Mini 896 - Jekyll Mafia - Game Over

[MacavityLock]

Why are they bad reasons? If you think so, why didn't you point them out at the time?

Well, there's this. Instead of explaining why your reasons weren't baseless, you just ask why they're bad.

Don't I need to know why he thinks they're bad before I can respond? My attacks weren't baseless, as I provided the reasons for my case in 376. Stating my arguments again would have been redundant.

You misunderstand me. The SK scenario is far more likely to screw over the town, than it is the mafia. You're worried about SK completely screwing over the town, and you point out how it could be an autoloss... But you ignore how peanut reacts after the initial accusation, and simply insist that Peanut's play just seems protown to you, and you're willing to let him live simply because of that.

Again, I'll say that peanut's play seems more consistent with being a PGO than a SK. And given the way I've been reading him and this game, I'm not interested in his lynch. If someone did manage to convince me that he is SK, my vote would be on him immediately. What's the problem here?

[Nachomamma8]

What's the problem here?

There is a strong possibility that he is the SK, and you believe that him being an SK could screw over the town. Yet, you are still confident in putting your vote somewhere else.

[MacavityLock]

What's the problem here?

There is a strong possibility that he is the SK, and you believe that him being an SK could screw over the town. Yet, you are still confident in putting your vote somewhere else.

Because I don't agree with you that there's a strong possibility that he's SK.

[Nachomamma8]

Because I don't agree with you that there's a strong possibility that he's SK.

But there's still a chance. And you're basing what you feel could be the game on "he's been playing like a PGO all game".

[MacavityLock]

No one has made a SK case on peanut. You and GC have said "Hey look, that's SK-like" and not said why. Not only that, but there clearly aren't the votes to lynch him. I don't think peanut is SK, and no one else who does cares enough to do anything about it. What else would you expect me to do?

And again, why does any of this make me scummy?

[MacavityLock]

You know what?

Vote: Nacho

for glomming on to a crappy case with even crappier reasons.

I'm still going to try to get a read of GC in, but my gut is that he's misguided town here.

[peanutman]

So, GreenCrayons, I decided to look at your interactions with Ectomancer/WRH. Didn't seem fair that you were omitted from this. I have listed all the interactions between you both (or three I guess).

Most of the mentions of each other are one-liners in support of the other.

· I like Ecto's post 104. Suave's 109 doesn't do much to impress me.

I like Green Crayons first paragraph.

Hmmm GC makes some good points there.

This is WRH's catch-up post, basically saying nothing of Green Crayons. Never follows up on this or encourages him to post more.

Green Crayons: Hard to tell. It seems like he is scum hunting, but has had too few posts or at least posts with real content.

This post was on Dec 30th. By that time, Green Crayons only had 8 posts. He was interested enough to look into Phantom and unity, but wasn't concerned about any other lurkers/non-posters.

"Kikuchiyo wrote: Both PHANTOM and UNITY have six posts in eight pages. Both are on the 5cvm wagon, and both have pretty much only been involved in that one particular discussion, not really adding much to it themselves."

That's a good point Kik, wonder if I missed something on these two during my read.

Green Crayons next post, he jumped on the 5cvm-wagon as well. Of course, WRN never looked into any of these people.

And that is it. In about 20 pages, they both mentioned each other only 4 times, and never in an attempt to draw attention to the other.

So, I am still comfortable with my vote on Green Crayons.

[Pulindar]

The SK scenario is far more likely to screw over the town, than it is the mafia.

A vig is town aligned and has incentive to do what the town needs, which includes not killing when the additional kill is bad for the town. A SK does what will help the SK win, nothing more. A SK is a ton more dangerous than a vig.

I don't see why an SK is any more likely to screw over town than Mafia. If an SK kills off mafia first, while mafia kills off town, and town kills off town, then the SK can try to balance it all out and win. If they all team up on town SK looses anyways.

Vigs and SKs both want to kill off mafia. SKs just want to kill off town later as well. In addition we already know that if peanut is an SK he can choose not to kill, which means that it's all good.

Also, look at it this way. Our Vig, Raider, Killed a townie, HH
Peanut (SK or not) killed a Scum, Wolf.

SK is only mroe dangerous in the end game.


Also I think the chances of him being NK immune are about 50/50. I wouldn't want to speculate either way. Normally I would guess not, but it is a possibility.


@Nacho, it does feel like you're taking advantage of the situation with your votes, but it could be due to the close deadline.

@peanut, interesting find with GC. I guess they could have been trying to keep their distance for a reason....

[Budja]

Votecount

2 - MacavityLock: (Green Crayons, Nachomamma8)
1 - GreenCrayons: (peanutman)
1 - Pulindar: (Slaxx)
1 - Nachomamma8: (MacavityLock)

Not Voting: Pulindar, Gerhard Krause,

With

7

alive it will take

4

to lynch.

Deadline: 10pm, 20th February AEST (36hrs FYI)

Prodding GC.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho, it does feel like you're taking advantage of the situation with your votes, but it could be due to the close deadline.

Honestly? I have no idea who the mafia right now is. And my gut's telling me that with the way that Green Crayons and MaccavityLock are fighting, that one of them is scum. The only bad inkling I got from GC was his recent disappearence of activity, and I don't like MaccavityLock's whole opinion on the SK issue, but I'd rather talk about that tomorrow than today. And since ML is calling my case on him crap, I suppose I might as well post something real...

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, if we lynch peanut and there are 2 maf remaining, we will likely be in LYLO.

This. If you have 2 townies, 2 mafias, and 1 SK, that is not LyLo. If the town no lynches, SK can hit a mafia member and the mafia member can hit the SK, and that leaves 2 town - 1 mafia LyLo. If the town lynches a mafia and the SK kills the other Mafia and the mafia NKs a the SK OR a townie, the game continues, etc.

376 was my first post of the game, and I had been working on it over the night as I replaced in. The fact that wnh "called me out" has nothing to do with why I posted it. If you see a connection there, that's your read, and you have every right to make that case. But I know that there's no connection, because I'm town.

This isn't actually a response, or a defense. The point is, in 376 and 377, you had a weak back and forth that neither of you bothered following up on. You're "I know there's no connection because I'm town" isn't even a valid defense; anyone can say they're town, but that doesn't give us any reason to believe it.

He's specifically asking people to end the day, when you had suggested that you wanted to put some analysis in. I read that as him being afraid of what your analysis might show.

There's this suspicion you have on Gerhard because he wanted to end the game early. You fail to acknowledge that his cop claim kinda explains that.

You're calling me out for the use of the word "obvious"?

Hypocrisy is a great way to find scum. I'm pretty sure it was you who made the case that Gerhard was scum because he knew MrSuave was town based on his wording...

The whole "No Result" thing is also quite stupid. You tried to get yourself cleared by saying that No Result = innocent, and even you have to admit that's one hell of a stretch.

[MacavityLock]

376 was my first post of the game, and I had been working on it over the night as I replaced in. The fact that wnh "called me out" has nothing to do with why I posted it. If you see a connection there, that's your read, and you have every right to make that case. But I know that there's no connection, because I'm town.

This isn't actually a response, or a defense. The point is, in 376 and 377, you had a weak back and forth that neither of you bothered following up on. You're "I know there's no connection because I'm town" isn't even a valid defense; anyone can say they're town, but that doesn't give us any reason to believe it.

I have no control over what wnh posted. I posted my intro post 376. And that's all I did.

The only thing I picked up from wnh on my initial read was the policy lynch talk. As peanutman pointed out in 378, everyone had policy lynch talk, a bunch of which I missed on my first read. Given that, I didn't follow up on

any

of the policy lynch stuff.

If you don't think that's a response or a defense, it's because you're expecting me to explain wnh's posts, which is impossible.

He's specifically asking people to end the day, when you had suggested that you wanted to put some analysis in. I read that as him being afraid of what your analysis might show.

There's this suspicion you have on Gerhard because he wanted to end the game early. You fail to acknowledge that his cop claim kinda explains that.

Why would a cop claim have anything to do with this? Ending the day early doesn't mean that his investigation (if he has one) will be any more effective. GC's promised analysis post would if anything only give

more

info on who he should choose to investigate. This argument makes no sense.

You're calling me out for the use of the word "obvious"?

Hypocrisy is a great way to find scum. I'm pretty sure it was you who made the case that Gerhard was scum because he knew MrSuave was town based on his wording...

Strawman.

How does using the word "obvious" make me scum?

The whole "No Result" thing is also quite stupid. You tried to get yourself cleared by saying that No Result = innocent, and even you have to admit that's one hell of a stretch.

No matter if it's a stretch or not, it costs nothing and possibly gains the entire town a cleared townie. This is beneficial to the entire town. How does trying to clear myself make me scum?

More people need to vote Nacho now. His entire post is scummy, illogical, and wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

And that's all I did.

...and that's the problem. You never followed up with any interaction with wnh at all. Also, you're defending against connections by saying "I can't explain his posts", although it was you who brought up the suggestion in the first place...

Ending the day early doesn't mean that his investigation (if he has one) will be any more effective.

He's a cop. He has a night action. He has a theory on who is scum. He wants the day to end early to see if his theory is right.

How does using the word "obvious" make me scum?

Pointing out hypocrisy is not strawmanning... And it's not the fact that you're using the word obvious, it's the fact that you're calling Green Crayons's argument stupid when you youself used the same argument against GK earlier.

No matter if it's a stretch or not, it costs nothing and possibly gains the entire town a cleared townie. This is beneficial to the entire town. How does trying to clear myself make me scum?

Well, if those were truly your noble purposes, you would've asked the mod. Scum want to look as townie as possible. So it makes more sense for scum to try to ask GK, "hey, have you ever thought that No Result = Innocent" than it does for town to.

More people need to vote Nacho now.

Heh, I don't mind if I get lynched today. After all, if I get lynched and flip town, guess what scum will get lynched tomorrow?

[Green Crayons]

Prodding GC.

Excessive mod force! I'm calling the ACLU of mafia games. (Pick on GK and Slaxx if you want to get players who aren't contributing. )


-----

And that is it. In about 20 pages, they both mentioned each other only 4 times, and never in an attempt to draw attention to the other.

I did a quick skim of my own posts. I acted in a similar manner towards xvart (town), Hacker Huck (town), Phantom (who I'm now calling scum) and Nacho (who I'm now calling town). Your observation would be more telling if it wasn't how I was acting towards just about everyone.

So, I am still comfortable with my vote on Green Crayons.

Oh, yeah. Your earlier issues: When I said "Let's assume you're town, who are the scumbags" (paraphrasing this post), I wanted to know your opinion as to who you thought was scummy in the event that you are actually town. The fact that you thought I was suggesting you automatically knew for a 100% fact who scum was is a bit suspicious. That would be an incredibly stupid conclusion for me to make. I may be many things, but I certainly am not stupid.

Freudian

Scumslip on your behalf? The fact that you actually restate that I somehow think that you magically know who the scum are is really ridiculous.

Additionally, your attacking me in Post 518 for asking another player (who I just so happen to believe is scummy) his reasoning for their perception is duly noted.

peanut, your vote is a trumped up OMGUS. Feel free to continue to masquerade it as something more, it'll only add more fuel to the fire of my suspicions that you're not aligned with the Institute.


-----


Nacho, ML, GK = what are your opinions on Slaxx?

(ML, I'll respond to your points when I have more time; I'm willing to let the back and forth stand on its own merits for the time being.)

[MacavityLock]

And that's all I did.

...and that's the problem. You never followed up with any interaction with wnh at all. Also, you're defending against connections by saying "I can't explain his posts", although it was you who brought up the suggestion in the first place...

Go back and look at who interacted with wnh. It's approximately no one. The fact that you're singling me out is crap.

Ending the day early doesn't mean that his investigation (if he has one) will be any more effective.

He's a cop. He has a night action. He has a theory on who is scum. He wants the day to end early to see if his theory is right.

This is dumb.

How does using the word "obvious" make me scum?

Pointing out hypocrisy is not strawmanning... And it's not the fact that you're using the word obvious, it's the fact that you're calling Green Crayons's argument stupid when you youself used the same argument against GK earlier.

Not at all the same argument. What about using the word "obvious" in the manner that I did makes me scummy?

No matter if it's a stretch or not, it costs nothing and possibly gains the entire town a cleared townie. This is beneficial to the entire town. How does trying to clear myself make me scum?

Well, if those were truly your noble purposes, you would've asked the mod. Scum want to look as townie as possible. So it makes more sense for scum to try to ask GK, "hey, have you ever thought that No Result = Innocent" than it does for town to.

Why would I ask the mod, when I don't even know if Gerhard is a cop or not? It's not my job to figure that out, it's Gerhard's. Also, why shouldn't a townie want to look as townie as possible?

More people need to vote Nacho now.

Heh, I don't mind if I get lynched today. After all, if I get lynched and flip town, guess what scum will get lynched tomorrow?

Good, let's lynch Nacho-scum then, and we'll figure out a 3rd scum tomorrow. (See how I flipped it?)

[Budja]

Prodding GC.

Excessive mod force! I'm calling the ACLU of mafia games. (Pick on GK and Slaxx if you want to get players who aren't contributing. )

I meant GK . You are nice and active.

[MacavityLock]

Didn't see GC's post before I posted.

Slaxx has kind of slipped under the radar for me. I don't like his Pulindar vote, but other than that, he seems reasonable. Pretty darn neutral in my book.

Has any of the recent back and forth changed your opinion of Nacho?

[Nachomamma8]

Go back and look at who interacted with wnh. It's approximately no one. The fact that you're singling me out is crap.

Lesse... Wolf attacked kikuchiyo, he followed up on those attacks. Wolf attacked HackerHuck, he followed up on those attacks. Wolf attacked you... nope, no follow up.

This is dumb.

Beautiful response. Why is it dumb, though?

Not at all the same argument. What about using the word "obvious" in the manner that I did makes me scummy?

You: "GK, your wording was scummy."
GC: "ML, your wording was scummy."
You: "That's a crap argumment, GC..."

If you'd like me to explain past the basics, I gladly will.

Why would I ask the mod, when I don't even know if Gerhard is a cop or not? It's not my job to figure that out, it's Gerhard's. Also, why shouldn't a townie want to look as townie as possible?

Umm... you could just ask the mod "Hey, if a cop investigates someone, does 'No Result' = Innocent?". And if it was Gerhard's job to figure out his investigation results, then why did you bring it up in the first place?

Townies shouldn't worry about looking town; they should focus on scumhunting.

Nacho, ML, GK = what are your opinions on Slaxx?

I don't like when he attacks for inactivity, at all. He also doesn't post a whole lot, and he hasn't been scumhunting based on scummy things; only based on inactivity. He's talked more about peanut than he has about his top reads lately, and I don't like that either. All in all, probably our second scum after Maccavity.

[MacavityLock]

Go back and look at who interacted with wnh. It's approximately no one. The fact that you're singling me out is crap.

Lesse... Wolf attacked kikuchiyo, he followed up on those attacks. Wolf attacked HackerHuck, he followed up on those attacks. Wolf attacked you... nope, no follow up.

And I can't answer for what wnh did. If that's your argument, fine. But I can't defend it, and if you expect me to, you're expecting the impossible.

This is dumb.

Beautiful response. Why is it dumb, though?

I already told you why. There was no reason Gerhard had to rush to make his investigation. Waiting costs him nothing.

Not at all the same argument. What about using the word "obvious" in the manner that I did makes me scummy?

You: "GK, your wording was scummy."
GC: "ML, your wording was scummy."
You: "That's a crap argumment, GC..."

If you'd like me to explain past the basics, I gladly will.

The wording Gerhard used suggested that he knew that Suave was town. I pointed out the wording and explained why I thought he was scummy because of it. The wording I used tells you what exactly? "Wording" isn't an argument, it's a wrapper for an argument.

Why would I ask the mod, when I don't even know if Gerhard is a cop or not? It's not my job to figure that out, it's Gerhard's. Also, why shouldn't a townie want to look as townie as possible?

Umm... you could just ask the mod "Hey, if a cop investigates someone, does 'No Result' = Innocent?". And if it was Gerhard's job to figure out his investigation results, then why did you bring it up in the first place?

Again, not my job. Why would I ask the mod that? Usually in these situations, a mod won't answer questions about other potential roles in the game, only your own role.

And I already answered why I brought it up: If it cleared me, that's good for town.

Townies shouldn't worry about looking town; they should focus on scumhunting.

Focus on scumhunting, sure. But townies shouldn't worry about looking town? That's important to preventing mislynches. It may not be at the top, but it's a priority.

[Nachomamma8]

But I can't defend it, and if you expect me to, you're expecting the impossible.

You can explain why you didn't follow up, for a start.

I already told you why. There was no reason Gerhard had to rush to make his investigation. Waiting costs him nothing.

It costs him nothing but patience, which might be something he doesn't have a whole lot of. And impatience alone is not a scumtell.

The wording I used tells you what exactly?

By saying you wanted to make sure that he wasn't missing the obvious, you were using it as an anaphor to "No Result = Innocent", which is a bit of a stretch no matter which way you look at it.

Again, not my job. Why would I ask the mod that? Usually in these situations, a mod won't answer questions about other potential roles in the game, only your own role.

Not always. In asking the mod, you could actually clear yourself as opposed to just confusing GK.

Focus on scumhunting, sure. But townies shouldn't worry about looking town? That's important to preventing mislynches. It may not be at the top, but it's a priority.

No, not at all. You prevent mislynches by defending yourself the best you can, and trying to find who the true scum is. And if you are lynched, all of your scumhunting is made valid, and people know that none of it were lies. So, they can take a closer look at it and use it to help them find the real scum.

[MacavityLock]

But I can't defend it, and if you expect me to, you're expecting the impossible.

You can explain why you didn't follow up, for a start.

Hey look I already did that.

The only thing I picked up from wnh on my initial read was the policy lynch talk. As peanutman pointed out in 378, everyone had policy lynch talk, a bunch of which I missed on my first read. Given that, I didn't follow up on

any

of the policy lynch stuff.

Are you even reading my responses?

I already told you why. There was no reason Gerhard had to rush to make his investigation. Waiting costs him nothing.

It costs him nothing but patience, which might be something he doesn't have a whole lot of. And impatience alone is not a scumtell.

But ending the day early, without waiting for what could be good analysis is. Are you saying that I should have taken what Gerhard did in it's towniest possible light? If I do that, would I I even be scumhunting anymore?

The wording I used tells you what exactly?

By saying you wanted to make sure that he wasn't missing the obvious, you were using it as an anaphor to "No Result = Innocent", which is a bit of a stretch no matter which way you look at it.

So what if it's a stretch? The risk (i.e. nothing) is rather overshadowed by the reward (i.e. cleared townie). And you still haven't answered why it's scummy. By the way, what does "anaphor" mean?

In asking the mod, you could actually clear yourself as opposed to just confusing GK.

So, now I'd be confusing Gerhard? You're really trying to find something scummy about this, but can't. This is getting hilarious.

No, not at all. You prevent mislynches by defending yourself the best you can, and trying to find who the true scum is. And if you are lynched, all of your scumhunting is made valid, and people know that none of it were lies. So, they can take a closer look at it and use it to help them find the real scum.

And if I get cleared immediately, then people know that my scumhunting is good and legitimate right away, and can act on it while I'm still alive, and don't need a dead townie to do so.

[Green Crayons]

Has any of the recent back and forth changed your opinion of Nacho?

He's taken my original points against you to what he believes to be their logical conclusion. If I am to assume my points against you to be valid and you to be scum then the only suspicious aspect of his behavior is that he's buddying up with me to distance himself with you. If I am to assume that I am incorrect and my points against you are worthless and you are town then the only suspicious aspect of his behavior is that he's buddying up with me to use my incorrect suspicions to provide a cover for his attack on town.

His action here seems to mimic his behavior earlier in the game when he took Ecto's arguments against GK and ran with them while Ecto sort of held back. The parallel between the two situations is actually kind of eerie - and I don't like the fact that I'm in the same "role" as Ecto (my "holding back" isn't voluntary, I'll note, and I at least provided follow up for my legitimate criticisms so it really isn't as egregious as Ecto's). The fact that I myself know that Ecto and I are not of the same alignment does little to allay suspicions for everyone else, but this just seems to be how Nacho plays. You can assume he's being the attack dog for scum or he just latches on to suspicions/arguments he agrees with - take your pick. Personally, I don't believe it indicates an inherent scum vibe.

Slaxx

: Do you agree with your predecessor's claim in Post 138 that, " I clarified unambiguously that nachomamma was not mentioned in my role PM and that I think he's town. ... Although, if it ever comes time for me to claim,

you will see that my randomgambitclaim was inspired by my real role

. "

Mod

: Would it be selfish of

me

the town to request an extension of some sort? I know that we had an extra long day due to absences that was squandered during that extra time, but... Uh. Please? I think the pick up in activity is an indicator that we will actually use it.

[MacavityLock]

He's taken my original points against you to what he believes to be their logical conclusion.

So, you don't think the fact that his arguments are so obviously wrong and scummy is a reason to think that the following might be more likely?

If I am to assume that I am incorrect and my points against you are worthless and you are town then the only suspicious aspect of his behavior is that he's buddying up with me to use my incorrect suspicions to provide a cover for his attack on town.

Mod

: Would it be selfish of

me

the town to request an extension of some sort? I know that we had an extra long day due to absences that was squandered during that extra time, but... Uh. Please? I think the pick up in activity is an indicator that we will actually use it.

I'm for this. The deadline's coming up in <12 hours now at this point, right?

[Green Crayons]

So, you don't think the fact that his arguments are so obviously wrong and scummy is a reason to think that the following might be more likely?

This question makes an underlying assumption in order to give the suspicions pertaining to that scenario any weight: That Nacho's arguments are obviously wrong and scummy. The past two pages or so represent why you think his arguments are wrong - so I see no need for you to go into that any further - but you have not qualified how they are scummy.

Simply being wrong doesn't make a player scummy. Simply being wrong about you - if we are to assume you are town - doesn't make a player scummy, either. Please explain how his incorrect arguments are scummy and we should, therefore, view him with suspicion.



I want Slaxx to answer my question.

[Slaxx]

Nobody was mentioned in my role PM.

I can't Follow 5cvm's logic as to why he would say that.