mykonian (3) - Mindgamer, DiscoRoboto, XScorpion
kyle99 (1) - Looker
Looker (1) - SaintKerrigan
XScorpion (1) - mykonian
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
because it isn't...XScorpion wrote:Because the reasons behind why your plan is horrible have already been given. Mindgamer said it best: assuming you are scum, your plan was to construct the circle yourself, organize it so that scum will be next to each other, then watch as 3 doctors get killed tonight.Mykonian wrote:Because you avoid all discussion about why the plan is actually scummy, and just go with general consensus and conspiracy thinking.
If "not using night powers" was such a good strategy, why didn't you suggest it first?
In your post, you say you can't help your vote, because you had such a bad experience with scum in a recent game. Why that excuse?I don't understand what this means:Mykonian wrote:Now, why are you excusing yourself for something that seems wrong, but you just can´t help it?
[/quote]xscorpion wrote:On a side note, I don't think I've heard anything scummier than this yet:This just screams scum to me.Mykonian wrote:Well, it seems like our night strategy will be more important than our day discussion.
yes, well that part annoyed me. Everyone can show bad points. However, it is to be asked if they can be improved. In a few minutes, I'll give that a try, but it is so easy to discredit someone who takes initiative this way.DiscoRoboto wrote:That'sirrelevent, he obviously didn't suggest a plan, but we don't have to divert attention to that right now.
and who tells me you aren't scum? I have the mod telling me I'm town, and I rather don't let scum manipulate this.Well,we all know that of ourselves. Why you? Scroll down to see a suggestion.
Because you aren't cleared town in our eyes.myko wrote:and why is it suspect to propose to make that circle yourself? Because town wants control so scum won't manipulate it?
Starting point of my thinking:Light wrote:look, i believe that some of myko's strat is relevant, however it is somewhat flawed.
we definitely need a testing strat to test our doctor skills. I'd do the circle strat only if everyone else agrees to it, otherwise we could do a 'better variation of the idea'.
Think about it. The scum have a guaranteed nightkill with the original circle plan by killing off one of the people they're supposed to be "protecting." The only way town gets a night scumkill is through one of our two killing roles getting lined up one at least one of the scum. The odds of both of our killing roles hitting both scum is nigh impossible. The odds of hitting just one isn't that much likelier. The odds of killing off an innocent are good. Meanwhile, the scum have a guaranteed nightkill. This is why I disagree with your plan.SaintKerrigan wrote:There is a much better chance of scum winning with this plan than town; it's far more likely that the doctor kills will land on innocents
Actually, I don't know what I was thinking here. This is more or less a null-tell, since we don't know that you are town or scum, and both factions would have a reason for wanting to set up your "circle."SaintKerrigan wrote:His proposal to set up the circle himself is also suspect.
I hate this argument.SaintKerrigan wrote:However, the plan may not be all that great, but I'm not sure that he's scum simply for suggesting it. It's too bold a move, and I don't think scum would want to go and suggest a plan like that.
How so? Although I'm very sure Mykonian is scum, putting someone at L-1 after almost no discussion is madness. For this reason he FoS'd. Why do you not like this?Looker wrote:- I don't like how you publicly express your ability to refrain from placing Mykonian at L-1
This implies that we're voting for Mykonian because he's stupid. No, we're voting for him because he's scummy. Quite the Strawman argument you make here.Looker wrote:To be honest, I'm not going to vote Mykonian based on the ramifications of his plan, probably because I wasn't going to follow it anyway. I'm not going to vote him based on his competence or lack thereof as a player.
Why? Do you think you would make a great leader for this game?Looker wrote:I still don't like the thought of a "Town Leader", though, unless, of course, that Leader is me. Otherwise it's not worth the risk.
You failed to mention they could kill.mykonian wrote:Where did I say mafia couldn't kill?
Huh? I haven't even suggested a strategy of my own yet. What is this for kind of question?And where do you promis that we won't have 3 dead doctor anyway?
Scum have to be next to eachother? Interesting choice of words. We don't know who the scum are, so we can't put them next to eachother. How would you want to do that? Unless, of course, you already know who the scum are because you're scum yourself. Oh, and we can't force scum to kill eachother at night. If they are next to eachother in the circle they won't use the town tactics obviously.And mykonian already knew that scum have to be next to each other in the circle, and that they should be "forced" to kill another scummy player.
I read 'we better lynch right today' as 'we better lynch right now' instead of 'we better lynch good today'. An error on my side.And what is that last thing? how am I stopping discussion when I'm starting it?
And here we have another Strawman argument. XScorpion attacks the 'he is so scummy he must be town' reasoning. This does not mean that he thinks the opposite.XScorpion wrote:Why me? Because Lookerscum defeated my town last game
I've seen scum suggest plans like that before and been defended by "I don't think scum would want to go and suggest a plan like that." I'm not buying it again.
We aren't going to be friends. This is horrible reasoning (he is so towny he must be scum).Vote: Mykonianvote Xscorpion. Because you avoid all discussion about why the plan is actually scummy, and just go with general consensus and conspiracy thinking.
Eh, yes? It's one of the four setups in Newbie games. According to AGar's analysis, scum wins that setup 64% of the time. Where did you get the 90% number from?ever seen a 7-2 mountainous game? no, because that is horrible for town, scum wins 90%. So we have to use the powerroles someway.
I'm growing sick of these plans. These plans have the EXACT SAME FLAWS your earlier plan had.ok, myko strat v2:
We pick a group of minimal 3 players, and let them circle. We pick the scummy players for this. In case there is a CPR or Quack among them, one scummy player is gone now. Sadly, the same counts for the weak doc: the investigation is practically wasted. The rest of the players does nothing.
myko strat v3: we pick 3 players who are targets, we pick 3 other players who are going to target: same effect, if one of the targeting (townie) players is a CPR or Quack, we lost a scummy player. Benefit is that the weak doc's investigation (hard to find because of the scums kill, perhaps), is not completely wasted. The JK is not a problem here.
As a matter of fact I do have an idea: We stop discussing the night and every individual does what they think is best, be it random or a strategy of their own. Here's why:DiscoRoboto wrote:Also, Gymmo, if you disagree with the plan, what do think about knowing your PR? Should we ignore it or do you have a better plan?
Mindgamer wrote:You failed to mention they could kill.mykonian wrote:Where did I say mafia couldn't kill?
Why are you not doing anything of yourself?Huh? I haven't even suggested a strategy of my own yet. What is this for kind of question?And where do you promis that we won't have 3 dead doctor anyway?
Lets see this objectively: people sticking their necks out, people proposing things, in stead of following are town. Scorp thinks I do this to manipulate = too towny principle. "He is so obviously sticking his neck out, it must have some purpose"And here we have another Strawman argument. XScorpion attacks the 'he is so scummy he must be town' reasoning. This does not mean that he thinks the opposite.XScorpion wrote:Why me? Because Lookerscum defeated my town last game
I've seen scum suggest plans like that before and been defended by "I don't think scum would want to go and suggest a plan like that." I'm not buying it again.
We aren't going to be friends. This is horrible reasoning (he is so towny he must be scum).Vote: Mykonianvote Xscorpion. Because you avoid all discussion about why the plan is actually scummy, and just go with general consensus and conspiracy thinking.
From what I can see, XScorpion seems to favour the 'he is so scummy he must be scum' theory, the only theory based on actual logic.
Very simple: I am trying to convince you of something, that must mean I'm scum, right? I must be manipulating you.There is no general consensus. General consensus is the situation where EVERYONE agrees on a certain topic. Please elaborate on your 'conspiracy thinking' statement.
This is because scum is still scared of powerroles: the setups here and there aren't equal.Eh, yes? It's one of the four setups in Newbie games. According to AGar's analysis, scum wins that setup 64% of the time. Where did you get the 90% number from?ever seen a 7-2 mountainous game? no, because that is horrible for town, scum wins 90%. So we have to use the powerroles someway.
As a matter of fact I do have an idea: We stop discussing the night and every individual does what they think is best, be it random or a strategy of their own. Here's why:I'm growing sick of these plans. These plans have the EXACT SAME FLAWS your earlier plan had.
1. The scum know who the doctors are going to target, so the scum get a 100% sure kill.SOLVE IT. THEY HAVE THAT ANYWAY, OR YOUR PROTECTION IS ACCIDENTALLY A QUACK, AND YOU KILL HIM
2. After the night, we still don't know anything about the doctors due to the scum interference. If a doctor dies, do you call him a weak doctor? Who says the scum can't target a doctor-target to further complicate things? At the beginning of the next day, only the scum know every night action, and so only the scum can draw conclusions. The scum now have a few roles confirmed where the town is still in doubt. Yay?this is why strat 2 is better: the targeting and target players are both scummy, making that any complications (scumkills/weak doc) are on people we want dead anyway.
we have 2 roles that kill, 3 that save(with one of them the weak doctor) BRILLIANT PLAN. Suddenly a quack "protects" a confirmed towny: what now, GENIUS?At this moment we have only one true advantage over the scum: We have so many protective roles that there is a high chance their night kill will fail. A failed scum kill is very valuable for the town. If the scum don't know what we are going to do, they can't act in accordance with it.
Does it become better when we put 3 scummy (lurking) people in a circle targeting each other, thereby having the kills among the people we want gone anyway, and minimizing the negative effects?SaintKerrigan wrote:@ Mykonian:
Think about it. The scum have a guaranteed nightkill with the original circle plan by killing off one of the people they're supposed to be "protecting." The only way town gets a night scumkill is through one of our two killing roles getting lined up one at least one of the scum. The odds of both of our killing roles hitting both scum is nigh impossible. The odds of hitting just one isn't that much likelier. The odds of killing off an innocent are good. Meanwhile, the scum have a guaranteed nightkill. This is why I disagree with your plan.SaintKerrigan wrote:There is a much better chance of scum winning with this plan than town; it's far more likely that the doctor kills will land on innocents
Yeah, I'm a bit more calm now:Meanwhile, there's XScorpion.
Unvote: Looker. Vote: XScorpion.
You first simply call Mykonian's plan scummy without explaining why, and when quizzed about it you give an absolutely horrendous WIFOM reason. Then you misrepresent Mykonian by attributing a quote to him that was actually from Mindgamer. Right now, you're looking very scummy to me.
Um, not really. I don't see how doing this is going to minimize negative effects or confine our kills to scummy people.Mykonian wrote:Does it become better when we put 3 scummy (lurking) people in a circle targeting each other, thereby having the kills among the people we want gone anyway, and minimizing the negative effects?
- Whether the plan sucks or not is a nulltellSaintKerrigan's [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2115417#2115417]Post 42[/url] wrote:4. Interesting assumption, but ok. Although I would like a simple yes or no answer in response to "Do you think Mykonian's plan is a nulltell".
Well, we already know that one of you is scum, we just have to figure out which. We're currently in the process of doing so.XScorpion's [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2116233#2116233]Post 47[/url] wrote:P.S. Only obv. scum speak in third person.
@Kyle, Light, & Danny: Who do you guys think should make the circle?DiscoRoboto's [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2116320#2116320]Post 48[/url] wrote:I suggest doing a town-event vote for the one who makes the circle,if(and only IF) everyone (or at least a vast majority) agrees on going through with it.
We will elect a player to make the circle by majority voting, we can easily set a deadline of, say, a week (only an example).
If we go through with this I can do the votecounts if necessary.
I'm suggesting this plan because it's the closest we can get to a fair choice on the 'circle-maker'. This is pretty much the same as a lynch but in this case we actually have more chance to hit a towny instead of a mafia. Profitable? In my eyes it is.
Buddying? You sure I'm not holding a grudge against you...? You never know, I could be a xRECKONERx alt...kyle99's [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2116328#2116328]Post 49[/url] wrote: Wow looker, your reasoning is awful. You voted me because I didn't put someone at L1 before the mod even announces day one has started, and your vote seems to be just to start up a competing wagon to the Mykonian wagon. Scum-buddying, perhaps?
What would be your better variation (of the idea)?Light's [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2116874#2116874]Post 52[/url] wrote:we definitely need a testing strat to test our doctor skills. I'd do the circle strat only if everyone else agrees to it, otherwise we could do a 'better variation of the idea'.
- I didn't dislike it. I felt he made the least commitment.Mindgamer's [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2117050#2117050]Post 57[/url] wrote:How so? Although I'm very sure Mykonian is scum, putting someone at L-1 after almost no discussion is madness. For this reason he FoS'd. Why do you not like this?
This implies that we're voting for Mykonian because he's stupid. No, we're voting for him because he's scummy. Quite the Strawman argument you make here.
Why? Do you think you would make a great leader for this game?
With this, I agree.SaintKerrigan's [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2117066#2117066]Post 58[/url] wrote:For the record, I'm in favor of every man acting for himself. That said, I don't think Mykonian is scummy for suggesting the plans, even if they are flawed.
mykonian wrote:Mindgamer wrote:You failed to mention they could kill.mykonian wrote:Where did I say mafia couldn't kill?SERIOUSLY?you didn't even have doubts when you posted this?
No.
I already did?mykonian wrote:Why are you not doing anything of yourself?Huh? I haven't even suggested a strategy of my own yet. What is this for kind of question?And where do you promis that we won't have 3 dead doctor anyway?
mykonian wrote:Lets see this objectively: people sticking their necks out, people proposing things, in stead of following are town. Scorp thinks I do this to manipulate = too towny principle. "He is so obviously sticking his neck out, it must have some purpose"And here we have another Strawman argument. XScorpion attacks the 'he is so scummy he must be town' reasoning. This does not mean that he thinks the opposite.XScorpion wrote:Why me? Because Lookerscum defeated my town last game
I've seen scum suggest plans like that before and been defended by "I don't think scum would want to go and suggest a plan like that." I'm not buying it again.
We aren't going to be friends. This is horrible reasoning (he is so towny he must be scum).Vote: Mykonianvote Xscorpion. Because you avoid all discussion about why the plan is actually scummy, and just go with general consensus and conspiracy thinking.
From what I can see, XScorpion seems to favour the 'he is so scummy he must be scum' theory, the only theory based on actual logic.mykonian wrote:
'Lets see this objectively: people sticking their necks out, people proposing things, in stead of following are town.'
No. People proposinghelpfulthings aremore likelyto be town. People proposinguseless/detrimentalthings are more likely to be scum.
Manipulating is something scum does. It's certainly not towny, let alone too towny.
What is this crap? A conspiracy is an agreement between two or more people to commit an evil act.mykonian wrote:Very simple: I am trying to convince you of something, that must mean I'm scum, right? I must be manipulating you.There is no general consensus. General consensus is the situation where EVERYONE agrees on a certain topic. Please elaborate on your 'conspiracy thinking' statement.
In the end you lynch the scummo's obviously. Are you joking here?mykonian wrote:And in the end, you only lynch the person that stands out, not the scummo's,who generally don't want to stand out. Which is why tells as bandwagoning work.
Bandwagons are used for pressure btw.
It's not the fact that you're coming up with ideas, it's the fact that you're coming up with pro-scum ideas.mykonian wrote:You are this way stalling the coming of new ideas, since you consider someone that thinks of a new idea and tries to convince you, scum.
lol?mykonian wrote:Good luck ever trying to become better.
Newbie games with a Mafia Roleblocker have a 50% chance of playing with a Cop and Doctor, so the scum is always 'scared' of powerroles. And I ask again: Where did you get the 90% number from?mykonian wrote:This is because scum is still scared of powerroles: the setups here and there aren't equal.Eh, yes? It's one of the four setups in Newbie games. According to AGar's analysis, scum wins that setup 64% of the time. Where did you get the 90% number from?ever seen a 7-2 mountainous game? no, because that is horrible for town, scum wins 90%. So we have to use the powerroles someway.
Though with the nurse, 90% is certainly too much.
Even then 36% is not enough for me. Playing with 1 confirmed vig, and 1 confirmed doc would make me much more happy.
mykonian wrote:I'm growing sick of these plans. These plans have the EXACT SAME FLAWS your earlier plan had.
1. The scum know who the doctors are going to target, so the scum get a 100% sure kill.SOLVE IT. THEY HAVE THAT ANYWAY, OR YOUR PROTECTION IS ACCIDENTALLY A QUACK, AND YOU KILL HIMThey don't have that anyway. Quack is irrelevant.
2. After the night, we still don't know anything about the doctors due to the scum interference. If a doctor dies, do you call him a weak doctor? Who says the scum can't target a doctor-target to further complicate things? At the beginning of the next day, only the scum know every night action, and so only the scum can draw conclusions. The scum now have a few roles confirmed where the town is still in doubt. Yay?this is why strat 2 is better: the targeting and target players are both scummy, making that any complications (scumkills/weak doc) are on people we want dead anyway.Complications > Giving the scum info as opposed to the town. And you're assuming the whole town wants 3 out of 8 people dead anyway. Unrealistic.
As a matter of fact I do have an idea: We stop discussing the night and every individual does what they think is best, be it random or a strategy of their own. Here's why:
we have 2 roles that kill, 3 that save(with one of them the weak doctor) BRILLIANT PLAN. Suddenly a quack "protects" a confirmed towny: what now, GENIUS?At this moment we have only one true advantage over the scum: We have so many protective roles that there is a high chance their night kill will fail. A failed scum kill is very valuable for the town. If the scum don't know what we are going to do, they can't act in accordance with it.A confirmed townie? Where?
No.mykonian wrote:Mindgamer wrote:You failed to mention they could kill.mykonian wrote:Where did I say mafia couldn't kill?SERIOUSLY?you didn't even have doubts when you posted this?
I already did?mykonian wrote:Why are you not doing anything of yourself?Huh? I haven't even suggested a strategy of my own yet. What is this for kind of question?And where do you promis that we won't have 3 dead doctor anyway?
'Lets see this objectively: people sticking their necks out, people proposing things, in stead of following are town.'mykonian wrote:Lets see this objectively: people sticking their necks out, people proposing things, in stead of following are town. Scorp thinks I do this to manipulate = too towny principle. "He is so obviously sticking his neck out, it must have some purpose"And here we have another Strawman argument. XScorpion attacks the 'he is so scummy he must be town' reasoning. This does not mean that he thinks the opposite.XScorpion wrote:Why me? Because Lookerscum defeated my town last game
I've seen scum suggest plans like that before and been defended by "I don't think scum would want to go and suggest a plan like that." I'm not buying it again.
We aren't going to be friends. This is horrible reasoning (he is so towny he must be scum).Vote: Mykonianvote Xscorpion. Because you avoid all discussion about why the plan is actually scummy, and just go with general consensus and conspiracy thinking.
From what I can see, XScorpion seems to favour the 'he is so scummy he must be scum' theory, the only theory based on actual logic.
What is this crap? A conspiracy is an agreement between two or more people to commit an evil act.mykonian wrote:Very simple: I am trying to convince you of something, that must mean I'm scum, right? I must be manipulating you.There is no general consensus. General consensus is the situation where EVERYONE agrees on a certain topic. Please elaborate on your 'conspiracy thinking' statement.
In the end you lynch the scummo's obviously. Are you joking here?mykonian wrote:And in the end, you only lynch the person that stands out, not the scummo's,who generally don't want to stand out. Which is why tells as bandwagoning work.
It's not the fact that you're coming up with ideas, it's the fact that you're coming up with pro-scum ideas.mykonian wrote:You are this way stalling the coming of new ideas, since you consider someone that thinks of a new idea and tries to convince you, scum.
lol?mykonian wrote:Good luck ever trying to become better.
Newbie games with a Mafia Roleblocker have a 50% chance of playing with a Cop and Doctor, so the scum is always 'scared' of powerroles. And I ask again: Where did you get the 90% number from?mykonian wrote:This is because scum is still scared of powerroles: the setups here and there aren't equal.Eh, yes? It's one of the four setups in Newbie games. According to AGar's analysis, scum wins that setup 64% of the time. Where did you get the 90% number from?ever seen a 7-2 mountainous game? no, because that is horrible for town, scum wins 90%. So we have to use the powerroles someway.
Though with the nurse, 90% is certainly too much.
Even then 36% is not enough for me. Playing with 1 confirmed vig, and 1 confirmed doc would make me much more happy.
[/quote]mykonian wrote:I'm growing sick of these plans. These plans have the EXACT SAME FLAWS your earlier plan had.
1. The scum know who the doctors are going to target, so the scum get a 100% sure kill.SOLVE IT. THEY HAVE THAT ANYWAY, OR YOUR PROTECTION IS ACCIDENTALLY A QUACK, AND YOU KILL HIMThey don't have that anyway. Quack is irrelevant.
2. After the night, we still don't know anything about the doctors due to the scum interference. If a doctor dies, do you call him a weak doctor? Who says the scum can't target a doctor-target to further complicate things? At the beginning of the next day, only the scum know every night action, and so only the scum can draw conclusions. The scum now have a few roles confirmed where the town is still in doubt. Yay?this is why strat 2 is better: the targeting and target players are both scummy, making that any complications (scumkills/weak doc) are on people we want dead anyway.Complications > Giving the scum info as opposed to the town. And you're assuming the whole town wants 3 out of 8 people dead anyway. Unrealistic.
As a matter of fact I do have an idea: We stop discussing the night and every individual does what they think is best, be it random or a strategy of their own. Here's why:
we have 2 roles that kill, 3 that save(with one of them the weak doctor) BRILLIANT PLAN. Suddenly a quack "protects" a confirmed towny: what now, GENIUS?At this moment we have only one true advantage over the scum: We have so many protective roles that there is a high chance their night kill will fail. A failed scum kill is very valuable for the town. If the scum don't know what we are going to do, they can't act in accordance with it.A confirmed townie? Where?
Are you stupid or are you scum? OBVIOUSLY we lynch scummos. That is why IIRC, scum wins most of the games here.Mindgamer wrote:In the end you lynch the scummo's obviously. Are you joking here?mykonian wrote:And in the end, you only lynch the person that stands out, not the scummo's,who generally don't want to stand out. Which is why tells as bandwagoning work.
Bandwagons are used for pressure btw.
I don't want you to die, Mykonian.mykonian's [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2117366#2117366]Post 67[/url] wrote:And the above: that is not playstyle, that is intelligence, mostly. You have made that choice conciously, which is ok, but they clearly didn't.
Yes because I'm gonna do such a good job convincing people of your scumminess by deliberately attacking you with a quote that you didn't actually say </sarcasm>. Is it really that hard to believe that not everyone plays perfect games? If you actually did read my last game through then you'd know I'm pretty failtownmykonian wrote: Sadly, this is mindgamers quote, and even then it is completely out of context, since it was a joke of his. Are you manipulating, dear scorpion?
Becausemykonian wrote:why did this sentence end up under my name, and why don't you vote mindgamer for this ( I know you won't, I just want to hear from you, why)
I wish this were true, oh I really do. Unfortunately you are completely wrong, and it is easily possible that both of me and Mykonian are just misguided townies. If we actually knew for a fact that either I'm scum or Mykonian is, there really shouldn't be any hesitation to just kill one of us then lynch the other the next day.Looker wrote:Well, we already know that one of you is scum, we just have to figure out which. We're currently in the process of doing so.