Newbie 922: Day 3

[havingfitz]

Acosmist: In his first post he comes off a bit scummy imo, in saying that he dismisses mafia strategies in which he does not understand. Well what happens if these strategies can make or break the game, will you not try at least to learn them? I just find this a bit weird to start off with.

The points on Pancea are valid and seem to make sense.

In one of his posts he mentions that he doesn’t like receiving role pm’s, but this time was happy to receive it as the game meaning the game had started. We can only assume he is telling the truth or that he has a role that is not of just a townie. Last thing I picked up on he seems bothered by my post’s which is understandable

Panacea: Doesn’t like to share the way in which she likes to play which I can understand

but still think is a bit scummy

as it would be good for the town to know. Like someone else mentioned someone put me at L-3 so she unvotes me and puts Elemenatary Fermion at L-3 which makes no sense at all, unless it was just a simple mistake. She recommended a RVS yet when people voted her she starts asking for reasons which just contradicts the point of a RVS. Is definitely into the game and at first

seemed slightly scum in my eyes and sorta still is, but leaning more towards town.

So to conclude

FOS on Rayfrost, Panacea and Havingfitz
Unvote Vote Acosmist

Re-reading a bit since things are slow atm and my other games are in night and the lines I bolded above (other than the voting and FoSing part) are where I see discrepancies when coupled with your response to Nacho's questions to you.

3. What player do you find yourself agreeing with the most?

4. Why shouldn't we lynch you right now?

3. Tbh Panacea has brought up some good points imo and you as well besides the Cojin lynch idea.

I still don't see your reasoning for voting Acosmist based on your assessment of him. You think his first post is scummy and you give a reason but I do not understand it...perhaps you could elaborate? Then you say you agree with his points on Panacea...and follow that up with an assessment of Panacea where you say you thought she was scummy in the beginning...and you still do think she is scummy...though leaning towards town. WTH does that mean? Then you say she is the one you probably agree with the most. I find your uncertainty (vote-unvote, FoS, most likely to agree with) on Panacea to be very odd and coupled with your complete (sans one post) lack of content in the game very suspicious. I still maintain my suspicions towards Cojin and would be fine with a lynch on him...but after looking things over a bit closer you have passed Cojin on my list.

Unvote; Vote Lawls

@Cojin....how would you assess you play so far and are you still playing the game? If you are...why are your posts so infrequent and weak?

Votecount
Lawls - 4 (Elementary Fermion, Cojin, Acosmist, havingfitz)
Acosmist - 1 (Lawls)

Not Voting - 3 (Panacea, RayFrost, Nachomamma8)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch

[Acosmist]

But seriously, I appreciate the effort other people, especially Acosmist, have put into this strategy for this game, but I personally find it meta-tiring. (You know it's right!)

Well, when I'm faced with a 16-hour block of free time (i.e., any day of the week), I have to budget it carefully. How many hours should I spend polishing the frame my JD is in? How many hours looking for work? How many hours proving modal logic system K sound and complete? No matter what I do, it seems to leave several hours to play mafia! So I pour a porter, crack my knuckles, and plumb the dark depths of Terra Panacea.

For what it is worth, I could have sworn that Lawls was up to 3 votes (Cojin voted for him in Post 63, and I haven't found a retraction though I may have missed it).

This seems correct to me.

Mod: Can you check the votecount?

Did you understand my contract bridge point?

Not really, but to be honest, this is strategy-talk, and you're not going to convince me that my strategies (of sometimes withholding reasons) don't help me find scum.

Well, in game theoretic terms, we can regard finding scum as some sort of positive value. This being a Newbie game, though, you can't have the sort of synergy with another ability that magnifies that value until it becomes decisive. If you were good at discovering scum and a vigilante, well, uncork the champagne. What you have to do in a Newbie game is convince the rest of the town to throw support behind your scumhunting results. The strategy of concealing your suspicions thwarts the cultivation of trust you need to convert the potential gain of scum detected into the actual gain of scum lynched.

I'll become more active when I'm being asked questions and when I feel the need to point out or say something.

I am glad to hear you will be changing your playing style in response to this pressure. That comforts me.

No I will not stay this passive the whole game.

No, I imagine not.

I want thoughts on Acosmist just to see what people think of his play not to validate my vote on him as you say.

Are you utterly convinced, then?

I voted you because I think you are scum and I stating reasons in the post you quoted me on.

I recently quoted those reasons, so I won't do that again. I will, however, direct you to this post, where I refute your contrived reasons. I had some questions in that post you still haven't answered. Why?

If you don't think they are strong enough reasons to vote you fine then, I can't make up your mind.

My mind as to my alignment was actually made up when I received my role PM, so, yeah, trying to convince me otherwise about myself would likely come to nothing.

In my opinion, when Ray reads a Townie-role pm, he sees an opportunity to speak without the necessary filter of scumplay, and I feel his objective is to point out who scum is early on, make us laugh while he figures it out, and then get lynched for his candor or Killed for the threat he poses scum.

Tally the number of people he's cleared or semi-cleared as town in this game versus the number of people he's pointed out as scum.

Then tell me what that means to you.

unvote, FoS: cojin

because I'm way too lazy to check the vote count

Calling someone out post-Panacea...hm....thoughts, Ms. Panacea?

Also, I really like these questions of Nacho's, and think we'd all benefit if everyone answered them:

What do you think of a Cojin lynch? Would you be on the lynchwagon? Why/why not?
Which of the players in this game would you not want to be in LyLo with?
What player do you find yourself agreeing with the most?
Why shouldn't we lynch you right now?

All right.

Cojin is about in the middle of the pack for me. I wouldn't lynch him. I'd be displeased to see him lynched. He hasn't posted much and it'd be nice if he took the hint to stop lurking, but, unlike Lawls, he posts dead-on content when he does post.

RayFrost and Panacea. I know who's getting the rope in that situation.

Panacea until recently. I hope her RayFrost fangirlism can be purged; I'm hoping my questions here help do that.

Don't lynch me until you've had the chance to push me over the edge into a drunken collapse. It's fun to watch.

Use

to sure like to talk a lot between yourselves don't you ;D

MY EYES THE GOGGLES DO NOTHING

Yeh I know about the rule of no outside communication, all good ;D

RayFrost just a quick quesiton.

Do you see my game different from game 909? if so in which ways?

If that game is still ongoing I'd be all sorts of happy if it didn't get discussed.

I see havingfitz has said something while I constructed this, but that's all I can manage before breakfast.

[RayFrost]

unvote, FoS: cojin

because I'm way too lazy to check the vote count

Calling someone out post-Panacea...hm....thoughts, Ms. Panacea?

You mean it

isn't

obvious that I was going "WATCH ME ATTEMPT TO PERFECTLY MATCH THE META THAT PANACEA PUT FORTH IN SUCH AN OBVIOUS AND DELIBERATE FASHION THAT IT IS RIDICULOUS" in those posts?

Also, if you are going to ask somebody else their thoughts, you better be prepared to share your own.

What do

you

think about it, bub?

[Acosmist]

I still don't see your reasoning for voting Acosmist based on your assessment of him. You think his first post is scummy and you give a reason but I do not understand it...perhaps you could elaborate? Then you say you agree with his points on Panacea...and follow that up with an assessment of Panacea where you say you thought she was scummy in the beginning...and you still do think she is scummy...though leaning towards town. WTH does that mean? Then you say she is the one you probably agree with the most. I find your uncertainty (vote-unvote, FoS, most likely to agree with) on Panacea to be very odd and coupled with your complete (sans one post) lack of content in the game very suspicious. I still maintain my suspicions towards Cojin and would be fine with a lynch on him...but after looking things over a bit closer you have passed Cojin on my list.

Unvote; Vote Lawls

Lawls, you need to answer all those questions. Explain the contradictory analysis post, explain the trends that work in two directions, explain exactly what you think of me and Panacea. I've posted questions as well, and I'd like them answered.

Two things I don't want to see from Lawls: one-liner deflection posts and posts that dodge the questions outstanding.

unvote, FoS: cojin

because I'm way too lazy to check the vote count

Calling someone out post-Panacea...hm....thoughts, Ms. Panacea?

You mean it

isn't

obvious that I was going "WATCH ME ATTEMPT TO PERFECTLY MATCH THE META THAT PANACEA PUT FORTH IN SUCH AN OBVIOUS AND DELIBERATE FASHION THAT IT IS RIDICULOUS" in those posts?

Calm down, Cochise. Panacea's logic seemed to be as follows:

If RayFrost is town, he points out scum early on.

(missing premises)

RayFrost is town.

What

I

noticed was that RayFrost wasn't calling out scum at all. So, the negation of the consequent is true. Modus tollens, RayFrost is not town.

I don't accept Panacea's initial premise, but she must, because she posted it, so I'm deriving the conclusions her reasoning would lead to. The entire point of getting each of you to meta the other was so that I, a person who made himself familiar with the play styles of both of you, could point out any discrepancies. Well, Panacea's premises don't match her conclusion. I want her to explain that further so I can see whether it makes one or both of you suspicious.

Whether you did try to call out scum in order to support her logic is another matter, and I want her opinion on it as well.

Also, if you are going to ask somebody else their thoughts, you better be prepared to share your own.

k

What do

you

think about it, bub?

History of alignment judgments ITT:

pan is obv town to me.

Positive on Panacea.

I would like one answer from everybody at this stage.

What are your thoughts on Acomist's play so far
What are your thoughts on my play so far

Thankyou

Acomist seems slightly towny, but nothing solid yet. His posting style is consistent.

You are being only slightly more helpful than before. Slightly townigh because of that.

Positive on Acosmist, Lawls.

I've played with pan-town and seen pan-scum, so I can tell the difference between pan-scum carefulness and pan-town carefulness. For one, she's self-conscious as town. She's worried about every little mistake as if it would cause her to be struck down by a modkill... >.>"

Positive on Panacea again.

words

Wellp, this guy is town, you can earn stars for seeing it just like in elementary school math. If not, feel free to ask yourself why I may think this and then ask me.

Positive on Elementary Fermion.

I would also like to point out that cojin has a shiny metal object that he hides in his house in order to 'deal with' people he doesn't like.

I have this based off of the fact I

am batman

have a scum read on him due to no other reason than that my gut says that he's prob scum.

If you guys have a problem with this, you'll have to

get an appointment with my secretary

bug me to come up with reasoning.

unvote, FoS: cojin

because I'm way too lazy to check the vote count

Negative on Cojin.

Panacea has a skewed judgment of you because she's played with you, and she's magnifying the importance of your particular play patterns in those games. I'm not as concerned that you haven't been calling out scum, because I don't expect that from town RayFrost. I am slightly bothered by the fact that you've been clearing so many people, because that's an easy thing for scum to do, with their insider knowledge.

Panacea, time to offer your thoughts on this.

[Lawls]

Which points and what made sense about them? Why did they only "seem" to make sense?

Your point about her spaming a lot is valid. Most of her posts contribute to the game but some just are here and there sorta posts. And I agree with the way she plays after reading a game of her's

[RayFrost]

'seems slightly towny' isn't exactly clearing you.

so... two positives, one negative in a nine player game.

amazing that I'm clearing so many people.

[Cojin]

Cojin....how would you assess you play so far and are you still playing the game? If you are...why are your posts so infrequent and weak?

Im sorry i hold full responcibility, im just having trouble feeling much of this game as far as my reads go most of the walls of texts seem to be town on town.

Lawls seems to be saying more but i cant tell if its because of the accusations of active lurking or because they are legitimitly doing something but they are still on my radar (and i would much prefer them placing a sex so i can stop using ambigous terms) also asking for people to refrence play from previous games im having trouble seperating if it is A) lawls generaly wanting to Improve or B) laws trying to pull of a false town meta.


Ray frost your secretary was not in and bruce wayne just CCed batman, Why do you think im scum?

[RayFrost]

last paragraph of this post is scummy to me

I dislike the disclaimer in the first part of this, especially considering he didn't keep the promise

the vote count conveniently shows that cojin says lawls is scum yet isn't voting

and overall very little content, probably related to the fact he doesn't really post much.

[havingfitz]

last paragraph of this post is scummy to me

I dislike the disclaimer in the first part of this, especially considering he didn't keep the promise

the vote count conveniently shows that cojin says lawls is scum yet isn't voting

and overall very little content, probably related to the fact he doesn't really post much.

I don't see a great difference between Cojin and Lawls. Both are borderline lurkers and have brought very little (aka nothing) to the game. I would be surprised if they were both scum but shocked if at least one wasn't. And townCojin or townLawls aren't much better than their scum alternatives.

[RayFrost]

I find cojin slightly scummier since his attack on lawls was opportunistic (lawls has been a focus), and I have played with both of them as town with lawls actually being more pro-town this game and cojin being less pro-town.

[Acosmist]

Which points and what made sense about them? Why did they only "seem" to make sense?

Your point about her spaming a lot is valid. Most of her posts contribute to the game but some just are here and there sorta posts. And I agree with the way she plays after reading a game of her's

That's it? You choose one question every time you post, and ignore all the others? Well, oops on me for breaking out the question mark so much in this post, because I'll only get an answer to one of these.

So, what are "here and there sorta posts"? Which game of hers did you read? What do you think of the way she plays?

You have four votes on you, whatever the mod's count says. Cojin voted and never unvoted. How does that make you feel?

'seems slightly towny' isn't exactly clearing you.

It sure isn't finding scum, though, right?

so... two positives, one negative in a nine player game.

A positive judgment doesn't have to be "this person is completely, utterly town." You gave weak positive judgments on me and Lawls, and strong positive judgments on Panacea and Elementary Fermion.

amazing that I'm clearing so many people.

I just posted your history and showed that it was at odds with what Panacea was saying. Not much room for arguing here.

Lawls seems to be saying more

I sometimes wonder if I am reading the same game. Lawls is saying more?

but i cant tell if its because of the accusations of active lurking or because they are legitimitly doing something

Not the latter.

but they are still on my radar

And your vote is still on him!

(and i would much prefer them placing a sex so i can stop using ambigous terms)

Where is your avatar?

also asking for people to refrence play from previous games im having trouble seperating if it is A) lawls generaly wanting to Improve or B) laws trying to pull of a false town meta.

Yeah I am not sure how much help his saying "I suck hardcore as town all the time" is going to be.

the vote count conveniently shows that cojin says lawls is scum yet isn't voting

The votecount is wrong.

and overall very little content, probably related to the fact he doesn't really post much.

He nailed Lawls when he did post, though, so he gets points for that.

I don't see a great difference between Cojin and Lawls. Both are borderline lurkers and have brought very little (aka nothing) to the game. I would be surprised if they were both scum but shocked if at least one wasn't. And townCojin or townLawls aren't much better than their scum alternatives.

I agree Cojin have posted little, but he's actually added some content and was calling out Lawls very early. I wouldn't lump him in with Lawls. Lawls has been called out for his meaningless posts and contradictory analysis, and he's still doing it. Cojin is, in theory, teachable with some well-applied pressure.

I find cojin slightly scummier since his attack on lawls was opportunistic (lawls has been a focus), and I have played with both of them as town with lawls actually being more pro-town this game and cojin being less pro-town.

He was the second vote on Lawls. He was on Lawls early, before Lawls became the whipping boy of the thread.

[RayFrost]

so... two positives, one negative in a nine player game.

A positive judgment doesn't have to be "this person is completely, utterly town." You gave weak positive judgments on me and Lawls, and strong positive judgments on Panacea and Elementary Fermion.

I am slightly bothered by the fact that you've been

clearing so many people,

because that's an easy thing for scum to do, with their insider knowledge. [/url]

Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. You totally didn't say I was clearing people.

Also, finding townies is as good as finding scum (and in some ways better), as you can do it

for process of elimination to find scum

.

If you figure out all of the townies, you have also figured out all of the scum.

So... town reads is beneficial.

Town hunting is as useful as scumhunting.

So yeah.

You saying it isn't finding scum would be an inaccurate statement.

[Acosmist]

so... two positives, one negative in a nine player game.

A positive judgment doesn't have to be "this person is completely, utterly town." You gave weak positive judgments on me and Lawls, and strong positive judgments on Panacea and Elementary Fermion.

I am slightly bothered by the fact that you've been

clearing so many people,

because that's an easy thing for scum to do, with their insider knowledge.

Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. You totally didn't say I was clearing people.

You: Two positive, one negative

Acosmist: Actually, that's four positive, one negative.

You: Well, you said I was clearing people.

You never actually, and can't, deny that you gave positive judgments on four people. Why the misdirection?

Also, finding townies is as good as finding scum (and in some ways better), as you can do it

for process of elimination to find scum

.

You're preaching to the choir, so to speak. Did I deny that finding townies was a Good Thing? You forget the context of the discussion.

I feel his objective is to point out who scum is early on

Panacea said it was a town tell for you to "point out who scum is early on." Early on, all your alignment judgments had the modality of pointing out town.

Do you realize that you are arguing against Panacea? I'm not the one who called these things out as town tells. In fact, I doubted that Panacea had correctly identified a distinguishing mark of your town play.

If you figure out all of the townies, you have also figured out all of the scum.

So... town reads is beneficial.

Town hunting is as useful as scumhunting.

So yeah.

All this above is either directed at Panacea or misunderstands what I've been doing.

You saying it isn't finding scum would be an inaccurate statement.

The road from pointing me out as seeming slightly towny to finding scum is pretty twisted. But, again, this entire theory of RayFrost-as-scumhunter is Panacea's baby, not mine. What do I say, now? "I agree, Ray, the theory that I said was wrong is wrong." +1 Acosmist!

[RayFrost]

'seems slightly towny' isn't exactly clearing you.

It sure isn't finding scum, though, right?

my comment there (about finding townies finding scum) was in response to this.

[Acosmist]

'seems slightly towny' isn't exactly clearing you.

It sure isn't finding scum, though, right?

my comment there (about finding townies finding scum) was in response to this.

Uh huh, and saying that I seem slightly towny is pretty far from finding scum. It doesn't even count as finding town. It expresses a slight increase in your confidence that one person is town.

So, taking that to be "finding scum" is a stretch. There are intermediate links in the chain that you're taking for granted and that I think you have to fill in before that counts as "finding scum" credit.

It also counts

not at all

as pointing out scum, which is what Panacea thinks you do as town.

I am glad we derailed the thread with a discussion of the game theory of identifying townies as a scumhunting technique, in the middle of a discussion of a third person's opinion on your play that we apparently both think is wrong.

[havingfitz]

Cojin is about in the middle of the pack for me. I wouldn't lynch him. I'd be displeased to see him lynched. He hasn't posted much and it'd be nice if he took the hint to stop lurking, but, unlike Lawls, he posts dead-on content when he does post.

Dead on content? Huh?

Cojin ISO (questions to Cojin in bold):
ISO 0 - Unvotes, gives IC credentials, asks Panacea a good question about her freaking out over the early L-3 votes.
ISO 1 - Freaks out himself over Pan being put at L-3

<--so why was it enough of an issue to question Pan about it?

ISO 2 - Admits to being bad IC, urges discussion, tells others (sans Pan) to flop to a different L-3 and asks why Pan should go.
ISO 3 - Apologizes for grammer fail. Tries to explain his ISO 2 post and makes these two [sarcasm]excellent comments:[/sarcasm]

• "overall its quite a good thing to have her at l-2 at this stage"
  <---If L-3 is so bad....why are you a proponent of an early L-2?
  
  
  
  "her lack of panic makes me feel she is comfortable that she wont be quicklynched (as she may be scum and thus a quicklynch at l-2 impossible)"
  <--so are you saying you think Pan is scum? BTW...your vote is on your fellow lurker.

ISO 4 - Explains ISO 3 post and says he is going to go get an avatar.
ISO 5 - Answers question (says he prefers being town) and gives his interpretation of Lawls timezone excuse post...and then votes Lawls for active lurking.
ISO 6 - Makes this observation re: me,

"What i dont understand is how he blatently ignored how much lawls was lurking yet attacked him for less."

which I later show to be completely inaccurate.
ISO 7 - Answers question re: his opinion of Acosmist and Lawls.
ISO 8 - Asks something about his momma and makes a completely gibberish coment on metas.
ISO 9 - Apologizes for his play (I think), elaborates on his Lawls opinion (more gibberish) and asks RF why he (RF) think Cojin is scum (amongst an odd secretary/batman joke).

I think Lawls is scummier at the moment...but I really don't see anything redeeming about Cojin's game unless you consider his initial questions to Panacea enough to consider the reast of his posts dead-on.

[havingfitz]

Can everyone give their top two suspects...especially those who haven't got a vote out yet? It's obvious for a few of you (ie those who have voted) but for others not so much.

Also...Cojin and Lawls aren't the only ones lacking in the post/content department (lurking?). They are just doing it the best at the moment.

[Nachomamma8]

Acosmist, a word of advice. Curb the walls of text a little bit because you are making some pretty good points right now, and people tend to ignore posts that are longer than their screen. Also, always attribute quotes to people. It makes reading easier.

But while you're on the phone... I'm curious about your vote on Rayfrost. You said earlier that you don't like reaction hunting early game (i have no idea why not, since reactions to early wagons really are the only way to find scum) so you aren't reaction hunting. You have genuine reasons to suspect Rayfrost. This really isn't a question, I guess.

First, let me define what I view as reaction hunting. To me, reaction hunting is doing something that could be view as anti-town, or voting or accusing without justification. As for my reasons of suspecting Ray, it was mainly due to his incredible confidence that Panacea was town; he didn't lend any thought at all to Panacea being scum, which I found odd.

Top two suspects are BaB and RayFrost.

[RayFrost]

Cojin and nobody else at the moment.

BaB isn't posting enough for me to get a read on him.

Nacho, I analyzed pan's play up to the point that I called her town and felt that she was town.

It wasn't just

*replaces in* Oh, panacea is in the game, obviously town!

[Nachomamma8]

There are really only 2 problems I have with the TownPan case. 1) You cleared her mostly based on either past experiences with her (which we have to take your word for), or based on the weakness of a case so early in the game, and 2) You offered no new suspects as replacements. You haven't even voted anyone this whole game; you've only unvoted. You've been far more aggressive in derailing a wagon than you have creating one, and everyone knows it's easier for scum to defend than attack...

[RayFrost]

There are really only 2 problems I have with the TownPan case. 1) You cleared her mostly based on either past experiences with her (which we have to take your word for), or based on the weakness of a case so early in the game, and 2) You offered no new suspects as replacements. You haven't even voted anyone this whole game; you've only unvoted. You've been far more aggressive in derailing a wagon than you have creating one, and everyone knows it's easier for scum to defend than attack...

Sorry, I didn't know the # of votes on cojin, so I didn't vote him.

Lemme rectify this ( )

vote: cojin

[Elementary Fermion]

Can everyone give their top two suspects...especially those who haven't got a vote out yet? It's obvious for a few of you (ie those who have voted) but for others not so much.

My top choice is still Lawls, which is why I still have my vote on him. I random-voted for him, and the ensuing discussion, mostly by Acosmist and RayFrost, has persuaded me to keep it.

As for my second choice, it is a tie between. . . Acosmist and RayFrost. The sudden hostility is. . . odd. You were both doing what you were doing, and then doing it with anger. Actually, I would go with RayFrost as Acosmist has been constantly scumhunting and RayFrost as started providing gems like:

So... town reads is beneficial.

Town hunting is as useful as scumhunting.

So yeah.

You saying it isn't finding scum would be an inaccurate statement.

This is I feel not at all an accurate representation of what Acosmist was saying, though he defended himself well--making any attempt for me to do so redundant. But, the misdirection combined with the sudden attitude shift is setting off alarms for me.

[Cojin]

I would say my top 2 scum are laws and well thats all i got,

as far as the pancea sparked my radar on how quickly she jumped wagons, so i guess she is a small blip and the closest thing i got.

I am also willing to put lawls at l-1 by tommorow depending on what people think

[RayFrost]

I am also willing to put lawls at l-1 by tommorow depending on what people think

I am also willing to actually vote lawls by tomorrow if nobody will attack me for it

[BridgesAndBaloons]

@ Bridges: I'll start making spelling errors to match my Town meta? Lol, you DID meta me, yes? I'm a very proud English major, and I daresay I don't submit a remarkable quantity of spelling errors, whatever my alignment.

That was just an example of a possible meta and wasn't intended to be taken literally. I still haven't meta'd you and I can't determine exactly what it is yet. Also, very interesting that you consider English Major = no spelling errors. I know that math teachers make just as many, if not more, careless errors, than other people.