Mini 922 - Mafia in Mo Town [Game Over]

[Nikanor]

Your reasons that LAL is scummy (correct me if I'm wrong):

Objection!
I never said it was scummy. I said it was a cop-out as either alignment. Even some townies like to shut off their brains and just follow the mob. Anyway,

Applies equally to Lynch All Lurkers.

But lurking is scummy. Lying is not scummy.

How many games would that be? And more importantly, were the people using LAL as justification scum or Town?

On this site, two (including this one). Both of the games are ongoing, so I can't talk about them. And again, I never said it was a tell. I'm not trying to make using LaL into a tell, because it's not. I'm trying to convince people that LaL is a crappy reason to lynch someone. I guess that makes MD a better place for it, but vOv.

Again, applies equally to Lynch All Lurkers, or any lynching policy.

I only policy lynch people that won't let me get a read on them. That includes people following policy lynches, ironically, as well as lurkers.

[xRECKONERx]

There's a serious problem with Monkey's flip: I can't honestly call anyone on his wagon scummy, because Monkey's play was horrible, and the rotten cherry on top was him taking back his fakeclaim. Nikanor is giving me aggressive scum vibes, and couple that with the fact that I have a pretty solid town read on almightybob... well, it makes Nikanor look even scummier.

"ALL THE SCUM WERE ON THE MONKEYMAN WAGON!!!!"
- That's 1) not verifiable and 2) out of any day one wagon EVER, this is the one I can honestly say is possibly completely town-driven because of how bad Monkey's play was.

"YAY LYNCH ALL LIARS. BOO LYNCH ALL LURKERS."
- IMO, Liars is a better policy. Truth and deductive reasoning are the towns tools. Scum lie and manipulate. If someone is lying, lynch them. Lurking is a null tell, since that person will either 1) be replaced or 2) just isn't that into the game anyway. I know I've lurked through more games as VT than I have as scum because not having a power role can bore me sometimes if it's not the right environment.

"WIFOM ALERT!"
- Alerting us it's WIFOM doesn't change the fact that it's WIFOM.

[hitogoroshi]

So hitero just shows up to call out those voting for monkey, after he fakeclaimed, then admitted his claim was fake. Sorry, not taking the blame for monkey being an idiot. Those strategically avoiding the whole situation (ahem, hitero) look much worse, IMO.

Firstly, it's hito. No e, no r. >.>

And this is completely wrong. You're saying 'You're calling out people who voted Monkey after he fakeclaimed' but that's just flat out wrong. You'll notice my analysis stops not as his lynch, but at him taking back his claim. You'll also notice that I am getting flak for SUPPORTING lynch all liars - so I'm certainly not calling people out for lynching Monkey-the-lying-VT.

I also don't like that you only voted for monkey after he took back his claim. You voted for monkey -

twice

- in the period of time between his JOAT claim and his recanting of the claim. This is what I am giving you scum points for.

Despite what Nik may tell you, you do not get town points staying OFF the wagon of a fakeclaimer. Look at this case. There are literally two living players who were not on the Monkey wagon. It's not like this lynch was something only scum would support.

I wasn't giving you town points. I was giving you scum points. Try to pay attention. You were technically on the Monkey wagon anyway.

No, you're giving me an honorary position on the Monkey wagon, remember? I'm saying 'it's not a scummy thing to be on Monkey's wagon, even though Nikanor's posts are stating something to that effect."

>WIFOM ALERT!<
The current site meta would mean that Monkey would be absolutely eaten alive for going back on a PR claim. So much so that the fact is that if he was scum, he would not have bothered going back on the claim and would instead have waited until the next day. Make sense?
>END WIFOM<

Two big reasons why that is totally wrong. Firstly, I think we can agree that there was no incentive for Monkey to do that. So, buried in your reasoning is the idea that anyone who does something they have absolutely no incentive to do, regardless of alignment, must be town. It boils down to the idea that 'all idiots are town', which is obviously false.

Secondly, while you did warn of a WIFOM alert, that doesn't make it any less true. The instant you incentive anti-town behavior, it becomes effective, at least at the margins. This can be expanded to the idea that

the very fact that you're willing to call someone town for an incentive-less lie is proof positive that there is incentive for scum to lie

.

The very point of Lynch all Liars is to make sure that as few townies tell pointless lies as possible. Monkey isn't a sign that we need to adjust the meta, he's just a sign that we need to drill it into every person's head NOT TO POINTLESSLY LIE.

Preview-edit: Yeah Reck is on my wavelength. Awesome.

Though, Reck, it's worth noting that if you count me as a member of the Monkey wagon (I would have voted him, you can be damn sure) there are really only two people alive who WEREN'T on the Monkey wagon. So your point is true but kinda moot.

[hitogoroshi]

EBWOP:

I also don't like that you only voted for monkey after he took back his claim. You voted for monkey - twice - in the period of time between his JOAT claim and his recanting of the claim. This is what I am giving you scum points for.

This should say, "don't like

that you're saying

that you only voted..."

[Nikanor]

Ftr, I'm not answering anything directed at me that has to do with my opinions on LaL. I've already made my opinion clear. The only difference between Mafia and Town in a normal game is that Mafia try to survive while Town try to lynch mafia. Therefore, the only way to tell the difference between scum and town is to look at their motivation. Is there a survivalist motivation behind needlessly lying on a site where most people will immediately kill a liar without a second thought? No. Is there a survivalist motivation to lurking? Yes. That is why lurking is scummy and lying is not scummy.

Also Reck, my WIFOM is perfectly valid. I'd like for you to find flaw in it. Prove to me why the contrary to that argument is true, and I'll accept that I am wrong.

[Nikanor]

hito, the point is that scum are thinking about surviving, and that's it. Monkey going back on his claim made me think that he wasn't just thinking about his own survival. That is what I'm trying to say there.

[Nikanor]

The instant you incentive anti-town behavior, it becomes effective, at least at the margins. This can be expanded to the idea that the very fact that you're willing to call someone town for an incentive-less lie is proof positive that there is incentive for scum to lie.

Yes, and I gave incentive AFTER Monkey claimed. The incentive wasn't there before he claimed, and he had no reason to believe that it would be there.

[almightybob]

I never said it was scummy. I said it was a cop-out as either alignment.

My mistake.

But lurking is scummy. Lying is not scummy.

How about you try to show me

WHY

these statements are true, instead of just saying them over and over. Look, I'll show you how it's done.

I believe the opposite to you - that lurking is not necessarily scummy, and that lying is much more scummy. My reasoning is as follows:

Lurking - There are a near-infinite number of reasons why someone might lurk. They mayb be busy with RL, they may feel they have nothing to say, they may be scum trying not to draw attention, they might just not care about the game. While I agree that it can be an okay tactic as scum, there are so many reasons Town might lurk that it becomes a nulltell. That's not to say we should put up with lurkers, because they hurt Town's chances. But they're just as likely to be Town hurting Town's chances as scum hurting Town's chances.

Lying - lying is built into the scum role. From the beginning, you have to fabricate suspicions and opinions. Every time you say as scum "I think X is scum", you are lying, and especially about your role. Conversely, there are very few reasons for Town to lie. Perhaps they might not tell the whole truth, but an outright lie is rarely a good thing for Town. Therefore I feel that a liar is much more likely to be scum than town, since scum by definition need to lie, whereas Town do not and should not.

Now your turn.

On this site, two (including this one)

Only two? Then why did you make a big deal out of it, as if you have some long history of LAL backfiring?? Christ.
If I flip a coin twice, and it comes up heads twice, does that make the coin biased because it came up heads "every time"? 2 samples is

nowhere near

enough to scrap a policy.

[almightybob]

Gah, sniped. Reading your posts now.

[almightybob]

Is there a survivalist motivation behind needlessly lying on a site where most people will immediately kill a liar without a second thought? No.

I lied because vanilla townie claims usually get lynched for being not useful anyways.

[xRECKONERx]

Also Reck, my WIFOM is perfectly valid. I'd like for you to find flaw in it. Prove to me why the contrary to that argument is true, and I'll accept that I am wrong.

I already did yesterday. I said that MonkeyMan probably claimed, realized we were going to tell him which abilities to use that night (so he couldn't doc protect and claim that was his JOAT use). After he realized his claim would be undone, he went back on it and thought claiming he is VT now instead would look like a town gambit. Instead, it looked like a blatant scum gambit (and obviously the vast majority of the town agree with me), and got a member of the town lynched.

To say it is pro-town to lie about your role then reveal that you are lying is quite frankly wrong. Even if what I said was WIFOM, you can't prove anything you're saying is anything more than WIFOM. At the best, it's a null tell - and even that null tell on top of how shitty MM had been playing would've been enough for a lynch for most people.

[KittyMo]

Vote Count XV

[1] Sakako - (almightybob)

[1] almightybob - (Nikanor)

[0] AlmasterGM - ()
[0] Espeonage - ()
[0] hitogoroshi - ()
[0] kyle99 - ()
[0] Lowell - ()
[0] Netopalis - ()
[0] Nikanor - ()
[0] xRECKONERx - ()

[8]

Not Voting

- (AlmasterGM, Espeonage, hitogoroshi, kyle99, Lowell, Netopalis, xRECKONERx, Sakako)

With

10

alive, it's

6

to lynch!

Deadline is at Wednesday, March 10, 2010 at 8:00:00 AM (San Diego time).

[Espeonage]

Anyone given some thought to the possibility that scum are just sitting back watching the town squabble over stupid things like which is better out of the two types of LaL?
Ok time to move back and look at what we have.
1. What all of a sudden has cleared kyle of all the suspicion he had on him yesterday?
2. Who the hell cares about Lying v Lurking both are bad get over that arguement. Neither of you will back down. Nothiong is going to be gained from the arguement except frustration and the possibility of a resultant mis-lynch.
3. hito: I would be interested to hear the rest of your wagon analysis which you said was coming a while ago but I think got forgotten.

[xRECKONERx]

Don't worry Esp. I'm all for a kyle wagon. I know it's hypocritical, but his hammer came at a time when we could've gleaned more info in retrospect.

[AlmasterGM]

Don't worry Esp. I'm all for a kyle wagon. I know it's hypocritical, but his hammer came at a time when we could've gleaned more info in retrospect.

Yeah, no. This advocacy shift will not be permitted.

[Netopalis]

Hey, sorry, I've been falling a bit behind - I'm going to do a quick reread over today and tomorrow and post some content.

[xRECKONERx]

He advocates lynch all liars in the RVS, even in a joking manner. Contrast this against his later stance on the matter.

Not to mention, just iso him and read through his first 14 posts in the topic. They're all lurky - promises to catch up, bitching about how many posts there are, etc. When he finally does post ANYTHING of content, it's a half-assed case on AGM. He says at least one of them is scum, then puts a vote on AGM when there are two viable wagons on MonkeyMan and Sakako. I can't in all good faith give him town points for this seeing as how he COMPLETELY ignored the two main wagons for the day.

When pressured further on it, he simply says "I don't think the current wagons are adequate". No specific points he disagrees with, no kind of defense, nothing. He continues to imply that there's no way MM kyle or Sak are scum, but refuses to give reasons. And how about this:

Oh. I thought you would just lurk and not reread and then jump on the Monkey wagon, kyle. Well played.
I didn't actually think kyle was town, btw. Now I'm seeing more town in him, though.
kyle, want to join me on the Almaster wagon?

How about that hammer on MM, eh Nik?

He then unvotes once his awful AGM case doesn't get any traction, then blatantly wagons Neto WITH NO REASONING BEHIND HIS VOTE WHATSOEVER. He continues to beg for a Neto wagon and never gives any reasoning or presents a case.

His iso 37 is 1) arrogant as hell and 2) scummy as hell. He says he's going to start policy lynching anyone who uses Lynch all Liars as their argument (hmm... didn't he do that in the RVS?). He uses faulty logic and says anyone who wasn't on the MM wagon is auto-town... despite the fact that MM played like shit and was very scummy and could easily draw a bunch of town support while the scum just sat by and watched. WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM.

His current back and forth with bob is just mind-numbingly awful and makes me want to jab golf pencils into my eyes.

Anyway, Nikanor has posted faux-content this entire game and has tried to pass it off as him doing some active scumhunting, when in fact he hasn't. A lot of his points are made using WIFOM and... yeah... he's just so blatantly lurker-scum-who-tried-vehemently-to-stay-off-the-mislynch-then-start-firing-at-everyone-who-was-on-the-wagon, I can't not

Vote: Nikanor

.

[kyle99]

Hey guys, sorry about my absense, I've been busy with school. I should be more active once the weekend comes around.

I think xReck is scum. When I hammered monkey, he went on to say that "+town points for kyle". After his flip, he's saying that it was a bad hammer and says that "I'm all for a kyle wagon. I know it's hypocritical, but his hammer came at a time when we could've gleaned more info in retrospect."

vote: xReck

[xRECKONERx]

Nothing about my case on Nikanor, kyle?

>.>

I'm aware of what I said. This was also when I thought we'd have sure-fire scum flipping for us. You however have yet to make a case or present any content either way. So stop using bullshit fucking excuses and either contribute or replace out.

[Espeonage]

Even though I mentioned it I don't think that kyle actually gained scum points from the hammer. Were I in his spot I would have hammered as well. I was more wondering what heppened to the suspicion on him yesterday. At the moment I can see Nika being town and arguing with other towns while scum sides with Nika.
I no longer have a top suspect but I will have a look through again tomorrow because i am moving out of home to board with a friend today so I probably wont be on again until tonight or tomorrow.

[AlmasterGM]

Nik looks pretty scummy. So does hitogoroshi. I have no clue how, after that scumtastic post yesterday, he managed to fall off everyone's radar by 1) posting a ton of IIoA, 2) promising to follow up on it, 3) and then not doing so.

Vote: hitogoroshi

[hitogoroshi]

Yeah I kind of deserve that vote for not following through that night. I decided to try the whole 'studying' thing for my chem test, with surprisingly good results. I still don't think wanting to delay a bit and get in content at that decision point is all that scummy, but if you think it is, I don't have anything to say that I haven't already.

Anyway, my reasoning for the reads I gave on the wagon. I won't be linking to the posts in question because MS is lagging it up right now, but if you can't find a specific post let me know and I'll hit you up.

Sakako's actions on the Monkey wagon do a lot to point to him as town. While DRK was right that the math really wasn't applicable, I have a really hard time swallowing that scum had any incentive to try something like that. If Sakako-scum was going to argue against the monkey lynch for town cred I wouldn't see him throwing out number-based analysis, because that makes Sakako LESS RESPONSIBLE for the decision and thus gives him less town cred.

As for the others, I'm going off of the (hopefully) uncontroversial position that scum would like to get the JOAT lynched. Looking back, I think it's really more null for Espeon, for the same reason as Almaster - they both called it an fake claim from their first post after Monkey's JOAT claim and while that is something scum would say they could easily just as well be townies. As for Reck, while he gave it thought at first, he posted something akin to a case that I could see Reck town thinking without too much trouble.

The ones who come off as scummiest from this are Neto and Lowell. Neto started by holding to the standard line of thought that you don't lynch a PR D1 without good reason. But then, when it was revealed that the town was still happy with a Monkey lynch, suddenly Neto was as well. It was an awfully fast hop from hard-line 'it's silly to lynch a claimed PR d1' to 'you're obviously lying scum, Monkey.' This isn't to insult Reck, but I don't see his points being strong enough to incite that sort of hop.

Lowell I think gives me the worst vibes, though. He hops on, and off, and then on again while monkey is still a claimed JOAT .There's an FOS in there as well. He votes him right after his claim, unvotes (so clearly he's not 100% it's a fake claim), then FOS's and, presumably after no one rebuffed him for suspecting Monkey, votes AGAIN, all of which happens BEFORE Monkey points out he's a VT.

There's room for a townie to doubt a claim - you'd look like Almaster (who is still strongly on my town-list). While I don't think Almaster's actions on the Monkey wagon POINT to him as town (in the way Sakako's do), that's only because it's possible for a scum to replicate them. They are certainty what I'd expect from a townie who disbelieved Monkey's claim, and those actions are very remarkably different from what Lowell did.

Vote :Lowell

[Sakako]

Thanks for your completed analysis, hito.

Now for mine. I, too, have been busy settling into uni, sorry I haven't been here, but here are the main points I had with yesterday's lynch/other things happening. I'm sure most of them have been said before, but perhaps I can shed some new light on the situation. The people in the parentheses after the points are the people I'd like to comment on my points.

----------

#1. Kyle's hammer. (kyle99, xRECKONERx)
It came too quickly, this much is obvious. That's the problem I've got with this hammer, not the fact that he's the one who did it. I would have done it, too, had I not been on the Neto wagon at the time, and

waiting for more information from MM.

But Kyle still hasn't made any sort of rebuttal as to why he did this. The one time he's posted he completely ignored the topic, moving the discussion to some other wagon, trying to start one on xReck (who I think is town, by the way, either that or /very/ tricky scum.)

#2. Bob's complete ignorance. (almightybob, Nikanor)
Okay, yes, so he had some points against me at the end of Day 1. He then votes me, but doesn't make any sort of points against me (after that single post), instead choosing to attack Nikanor. This seems a bit pointless to me, for instance, if Bob thinks I'm scummy, then surely he should be attacking me? I have been away for a while, and that would have been more than enough time for a scum-Bob to say "omg Saka's dodging the question". But oh wait. He can't, because he already advocated policy lynching as bad form in iso 13. Does that mean he's town, and he's actually following through with his logic? Or is he frustrated scum trying to get a lynch off anyone who's active enough? I can't tell at this point.

---------

I'm sure I'm missing a couple of things here, but I'm going to

vote: kyle99

because I can't actually tell whether bob is acting scummy or not. More to come later, it's good to be back.

[almightybob]

The one time he's posted he completely ignored the topic, moving the discussion to some other wagon

Why did you not find Nikanor scummy for doing the exact same thing? Why did you not mention it at all when he did it?

#2. Bob's complete ignorance.

Nothing you point out shows ignorance of any sort. Ignorance of what?

He then votes me, but doesn't make any sort of points against me

This is your first post of D2. Any points I could have made against you were already made, at great length, by myself and others, in D1. What else could I have brought up that hadn't already been said? I see little value in repeating the points made against you on D1, when I could just say "see Day 1".

This seems a bit pointless to me, for instance, if Bob thinks I'm scummy, then surely he should be attacking me?

Again, all the attacking that could be done, had been done. And when I see something I don't like, from any player, I attack it. How is it a bad thing to pursue multiple routes?

I have been away for a while, and that would have been more than enough time for a scum-Bob to say "omg Saka's dodging the question". But oh wait. He can't, because he already advocated policy lynching as bad form in iso 13. Does that mean he's town, and he's actually following through with his logic? Or is he frustrated scum trying to get a lynch off anyone who's active enough? I can't tell at this point.

Pointless WIFOM. Although you are incorrect on one point - I never said policy lynching was bad form. If you'd kept up with my argument with Nikanor, you'd realise that.
I am in favour of Lynch All Liars, because there are far more scum motivations to lie than there are Town.
I consider Lynch All Lurkers to be a nulltell at best, because there's too many Town reasons to do it as well as the obvious scum motivation, and it's too easy to reasonably explain without possibility of proof (eg your unprovable but reasonable "I've been settling into uni" excuse).

I've said this before aimed at Nikanor, I really shouldn't have to explain it again.

[DeathRowKitty]

¡uʍoʇ oƃ ˙ɥɐq