Open 202 - Friends JK 9 (Game Over)

[semioldguy]

When I come to this thread, I am lonely.

@TDC
Why is Dry-Fit scum?

@don_johnson
Sleepless Assassin also seems to be missing. Why is his case the worst in your opinion? Please make comparisons to other bad cases to show why his is worse than other bad cases you see.

@Lowell
Whose vote is the worst right now and why does their vote stink? I feel there are several good candidates for the 'worst vote' award. Choose wisely.

@Dry-Fit
What about SerRose to you indicates that he is not a complete newbie. I disagree with your assertion and think that it is most likely for SerRose to be a complete newbie.

@wdjat
Why is focusing on single piece of bad logic scummier to you than Lowell's being all over the place? If anything, I find the tunneling on bad logic not to be a tell if the poster does not see the bad logic behind his line of inquiry and currently get a feeling of disinterested town from Sleepless Assassin.

@ConfidAnon
Is there anything from your predecessor that you are in agreement with?

@SerRose
Why did you assume that my initial vote on you was to get you lynched at all rather than to just participate? Are you going to do something or take a stance on your own without my having to ask you a question about it first? Also, if you change your avatar to something that doesn't have Mr. Bean on it, I will switch my vote to wdjat.

@Sleepless Assassin
I have a good town feeling about ConfidAnon and the player he replaced. If you had to make a second choice right now, who would it be?

I expect to have something better to read tomorrow at work than I did today.

[don_johnson]

@don_johnson
Sleepless Assassin also seems to be missing. Why is his case the worst in your opinion? Please make comparisons to other bad cases to show why his is worse than other bad cases you see.

odd. never said their were any "bad" cases. just that sleepless had the worst. worst olympian on the podium is still pretty good, so whatever. read into it what you like. he voted ness with weak reasoning. now he pushes suspicion on confid with weak reasoning. he's making the worst cases. of course, i do need to reread the last couple of pages, but noone else is sticking out to me yet.

122: semi was my random vote. had to unvote to drop my first serious one.

Any perticular reason you're directing power roles, DJ?

offering suggestions is far from "directing". i am confident that power roles can make up their own minds. i was more alluding to the fact that it is not in town's best interest to lynch a player who is ultimately null tell. null tell players are better targeted with night actions. doesn't make a difference what set-up you are in.

[semioldguy]

"Bad" is more of a relative term. There must be some hierarchy to the cases in the game. Maybe they are all excellent cases (I don't think they are necessarily so in this game), but some are always going to be worse than others.

If you don't think there are any truly bad cases in this game, pick another case that you feel is low on the relative hierarchy and explain why that case is better than Sleepless Assassin's. (Basically I'm asking for a comparison of any two cases as long as one of them is Sleepless Assassin's, pointing out what you like or don't like about the cases as to make a contrast to one another)

I'll of course allow for a re-read of the last several pages.

[don_johnson]

not really sure what you're asking here. you just double voted serrose. obviously, you think your case is good. i need to read it before i agree, but why do you need me to compare it to SA's vote if ytou are so sure of it that you double voted? do you think SA is playing well? i guess i just don't understand why you are defending him.

[semioldguy]

I am curious and just want to see your point of view/train of thought on the matter. I am neither defending him or attacking him as of this point. He is very middle of the road for me. There are players I find scummier, and there are players I find more likely to be town.

[Dry-fit]

@Dry-Fit
What about SerRose to you indicates that he is not a complete newbie. I disagree with your assertion and think that it is most likely for SerRose to be a complete newbie.

Well, mainly the fact that he signed up for an open in his first game and understood the queue system. Also reading his posts I just had the feeling he had played before. One way to find out.

@SerRose: What is your previous experience playing mafia, if any.

i was more alluding to the fact that it is not in town's best interest to lynch a player who is ultimately null tell. null tell players are better targeted with night actions.

What do you mean "null tell players?"

@Mod: Can we get prods on Sleepless Assassin and SerRose?

[don_johnson]

at the time SA voted, we were still in a seeming joke vote stage. there wasn't much going on. he switched his random vote to what i can only assume was a serious vote with poor(and piggybacked) reasoning. hence, at that time it was the "worst" case in my mind. it also seemed like joke vote # 2, which would be alright on page 1 or 2, but i believe he was attempting to leave the RVS which is what makes it a bad vote. until he returns and participates i see no reason to move my vote at this time.

dry-fit: null tell means you can't read a player. they appear as neither scum nor town.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Any thoughts on the read she had? I mean, there's nothing else to talk about in regards to nessarae56.

If you could lynch one person right now, who would it be and why?

I really don't understand her read. If I could lynch one person, it would be . . . Lowell, because of the following quoted post.

unvote

sorry wasn't paying attention, didn't realize that was L-1. Just felt like a good bandwagon.

Admittedly, this could easily be a simple mistake . . . but it's better than nothing.

Unvote, Vote: Lowell

This looks kind of like you are voting just because you were pressured to name a suspect.

That being said, if you are scum, Lowell is town.

unvote, vote: sleepless in seattle

Is this supposed to be me?

unvote, vote confid

Three reasons:
1) OMGUS
2) His passing mention of his predecessor's play is strange. It's like he wanted to cut off a potential liability (if there was one) before anyone could bring it up. His staged diplomacy in the process and in the post after is basically useless.
3) He's made an "anyone here?" post, but hasn't followed up with anything to get the game moving, other than a spiritless attack on someone (me), which he quickly caveats by saying it could be nothing. Kind of an... obvious thing to say. Like a cheap out to be used later on if needed.

2 seems to restate my point and I agree with 3.

Looking at the other folks in the game, I'm not too keen on the way Sleepless Assassin was leaning on ConfidAnon to speculate on nessarae56's alignment. Claiming this speculation wouldn't be awkward is pretty disingenuous. It wouldn't be hard to turn anything ConfidAnon said on the subject into a reason to vote for him. By this logic, Lowell's reason's for voting ConfidAnon aren't great either, but Lowell's been kinda all over the place.

Sleepless Assassin's focus on a single bad piece of logic is scummier to me.

vote: Sleepless Assassin

(Bolding mine) Actually, my initial suspicion came from Nessa, who Confid replaced. Confid just hasn't looked town enough for me to forget how scummy Nessa was and there's even some points against Confid himself.

@Sleepless Assassin
I have a good town feeling about ConfidAnon and the player he replaced. If you had to make a second choice right now, who would it be?

Probably TDC. I don't have more of a case than gut though. If we got a town flip from Confid, I'd say Lowell because he's scummy, but isn't Confid's scumbuddy. Maybe don too. Everyone else, I'm confident is town except maybe Dry-Fit who I have a town read on but that's kind of a weak read.

at the time SA voted, we were still in a seeming joke vote stage. there wasn't much going on. he switched his random vote to what i can only assume was a serious vote with poor(and piggybacked) reasoning.

When did I random vote?

Also, I disagree about my reasoning being weak. And I didn't piggyback anyone. I think for myself most of the time.

hence, at that time it was the "worst" case in my mind. it also seemed like joke vote # 2, which would be alright on page 1 or 2, but i believe he was attempting to leave the RVS which is what makes it a bad vote.

I never even made joke vote 1, so how could I make a second? And how can you call my vote on Nessa both a joke vote and a serious vote. It's one or the other. Either there is a reason for it (there was) or there isn't. You can't have both.

And what is wrong with leaving the RVS?

until he returns and participates i see no reason to move my vote at this time.

Hi.

[Meji Fan]

Sleepless Assassin just posted before I could prod, but SerRose is being prodded

[don_johnson]

That being said, if you are scum, Lowell is town.

^^ this is a horrendous false dichotomy. please explain.

unvote, vote confid

Three reasons:
1) OMGUS
2) His passing mention of his predecessor's play is strange. It's like he wanted to cut off a potential liability (if there was one) before anyone could bring it up. His staged diplomacy in the process and in the post after is basically useless.
3) He's made an "anyone here?" post, but hasn't followed up with anything to get the game moving, other than a spiritless attack on someone (me), which he quickly caveats by saying it could be nothing. Kind of an... obvious thing to say. Like a cheap out to be used later on if needed.

2 seems to restate my point and I agree with 3.

2 is null tell. it is in a townies best interest to separate themselves from their predecessors play if it is, in fact, questionable. nothing wrong with three. there is not much activity here, you say agree with a contradiction. "he hasn't followed up with anything". wrong. a spiritless attack is still something.

Actually, my initial suspicion came from Nessa, who Confid replaced. Confid just hasn't looked town enough for me to forget how scummy Nessa was and there's even some points against Confid himself.

a nice summary of the case would be helpful.

When did I random vote?

you voted lowell with no posted reasoning. never explained why you switched your vote off him and it occurred during the RVS. i consider that "random". not by the strict definition of the word, but i loathe semantics arguments. if it wasn't random/joke, then what was it?

Also, I disagree about my reasoning being weak. And I didn't piggyback anyone. I think for myself most of the time.

you capitalized on wdjat's pressure. hence, piggybacking. then you push suspicion at wdjat directly after lowell votes him in post 57/58.

I never even made joke vote 1, so how could I make a second? And how can you call my vote on Nessa both a joke vote and a serious vote. It's one or the other. Either there is a reason for it (there was) or there isn't. You can't have both.

i didn't call your nessa vote a joke vote. if it is a joke vote, please say so. if its not, then your reasoning is poor. again, how do you classify your first vote of the game? what caused you to unvote that player? please don't argue semantics of the words "joke" and "random".

And what is wrong with leaving the RVS?

nothing. is that what you were doing? if so, then you have to concede that your first vote was random/joke. so please, explain further.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: the semi quote is not semi. please attribute it to "sleepygaspasser".

[semioldguy]

Clearly. I'd probably be the last person in the game to say that.

[semioldguy]

@Sleepless Assassin
What about SerRose gives you a such a confident town read on him?

[Wdjat]

@wdjat
Why is focusing on single piece of bad logic scummier to you than Lowell's being all over the place? If anything, I find the tunneling on bad logic not to be a tell if the poster does not see the bad logic behind his line of inquiry and currently get a feeling of disinterested town from Sleepless Assassin.

Part of the Sleepless Assassin over Lowell vote has to do with the context of Lowell's play and what other people have said about him. His posting style is consistent with someone who doesn't post often enough and doesn't read closely enough when he does post, so him being all over the place means less to me coming from him.

Sleepless Assassin's line of questioning to ConfidAnon looks like he's just trying to turn nessarae56's confused posts into a scum read on ConfidAnon so he has an excuse to lynch him. By trying to force ConfidAnon into making that read, he setting himself up to avoid responsibility if ConfidAnon turns up town. I agree that flawed logic isn't a scumtell by itself, but this post where he responds to that flaw being pointed out with more pressure pushes my read from stupid to scummy.

[Wdjat]

Looking at the other folks in the game, I'm not too keen on the way Sleepless Assassin was leaning on ConfidAnon to speculate on nessarae56's alignment. Claiming this speculation wouldn't be awkward is pretty disingenuous. It wouldn't be hard to turn anything ConfidAnon said on the subject into a reason to vote for him. By this logic, Lowell's reason's for voting ConfidAnon aren't great either, but Lowell's been kinda all over the place.

Sleepless Assassin's focus on a single bad piece of logic is scummier to me.

vote: Sleepless Assassin

(Bolding mine) Actually, my initial suspicion came from Nessa, who Confid replaced. Confid just hasn't looked town enough for me to forget how scummy Nessa was and there's even some points against Confid himself.

Given your suspicion of nessarae56, what did you hope to gain by having ConidAnon speculate on the scumminess of nessarae56's play?

[Meji Fan]

SerRose has picked up his prod so we should expect his appearance

[SerRose]

I'll be posting a bit later.

[SerRose]

unvote

@semi

No, I cannot be sure of your intention, whether to get me lynched or prodding me towards participation. But what you've done is a viable strategy for Mafias. Pointing to an inactive player puting everyone's focus on him. Even if I died and turned townie nobody else would suspect you solely because of this incident. This way, the Mafia can avoid lynching and suspicion going into the first night phase.

Even so, suspecting you because of the above reason is still nothing but speculation and you have a very good point that me being inactive is anti-town. I concede that my reasoning for voting you is weak and in fact, your hand in the generation of activities this game is a good reason not to vote for you.

@dry-fit

Previous experience: 10+ times during various occasions, with friends sitting in a circle. No experience in forum game

To confid:

What is your read on Lowell after his post against you?

[SerRose]

Also, if you change your avatar to something that doesn't have Mr. Bean on it, I will switch my vote to wdjat.

Really?

[SerRose]

And yes, I had not submitted my views, who's suspicious and who's not, yet.

Tomorrow or the day after.

[Dry-fit]

Wdjat is currently the next best lynch after SerRose in my opinion.

Care to elaborate on this now?

dry-fit: null tell means you can't read a player. they appear as neither scum nor town.

That's what I thought. Just because you aren't able to read him, why does that make you think the rest of us can't?

[TDC]

@TDC
Why is Dry-Fit scum?

Is he?
Or is that just a cheap shot at my still active random vote?

Anyway,

unvote

.

Well, mainly the fact that he signed up for an open in his first game and understood the queue system.

I don't know. I think if he understood the queue system he would've signed up for a newbie game..

This looks kind of like you are voting just because you were pressured to name a suspect.

I could see where you're coming from if you could show how that vote is bad.
I mean if it's a good vote, then it could just be a good vote that would've come anyway.
I can totally see how Lowell would make that mistake, but I don't think it's that outrageous to vote him for it as you would imply.

That being said, if you are scum, Lowell is town.

^^ this is a horrendous false dichotomy. please explain.

Obviously, scum would never vote their buddies. Didn't you know?

Sleepless Assassin's line of questioning to ConfidAnon looks like he's just trying to turn nessarae56's confused posts into a scum read on ConfidAnon so he has an excuse to lynch him. By trying to force ConfidAnon into making that read, he setting himself up to avoid responsibility if ConfidAnon turns up town. I agree that flawed logic isn't a scumtell by itself, but this post where he responds to that flaw being pointed out with more pressure pushes my read from stupid to scummy.

I would probably have made that post had it not already been there. CA's awkwardness towards his former self was certainly good enough to poke into at that early point.

[TDC]

I take that back, seeing how I did actually post in between, it struck me as odd anyway :p

[Sleepless Assassin]

That being said, if you are scum, Lowell is town.

^^ this is a horrendous false dichotomy. please explain.

Well, it looked like scum trying to find somewhere to put a vote. I was thinking that he'd only do it on town, but looking at how weak of a vote it is, it doesn't put much pressure on Lowell or make him more likely of a lynch, so I think I was a little quick to judge that.

unvote, vote confid

Three reasons:
1) OMGUS
2) His passing mention of his predecessor's play is strange. It's like he wanted to cut off a potential liability (if there was one) before anyone could bring it up. His staged diplomacy in the process and in the post after is basically useless.
3) He's made an "anyone here?" post, but hasn't followed up with anything to get the game moving, other than a spiritless attack on someone (me), which he quickly caveats by saying it could be nothing. Kind of an... obvious thing to say. Like a cheap out to be used later on if needed.

2 seems to restate my point and I agree with 3.

2 is null tell. it is in a townies best interest to separate themselves from their predecessors play if it is, in fact, questionable. nothing wrong with three. there is not much activity here, you say agree with a contradiction. "he hasn't followed up with anything". wrong. a spiritless attack is still something.

I disagree. No, I wouldn't go back and say "this is scummy" or "this isn't" about a player who I am replacing, but I don't think I'd feel "awkward" or nervous about it, which is what I see from Confid. I'd at least be willing to look and see why people see what they do. I've never replaced anyone in a game, so maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but that just looks scummy to me and I suspected the player he replaced anyway.

Actually, my initial suspicion came from Nessa, who Confid replaced. Confid just hasn't looked town enough for me to forget how scummy Nessa was and there's even some points against Confid himself.

a nice summary of the case would be helpful.

The way she came into the game didn't read as "who looks scummy and who doesn't?". It was more "who looks like an easy target". I know she didn't directly vote someone for being an easy target, but the fact that what she talked about was easy targets rubs me the wrong way. Then she left this game about as fast as a white boy's bike leaves the Bronx at night.

When did I random vote?

you voted lowell with no posted reasoning. never explained why you switched your vote off him and it occurred during the RVS. i consider that "random". not by the strict definition of the word, but i loathe semantics arguments. if it wasn't random/joke, then what was it?

His "unlynchable" comment was something I didn't like. I asked if TDC was his scumbuddy because of the joke-vote, quick change, and mention of an anti-town meta which actually protects him in a way because more things can be written off as "anti-town" or "oh, Lowell always does this".

Also, I disagree about my reasoning being weak. And I didn't piggyback anyone. I think for myself most of the time.

you capitalized on wdjat's pressure. hence, piggybacking. then you push suspicion at wdjat directly after lowell votes him in post 57/58.

Post 35, Nessa catches my attention. I see it as scummy, but wait for an explanation before acting.

Post 36, she responds scummily to my question.

Post 37, wdjat starts to question Nessa.

Post 39, I vote Nessa and ask Wdjat if he has scumbuddies.

Nessa is scummy in 46/47 and needs to die.

53 is where Wdjat really adds pressure. By this point, I've already started to question Nessa and voted her.

So did my case on Nessa benefit from Wdjat's pressure? Probably. Did I only vote Nessa because of it? No. Nessa was scummy, so I voted. Wdjat must have seen the same thing as I did, which is not uncommon.

And I didn't point suspicion at Wdjat in Post 58. I said that his way of thinking is wrong, also not uncommon for townies. I think Wdjat is town, so saying that I've pointed suspicion at him is either misinterpretation or a misrep. Lucky for you, I think you just misunderstood me.

I never even made joke vote 1, so how could I make a second? And how can you call my vote on Nessa both a joke vote and a serious vote. It's one or the other. Either there is a reason for it (there was) or there isn't. You can't have both.

i didn't call your nessa vote a joke vote. if it is a joke vote, please say so. if its not, then your reasoning is poor. again, how do you classify your first vote of the game? what caused you to unvote that player? please don't argue semantics of the words "joke" and "random".

My first vote was a serious vote, although I admit I didn't have much on Lowell. I unvoted because there was a stronger vote to be made.

Trust me, I'll be the LAST person to try arguing semantics with you.

And what is wrong with leaving the RVS?

nothing. is that what you were doing? if so, then you have to concede that your first vote was random/joke. so please, explain further.

No, I didn't jokevote. But I don't like the RVS, which is what I was saying.

ebwop: the semi quote is not semi. please attribute it to "sleepygaspasser".

Gotcha.

@Sleepless Assassin
What about SerRose gives you a such a confident town read on him?

He reads as a confused newbie trying to help the town, but unfortunately failing miserably.

Sleepless Assassin's line of questioning to ConfidAnon looks like he's just trying to turn nessarae56's confused posts into a scum read on ConfidAnon so he has an excuse to lynch him.

Oh, no, confusion isn't the case on Nessa at all. Read up in this post and maybe you'll see what I was looking at.

And if you want to call scummy actions excuses, then yes, I'll find excuses to lynch anyone who is scummy.

By trying to force ConfidAnon into making that read, he setting himself up to avoid responsibility if ConfidAnon turns up town.

He doesn't have to make the read, but just being able to look at her posts and give us an opinion of her play shouldn't be that hard.

I agree that flawed logic isn't a scumtell by itself, but this post where he responds to that flaw being pointed out with more pressure pushes my read from stupid to scummy.

I don't think my logic is flawed at all.

Given your suspicion of nessarae56, what did you hope to gain by having ConidAnon speculate on the scumminess of nessarae56's play?

Nothing. I didn't ask him to. Someone else did and his response caught my eye.

I could see where you're coming from if you could show how that vote is bad.
I mean if it's a good vote, then it could just be a good vote that would've come anyway.
I can totally see how Lowell would make that mistake, but I don't think it's that outrageous to vote him for it as you would imply.

It's not even about the quality of the vote. It's the fact that he was JUST pressured to actually add something useful to the game and, like magic, pulls a little baby rabbit out of a hat with a vote on Lowell. And who knows, maybe it'll grow up to be the Easter Bunny and Lowell will be scum, but it just looked like a way to make himself look better.

[Sleepless Assassin]

By the way, I'm kind of second guessing my town read on SerRose.