Newbie 906 - Game Over!

[PaltryExcuse]

/confirm

/confirm
Another game with RayFrost...

Having a game with RayFrost seems to be an initiation to the site. He plays so many you're bound to play a game with him sooner or later.

[PaltryExcuse]

ell oh ell @ PE.

This time I won't be replacing a scummy as hell player, though, so expect to get caught, scum!

But I'm not scum this time! I promise!

I'd also like to do my standard SE introduction that I'm supposed to do but keep forgetting to do...

Crap. I need one of those. For now, what he said. I'm the other SE.

[PaltryExcuse]

@ PaltryExcuse - Do you have any advice for me going into my first game here?

If town: Independent thought is the most important characteristic of town. When someone builds a case, do not take their word as solid gold. Look back at the context of any quotations they give and determine if you believe that it is possible.
Aggressiveness (not patronizing or insulting) is a good quality I believe in townies. Look for contradictions, but more importantly (as RayFrost said) look for

motive

. If you agree with someone's case, don't be afraid to back them.
And especially early on, when we're not even close to a lynch, don't be afraid to vote. A vote will spark a response much more informative than just an FoS. (Obvious exception, we're mylo / lylo, FoS's carry much more weight). Putting someone at L-1, for me, is the same as saying "I'm ok with lynching this person now."
If you're under attack, defend yourself. Don't give up, don't self-vote. (FYI: in my first game, RayFrost replaced someone under major suspicion but fought until his lynch. So good on 'em.) Don't assume your attacker is scum. Weak cases can be built by scum, but motive is much more telling.

If you're scum: Fake the above. Don't be afraid of bussing, but don't be too eager either.

Overall: Have fun, and make sure your fun doesn't hurt others' (no personal attacks). Posting reliable and thoughtful content makes the game more entertaining for all.

---

@kelyn: Who's response were/are you looking forwards to the most?

[PaltryExcuse]

Thanks for the advice Paltry.

vote: PaltryExcuse

This maybe should have been on Ray, but I am putting it on you. Ray has been very talkative and is an SE. While you are an SE and aren't being very talkative maybe it is to "Stay under the Radar". I don't know which is more common for SE's since I have never played on this site, but maybe it is just a personality thing. Anyways, thanks.

----------

Sorry for this mistake jmurph. I never know Carmen carried a gun. The only exposure I have ever had to her was the TV show on Nickelodeon I think.

It's a personality tell. The rate of Ray's posting is hugely above average site-wide.

On defensiveness: I like it in townies, so long as they also go after people (in other words, scum hunt). Secondly, I already mentioned that Ray was in my game and went down fighting as town. Defensiveness for him is not a scumtell in my minimal experience with him.

@jmurph3: How is RayFrost being defensive? Give a post and maybe an idea of what you think a townie would do in his position.

@kelyn: Answer my question from before: Who's response were/are you looking forward to the most?
Also, do you believe lurking to be a scum tell?

[PaltryExcuse]

Upon review kelyn, you say this about your vote:

This maybe should have been on Ray, but I am putting it on you.

Why should your vote have been on Ray?

[PaltryExcuse]

@ Paltry - Why do you ask? Do you agree my vote should be with him?

I ask because it seemed like a weird thing to say. Still kind of is, but I can understand the mentality. Just to clear it up once and for all: early day 1 is getting an idea of playstyle.

Right now, I'd much rather

Vote: jmurph13

. fuzzy's case makes sense right now.

[PaltryExcuse]

I'm here. Friday was a busy day. Could I ask that someone unvotes RayFrost? I want to catch up BEFORE a lynch (and a lynch this early seems foolhardy).

[PaltryExcuse]

On jmurph's responses to the 2, then 3, votes on him:
There wasn't even a defense, or an attempt to scumhunt (the main reason I voted for him. His evidence was weak on his 'pseudo-accusation' on RayFrost. The problem with 'getting over-defensive' and the like as a reason to vote is that you don't know the people personally so you can't know whether that's how they act as town or scum. Secondly, people can hide their initial reactions. They can calm down / edit their posts to mask them.
His new vote on me:

Right now, I'd much rather

Vote: jmurph13

. fuzzy's case makes sense right now.

Personally, I feel that for all the fuss Ray made about Prana band-wagoning, no one has said anything about this vote. And I'm not just bringing it up because it's against me. Since saying this, PaltryExcuse has not given any other reasons or, actually, contributed anything at all.

Therefore, I am going to

Vote: PaltryExcuse

.

Seems to be for two reasons:
A) He doesn't like the Prana bandwagon.
B) I don't post on a Friday night. (My last post before these was a Thursday before dinner.)

It just seems like someone trying to participate instead of actively doing so.
Next we have jmurph's longest post in the game so far:

So that would, in theory, give us a scum team of Ray & jmurph, which I would count as a possible.

Firstly, I would like to say that I in no way asked that Ray defend me as vehemently as he did. In fact, I'm just as confused as all of you as to why he did. He is defending me of his own accord...and that worries me.

What exactly worries you about him defending you? Analyzing bandwagons is actually an effective way of weeding out scum. I might be tooting my own horn here, but check out Day 1 of Newbie 865. My analysis on a bandwagon I didn't agree with actually allowed me to catch scum Day 1. If anything, I like what RF did here.

jmurph3: Even though I don't get the case fuzzy seems to have made for some of you, the lack of real content in her posts leads me to feel she may have something to hide and doesn't quite know how to go about it. My guess is she is inexperienced scum with a partner advising her not to say too much while the partner takes the heat.

Redbox's stuff about jmurph is a

direct

implication that I'm jmurphs scumbuddy. Contrast this with his supposed read on me below.

I don't understand how you jumped to this conclusion. Perhaps you're just trying to cover for yourself because you did come out rather strongly in my favor. Or perhaps you're freaking out because you think that this supposed implication is too close to the truth: that you're scum.

Actually, I assumed it was RayFrost as well. He was the only one of the three 'experienced' players getting heat at the time IMO. (IIRC, fuzzy had a weak vote from Skill at the time).

Also, redbox didn't need to

state it directly

for it to be implied or inferred.

Again, I don't understand your logic here. You're probably the only one who inferred it was you...until you started freaking out about how it was you.

Based on that, and on Apathy's long and thorough list of reasons, I am going to

unvote; Vote: RayFrost

.

Overall, this was all commented on by Prana, and is the only analysis jmurph provides for his vote.

On the whole, not very townie.

@Prana: Continuing a day where conversation is still happening, and we're expecting a replacement (for kelyn) and they need to catch up, plus my RL-hecticness and need to catch up are three reasons to unvote. We see that you suspect RayFrost, and no one would expect any different from you at this point. Unvote, and give me and others time.

More to come.

[PaltryExcuse]

Reposting to highlight to any voting Ray:

@Prana: Continuing a day where conversation is still happening, and we're expecting a replacement (for kelyn) and they need to catch up, plus my RL-hecticness and need to catch up are three reasons to unvote. We see that you suspect RayFrost, and no one would expect any different from you at this point. Unvote, and give me and others time.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Paltry: Firstly, I'm a girl. Just saying.

Eep. I'm sorry. No excuses on this end. I should've looked at the little symbol instead of assuming.

There's nothing wrong with you agreeing with someone, but my point is that it seems as though you tried to pass it off as originally your thought, and as something new to the table. You don't even mention Prana, but you mention Apathy's case as a reason to vote RayFrost. It just seems that you've latched on to the case with the most steam behind it.
Also, was I right in why you were voting for me? If so, people will miss a day and it's not scummy. RL stuff will come up.
I just don't see someone pro-town pushing this way.

On Prana:
Overall, you seem to be scum-hunting, and that gives me pro-town feelings. However, I definitely feel at times you've tunnelled yourself pretty deep into the assumption RayFrost is scum.
I definitely agree with you on the bandwagon not doing much harm. L-2 is not close enough for a lynch, although the case was relatively weak (I never would've have lynched her on that alone). My intentions in doing so were to spark a little more exposition from jmurph.
You claim to have done the same thing. So why, when jmurph started posting, did you not prod for more information? Why leave her alone now?
Secondly:

Personally, if you're not willing to put some pressure on someone to see what they do, that would be less pro-town than trying to squeeze some information out of them that might be useful.

What I've gained from this thus far is that Ray is attacking me and hoping others will follow his lead after getting extremely defensive about jmurph, and while that isn't inherently scummy, it depends, to me, on the player, and also how much information you have on the person.

These two seem to contradict each other a bit.
In post A, you defend yourself by saying squeezing information is pro-town. Then, in post B, you attack Ray for attempting to get others to vote with him, and also get more information out of you.

@Prana and jmurph: Who do you think redbox was referring to when he mentioned the more experienced player would take the heat?

@Redbox: Who were you referring to?

@RayFrost: What points that you have made are people ignoring?

More to come part deux.

[PaltryExcuse]

I disagree about redbox's comment. He seemed to have some sort of motive. He specifically mentioned that jmurph was inexperienced scum with a partner taking the heat. For me, that phrase instantly refers to Ray, fuzzy, or me.

I was voting murph to get more information from her because she hadn't been giving any. I highly doubt anyone would say I've not been trying to scum hunt and draw information out of people, factor in that his entire theory of going after me seems to stem from me going after him on actual points, and they become two different issues that cannot be compared.

Whose theory are you talking about? Please rephrase this as I'm very confused as to what the majority of this is saying. I think it's Ray you're talking about, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say. And what does Ray have to do with your reasoning for voting jmurph?

[PaltryExcuse]

@jmurph3: A lot of your post tends to agree with me that my suspicions are valid. So, I'm going to keep 'em.
The part about you voting me was not an attack on anything I had said, but the fact that I wasn't on for a day. It seemed that I was being voted for because I disappeared. Plus you made sure to highlight the fact that it wasn't OMGUS. If a case is solid, don't worry about people claiming OMGUS. OMGUS isn't scummy, it just can weaken a person's points. But if they can't defend themselves and can only go "OMGUS, OMGUS", then the OMGUS claim is invalid and really that may be a solid case.

Also, I think that the other evidence against Ray (see Prana's previous post and Apathy's post) has a lot more weight than the argument about what redbox did or did not mean. That was just the straw that, for me, broke the camel's back.

What is most prevalent about the case on Ray that has you scared and why? You just say: Look at these posts by other people. I have no idea what parts of their cases lead you to believe Ray is scum.

[PaltryExcuse]

I'm going to continue the analysis tomorrow, but I would like to say that it is in our best interest to let RayFrost claim if someone is going to hammer.

(This game is moving seriously fast if we lynch so soon. We have a 3 week deadline. Let's use some more of it folks.)

[PaltryExcuse]

Overall he seems scummy to me, but some things could be explained with meta. So anyone who played with him before, I'm talking to you PE and skill. Could you say if his play at the start of this game is consistent with how you've played in earlier games?

I didn't start the game with RayFrost, he replaced in. When he did, he started with a couple of jokes between him and another player, and then fought hard to not get himself lynched and scumhunted. Then we lynched him because of the previous player. Not much different than this play.

I'm going to continue the analysis tomorrow, but I would like to say that it is in our best interest to let RayFrost claim if someone is going to hammer.

(This game is moving seriously fast if we lynch so soon. We have a 3 week deadline. Let's use some more of it folks.)

Noone is going to hammer, yet. The "don't lynch continue discussion, we got 3 weeks." argument is rubbish, it stalls the game, if there is a majority ready to lynch someone, a lynch should happen.
Many think more discussion is better and improves town odds. Problem with more talking is that any scummy things get harder to be found in the ocean of posts. The usefulness degrades if you forcefully extend the thread. It also gets harder and harder to get a complete picture of someone when the thread gets bigger and bigger. You miss connections between players more easily.
Deadlines are there to stop some games from being completely stalled, and they are 3 weeks because many newbie games also feature a lot of replacements, it is not a reason to make every day 3 weeks.
I've been in a game where 10pages/dag was not uncommon, in short I can say that it did not really favor town.

Prana said he'll hammer if anyone else votes... so we do have someone who would hammer.
The 3 weeks thing was more about how the only 2 who have a multitude of posts are Prana and RayFrost. The game basically consists of cases and comments and then Ray vs. Prana. We have 3 weeks, it wouldn't kill us to use more than 5-6 days. That was my point. We don't have to use the full 3 week deadline.
Plus, I gave more concrete reasons earlier (I needed to catch up, we had a replacement coming in). Not everyone has weighed in on the situation.

[PaltryExcuse]

The stuff on me being scum right now basically requires Ray to be scum, which while possible is still ridiculous. I gave a couple of what I thought were decent reasons (not everyone had weighed in, conversation was still happening) for not rushing into the lynch.

[PaltryExcuse]

Is the case on RayFrost that:
A) He's overdefensive
B) He protected jmurph to some degree
C) He called himself town a few times
D) (Most recently) He had a couple of frustration posts about wanting to get lynched and hammerer is scum.

If so, I can't get behind that case. Am I missing something?

[PaltryExcuse]

It wasn't that he "protected jmurph", it was that he continued pushing something after I pointed out that it was a non-issue, (namely the wagon) deliberately trying to force things in that direction at that point. This was not long after stating that wagons are good to draw information out of people no less, hence using it to do so, was apparently bad suddenly?

True enough. I think wagons are good for the most part universally, as even 'bad' wagons or ill-informed ones provide information. (As I said, I've picked off a scum in a 'bad' wagon.) I think Ray had a point in that the wagon gathered steam rather quickly though.

Ray put words in my mouth regarding stating I was trying to out power roles, when it was quite obvious I hadn't done so.

He also wasn't overdefensive in just defending himself, he was defensive in attempting to fire blame where there was none, I called him on points, he failed to actually defend them, kept arguing them, and also with his frustration posts accused me of not reading his posts, while at the same time as much as admitting he hadn't read mine.

Personally I think the Ray case is rather strong (Trying to say someone else has said something they haven't and hope others don't notice is rather scummy, especially when you then don't back down after something clear as day has been pointed out).

There are other people to consider (for one thing, there's 2 mafia to consider regardless), but if I had a hat, I would eat it if Ray turns up to be anything other than scum.

I disagree about the strength of the case. It seems to require intimate knowledge of Ray's play (rating his defensiveness) and also I think many times you and him read the other's posts with a sense of the other is scum. That clouds your vision, even if you may be right.

As things stand, you won't see my name voting for RayFrost any time soon.

However,

You seem to be saying that I'm going "oh noes, wtf do I do, I'm being found scummy!!!112gfdar!" when only two people, yourself and apathy, have done so while others have stated quite clearly they think I'm town.

More people have stated a town read of me than have stated a scum read of me.

Who has said this beyond Skill?

[PaltryExcuse]

About Skill006:
She has attacked 2 people in this game: RayFrost and fuzzy.
Her vote on RayFrost was accusing him of rolefishing.
Next she lowers our expectations of her when she answers kelyn's question of whether or not she considers herself a good scumhunter. This is fine, but I have no idea why she re-affirms this when RayFrost comments on it.
What surprises me is she then flips to an accusation against fuzzy. There is no comment on Ray's defense, or even a continuation of the idea. It makes me question whether the initial charges were backed up by evidence. Her charges on fuzzy are just as easily dropped. One post by fuzzy causes her to drop suspicion and wonder why she placed a vote on him in the first place.

I don't know why I placed a vote on you, it was kinda hasty.

What accusations that you have made do you have any faith in?
Afterwards she does show why continuing convesation is a good thing, which I agree with. However, I have no idea where her thoughts lie at all. She's staying in the background and not really getting in there and attacking anyone.
I know she thinks Ray is town, but I'm not sure as to why either.

Really, upon an ISO, she's deserving of my vote.

Vote: Skill006

[PaltryExcuse]

Well... I thought maybe I had got scum, but Skill's responses seem to echo a lot of my own thoughts (beside the reasons for extending the day a bit longer). Still, this only appeared after some prodding, so I would say I'm still wary of Skill.

If it wasn't obvious, I agree about the case on Ray. It's not as strong as it has been made out to be and I have little faith in it.
If I go back to my four points of what I thought it was:

Is the case on RayFrost that:
A) He's overdefensive
B) He protected jmurph to some degree
C) He called himself town a few times
D) (Most recently) He had a couple of frustration posts about wanting to get lynched and hammerer is scum.

A) Is so hard to determine without proper experience with Ray. His defense seems synonymous with my limited experience.
B) Bah. This isn't a point.
C) Sarcastic: Oh no...
D) Sarcastic: Oh no... part 2
The only points against him for me right now are the contradictory talk about the jmurph-wagon, and the attacks on Prana are a little erratic and ill-founded.

I'm really unsure of what to make of the case on redbox. All of a sudden it feels like EVERYONE suspects him and that strikes me as odd.

I got a bit of scum on PE, the "don't lynch guys, we must discuss" seems something to fake sounding townish.

Or it could be a townie saying "let people discuss". I don't know how me trying to make sure you have a chance to talk is scummy.

However RayFrost's catching of an in-post contradiction by fuzzy has me worried. Plus, he's making it seem like the only reason I would want to extend the day is because it could be extended.

PE: Why is it so necessary to extend the day all the time? A lot of what has happened on this site is people keep extending days longer than necessary and it causes a need for a large number of replacements because people get bored of the game moving slowly and nothing actually happening. I am not saying that we should end today now, but for future reference, if the town is ready for a lynch, then it is ready for a lynch, not it is ready for a lynch but we should wait until deadline to make it.

My point was there was no need to rush into the lynch (when I mentioned the 3 week deadline) and to give people a chance to talk (I wanted to catch up, we had a replacement coming in). I feel a bit misrepresented here.

Unvote

I'm not sure as to where I want my vote now. There are 3 I'm unsure on (fuzzy, jmurph, Skill).

[PaltryExcuse]

what is your opinion of redbox?

what do you think of the points made against the box drenched in blood?

My opinion of redbox, pre-recent accusations was scummy.
Exhibit A:

jmurph3: Even though I don't get the case fuzzy seems to have made for some of you, the lack of real content in her posts leads me to feel she may have something to hide and doesn't quite know how to go about it. My guess is she is inexperienced scum with a partner advising her not to say too much while the partner takes the heat.

Oh, the oft mentioned jmurph read. I still think it refers to RayFrost. But the important part here, is when I asked for clarification on who he meant... we get this:

You decide; did I say Ray and jmurph3 are a scum team or has Ray misrepresented my words?

Goodie. He continues confusion. This really made me think he's scummy. Secondly, the L-1 vote with him voting with two he thought were scummy? Scary stuff.

The part that has me concerned is the sudden 'everybody finds him scummy'.
RayFrost and Skill were the first two to find him suspicious, and really don't constitute jumping on this nearly voteless bandwagon.
However, after Skill makes her comment on finding redbox scummy:
Prana, jmurph and fuzzy all chime in soon after with scummy reads on redbox as well.
Skill's post was 259, while Fuzzy was the last one on post 281. In 22 posts, Redbox = universally found scummy. Suspicious = yes. (Though obviously not all 3 could be scum.)
Plus, of the 5 who expressed this view, 3 are on my top 3 scum list. It's just negative feelings all round and gives me more of a town read on redbox.
The only person who had a post during this small stretch and didn't point at redbox was jammer. For me, I just went to sleep and redbox was found scummy by nearly all.

[PaltryExcuse]

Vote: jmurph3

Reasons: See old case.
Plus:

And what you literally say isn't always what you actually say.

Not to accuse you of this...as it'd be the second time this game that this has happened...but it seems like you're trying to put words into my mouth.

*yawns and writes down a note in a little black notebook that reads 'noted is

jmurph's attempt to incite a blow up / discredit me without actually putting up a real defense

' before leaving to do schoolwork*

QFTiness.

[PaltryExcuse]

I don't have much time, but I notice some people are accusing Apathy and redbox of lurking. I noticed on the Newbie Queue Kison is looking for a replacement. So, either Apathy or redbox isn't here because they've flaked.

@Mod: Who is being replaced and is the other being prodded?

[PaltryExcuse]

Paltryexcuse: I'm not sure of your read on redbox. When you said this:

The part that has me concerned is the sudden 'everybody finds him scummy'.
RayFrost and Skill were the first two to find him suspicious, and really don't constitute jumping on this nearly voteless bandwagon.
However, after Skill makes her comment on finding redbox scummy:
Prana, jmurph and fuzzy all chime in soon after with scummy reads on redbox as well.
Skill's post was 259, while Fuzzy was the last one on post 281. In 22 posts, Redbox = universally found scummy. Suspicious = yes. (Though obviously not all 3 could be scum.)
Plus, of the 5 who expressed this view, 3 are on my top 3 scum list. It's just negative feelings all round and gives me more of a town read on redbox.
The only person who had a post during this small stretch and didn't point at redbox was jammer. For me, I just went to sleep and redbox was found scummy by nearly all.

You said you thought that this might make him town, but its possible that his scum buddy is non violently agreeing with the crowd (after all, there is only one vote on him). What is your read on him?

My read was this, the first half of the post you quoted:

what is your opinion of redbox?

what do you think of the points made against the box drenched in blood?

My opinion of redbox, pre-recent accusations was scummy.
Exhibit A:

jmurph3: Even though I don't get the case fuzzy seems to have made for some of you, the lack of real content in her posts leads me to feel she may have something to hide and doesn't quite know how to go about it. My guess is she is inexperienced scum with a partner advising her not to say too much while the partner takes the heat.

Oh, the oft mentioned jmurph read. I still think it refers to RayFrost. But the important part here, is when I asked for clarification on who he meant... we get this:

You decide; did I say Ray and jmurph3 are a scum team or has Ray misrepresented my words?

Goodie. He continues confusion. This really made me think he's scummy. Secondly, the L-1 vote with him voting with two he thought were scummy? Scary stuff.

To summarize:
1) I found him at best newbish, at worst scummy. (More scummy than just newbish.)
2) He became more pro-town upon my top 3 scum-reads all expressing suspicions of him. (Still scummy, but I became more wary and began to consider newbie attitude.)
3) Most recently, Phaen has entered with a thoughtful, pro-town and logical post of which I find myself agreeing with a lot.

So: Neutral leaning town.

[PaltryExcuse]

Paltryexcuse: I'm not sure of your read on redbox. When you said this:

The part that has me concerned is the sudden 'everybody finds him scummy'.
RayFrost and Skill were the first two to find him suspicious, and really don't constitute jumping on this nearly voteless bandwagon.
However, after Skill makes her comment on finding redbox scummy:
Prana, jmurph and fuzzy all chime in soon after with scummy reads on redbox as well.
Skill's post was 259, while Fuzzy was the last one on post 281. In 22 posts, Redbox = universally found scummy. Suspicious = yes. (Though obviously not all 3 could be scum.)
Plus, of the 5 who expressed this view, 3 are on my top 3 scum list. It's just negative feelings all round and gives me more of a town read on redbox.
The only person who had a post during this small stretch and didn't point at redbox was jammer. For me, I just went to sleep and redbox was found scummy by nearly all.

You said you thought that this might make him town, but its possible that his scum buddy is non violently agreeing with the crowd (after all, there is only one vote on him). What is your read on him?

My read was this, the first half of the post you quoted:

what is your opinion of redbox?

what do you think of the points made against the box drenched in blood?

My opinion of redbox, pre-recent accusations was scummy.
Exhibit A:

jmurph3: Even though I don't get the case fuzzy seems to have made for some of you, the lack of real content in her posts leads me to feel she may have something to hide and doesn't quite know how to go about it. My guess is she is inexperienced scum with a partner advising her not to say too much while the partner takes the heat.

Oh, the oft mentioned jmurph read. I still think it refers to RayFrost. But the important part here, is when I asked for clarification on who he meant... we get this:

You decide; did I say Ray and jmurph3 are a scum team or has Ray misrepresented my words?

Goodie. He continues confusion. This really made me think he's scummy. Secondly, the L-1 vote with him voting with two he thought were scummy? Scary stuff.

To summarize:
1) I found him at best newbish, at worst scummy. (More scummy than just newbish.)
2) He became more pro-town upon my top 3 scum-reads all expressing suspicions of him. (Still scummy, but I became more wary and began to consider newbie attitude.)
3) Most recently, Phaen has entered with a thoughtful, pro-town and logical post of which I find myself agreeing with a lot.

So: Neutral leaning town.

[PaltryExcuse]

Paltryexcuse: I'm not sure of your read on redbox. When you said this:

The part that has me concerned is the sudden 'everybody finds him scummy'.
RayFrost and Skill were the first two to find him suspicious, and really don't constitute jumping on this nearly voteless bandwagon.
However, after Skill makes her comment on finding redbox scummy:
Prana, jmurph and fuzzy all chime in soon after with scummy reads on redbox as well.
Skill's post was 259, while Fuzzy was the last one on post 281. In 22 posts, Redbox = universally found scummy. Suspicious = yes. (Though obviously not all 3 could be scum.)
Plus, of the 5 who expressed this view, 3 are on my top 3 scum list. It's just negative feelings all round and gives me more of a town read on redbox.
The only person who had a post during this small stretch and didn't point at redbox was jammer. For me, I just went to sleep and redbox was found scummy by nearly all.

You said you thought that this might make him town, but its possible that his scum buddy is non violently agreeing with the crowd (after all, there is only one vote on him). What is your read on him?

My read was this, the first half of the post you quoted:

what is your opinion of redbox?

what do you think of the points made against the box drenched in blood?

My opinion of redbox, pre-recent accusations was scummy.
Exhibit A:

jmurph3: Even though I don't get the case fuzzy seems to have made for some of you, the lack of real content in her posts leads me to feel she may have something to hide and doesn't quite know how to go about it. My guess is she is inexperienced scum with a partner advising her not to say too much while the partner takes the heat.

Oh, the oft mentioned jmurph read. I still think it refers to RayFrost. But the important part here, is when I asked for clarification on who he meant... we get this:

You decide; did I say Ray and jmurph3 are a scum team or has Ray misrepresented my words?

Goodie. He continues confusion. This really made me think he's scummy. Secondly, the L-1 vote with him voting with two he thought were scummy? Scary stuff.

To summarize:
1) I found him at best newbish, at worst scummy. (More scummy than just newbish.)
2) He became more pro-town upon my top 3 scum-reads all expressing suspicions of him. (Still scummy, but I became more wary and began to consider newbie attitude.)
3) Most recently, Phaen has entered with a thoughtful, pro-town and logical post of which I find myself agreeing with a lot.

So: Neutral leaning town.

@All: I'm having a little trouble posting, and seem to only be able to do so at varying times. Please excuse my relative quietness for a little while.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Mod: Sorry for triple post. Could you fix that please and thanks?

[PaltryExcuse]

@Mod: Sorry for triple post. Could you fix that please and thanks? And the one above this one because I forgot to bold it previously?

Note to self: Never use this computer to post anything again.

[PaltryExcuse]

EBWOP just looked up PE's full list of posts, after the first "fuzzy's case make sense" vote for jmurph, there was a lot of discussion about jmurph and why she seems scummy. That has conveniently been left out of jmurph's post in favour of hoping nobody would notice that PE had actually made a case it would seem.

In which case, I'm returning my vote to it's rightful place

vote: jmurph3

About this, I doubt jmurph-scum or -town would deliberately miss this. It seems like an honest error. But I did make a case and we talked a bit so... here goes.

Eek, you are right, I actually legitimately forgot that this took place due to the conversation quickly turning from that to Ray.

However, PE's actual case that he posts a few days after the quote that I made in the initial post can be summed up as follows:

1. I wasn't scumhunting early in the game. Valid enough point, which I cede to him.

It wasn't just the fact that you weren't scumhunting, it was also that you passed some hunting as your own, Prana's, which you admit to here.

You're completely right on this one. I was agreeing with Prana's reasoning, and I thus should have stated as such. I did think that I had added a bit of my own interpretation, but perhaps it was not enough to be seen as my own thoughts.

2. I voted against him to stimulate discussion. Well, I also unvoted him later and haven't (I don't believe) revoted him. Kind of a moot point.

I missed a day realtime, and I agreed previously with fuzzy that you were suspicious so I voted you. Your vote on me could easily have been solved with a question, and I would've given you my answer. Scum often wagon, and express wishy-washyness. They vote for a 'lurker' on the pretense of unexplained points, instead of just prodding them for information and getting their read from that.
Scum, especially new scum, are hesitant to hunt because they don't want a piss poor case coming back to bite them. Initially it was just this.

3. I bandwagoned on to Ray. And agreed with you, Prana.

Overall, this was all commented on by Prana, and is the only analysis jmurph provides for his vote.

On the whole, not very townie.

I still don't consider this to be adding much if anything to the debate. I've already given my defense to all the points here and will not reiterate them here for time and length's sake.

If I thought agreeing with cases was scummy, I would be so for agreeing with fuzzy's early prodding. It's that I don't see any pursuit when town would

need

information. We have none.

This point becomes more important when one looks at the fact that you still haven't scumhunted. You've now tunneled on Ray with other people's cases. What reason have you to believe their cases? Why aren't you looking around at others? So far, your play has been replay others' cases and then defend against attackers. This reliance and trust in these cases worries me.

[PaltryExcuse]

This poster is decently useful but needs to post more often

Thanks for the compliment... but I do agree, and here I am. (Fri. was b-day, past couple days have been celebratory.)

[PaltryExcuse]

Content needed.

Patience.

---

@Prana: Since leaving your suspicions on Ray, you have actually jumped on whatever bandwagon has the most attention at the time. However, you seem to give independent reasoning for your vote so I'm not too worried about it.

@jmurph: I'm waiting on that defense.

Your stance to parana is completely incorrect, and your speculation about his role is highly suspect and is almost certainly rolefishing. He started off a large amount of pressure, then, as other players came to attack me, he started to reanalyze his stance. NOBODY HAD ATTACKED HIM AT THE TIME. The wagon on me almost certainly would've gone through, so a) isn't really feasible, considering he hadn't been attacked and I hadn't been defended (note that you say 'few more players' come to my defense when, in your stuff about me, you say only phaen has really defended me. very nice use of stating the facts in the way that best suits making somebody seem scummy / etc).

Skill and I (upon a review) never defended Ray (and are the only two I can see as being confused as doing this). Skill actually only ever says she thinks Ray is not scum. Never says that he is likely 'pro-town'. I just wanted those who hadn't posted to get in here and do so (myself included).

Overall, the case on Apathy works on a few points:
A) His case against RayFrost is weaksauce.
B) His defense is weaksauce. He just refers to things happening but provides no context or evidence for his reasoning. (fuzzy's contradiction, where in the big wide world he gets the VT idea from Prana, where Ray goes for the easy lynch, the arguments that Phaen ignored)
C)

It is also worth note how urgently he wanted to push the lynch, though.
*snip*
I will admit that 80% of my first posts were mostly over the edge, but my idea was to stimulate a REAL reaction out of you, which sort-of worked, and also got some discussion flowing around the other members of the town.

This is major backtracking off an unpopular lynch. Backtracking of this nature, IMO, is scummy.

Reminder: We're at 9 days until deadline. This might be hypocritical, but get in here in post (especially those under attack).

[PaltryExcuse]

I think it was jmurph taking that Ray was reacting to it, and because he reacted that means he must be scum. Not "He reacted to it, and so it means me and him are scum".

That was indeed what I meant.

Sorry I haven't been on, I plan on responding to PaltryExcuse, Apathy, and Ray's exceedingly long post, but it most likely won't be til tomorrow.

the above poster hasn't done anything since the above post

You said you were responding to me. I figured it was a defense of my attack.

[PaltryExcuse]

2. I voted against him to stimulate discussion. Well, I also unvoted him later and haven't (I don't believe) revoted him. Kind of a moot point.

I missed a day realtime, and I agreed previously with fuzzy that you were suspicious so I voted you. Your vote on me could easily have been solved with a question, and I would've given you my answer. Scum often wagon, and express wishy-washyness. They vote for a 'lurker' on the pretense of unexplained points, instead of just prodding them for information and getting their read from that.

I just find it interesting that the advice he gave at the beginning of the game was to not be afraid to vote in order to stimulate discussion, and then when someone did that against him, it became a scumtell.

Overall, I'm not getting a hugely scummy read on Paltry, that just stuck in my mind as something that seemed a bit odd.

Personally, I feel that for all the fuss Ray made about Prana band-wagoning, no one has said anything about this vote. And I'm not just bringing it up because it's against me. Razz Since saying this, PaltryExcuse has not given any other reasons or, actually, contributed anything at all.

It is okay to stimulate discussion and all, but your reasons for voting me were scummy. You seemed to imply my lurking was 'intentional' and not that I missed posting on a Friday. It had reasoning... which made no sense. I interpret it as someone trying to look like they're participating new info (when they're not).

[PaltryExcuse]

Well, that's going to have to be a difference of opinion, I guess. My reasoning was to try to get you to come in and defend your position, since IMO fuzzy's case at that point was exceedingly weak. It wasn't that you had missed posting for any specific length of time (to be honest, the real life days tend to run together for me), it was that I wanted you to back up your vote, since I can't really defend myself against, "So-and-so's case makes sense".

I can accept that, however the rest of my case still stands in my mind.

[PaltryExcuse]

My reads on players:

Skill: Posts sparingly and overall seems unsure of her points, and likes to sit on the fence. Posts a case on jammer recently and waiting for a response to it.

PD: Getting a big town read from him, after he reconsidered his positions in the game, has been a more balanced player and has gotten over his tunnel-vision from earlier, this is good to see and shows a maturity in game which will only benefit the town later on.

Summary, not analysis.

PE: Is scumhunting, disappears at times, which is ok because when he does post, its generally good and has content, leaning town here.

Phaen (redbox): Still catching up it seems, so is posting a lot of summary and showing her views of what happened in the early game. Her behavior is showing signs of town, but my suspicion of the person she replaced is still there and as such I still think this player spot is scum.

Apathy: Scum, at this point I think its completely clearcut. He hasn't done anything all game except make a case against Ray and distance himself from that case, while criticizing the actions that followed. Where am I contradicting myself (with the exception of the FoS that was meant as an IGMEOY, because that has already been mentioned). What reasoning do you have for calling me "inexperienced". What makes someone an "easy lynch" in your eyes since you are accusing RF of going after them.

Copy / paste other people's opinions. (RayFrost's opinion of yours truly, Skill's opinion of redbox/phaen, restating the case on Apathy and problems with it.)

RF: Strong town read from him. Very active and trying to keep the game moving. Defends himself when necessary and is scumhunting well.

jmurph: Concedes points to PE, and has agreed with what everyone else has said before. Tries to build a case on Apathy using what others have said and explaining why she agrees with that, but it seems hollow to me.

Common opinion of both players IMO.

Jammer: Hasn't posted much since replacing in and kelyn hadn't posted much prior to replacing out, as such, I don't know what to think as I haven't been able to get a huge read out of this slot.

So what do you want to know from Jammer?

My answers to others questions of me:

@Skill: Why would you not want to lynch your prime suspect? If I felt that you were my prime suspect, then I would try my hardest to get you lynched. That is why jmurph was jumped on for that statement.

Regarding my case against jmurph: Yes at the beginning it was for not posting content, but it had evolved, especially with her reactions to the second and third votes that were placed on her. She seemingly gave up and didn't even try to defend herself until RF came in and defended her. Now, my case, as it was doesn't hold enough water for my vote, so I will

unvote

, however, that doesn't mean that I still don't find her suspicious, because I do. And before anyone accuses me of tunneling, just because my vote was on a specific person, doesn't mean that I am entirely focused on someone.

Right now, I really don't like what Apathy is doing. He is trying to dumb down PD's actions to a bunch of actions that happened immediately when in fact they happened over the course of several posts and an attack that forced him to reconsider how he was playing the game. Your lack of a defense of yourself, other than trying to discredit PD and trying to push across the RF lynch.

Vote: Apathy

. That should be the third vote on him, bringing him to L-2. Personally, I am ok with his lynch right now.

No longer supports unpopular bandwagon, supports new popular bandwagon?

I dunno. I just don't see any new material from fuzzy despite the long post. Am I missing something fuzzy?

[PaltryExcuse]

Well, what do you want to see from me?

Everything I have said there comes completely from my head and isn't influenced by what anyone else has said. If I have seemingly similar views to others, then so be it, but all of my post is straight from me.

What do I want from jammer? Anything really. He hasn't posted much since his vote on me a week ago, and despite a flurry of activity upon replacing in, that slot hasn't done much of anything.

If I only have your word to go on about it? That doesn't inspire confidence in me believing it. Phaen replaced in and found numerous things left untouched on. Nothing anyone has mentioned has seemed questionable other than those being pointed out? Plus I'm finding myself agreeing with jammer on this point, hence why I isolated that one post of copy / paste:

Overall I got a bad feeling with fuzzy. A lot of (useless)info, asking questions but what is the idea behind it, mentioning and comments most players, yet I don't really know what he thinks.

@Apathy: Come back, claim.

[PaltryExcuse]

Two things:
A) Let's stop with the PBPAs. We're basically telling who the mafia should NK at this point. Keeping some opinions to yourself (your strongest pro-town reads) is a good idea unless otherwise necessary (you're asked directly about the person, defending them etc.).

B) I can see your logic Prana. Does that mean that Ray's VT claim makes you think he's town? (As mafia would have nothing to gain by claiming VT in your case.) It becomes very much a WIFOM situation. So, we're left with analyzing Apathy's play and judging whether we believe the claim or not IF he does claim a power role.

[PaltryExcuse]

In Post 207

Eh, it's obvious prana will hammer if I ever get to L-1.

I'm Vermont, code name VT. Bow before my awesome stateliness.

A PR lynch on Day 1 could spell doom for the town. Not only that, we could force scum to NK someone who is scummy to prevent night information from leaking to the town if Apathy does claim cop or doc and isn't lying. It's a difficult situation. Either way, enough speculating on PRs.

I can definitely see your logic and you've got me in a mental pickle here Prana.

[PaltryExcuse]

Just curious:
@RayFrost: Other than Apathy, who do you suspect (and why)?

[PaltryExcuse]

Paltry, what's your read on apathy? (Out of everyone, discluding me, you're the only one who hasn't made a stance on it, I believe)

Wrongo.

Overall, the case on Apathy works on a few points:
A) His case against RayFrost is weaksauce.
B) His defense is weaksauce. He just refers to things happening but provides no context or evidence for his reasoning. (fuzzy's contradiction, where in the big wide world he gets the VT idea from Prana, where Ray goes for the easy lynch, the arguments that Phaen ignored)
C)

It is also worth note how urgently he wanted to push the lynch, though.
*snip*
I will admit that 80% of my first posts were mostly over the edge, but my idea was to stimulate a REAL reaction out of you, which sort-of worked, and also got some discussion flowing around the other members of the town.

This is major backtracking off an unpopular lynch. Backtracking of this nature, IMO, is scummy.

I just haven't posted on his most recent stuff yet as we're constantly waiting on this 'big post' as he comes back and defends himself against the points people are making. Whether legitimate or not.

The best points against Apathy since my last one are:
1) His opinion on Prana is a quick-changing mess.
2) Fluffing off points. You think Ray is scum, I understand that. However, consider the possibility that you could be wrong. Step back and try to look at it from the Ray-town standpoint instead of assuming Ray-scum.

The ones that don't work are:
1) His emotional reaction and appeals. It's not logical or convincing, but I've seen town do it (even experienced town) so I'm not counting it as a tell at all. Just unconvincing.
2) The town repetitiveness. It's contradictory in his posts as he uses it against Ray, but overall is still not a tell.


Although I think Apathy is scummy, I believe that jmurph3 and fuzzylightning are scummier. I'm going to build a case on fuzzy, so I'll be back ASAP.

[PaltryExcuse]

*cue music*

This post is the one that started worrying me the most about fuzzy:

@Skillz: In a newbie game where I am the IC, I tend to have more informative posts to help people understand game mechanics. If I am addressing a person, I like to keep all of my thoughts condensed into one paragraph rather than bulleting them or only giving two lines at a time. That mostly comes down to the fact that I am used to writing essays for my major, so that is a function of my writing style. As such, I don't believe that I have asked the same question to a single player more than once. Every one of my questions helps me to decide whether or not I believe a person to be town or not, and that is how I scumhunt. By getting people to open up about their case, I can see if their case holds water, or if it is just a sinking ship, which also helps me determine how strongly they believe something.

I can agree with this. Teaching plus, but not really a comment on game. So ignored in favor of good ICing.

@jmurph: You might be getting frustrated, but my case on you really does come down to you aren't posting enough content, and even now, you still aren't. Counting how many people are voting you isn't going to stop them from voting for you.

@RF: I don't like the fact that you are defending jmurph so much. As with any game, if a certain player has come under suspicion, it is their job to provide reasoning that the suspicion on them is unwarranted by posting a valid defense and showing a considered effort in hunting for the scum. I believe, right now, that you are a townie who is just trying to help a newbie out, but it is his job to defend himself.

Upon re-reading, I wouldn't say Ray is defending jmurph. He attacks the case and those jumping on it. Especially considering his 'defense' consists of showing how the case at the time shows jmurph as new, and not scum (although I disagree, but meh, different story). It seems as though you don't like Ray attacking your 'weak case'. Did Ray's 'defense' of jmurph convince you either way of her alignment?

@PD and PE: Don't be so quick to jump on a bandwagon. My vote against jmurph was an attempt to get him involved in the game, I want to see everyone posting content, and just agreeing with my case isn't a strong basis for either of your votes, because frankly, my case wasn't all that strong at the time that I made it.

You're right, the case wasn't strong enough for a lynch. However, it was the strongest one at the time and it did provoke exactly what your vote attempted to do. I find this contradictory.

@PD: I don't really see how RF was putting words in your mouth. It is not often good to lynch a townie, and resigning yourself to the belief that you are going to lynch a townie is not a pro-town choice.

I also never said that I thought Apathy was tunneling, I was just asking him to expand his views, it is rather hard to tunnel in one short series of posts where I don't believe there was a response to anything he said in there either.

Comments on what happens, and doesn't really say his opinion on either issue.

My vote is staying where it is for now, because jmurph hasn't done anything to convince me that they are useful for the town and I am not getting an overly scummy read from anyone right now, and in my mind, useless town is second preferred lynch to scum, which is not to say that I don't think jmurph is scum.

Pretty wishy-washy for 6 1/2 pages of posts.

---

Scary Post #2:

RF: I did have something to say to apathy, I had asked him to elaborate on what it was that he was saying, and to look at other players as well.

PD: Why are you still bringing up a pair of me and apathy when you even admitted that I didn't forget about Apathy and that I have mentioned him. I also don't like how you were mentioning setting up lynches. You have no idea what anyone will flip right now, and therefore should not be looking to lynch someone based on a certain flip, that in itself is inherently scummy. Everything you say is predicated on RF flipping scum, what if he is town?

The stuff at Prana are things I had already mentioned at that point. It's just a repeat of a good point.

RB: My "case" on jmurph3 was entirely that I didn't feel she was contributing to the game in any way and was therefore trying to get her more involved in the game. Voting with people that you find scummy, is scummy. If you think 2 people are scum, then in a game where we know that there are only 2 scum, how could you then vote for person #3?

I agree with RF on the implication that he is jmurph's partner in RB's post, and that direct implication seems very scummy to me.

I can agree with this.

PE: Why is it so necessary to extend the day all the time? A lot of what has happened on this site is people keep extending days longer than necessary and it causes a need for a large number of replacements because people get bored of the game moving slowly and nothing actually happening. I am not saying that we should end today now, but for future reference, if the town is ready for a lynch, then it is ready for a lynch, not it is ready for a lynch but we should wait until deadline to make it.

You weren't the only one, but you continued the line of thought that I was trying to extend the day for day's sake. I specifically mentioned people who needed to catch up and that I didn't agree with the case on the person who was about to be lynched. Two good reasons to extend the day in my books.

*snip IC teaching*

The game that I was with RF in was a Newbie where I was the IC, I made an awful play and spent the day trying to avoid getting lynched and one of the scum was replaced and I was lynched because they wanted to let the replacement catch up.

Are you saying we shouldn't let replacements catch up? I is confuzzled.

Jammer: I would like to see a true analysis of everyone in this game, including the player that you replaced, as if you were a third party, not just saying they are neutral, and from that, make a list of 3 people that you would put at the top of a "scum list"

Skill: I am now confused that you thought I was confused. I ask questions all game, its how I glean information from people. The answers to my questions often bring up follow up questions which are often the direct result of an answer and therefore, analysis of the answer isn't prudent. I don't like to bring forth information unless I am making a legitimate case against someone, or if it is directly asked of me.

Stuff at Jammer: Standard request.
Stuff at Skill: Has been said before by fuzzy.

FoS: PranaDevil

- I do not like how you are trying to direct the town to lynching RayFrost. Unless I am missing something, since you started this "lynch RayFrost" campaign, you have not once taken into account that you might be wrong. You seem to be criticizing Skill for thinking RF is town, and PE for not voting for RF. I believe that this could be a case of town v. town and would like PD to look at everyone else in the game before he mentions RF again.

The contradiction Ray pointed out.

To answer jammer's questions:

I am not liking jmurph. The early talk about her avatar, then non defense of herself (only to be saved by RF), and now the setting up of lynches, which I stated above is scummy, just makes me not like her as town more and more.
I also suspect RB for voting for Person C along with Person A and Person B (both of which he has said he is suspicious of)
My third scummiest read comes from Apathy, he has only posted a couple times and both have been cases against RF with limited mentioning of everyone else

I missed this previously. Hrmm... he actually mentions Apathy as suspicious long before anyone else.

One possibility from the PD-RF debate is town v. town, which I think is the most likely possibility. I didn't like the defense that RF gave of jmurph, but I completely see where he would be coming from as a townie, especially with how quickly the votes followed, and to be completely honest, I was surprised with how quickly a bandwagon was formed. I think both PD and RF are town and this whole argument is coming from two townies confusing each other for scum.

The other half of the contradiction.

In these two posts, fuzzy waffles a lot in my mind, and either repeats himself or others. However, one major point in his favor is that from what I can read he's actually the first to put and suspicion on Apathy. I missed this entirely before. I'm still suspicious though. So one point in his favor.

I feel that the most solid case against jmurph was laid down by not-fuzzy, and his claim of being initially suspicious is true but is admittedly weak. Secondly, I still stand by what I said in this post.

tl;dr:
Why Fuzzy would be scum:
Wishy-washy opinions on the majority of players.
Many points made by him were already made by others.
The case he votes for is made by others.
His jump on the Apathy bandwagon seems opportunistic.
My gut (probably not a convincing point for the rest of you).

Why Fuzzy would be town:
First to mention suspicions of two bandwagonned players.
Problem with my thinking - my top two suspects, I don't think, are bussing at all. I highly doubt both could be scum.

Still, I feel jmurph3 is scummier so my vote stays there.

[PaltryExcuse]

Wrongo.

I did see that post, but you phrased it as if it wasn't your own case on him. It looked more like you were stating the current arguments against him, and then you were going to post reactions/opinions but never did.

It kinda is (although I believe point C in the original post is my own). Apathy's posts have been gone through with a fine-toothed comb by three players (phaen, Ray, and Prana) and so I highlighted the points I agreed with and put in one of my own.

[PaltryExcuse]

In fact, I looked a little back. And noticed you overblow cases(make them look stronger then they are) pretty much anytime.

Totally agree w/ this.
It's not very town-like to blow-up cases, is it?

W-w-w-wait. Wise jammer?

In a post 5 days ago

Mafia

jammer
phaen/redbox (more redbox)
|
fuzzylightning
apathy
|
RayFrost
pranadevil
jmurph

You can secede some points to a scummy player (cause people can make sense through lies) but we still haven't seen that case on jammer. Do you find him more town now? Why did you find him scummy? If your opinion has changed, why?

Secondly, @Ray:

You seem to be saying that I'm going "oh noes, wtf do I do, I'm being found scummy!!!112gfdar!" when only two people, yourself and apathy, have done so while others have stated quite clearly they think I'm town.

More people have stated a town read of me than have stated a scum read of me.

Who has said this beyond Skill?

Who had said that at that point? (And as it turned out, Skill had just said 'not scum' at that point.)

[PaltryExcuse]

@fuzzy: My scum-read on you dropped considerably when I found that comment on Apathy. I was actually planning on voting you before finding that... but it changed my mind.
Plus, with a little meta reading, I find you're a bit more aggressive in other town games. But I really don't put that much into meta without playing a game with someone first.

The thing about you repeating others' arguments is that you do it consistently. Whether you agree with majority or not is up to opinion, however, I don't see much in the way of independence in your reasoning when you're not doing the IC thing. I, admittedly, will miss a day and come back with different points than others who have been posting consistently. Phaen seems to come up with a different point of view despite replacing in.

What I find contradictory about you advising me and Prana to not bandwagon so quickly is that the bandwagon itself inspired the response from others I thought you would want as town. The point you had wasn't a bad one for that point in the game and, although not lynch worthy, was worth some pressure. About the L-2 quicklynch, I can't see it happening as we seem to have thinking players (even at that point) so scum wouldn't be that foolhardy.

Honestly, Paltry, I don't think either of your two reasons for why Fuzzy would be town are particularly good. And if, after your long post and going back through everything, those are the only two reasons you came up with, that kind of confirms the suspicions that I have.

I disagree. The first is a small counter to the claim that fuzzy isn't acting completely independently. And the second one is pretty convincing to me as if I don't see bussing happening, and my two top scum reads are attacking one another, I know I'm wrong on at least one.

[PaltryExcuse]

My vote is staying where it is for now, because jmurph hasn't done anything to convince me that they are useful for the town and I am not getting an overly scummy read from anyone right now, and in my mind, useless town is second preferred lynch to scum, which is not to say that I don't think jmurph is scum.

While you say that you still think I'm scum, you do emphasize that even if I wasn't, you would still vote for me because I'm useless. Thus saying that you would lynch me because I'm useless. Your words, not mine.

If we're arguing semantics, it reads to me that fuzzy says your scummiest in his mind, and then gives a worst-case scenario if he's wrong. (A little covering of his own butt, but not your interpretation.)

Secondly, one of the most common ways, in my mind, for scum to add a little bit of unwarranted authority to their case is by linking to the wiki.

And to quote from the wiki on the definition of tunnel vision,

Confirmation Bias or Tunnel Vision is when a player becomes convinced by their own arguments by virtue of how long or how strong they hold them.

which, IMO, is what you've been doing.

This doesn't really build on a case against fuzzy even if he was. (Example, if you think Prana is likely town, he has admittedly tunneled. Joy upon joys.) Tunneling is done by town, and not by scum. For scum, it's just building a bad case. You actually don't refute, in my mind, anything that's said. When ever you defend yourself, it comes down to a difference in opinion. Well, IMO, you're most likely scum.

I humbly petition a lynch on jmurph3. Join me in glory.

[PaltryExcuse]

My view on Apathy? Hasn't changed.

I'd still much rather lynch jmurph3. But, I plan to be on as close to deadline as possible to lynch if necessary.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Mod: Could you extend the day?

I'll just re-iterate where I stand for my three scum targets to make things clear for the replacement, Zorblag:
1) jmurph3
2) fuzzylightning
3) Apathy/Zorblag

[PaltryExcuse]

@jammer: What are you views on jmurph3?

[PaltryExcuse]

Vote: fuzzylightning

I think it's pretty improbable I'm going to get the lynch I want today, so #2 is a go.

[PaltryExcuse]

10 hours and counting;

we need a lynch peoples. Anyone who is not voting should be voting for either fuzzy or Apathy

now

.

[PaltryExcuse]

4 Hrs.

We're getting disturbingly close to deadline.

[PaltryExcuse]

BALLS! I wanted to keep playing today.

Go town, and sorry fuzzy.

Thanks for modding Kison! Awesome pictures.

[PaltryExcuse]

Disappointed to see town lost. Also disappointed to know that I'll never know why I was killed. (Especially considering my view on jmurph3 who turned out to be town). Still, good job scum and congrats!

Thanks for modding Kison!