Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Patrick]

Votecount

RichardGHP (4) -- Porochaz, Faraday, bv310, Pomegranate
bv310 (10) -- Papa Zito, Seraphim, Espeonage, curiouskarmadog, Anon, RichardGHP, NickF227, boberz, farside22, Sando
Seraphim (1) -- Javert
boberz (1) -- dybeck
Pomegranate (4) -- Albert B. Rampage, Jahudo, Amished, Ojanen

Not voting: Nobody
20 alive, 11 to lynch.

Deadline: April 8th, 11 pm GMT.

[Sando]

I just finished a game with Richard as a replacement, the meta is simply wrong imo. Also, I just mislynched, and in ABR's opinion basically lost the game, based on meta on someone I trusted it on to a near certainty. I don't put a lot of faith in it, and it's weak.

Also,

Also you think players not voting for someone they read as VI should be done to clear up the matter?

English please?

Because the Richard wagon isn't happening, I believe we need an 11 person majority no matter what (ie top wagon isn't lynch at deadline), I can't guarantee my availability at deadline, and I've consistently rated BV as my 2nd or 3rd suspect that I'd be willing to lynch.

How many more reasons do you not want to work out for yourself?

[Seraphim]

bv310, you are at L-1. Claim?

[RichardGHP]

Sando that game was totally different than anything I've played before; it's certainly not appropriate to use for meta purposes.

bv claim please.

[farside22]

@Sando: Why should I vote someone I read as VI? What matter will it clear up? Why are you pushing the issue?

So far all I see from you is saying too many people say he's VI and voting him would clear things up. How does it clear anything?

[RichardGHP]

Actually

unvote

just in case scum try quickhammering.

[bv310]

What do you want me to claim? I'm a villager (vanilla townie). I have no special abilities other than my vote and my voice. I win when all anti-town players are eliminated.

[RichardGHP]

We want you to claim your real role. Now that we know it isn't a PR,

vote bv

.

inb4 someone misreps me saying that I support any lynch that isn't a PR.

[Javert]

1.)

After reading Pomegranate's posts in isolation, I think the case against her has merit. She is pretty much just questioning people, but she isn't really showing any interest in the answers (as Jahudo has pointed out, she never seems to follow up). That makes me feel more that she is trying to paint certain posts in certain ways, as opposed to trying to find out the intent of those posts.

2.)

I think bv310 is going to be lynched at this point, so I will just go on the record saying the following:

→

a.)

I do not think bv310's change of opinion on RichardGHP were scummy. Players change their minds fairly frequently, and especially on Day Ones. Just about every time he changed his opinion, he recognized in the same post or a post directly afterwards that he had changed his mind.
→

b.)

I do not think bv310 made a “scum slip” in Post 234. In my experience, “slips” are pretty much never actually valid, but they are more commonly just lingual mistakes made by players of all alignments from time to time.
→

c.)

The fact that bv310 changed his vote to RichardGHP after being pressured by Seraphim also does not seem very indicative of alignment to me. If he voted for RichardGHP, he would be attacked (as he was) for buckling under pressure. If he did not vote for RichardGHP, he would be attacked for not voting his claimed suspect. It strikes me as a Catch-22 situation.

What I

do

dislike about bv310 is (i) how he presented himself as a “lurker” before ever being accused of lurking, and more recently, (ii) how he tried to replace out directly before a deadline – that certainly gives me the feeling he is trying to duck out from being under pressure. But other than those two points, I'm really not seeing much meat on the bones of the case.

I'm sure there were other points made against bv310, but I don't recollect them offhand and I don't have the energy to search for them all.

Overall, even if bv310 turns out to be scum, I am critical of a good deal of the reasoning used to lynch him.

3.)

Seraphim, exactly why do you think RichardGHP was not an “easy target” by Post 180 of the game? I am trying to understand why you would think that. A player can be an easy vote regardless of whether or not there happens to be a "popular" wagon on them.

Additionally, could you please respond to this:

3.)

I am also a bit disturbed how one of Seraphim's criteria for being scum appears to be attacking the “popular” wagons, while at the same time Seraphim says in Post 538 that if he had three votes, he would vote for RichardGHP, bv310, and Espeonage – who were all the most popular wagons at that point in the game (with NickF227 being fourth).

“Attacking” should be “joining,” if there was any confusion. It feels like there is a double-standard here.

4.)

I will vote bv310 if it is necessary to avoid a No Lynch.

[boberz]

unvote

It is clear to me he is a VT, he doesnt realse saying it is a claim.

[Amished]

Oh, well then. There goes my theory that bv was a neighbor or lover or something with boberz. Now the question is if my gut was due to him {bv} being scum or stupid.. Meh, probably both.

Unvote:
Vote: bv130

[Papa Zito]

What do you want me to claim? I'm a villager (vanilla townie). I have no special abilities other than my vote and my voice. I win when all anti-town players are eliminated.

Do I get to facepalm.jpg now?

I don't like the way Javert's positioning himself.

[Porochaz]

I need to know what VI is, I have a feeling it references the player Vi but I have no idea and Im starting to get sick of it being used as a defence against both Richard and bv.

My top 4, bv, richard, espeonage and seraphim

I started reading from page 15 (roughly where my computer got taken away) and I immediately dislike Seraphims posts, I couldn't say why at the moment however I always got the feeling that he is never commiting himself and was quite flip floppy. Page 30 I was about to vote him straight off, Amisheds post didnt quite summate what Im feeling but went a good way towards it and Sera's terrible defence didnt do much to convince me otherwise.

Espeonage is similar particularly from approxamitely page 15 to 25ish, Oja's catch about him when she first replaced in was a good one and the fact I dont remember him posting for a long time now makes me wonder why hes suddenly gone off the radar.

Throughout the game, Richard has been terrible, I dont remember a good post made by him, myself and others have made posts against him and he hasnt helped himself at all with the periodic lurking and the failure to post something useful. However what Anon says is true in that there have been 7 people or so on the wagon for a while there has been no change and it has become stagnant. I dont like giving him another chance but he isnt a lynch candidate today so

unvote

Bv has made some terrible desisions in this game, not least the change of vote under the slightest of pressure, everytime he gets under pressure he disappears. He now wants replaced despite entering another game. A low move. There is a lack of anything in his posts if you take out the flip flopping over Richard, is posts are very pot/kettle/black when it comes down to ABR.

Suffice to say I plan to hammer tonight. Please put this down as a vote for bv if someone does it before me, I just want to make sure there is a last chance for people to say something.

I have reread the game as of page 15 now so if anyone has any specific questions on it I will answer but I will not be doing any PBPA or "posting my thoughts".

[boberz]

Hi

As some of you may have seen the election in Britain has been called. I am heavily involved in British politics so will not be as active as I have been in the past.

I will be on and commenting no need to replace, just a warning in advance.

[farside22]

Porochase: VI = village idiot.
It's not a nice term but in some cases it fits. I don't see bv as a VI. He came on strong and then once pressure started coming his way he started to actively lurk and not make any cases since the pressure came his way. He hasn't said anything about anyone so far which is a big issue for me.

[Jahudo]

VI = Village Idiot.

I have that feeling about BV, like he'd look scummy under a little bit of pressure no matter what his alignment is; that he write in a way that can be easily misinterpreted. I still don't see scum motivation from his play, and I believe the claim.

[Papa Zito]

Why do you believe the claim, Jahudo?

[Javert]

I don't like the way Javert's positioning himself.

Positioning myself for what?

[Jahudo]

Why do you believe the claim, Jahudo?

Well first I have a town read on him, so the question is whether I think his play makes sense as a VT and I think it does.

Takes his flip-flopping on Richard. I think town power roles would be more decisive in that situation, at least not changing a read in back-to-back posts. Since PRs aren't as expendable as VTs, I think they'd play more cautiously than BV has.

Also regarding his threat to replace out, followed by an /in at another game starting next week: I read it as genuinely being overwhelmed with mafiascum-type commitments, and not something town or scum would be more likely to do.

[farside22]

Why do you believe the claim, Jahudo?

Well first I have a town read on him, so the question is whether I think his play makes sense as a VT and I think it does.

Takes his flip-flopping on Richard. I think town power roles would be more decisive in that situation, at least not changing a read in back-to-back posts. Since PRs aren't as expendable as VTs, I think they'd play more cautiously than BV has.

Also regarding his threat to replace out, followed by an /in at another game starting next week: I read it as genuinely being overwhelmed with mafiascum-type commitments, and not something town or scum would be more likely to do.

Wait, wait, wait. he threated to replace out and in'ed to another game and you find this a null tell? How is this a person that is overwhelmed?
I see scum flip flop on views of players based on wagon more then town. Sorry I'm not biting this at all.

[Papa Zito]

I don't like the way Javert's positioning himself.

Positioning myself for what?

Looks like a pre-emptive "I told you so" post.

Takes his flip-flopping on Richard. I think town power roles would be more decisive in that situation, at least not changing a read in back-to-back posts. Since PRs aren't as expendable as VTs, I think they'd play more cautiously than BV has.

Why do you think town anything would be more likely to do this?

Also regarding his threat to replace out, followed by an /in at another game starting next week: I read it as genuinely being overwhelmed with mafiascum-type commitments, and not something town or scum would be more likely to do.

Why do you think a player who was overwhelmed in one game would immediately join another?

[dybeck]

I find vanilla townies tend to get lynched in any event once they're forced to a claim.

I completely understand that this is the usual way of things and I expect bv310 to bite the dust for this reason. It's hard to believe that boberz is exhibiting some superior skill by unvoting - seems more like a preemptive positioning.

But I hope you will take a closer look at boberz overnight. Believe me, later on, we're going to need to lynch him.

[Pomegranate]

Been V/LA, now I'm back.

Tomorrow is deadline, and if I'm not mistaken, I'll be in school during deadline.

Crud.

Yeah. I plan to catch up tonight. I'm also considering hammering bv. I'd like to hear from some people on his wagon maybe, if possible.

Sorry aout my play this day. I realize that I haven't done much, partly due to Passover and stuff. Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day for me, posting wise.

[boberz]

Dybeck, it is really bad form to set up lynches for the next day in that manner.

It is not me, his claim sounded genuine, I have not been the only one to say so. Unless you really promote killing off people who have claimed VT just in case they are not VT dybeck you do not have a leg to stand on.

We may aswell all claim now if you are not going to even consider the cliams might be true.

[boberz]

Ill do Richard or Pom now.

vote Richard

will be on tomorrow morning briefly to switch that vote if we need it.