking to a vote(s) isn't scummy, what is a scummy reaction to votes?

[Sando]

So it could be a scumtell, but pushing it and trying to get more information is a bad thing?

[Sando]

So it could be a scumtell, but pushing it and trying to get more information is a bad thing?

Not necessarily.

The point is that this "omg scumtell, lynch lynch" is a safe place for scumbags to hide, specially if the target is town, as I suspect.

We've put him to what, L-5, L-6, where have the massive calls for lynching been? If I see a scumtell, why wouldn't I vote it?

[Sando]

All alignments commit scumtells, the point is that you have to analyse first if its a very reliable scumtell, and second if there are other tells to fight or help the read. That is scumhunting.

@Sando: Im precisely trying to explain why what Richard did wasn't a scumtell and why do I think he is town

That's not what I got from your previous answer, you seemed to be saying that it was scumtell committed by town. Which is it?

[Sando]

I think its pretty clear that you think overreaction is a scumtell while I dont think it is.

So I'll ask again, is there any response to a vote(s) that you think is a scumtell?

[Sando]

Look, farside, Im asking questions and pushing you to get reactions from you. Does that mean Im town? Should I think you are town for doing the same thing?

Why are you voting him?

[Sando]

BV ratchets up the scum-list, I think scum are often the first to accuse of role-fishing, because it's such an easy accusation to make and town are so firmly against it that the mud invariably sticks.

The waffling all over the place on Richard is pretty bad, but what's the motivation/mistake behind it? Is it scum waffling on a townie? Is it scum trying to fence-sit scum? I don't see the motivation for scum to do this.

Richard has gone to ground since I've voted him and refused to accept his defence, preferring to leave it to Anon to do his arguing for him. He's done literally no scumhunting this game, every post has been a whiny defence. There is literally nothing town about him, and certainly no reason for me to remove my vote.

BV gets onto my 'would lynch' list, but continued voting of Richard is clearly needed.

[Sando]

Seraphim/Farside, the flip-flopping, ok. But the vote under pressure being a scumtell? Why do I get the feeling that if there wasn't a vote that he'd be backing off the wagon and again, be accused of flip-flopping, another scumtell. This latest accusation seems like a catch-22.

Espeonage jumping on the popular wagon strikes me as opportunistic.

Richard seems to have gone from whiny, to angry, to angry with a bit of a plan, to a gambiting master... At least in his own mind.

[Sando]

Espeonage, you're the 4th on BV I believe.

Richard:

You get voted, over-react
You get voted again, over-react again.
You get voted yet again, you get angry, go into hiding
You get called out for hiding, you come out and claim it was a gambit

I didn't attack the fact that you provided content, but what the content was.

And no, you're still not scumhunting.

[Sando]

That's my meta.

It's also a pretty standard scum-reaction.

But good to know you've done 1 sentence of scumhunting in 14-odd pages, all is forgiven...

[Sando]

Poms point about BV treating Espeonage as town is a good one though.

Farside, I'm not saying that scum don't do that (so do town btw), I'm just concerned that Espeonage worked him into a catch-22, where if he voted, it was only because of pressure, if he didn't, it was more flip-flopping.

Sera's last post makes me think attempting a derail, attacks Richard, get's on the BW but quickly has someone else they'd like to vote, but still wants to pressure Richard. Eventually jumps off the Richard wagon, despite Richard continuing to do what Sera thought needed pressure, then once off the wagon criticises people joining a 'VI wagon'.

[Sando]

I just feel like Richard is exhibiting VI behavior. Also, my feelings towards the wagon are influenced by the fact that my major suspect(bv) in on there along with a few other players I have questionable reads on.

It's the lead up to this, not the statement. As I stated, it looks like a crafted derail. Join the wagon as a supporter, and get off it as momentum builds to derail it. Statements like 'I'd like to jump onto BV but pressure needs to be put on Richard', then leaving the wagon without actually getting a sufficient response.

It looks like you were waiting for an opportune moment to move off the wagon to try and derail it.

[Sando]

So, uh, Anon, you don't think Over-reaction is a tell?

From SWN II http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=250

explain why you dont think he is scummy after:
- Overreacting to 5 votes. Really?

and

Scumbags are more likely to overreact to a nonexistent pressure because they are paranoid of being supected/lynched. So yeah, its a scumtell.

First is post 253, second is 337.

Had a change of heart on over-reaction as a scumtell I see...

[Sando]

Picking up prod, my apologies, much busier than expected weekend, content in a few hours, promise. And yay, Ojanen is here!

[Sando]

Ojanen - Falling clearly into town-meta, good points on Esp, not happy to simply go along with the rest of town.

Papa Zito - You call Pom scum, then point to BVs scumslip, which Pom was the first person vocalise in thread afaik.

CKD - Yep, over-reacting like that (richard) is scummy. Over-reaction combined with literally no scumhunting, yep, that's scummy. People making generalised statements about someone being town with little to no evidence to back it up, then following that with vague threats, yep, that's scummy. Do you think that constantly defending yourself and never actually scumhunting is pro-town?

Anon - A list without reasoning is pretty useless. Also, noone ever claims that a scumtell is 100% accurate, you've gone from 'this is a huge scumtell' to 'this is not a scumtell at all' in the space of one game, I'm still not buying this.

CKDs questioning of Anon, I don't really see the contradiction between saying that 'pushing for a reaction' is a good scum-ploy, and Anon saying that he was pushing for a reaction. It's a good scum-ploy because it is good town play. Anon's response seems quite conciliatory on this point, not what I would expect.

Dybecks claim that the BV case is wishy-washy etc is classic attempt at derailing. No reasoning is provided, it's all generalisations and no content, and all seemingly aimed at simply throwing a spanner in the wagon. Followed by the wishy-washy responses to questioning and the desperate leap onto the Esp wagon. I'm not sure how Dybeck got away without that being raised really...

[Sando]

Unvote, Vote: Dybeck

The wishy-washiness previously alluded too looked at the time to be a pretty clear attempt to derail BV wagon.

Is worried that scum won't do anything controversial, and that people standing out will get lynched.

States that while not thinking BV is scummy, scum are probably not bussing him and are on Richard:

Unlikely, but this game's going nowhere until the majority of this town has heard enough from bv to make an informed decision one way or another.

The reasoning behind my question is that it just seems too early for scum to be bussing one of their own. There's an incredibly juicy alternate wagon on Richard that they could be plugging, whilst still flying under the radar.

Dybeck seems to be implying that BV isn't scummy, so the people on there could be scum, but that if BV is scummy, that the scum wouldn't be on the wagon.

Dybeck seems to be consistently trying to undermine the wagons without actually providing an opinion on the wagonned people. I'm not sure exactly why, but one thing I can't fathom is why town would do this.

The vote and reversal on ABR is odd, but the jump onto Espeonage seems like simply an excuse to set up a third wagon. The general wishy-washiness regarding whether or not he'll join one of the wagons is typical fence-sitting, offering no real opinion on the scumminess of either wagon.

[Sando]

Anyone else you'd like to fence-sit on Sera? That's 3 this page already...

[Sando]

Very sorry guys, Easter has been much busier than I expected, I'll have more tonight or early tomorrow, promise.

[Sando]

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. Enough people are basically saying that Richard is an obvious scum-BW and trying to derail the wagon based on this, that if we follow the logic, if we lynch Richard now and find out his alignment 100%, then we basically have the game in the bag. Why do I doubt any of those are willing to actually put their money where their mouth is?

Boberz looks pro-town to me, the case seems pretty weak. Interesting that people will jump on people like Boberz and BV for floundering and not scumhunting, yet completely clear Richard of it.

Anon's latest post screams scum to me. 'We need to set up an opposing wagon to Richard, and oh look, here's a convenient one in BV, and oh, I also find him the most scummy'. Yeah...

Still not liking Sera's interaction with the BV and Richard wagons.

Would lynch: Richard/BV/Sera/Anon/Dybeck, no particular order.

[Sando]

I don't like to pick an order though At least not on D1. It kinda defeats the purpose in my mind of how to operate on D1, but meh, here goes.

Richard - Probably top of the list, he's not only by far the scummiest person around, he's totally anti-town seperate to that, and lynching him will give us huge amounts of information.

BV/Sera - Pretty similar level, but for different reasons. I've stated previously why I'd lynch these guys.

Anon - It's a general vibe, and I'd be more likely to allow it because he's vocal and I think my read will continue to improve. It's also pretty recent, and I like to make long and drawn out conclusions

Dybeck - In case this wasn't obvious, Dybeck was basically me just calling him out on some fairly bad arguments. I still think they were bad, but he's been a lot better since.

[Sando]

That is my order... I don't always vote for the person I find scummiest at any given time. 2 of my top 5 have me or noone else on it, should I really not try and apply pressure outside of the popular wagons?

[Sando]

Oh, I was getting my games mixed up, I thought we had a week or so.

Well if we're getting right down to it, Richard is the obvious one to go

Unvote, Vote: Richard.

[Sando]

Enough people have stated that Richard is VI and obviously being scum-driven that 1 of 2 situations appear to have come up:

1: Richard is VI, and it's strongly scum driven
2: Richard is scum, and scum are trying to derail the wagon with un-quantifiable statements like 'Richard is obviously VI'.

There has been little/no evidence for Richard being VI, yet people are deliberately trying to derail the wagon with this incredibly weak evidence. It's a classic case of derailing a wagon without really posting content and possibly get drawn into defending a partner.

By putting your money where your mouth is (is this another aussie-ism that I'm not aware of?), I mean that if you actually believe that Richard is VI and are prepared to actually defend him, either go for those on the wagon, or lynch him to prove your point and then kill those on the wagon. Don't just blindly throw out accusations that require no thought and no responsibility, it's freaking annoying.

It's all talk, no action. And I get angry at people making blanket statements that they have no intention of backing up or taking responsibility for.

We have ~48 hours till deadline? Can't guarantee I'll be around for it.

Unvote, Vote: BV

[Sando]

I just finished a game with Richard as a replacement, the meta is simply wrong imo. Also, I just mislynched, and in ABR's opinion basically lost the game, based on meta on someone I trusted it on to a near certainty. I don't put a lot of faith in it, and it's weak.

Also,

Also you think players not voting for someone they read as VI should be done to clear up the matter?

English please?

Because the Richard wagon isn't happening, I believe we need an 11 person majority no matter what (ie top wagon isn't lynch at deadline), I can't guarantee my availability at deadline, and I've consistently rated BV as my 2nd or 3rd suspect that I'd be willing to lynch.

How many more reasons do you not want to work out for yourself?

[Sando]

Seems to be.

Setting up tomorrow's kill on a scum-flip, while being silly imo, isn't scummy.

Setting up tomorrow's kill on a town-flip, is both silly and scummy.

This will almost definitely be my last post in here before deadline, horribly sick right now

[Sando]

My apologies people, my birthday yesterday and don't have a lot of time today either. Will have more tomorrow.

The Pom wagon, ABR is basically saying that pretty much all of Poms votes have been bussing, and is happy to accept that all voting on Pom is either town or bussing. This seems pretty normal play for ABR, but pretty bad reasoning still.

Espeonage, the joining onto Pom is incredibly opportunistic, and there's definitely scum on the wagon, either bussing or looking for an easy town lynch. Esp's is the worst of the lot by far.

Vote: Esp

Not sure why Sera is worried about a surprise hammer when putting someone to L-5.

Javert's attack on Sera looks way to high-and-mighty, looks like trying to appear pro-town with it. It didn't need such an in-depth rebuttal to his statement, looks try-hard.

[Sando]

I am a hider. I have weak mode, which is normal hider, and strong mode, in which kills directed it me do not affect me. I hid with farside22 last night on strong mods, for fear of vig.

I was under the impression that a 'normal' hider (your weak mode) is not affected by kills directed at them anyway? Isn't that the whole point of a hider? So what's the point of your claimed strong mode?

[Sando]

Not particularly impressed with the case or the wagon. The claim of hider I really don't like though. As I just said, I think Pom has pretty much mistakenly claimed that her weak and strong are the same power, and by mistakenly I think scum-slip rather than town-slip. Also, hider conveniently would explain a lack of death post-claim.

Basically, I think the claim is particularly scummy. But I'm not sure that I'm not completely misreading hiders, is my analysis of the claim correct/incorrect?

[Sando]

Agree with Ojanen, your wiki does not match what you seem to say hider is. And Pom never mentions anything about being able to save the other person.

[Sando]

Still get a lot of BS vibes from the claim, but don't really see a downside in leaving Pom alive and testing for a few nights. Worst comes to worst, if we still don't trust the claim in a few days, we can lynch. If scum, we really haven't lost much, if she's telling the truth, we've at least got some confirmed townies.

[Sando]

So Sera, you think that if Pom were town, leaving her alive and using her ability basically in a best-case scenario for that role is anti-town?

[Sando]

You seriously can't see what's wrong with Sera's reasoning and apparent conclusion?

[Sando]

Dybeck, how many times do you want to misinterpret this?

In your 'worst case' scenario, of Pom hiding behind a town and scum getting a double kill, we end up in exactly the same position as if we lynch Pom now and scum NK that person, yet we 'gain' todays lynch of Pom back. Also, for scum to do that, we're basically directing their kill for tonight.

So in your worst case scenario where scum NK 2 townies, we in fact get back the lynching today of a townie... If you implicitly believe the claim, then yeah, it might be sub-optimal play, but do really 100% believe the claim?

CKD, what exactly are you voting me for? I expect random votes from ABR, but you posted a whole lot against others, basically call Pom, Faraday and Farside scummy for the whole claim things, then only mention me to vote me.

[Sando]

Need to catch up, I find it funny that Sando seems to have no clue why I am voting him…I haven’t posted that much in the game…is it that hard to figure out?

I just did an ISO of you, and using the 'ctrl-f' function, you literally haven't used my name today until you voted me.

[Sando]

Need to catch up, I find it funny that Sando seems to have no clue why I am voting him…I haven’t posted that much in the game…is it that hard to figure out?

I just did an ISO of you, and using the 'ctrl-f' function, you literally haven't used my name today until you voted me.

Im not entirely sure what the case against you is. However I am interested in what your point is here?

That I have NFI what his case against me is...

[Sando]

Need to catch up, I find it funny that Sando seems to have no clue why I am voting him…I haven’t posted that much in the game…is it that hard to figure out?

I just did an ISO of you, and using the 'ctrl-f' function, you literally haven't used my name today until you voted me.

then I dont think you really iso-ed me then...just because I didnt type your name out doesnt mean I didnt quote something you said and then say "I liked you before this statement"....

at any rate, lets go down that bullshit hole...lets say I didnt say ANYTHING about your before voting you......

...so? What is your point? I cant find you scummy whenever I want? I have to build up to it?

If you read my post when I voted you, you should know why I am voting you...I dont think you are really reading the game (ie following closely to scum hunt).....on top of that, I dont like some of the crap your pushing (overreacting is scummy)..

You are kidding me right? So you don't believe me? Then provide a post where you actually said anything about me today before your vote?

And here's how it went:
CKD votes for no reason
Sando asks why
CKD says Sando should know why
Sando says CKD has never stated why, ever
CKD says that's immaterial, Sando should read his mind over the interweb

Here's your post where you voted me:

K, rechecked my Role PM.

Weak Mode:
-I die if the person I hide with is targeted with a kill.
-I die if I hide with scum. This therefore confirms farside, because I hid with her last night.
-I die if I'm targeted with a kill.

There seems to be absolutely no point to this role besides "confirming" town which is strangely convenient.

Not to mention Hider is a favorite scum fakeclaim.

Can someone lynch this lying scum?

I agree somewhat...but if she is telling the truth, a.) she will be offed..b.) it will provide a ton of information.

That being said, the “hider” part of that role doesn’t make any since in weak mode….

She could hide behind one of 4 people we think are scummy. She dies and they don't boom we have instant scum.
That's if you believe her claim. I'm sitting on the fence on it. She never responded to my post with my reason's either which bothers me as well.

farside, can you tell me why this isnt a good idea? Using a claim hider to test for scum.

What if she was to go into strong mode - and we have her hide behind someone. Under the assumption she's not scum the scum can't kill her as her role could be re-directed to one of them. Rit? That's assuming I understand her role correct.

you are assuming a lot here....

Why did you "hide" behind me? So the only down fall if you are weak is if your targeted you will die?

I hid behind you because I had a town read on you, and I didn't want to hide with scum.

did you crumb this in any way?

I am fine with getting more information....scum wont want to let a hider who can confirm townies alive very long. I am not for her telling us who she hides behind before she does it..most likely pom, this is just an extension on a lynch....for you to contirubte to the game. I am fine with postponing your lynch for a few days to let you prove your worth and maybe actually get some decent info. But your information is useless until we know your alignment.

Also,

Unvote, vote Sando.

Sando, did you kill our vig?

So you refer to Sera talking about Pom
Ask Farside why it's a bad idea to use the hider
Tell Farside that she's assuming a lot
Ask Pom if she crumbed
Provide some reasoning on using the hider
Vote me
Ask if I killed the vig

So the only 'reasoning' I can see is a question over whether I killed the Vig.

You're so full of BS it's not even funny.

[Sando]

My scumlist:

Pomegranate
Espeonage
Seraphim
bobberz
Richard

interesting, I agree with this list from ABR...I agree with Pom, Esp, and Bob on this list...I think Sera is town. Richard, is just the VI..catching up, then I will probably be voting Pom.

oh and add Jahudo.

and Nick

So I wasn't even in your top 7? Nice one CKD... Yet I should 'know' the case on you...

[Sando]

Wait, top 5, my bad, point still stands.

[Sando]

Glad you could finally actually point out where you found me scummy. That wasn't so hard, was it.

So I killed a vig to stop him killing me? Yeah that achieves a lot if I were scum, the kill totally wouldn't go through anyway... The entire premise of your argument is faulty.

So thinking over-reacting is scummy, is scummy. Yeah righto. I told you at the time I thought you were wrong, still do. I'm not going to answer it again, we simply disagree, if you think my scumhunting is scummy in this regard, nothing I can do about it.

[Sando]

What made you change from <100 posts ago where I wasn't one of your top 5 suspects btw?

[Sando]

@Sando: are there instances when over-reaction is not scummy?

Yes, but they're pretty rare. It doesn't always come from scum, but I pretty much always give the person scum-points for it. Combine it with abject refusal to scum-hunt, yes I think that person is very scummy. But no scum-tell always comes from scum.

[Sando]

Why would you hide behind someone you think is obviously pro-town? You're apparently completely unafraid of a scum kill?

[Sando]

I basically don't believe the claim anymore, but I don't really see the danger in leaving her alive.

Will reread and vote Pom tomorrow if I can see peoples arguments as to the danger to town. Stupidly busy atm, promise I'll be around tomorrow.

[Sando]

Ok, nope, having reread, I'm still failing to see a real danger to town from leaving Pom alive. I think ABR's 'scenario' is pretty highly unlikely, and I haven't really seen anyone else pose a downside. Sera's reasoning is equally faulty, in that the danger he proposes (using strong ability hurts town) presumably only happens if Pom is town, therefore using her ability correctly is pro-town, and leaving a scum alive doesn't hurt town in that regards.

I don't think scum would seriously have the balls to push a lynch like this on a claimed role D2 to be honest. I think they're wrong, but I'm starting to think pro-town for the early people pushing for the lynch on the role.

[Sando]

Why would you hide behind someone you think is obviously pro-town? You're apparently completely unafraid of a scum kill?

really? This is a silly question....what I think you want to ask (if you are really trying to scum hunt) is why hide to begin with? I think she answered it before, something along the lines of "I was afraid of a vig kill"..the better question yet is Pom, why were you afraid of a vig kill? Do you deem your Day 1 play scummy? Why or why not?

Are you really this silly? A townie hider has to fear 2 things, being scumkilled and being vigged, and has to consider that anyone they hide behind will be scum-killed or vig-killed. I'm asking why Pom would be worried about a vig kill and hide behind someone she didn't think likely to get vigged, yet not worry about that person getting scum-killed.

I think it was a slip from Pom, and made me believe the claim even less. I think it's scum-thinking in terms of who they would hide behind.

Unvote, Vote: Pom

The claim seems to be basically utter BS. Nothing about it convinces me, quite the opposite in fact. I don't see the harm in leaving her alive, but no real scum-hunting seems likely while she is alive, so I guess that it's pretty pointless to leave her alive.

[Sando]

Sando(and ABR to some extent)...just curious...am I scum?

if you lynch Pom and she flips town...am I (more likely) scum?

if you lynch Pom and he flips scum....am I (more likely) scum?

Nope, I've stated the people I think are getting townie points in all of this, and it's not due to what Pom would or wouldn't flip. I would have expected scum to move away from the wagon with the claim, possibly coming back when it became clear that the wagon was going ahead.

You do realise that I agree with 90% of what you're saying about Pom right? I simply assume that since you so enjoyed accusing me of not reading the thread that you at least knew my position on this.

[Sando]

noted both sando and ABR scoot around the question....

You do realise that I agree with 90% of what you're saying about Pom right? I simply assume that since you so enjoyed accusing me of not reading the thread that you at least knew my position on this.

big difference, you are voting her.

just curious who else you think is scum, and why lynching Pom today over anyone else you think is scum is so important.

what if you could lynch me today...would you do that instead?

I would now you misrepping scum. Accusing me of dodging the question?! You asked if I'd find you more scummy based on Pom's flip either way, and whether the exchange to that point made you scummier in my eyes, and I quite clearly said 'Nope' and then explained why. Claiming that I dodged the question is a complete lie.

Yes, I'm voting her, and have stated why. Espeonage is scummy, I was pushing that wagon, it never got going. I went after Dybeck, that never got going. Are you actually reading the game?

[Sando]

finally I wanted to know WHY you felt Pom had to die today over whoever else you felt was scummy...you didnt answer that question either, until the above post...so who really is misrepping who?

Why must you persist with the lies? Here's my post where I voted Pom and my latest vote:

Are you really this silly? A townie hider has to fear 2 things, being scumkilled and being vigged, and has to consider that anyone they hide behind will be scum-killed or vig-killed. I'm asking why Pom would be worried about a vig kill and hide behind someone she didn't think likely to get vigged, yet not worry about that person getting scum-killed.

I think it was a slip from Pom, and made me believe the claim even less. I think it's scum-thinking in terms of who they would hide behind.

Unvote, Vote: Pom

The claim seems to be basically utter BS. Nothing about it convinces me, quite the opposite in fact. I don't see the harm in leaving her alive, but no real scum-hunting seems likely while she is alive, so I guess that it's pretty pointless to leave her alive.

Seems pretty freaking obvious why I'm voting her.

[Sando]

ABR, seriously? You quoted why I voted Pom, no other lynch was possible, mainly due to the insistence of people like you that the lynch go ahead. It's pretty much impossible to look at other people when people refuse to do anything but lynch 1 person. I never believed the claim, but thought it was in towns best interest to leave her alive. When no other lynch was possible and it was clear that no scumhunting was going to be done with Pom alive, that benefit to town was eroded until I thought it in the best interest of town to get the lynch done with then. I also made it pretty clear that Pom would have to die at some point, I merely brought that forward.

You can claim that prolonging days is universally bad, but you know that it's not true. You also know that having a day focussed purely on 1 person is also bad, yet you did that yesterday quite happily.

Farside, Ojanen when engaged in the game has a fairly different scum game than town game by D2/D3. Bussing/distancing from a partner is something that Ojanen is extremely good at though, I would dread ever trying to link Ojanen to a partner, she attacks extremely convincingly and is perfectly willing to bus. I feel pretty confident in calling Ojanen town at this point though. And yes, this comes from meta, I know her scum-play better than most having played in a hydra with her She's also played in a fair few games with a good friend of mine who's games I tend to read.

Really? You campaigned tirelessly for the death of a power-role "because it would give us information", actively supressing discussion on any other topic, and this is the best you got from it?

to:

OK let's see where this one goes.

unvote, vote: Sando

So Dybeck, you initially thought it was a pretty weak case, and despite noone actually adding anything to ABRs case, you've changed your mind and want to see 'where it goes'? Righto.

Sigh

Unvote; Vote: Sando

IoA and wishy-washy voting seal the deal.

I honestly can't believe we're getting into an end-game with play like this. Blatant opportunistic BWing on someone who's attacked them fairly consistently, and consistently falling back on being a 'bad player' to defend any scummy actions.

I think my read on CKD was wrong yesterday and merely motivated by anger. I think Nick's attack on ABR is pretty opportunistically attacking the person who pushed a townie lynch. Seems like it's simply an easy attack to make on someone because they made a bad call and got a townie lynch, rather than actually motivated by scumhunting.

The first quote in point 6 from Sera is particularly telling combined with the almost gloating that he didn't lynch a townie.

Vote: Nick

Farside is now confirmed correct?

[Sando]

So you suspected me from yesterday, yet decided Faraday was a better vote for you? Till what? What changed?

Javert, I addressed the point regarding Richard at the time. I also did not advocate that Richard should be the lynch to put the game 'in the bag', I was pointing out that peoples faulty logic, if followed to it's inevitable conclusion would do that. I was pointing out that the people who thought that Richard was scum-pushed never actually persued that. They apparently thought that they'd narrowed scum down to less than 50% of the players, yet didn't actively pursue that? That's BS.

[Sando]

So you suspected me from yesterday, yet decided Faraday was a better vote for you? Till what? What changed?

What's changed NOW is that you are failing to address any points put to you, and desperately trying to turn the attention elsewhere. Want to try again?

You haven't even put any points to me, merely made some generalised comments. ABR has made some points, I've answered them and pointed to previous answers. Javert has made some, I've answered them as well, not to mention that you made this accusation for the first time before he posted them.

What questions am I avoiding?

[Sando]

So you suspected me from yesterday, yet decided Faraday was a better vote for you? Till what? What changed?

What's changed NOW is that you are failing to address any points put to you, and desperately trying to turn the attention elsewhere. Want to try again?

Pretty sure you also changed your vote before I'd even posted today. Accusing me of avoiding questions seems like a bit of a stretch.

[Sando]

Sando, if you agreed with my thoughts yesterday about the hider, why did you vote to lynch him anyway?

I thought it would be in the best interest of town to leave the claimed hider alive and scumhunt elsewhere. Since there was too much resistance from people like ABR to even looking at anyone else yesterday, I changed my view to it being in the best interest of the town to lynch the claimed hider, a claim I didn't believe, and get on with proper scumhunting today. It wasn't ideal, but I thought it in towns interest to move on.

[Sando]

killed off a claimed powerrole whose claim he said he believed

Excuse me dybek, where did you say Sando said he believed the hider claim?

My bad - am confusing scum with each other. Should have been "killed off a claimed powerrole who he had previously said was worth leaving alive.", which clearly is a much less heinous crime.

I'm sorry who are you confusing me with? I don't recall anyone both believing the claim and voting for her?

[Sando]

Unvote, vote Sando

I've reviewed his posts and I simply don't like the duality of his position regarding Pom. He's trying to get her lynched while at the same time saying that it's better to keep her alive.

This is utter bullshit. I pushed hard against the lynch, until it was obvious that the stupid tunneling by people like you was ensuring that nothing else was going to be achieved until Pom was lynched. I didn't believe the claim, and because of that thought scum, but I consistently pushed against the wagon. Where did I try and get her lynched while saying we shouldn't?

Time to claim I guess:

Cop

My weak mode is tracker in all but name. My strong mode is cop. N1 I tracked Dybeck, he didn't target anyone. N2 I 'copped' CKD, he's innocent, I thought I crumbed that in a very bad and obvious way, but turns out it only made me seem scummier.

Sorry that I've been busy and haven't been around.

[Sando]

Why did you decide to track dybeck and cop ckd? Both targets and why did you choose said actions for each person?

First night I thought that with little to go on D1 in terms of my suspects, I'd use a weak power because I figured there'd be less or no ramifications, as I think everyone would have to assume that there are some ramifications for using at least our strong powers.

During the day, I realised that I was basically using a weak power for little gain. A tracker later on with a lot more claims on the table would be fairly powerful, while a cop early on would at least clear some people outright, and hopefully catch scum.

I was going to cop again tonight then track from then on, unless something weird came up.

Why them specifically? I thought that since Richard was a very high suspect D1, if scum have a choice over who does their kill, it was unlikely to be him. Dybeck avoided the Richard/BV thing pretty conspicuously I think as well.

CKD? I found him scummy yesterday, that much was pretty obvious I thought?

[Sando]

So quoting one part of a post where I pushed against the lynch yet in that instance wasn't pushing strongly enough for your liking is evidence that I didn't push against the lynch, evidence apparently that I was trying to get her lynched?

[Sando]

My weak mode is tracker in all but name. My strong mode is cop.

In weak mode, do you learn who someone targets or just that they used a night action?

Target

[Sando]

Oh right, who they targetted, by name I'm assuming. At least the wording says so, I haven't gotten a 'xxx targetted yyy' response as yet. My non-target merely stated that they didn't target anyone.