Mafia 913: Wickedestjr's Mafia - Game Over

[Fat_Tony]

@Zang: Why are you trying to justify your actions with bad, scummy reasoning?

bad and scummy? How do I have bad and scummy reasoning?

Because scum are bad. QED. Scum also often use bad/flawed logic in their arguments to try and pass off their own agenda as fact, or reasonable.

Zang: who is scum?

To Zang: Since TBM turned up town, who do you believe to be suspicious going into Day 2? I ask you specifically because everyone else seems convinced your lynch worthy, so your perspective is key right now.

my top suspects are sir cyanide and Jack. And the tbm misltnch does make tqo look a lot scumier but I think that he might be town, scum would never risk seeming so stupid.

I think we were looking for reasons as well as names. We're going to need more than we're getting from you right now.

@Zang: what does "taking full responsibility for your actions" mean in context? That you admit you moved your vote around a lot, but you don't want to give an explanation for it so we can all suck it?

it means that I am not dening it and I moved around my vote a lot because they all seemed like they could be scum.

And yet early you wouldn't vote and instead threw FoS/HoS's out all over the shop? AND you said max 2 out of your 3 suspects could be scum (using reasoning I don't quite follow and I don't believe was ever explained)? Dude, weak.

Bold emphasis mine. Also, EBWOP:

"
240: Again says he finds Zang's quick change of heart unnerving. Picks up on POSSIBLE slip: "Why could only 2 of your 3 suspects be mafia?" (Re: Zang post

82

)"

[Zang]

Because scum are bad. QED. Scum also often use bad/flawed logic in their arguments to try and pass off their own agenda as fact, or reasonable.

I know, what I was asking was how my logic seems bad/flawed/scummy.

I think we were looking for reasons as well as names. We're going to need more than we're getting from you right now.

i will tommorow when I have more time

AND you said max 2 out of your 3 suspects could be scum (using reasoning I don't quite follow and I don't believe was ever explained)? Dude, weak.

I explained this in post 246

[The Quintastic One]

Well with Jack not answering my question yet as to why he finds Strangercoug scummy I don't have too much to go off of right now. My vote's going to remain on Jack until I get that explanation. Other than that, Sir Cyanide just reads as douchebag town to me, so I'm not returning to that "OMGUS" if that's what you wanna call it.

I'm done with being called Anti-Town for my actions, that's why I offered myself as a lynch. So even though everyone's going to jump on how anti-town it is no matter what I do, here's what I think of the players that are left.


Jack: Scum. He's far less active now than he was when he first started his soft cop claim. Probably because he finally got called out on it, did some spirited defense and the case was dropped. I don't think it should be dropped so easily.

Strangercoug: Tentative Town. I'm leaning town more because he's been one of the more active players and he was the only one who actively grilled Jack on his soft claim. But if Jack were to come up town I would have to strongly reconsider my read on Coug.

Agar: Town. Has been very careful not to post too much, but that's due to time constraints. I just wish his limited posting moved conversation along more than it has.

Cruelty: Initial scum read, but I'm feeling more confident about the possibility of being town.

Zang: Unique situation. I consider him town, which means that those who are heavily grilling him and pursuing his lynch instinctively go up a few notches in scumminess. I actually think the argument of "too scummy to be scum" applies more to Zang than myself. I think it's funny that everyone is grilling him for his hammer, when Paltryexcuse was going to hammer just as well if Fat Tony would of posted his ISO. I think Paltyexcuses nightkill last night is being used as a way to frame Zang, as it's SO obvious that a new guy like Zang would kill off PE in order to kill off one of his critics. Too obvious if you ask me. Zang reads town.

Fat_Tony: Scum. Never gave us that ISO on TBM yesterday like he said he would. Which was the only thing preventing Paltryexcuse from giving the hammer instead of Zang. I think Fat Tony is most likely scum alongside Jack as they seem smart enough to think of a plot like that against Zang. Yeah it's WIFOM, fuck off. I'm using it.

If I'm missing anyone let me know.

[Zang]

Your missing vivi, zhero and sir cyanide

[StrangerCoug]

So

THAT'S

why hardly anybody liked your "case" on him.

I do not understand what you are saying

You've admitted to just pointing stuff of his out and not compiling a decent case on him more than once. In theory, anybody can just post "Hey, I don't like that he did this, so I'm going to hammer him." In practice, lack of effort in the hammer costs the town information.

This is self-contradictory. TheButtonmen either was not scumhunting or accused The Quintastic One of being a liar changing his story. Both cannot be true.

Actually, both can be true and both are true. Calling someone a liar over and over and over again in every single post they make is not scum hunting. So yes, both are true.

People tend not to get lynched over just one thing, so I can see how this makes sense now.

I think scum is somewhere in vivi, SC, jack and agar. Need to re-read day 1 though.

Are you including SIR CYANIDE or me in your scum theory? (I already saw that you meant Zang instead of AGar.)

[cruelty]

sorry, meant you. will elaborate more on all 4 later.

[The Quintastic One]

To finish up the list of suspects.


Sir Cyanide: As I said, I read him as douchebag town more than scum. There's no way any rationally thinking scum player would openly be a dick and risk being turned on by the town just by his offensive behavior.

Zhero: I hate to say this, but nothing he's done particularly sticks out to me. I know he's been active enough, and done his fair share of posting. But I don't read much scum from him because most of his posts are overshadowed by more controversial looking posts from other people. So I'm gonna have a nullread right now. I should probably backtrack and read all of his posts thus far and get a better idea on where he stands in my mind.

Vivi: The argument of a TBM/Vivi scumteam is obviously out the window at this point. So with Vivi's random and passionate defense of TBM towards the end of Day 1, there's no way I could consider him scum right now. Scum wouldn't willingly fight desperately to protect the lynch of another player. They would be aiding in the lynching.

[SIR CYANIDE]

Scum wouldn't willingly fight desperately to protect the lynch of another player. They would be aiding in the lynching.

You might want to watch out with that, it's a tactic to gain townie-points.

I have nothing else to add.

[Fat_Tony]

@TQO: I feel a few things need to be clarified here. Yesterday, I said I would post ISOs on Paltry and TBM. I didn't have time to do both in the end, as I was late in from work and had chores to do around the house. So I posted what I thought to be the most relevant. Also, an Iso on TBM yesterday would have stopped the hammer, since that came last week. I said I would post a PBPA (post by post analysis, as I remember someone asking what PBPA meant pre-lynch) on Saturday waaay back on Tuesday/Wednesday (I forget exactly which), but Zang hammered before Saturday came around. The difference between this and Paltry saying he would hammer post PBPA is that if he waits for the PBPA it's possible I find a stronger case on someone else before we lynch. TBM lynch was not inevitable. However, the hammer is only a part of why I want to vote zang now. He's slipped up and contradicted himself on at least one occasion and he's my strongest scum read.

FWIW, I agree with your analysis on Jack coming across scummy now (OMG distancing). He and cruelty give me the heebies.

If you want an ISO on TBM I'll do one, it'll be later on though as I have pesky work.

By the way, the fact you are again pointing he finger at someone who has criticised your play is duly noted.

[The Quintastic One]

I don't even remember where you criticized my play, so I have no idea what you're talking about. But sure, if you wanna try to pass off my suspicions of you as OMGUS like everyone else says all my suspicions are that's fine. But that's not going to make you any less scummy in my eyes.

Your lazy assumption that my analysis of you is nothing more than OMGUS is duly noted.

[Fat_Tony]

Firstly, EBWOP: an iso of TBM yesterday would NOT have topped the hammer...

Secondly, I didn't dismiss your case against me as OMGUS- I dismissed it on the basis of factual inaccuracy, as detailed in the paragraph of 'clarifications'. You're picking and choosing what you read of mine, and twisting it for your own agenda.

And for the record, I've never meant to imply that YOU are antitown - I've said on more than one occasion that I can't justify your claim for any reason other than it being truthful. What I have said is that your play is antitown due to its ineptitude. Which, by the way, would be me criticising your play.

Anyway, we are wasting time by bouncing this back and forth. Zang, your rebuttals have been noted, I'll reply tonight when I have more time.

[Zhero]

my top suspects are sir cyanide and Jack.

Why?

Since we know now that he is confirmed town, and since the standard of play so far in this one has been fairly poor from all sides, I have no problem believing that the NK was down to scum-Zang having figured out that he was probably going to get owned by Paltry in D2, and acting out of desperation. I am definitely looking for some decent work by Zang to keep him from being our daykill today.

This is pretty WIFOMy though.. and Zang wouldn't be the only mafioso. Nor was Paltry the only person to express suspicion of Zang on Day 1.

Don't get me wrong though, Zang's play is pretty worrying.

[Jack]

Paltry was the most townie player yesterday. Can't conclude anything from his death, it was just a good choice.

Cruelty is my top pick, I shy away from zang because new players have the habit of being scummy, then really scummy, then ultra scummy, then very innocent looking.

[Zang]

Explainatons-

sir cyanide-like tqo said he is a douchebag but I think that this makes him scum unlike tqo. If acting like scum is to scummy to be scum than both me and tqo wouldn't be top suspects.

Jack-basically, his biggest mistake was his cop claim, he had no reason for it and I don't think he ever did explain why he did do it.

[Wickedestjr]

Votecount 14:

Zang - (3) - StrangerCoug, Vivi57, Fat_Tony
cruelty - (2) - Jack, AGar
Jack - (1) - The Quintastic One

[Jack]

Jack-basically, his biggest mistake was his cop claim, he had no reason for it and I don't think he ever did explain why he did do it.

Since it's moved beyond the useful now, I'll state the obvious: it was a bit of a joke to get some discussion started. I often do this. The random vote stage annoys me. I very carefully

didn't

claim cop btw. You can call it a soft claim, but what cop in their right mind soft claims page one? That isn't even wifom.

[Zang]

Jack-basically, his biggest mistake was his cop claim, he had no reason for it and I don't think he ever did explain why he did do it.

Since it's moved beyond the useful now, I'll state the obvious: it was a bit of a joke to get some discussion started. I often do this. The random vote stage annoys me. I very carefully

didn't

claim cop btw. You can call it a soft claim, but what cop in their right mind soft claims page one? That isn't even wifom.

I realized that it was a joke but it was still a big mistake

[The Quintastic One]

Jack STILL hasn't elaborated for me as to why he finds Strangercoug climbing up his list of scum suspects. So I'll have to assume he's ignoring me.

Either way, why would Jack openly admit that killing off PaltryExcuse was a good choice for the Mafia? That sounds like a subtle patting on the back to me.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Ill.

[Vivi57]

Jack-basically, his biggest mistake was his cop claim, he had no reason for it and I don't think he ever did explain why he did do it.

Since it's moved beyond the useful now, I'll state the obvious: it was a bit of a joke to get some discussion started. I often do this. The random vote stage annoys me. I very carefully

didn't

claim cop btw. You can call it a soft claim, but what cop in their right mind soft claims page one? That isn't even wifom.

I realized that it was a joke but it was still a big mistake

explain how it was a mistake. He just wanted to get discussion going and he succeeded. Are you trying to say that jack generating discussion is a bad thing?

[The Quintastic One]

I'd say it's more the way he went about creating the discussion and continuing it. He had circular logic that basically went like this.

If you said you wanted to be investigated by the cop, then you're scum looking like you have something to prove.

If you said you didn't want to be investigated by the cop, then you had something to hide and were also obviously scum.

If you didn't answer the question at all, you were dodging the question and thus were acting scummy.

It was a lose-lose-lose situation. And if anyone tried to question Jack on it he would just post one liners of "You didn't read the thread carefully enough" and ignore the questions entirely afterward.

Now I find it convenient how he went from that being his ace in the hole playing strategy to find scum to how it's suddenly just "a bit of a joke to get some discussion started".

So if that one topic he brought up is to be taken as a joke, I don't see a single thing Jack has posted the entire game beyond that beginning conversation starter that's been any use. And even now that he's discrediting the usefullness of his own argument, he's basically got nothing in his favor to keep me from believing he's scum.

[Wickedestjr]

The activity in this game is good. Nobody needs prodding.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Well again.

The Quintastic One is starting to remind me of a roller coaster—from being panicky to being logical to senselessly martyring himself to being logical. I'm still leaning town on him, but he's not my strongest town read by a long shot.

[Fat_Tony]

I'd say it's more the way he went about creating the discussion and continuing it. He had circular logic that basically went like this.

If you said you wanted to be investigated by the cop, then you're scum looking like you have something to prove.

If you said you didn't want to be investigated by the cop, then you had something to hide and were also obviously scum.

If you didn't answer the question at all, you were dodging the question and thus were acting scummy.

It was a lose-lose-lose situation. And if anyone tried to question Jack on it he would just post one liners of "You didn't read the thread carefully enough" and ignore the questions entirely afterward.

Now I find it convenient how he went from that being his ace in the hole playing strategy to find scum to how it's suddenly just "a bit of a joke to get some discussion started".

So if that one topic he brought up is to be taken as a joke, I don't see a single thing Jack has posted the entire game beyond that beginning conversation starter that's been any use. And even now that he's discrediting the usefullness of his own argument, he's basically got nothing in his favor to keep me from believing he's scum.

StrangerCoug is right on in his post, because I think you're on to something here. I think as an attempt to start discussion, it was successful (partly), but you are right in saying that it was a question with no right answer and it did cause a lot of song and dance that frankly led to us mislynching.

Now he's trying to say it was all a joke? As a joke, it was a pretty terrible idea, and as you say, it discredits his own argument and leaves us in the sort of position where we have to ask what he's actually contributed to the game.

By the way - this was a quick post as I had 5 minutes to come in and read the thread - I apologise for the delays in my posting the last few days but work has swallowed me whole and I've had no free time - I'm using my lunch break to even do this. I promise to get you a TBM iso, my response to Zang, and some more meaningful analysis next time I get an hour to myself (please God let it be soon *cries*)

[Fat_Tony]

my top suspects are sir cyanide and Jack.

Why?

Since we know now that he is confirmed town, and since the standard of play so far in this one has been fairly poor from all sides, I have no problem believing that the NK was down to scum-Zang having figured out that he was probably going to get owned by Paltry in D2, and acting out of desperation. I am definitely looking for some decent work by Zang to keep him from being our daykill today.

This is pretty WIFOMy though.. and Zang wouldn't be the only mafioso. Nor was Paltry the only person to express suspicion of Zang on Day 1.

Don't get me wrong though, Zang's play is pretty worrying.

Quickly as I have a couple of minutes left - I appreciate that both thsoe things you say are true - however, given the standard of his play and the amount of suspicion already upon him, I can imagine the scum players being willing to get rid of Zang in order to limit the damage he can do. Best way for them to do this - take out the guy who very strongly attacked and cast suspicion on Zang after his hammer.

I realise it would be a REALLY obvious/bad play from Zang's POV... but this is Zang.

And finally - my scumlist: Zang, Jack, cruelty. Elaborations next time, here on Mafia.