Newbie 906 - Game Over!

[PranaDevil]

Hold on, where does redbox say you are jmurph's scum buddy? He merely states that jmurph could be scum with someone else telling her to keep quiet and let them take the heat, not "Ray's saying to let him take the heat".

redbox could be inferring me, or Apathy, or anyone else who's posting a bit, just because they aren't defending murph doesn't mean they aren't with her.

Which just sounds like, once again, you are doing a job of trying to twist someone elses comments around to attack them, just like you did with me earlier.

[RayFrost]

I'm the guy taking the most heat from that point.

I've had the most suspicion, while you, apathy, an sich haven't experienced that much, realtively.

[PranaDevil]

We may not have, but redbox has been backing you up, which leads me to believe he didn't think it was you, and instead thought it was someone else who was distancing themselves from jmurph.

Your response to him has, as far as I'm concerned, made me even more convinced you are scum and got jumpy with his comments towards jmurph, put 2 and 2 together and came up with 10 somehow, and decided he was insinuating you, when I saw nothing of the sort.

[RayFrost]

ummm...

who here is taking the most heat? me.

"advised jmurph to stay silent while [jmurph's] partner takes the heat"

this seems to be a logical continuation for me, not some random twisting of his words to find him scummy.

It's not even my main point against him. It's a small part of the bigger picture.

The fact you are concentrating on that single part and ignoring the rest shows a bad case of tunnel vision, which is a sad infliction.

Are you, by any chance, a lamont craston alt?

[PranaDevil]

No, I agree that certain parts of his post seem rather worthless, and agree in that much, but that doesn't change that part of it was worthwhile, and your response to it is much bigger to note in my eyes.

and who the smeg is lamont craston? This is only the second game I've ever played of mafia, the the first one is only on day two itself.

I think the fact I had also suggested a Ray/murph team has also got you rattled, as I suggested that earlier, and redbox posted an idea that murph's partner was keeping her quiet. Not state who, it was you who jumped to the conclusion that it meant you, nobody stated it was though. Just because you are (currently) taking the most heat, doesn't necessarily follow that redbox thought it was you.

In fact, in his view I was seeming the most scummy as based on his vote, so I could have assumed he perhaps meant I was telling her to let me take the heat instead. Which is why I feel that you jumping at that part has me almost as sure as I think I'll ever be of D1 scum short of someone waving their hands around shouting "hey, I'm scum!"

[RayFrost]

*shouts* "Hey, I'm scum!!!!!! LYNCH ME NOW!"

Lamont is a guy I know from my first game of mafia evar.

I'm not bothered by people suggesting teams. It's when the logic behind them isn't good that I get bothered.

I've been called scum by far more people than you with far better cases than your own. I've come to l-1 and been less phased than you think I am from you voting me.

Seriously.

You seem to be saying that I'm going "oh noes, wtf do I do, I'm being found scummy!!!112gfdar!" when only two people, yourself and apathy, have done so while others have stated quite clearly they think I'm town.

More people have stated a town read of me than have stated a scum read of me.

How in the fook would I be "rattled" by two people saying "omfg, he's scum" or similar?

Also, redbox didn't need to

state it directly

for it to be implied or inferred.

Him thinking you are scum is quite clearly denoted by him as separate.

One of my major problems that I just realized was how redbox attempted to create a solid link between myself and skill, so I guess that could've colored my inference of what he said on the matter of jmurph's buddy.

It doesn't detract from the rest of my case.

[Kison]

Day One: Vote Count

jmurph3 (

2

) : fuzzylightning, PaltryExcuse
RayFrost (

2

) : PranaDevil, Apathy
PranaDevil (

1

) : redbox
PaltryExcuse (

1

) : jmurph3
redbox (

1

) : RayFrost

Not Voting (

2

) : kelyn, Skill006

With

9

alive, it will take

5

votes to lynch.

The day's deadline is currently set to:

February 24th, 2010, 11:59:59 PM, EST

Kelyn has requested replacement.

[jmurph3]

So that would, in theory, give us a scum team of Ray & jmurph, which I would count as a possible.

Firstly, I would like to say that I in no way asked that Ray defend me as vehemently as he did. In fact, I'm just as confused as all of you as to why he did. He is defending me of his own accord...and that worries me.

jmurph3: Even though I don't get the case fuzzy seems to have made for some of you, the lack of real content in her posts leads me to feel she may have something to hide and doesn't quite know how to go about it. My guess is she is inexperienced scum with a partner advising her not to say too much while the partner takes the heat.

Redbox's stuff about jmurph is a

direct

implication that I'm jmurphs scumbuddy. Contrast this with his supposed read on me below.

I don't understand how you jumped to this conclusion. Perhaps you're just trying to cover for yourself because you did come out rather strongly in my favor. Or perhaps you're freaking out because you think that this supposed implication is too close to the truth: that you're scum.

Also, redbox didn't need to

state it directly

for it to be implied or inferred.

Again, I don't understand your logic here. You're probably the only one who inferred it was you...until you started freaking out about how it was you.

Based on that, and on Apathy's long and thorough list of reasons, I am going to

unvote; Vote: RayFrost

.

[redbox]

@Ray: I think you are far too smart to have made so many faulty conclusions by accident.

Not having a read on some people is scummy? The reason I included everyone in my list (and gave brief explanations as to why I had no read on some of them) might sound familiar to you:

Looking back, I don't like how fuzzy had no comments/questions/etc for apathy.

Deliberately leaving a player out of something like that makes me suspicious.

Callin' scum right there.

You getting the (SE) title was a simple copy/paste oversight. Please consider that nit picked.

Overanalyzing is scummy? I would have said that overanalyzing is what this game is about. We have no "real" information; we must attempt to find meaning in the minute details of the words of total strangers.

As for my case on Prana (OMGUS, smokescreen, etc.), it was based mainly on your exchanges with him -- a small sampling:

Your vote contains very little content, makes your stance mild rather than solid despite the vote (Scum keeping the option of running away from the wagon open), and overall has very little that can really be considered helpful.

It's taking a timid stance while voting, which is a form of fencesitting while creating a thin smokescreen to hide that fact by voting.

...

Your reasoning for voting me is flimsy at best, since it can be summed up in "i dun like u" covered by a thin film of BS.

And finally, the fact that even PranaDevil and jmurph3, the two I have firmly and clearly declared to be suspicious to me (in large part because of your posts), appear to be as stunned as I am by your blatant misrepresentaion that I proclaimed you and jmurph to be scumbuddies can lead me to only one conclusion:

unvote; Vote:RayFrost

[RayFrost]

I am now at lynch-1, as in one more vote lynches me.

Great.

[RayFrost]

The hilarious thing about this wagon is 1. the ignoring of 90% of my defenses, 2. the speed at which it happened, 3. the flimsy logic used by the latest voters, and 4. the fact it boils down to how "over the top" I am when I post.

The over the top ness can be renamed as

passion

. But, eh, ignoring defenses seems to be a habit in this town already.

Let's tick off the things people are ignoring, shall we?

1. defense against apathy (read earlier posts)

2. explanation of my defending jmurph (YOU DEFEND TOWN READS FROM BEING LYNCHED IF YOU ARE TOWN)

3. defense against prana (note, jmurph, that your logic follows his almost exactly and that I've already made a post about it)

also, redbox's vote is the worst out of the bunch.

It is setting me within safe scum-hammer range, for one.

It is also saying "the other two don't like you, so you are obv scum!" It doesn't provide any real analysis as to why

he

is voting

me

more than

others

are voting me. He is, in fact, voting me because

his scum reads are voting me

.

That's the epitome of failure. You are voting with the people you think are scum.

Seriously.

WTF.

I'd also like to point out that my problem is not with you (redbox) lacking reads. It's the fact you

didn't say anything worthwhile

about some people, so I didn't know what your reads of those people even was.

A few of your conclusions were "so-and-so may or may not be scum" being the majority of your actual text about them. Your analysis is minimal.

If you had said directly you think this person has done such and such things and what your reads from them were and then said not sure, that'd be fine.

Just saying "possibly related to Jon Van Neumann?" instead of saying anything about the actual player or your read of them is

not

cool.

[RayFrost]

Kelyn has requested replacement.

Gah. Replacement needed already?

[PaltryExcuse]

I'm here. Friday was a busy day. Could I ask that someone unvotes RayFrost? I want to catch up BEFORE a lynch (and a lynch this early seems foolhardy).

[RayFrost]

If I get lynched, the person that did the hammer vote is scum and should be lynched.

As it is, 80% of the discussion has been me defending myself and people ignoring the defenses and still calling me scummy. :/

[PranaDevil]

I have to ask why a lynch this early is "foolhardy". Just because there's a 3 week deadline doesn't mean we have to wait it out until day 20 before deciding who to lynch if we feel there's enough information (and personally I think there is)

I'm happy with my vote, and I'm sorry Paltry, but I don't see removing it would do us any good. Anyone removing a vote wasn't set on it in the first place, and if we're going to vote Ray at all, especially with us all having reasons like we do, then we want him lynched. Removing it would be detrimental to the whole idea of "we think he's scum, lynch him".

[RayFrost]

It also prevents somebody hammering (scum if they aren't already on my wagon) without getting suspicions placed on them, which means easy mislynch where you guys have virtually no discussion that doesn't in some way relate to me.

In fact, it means the scum have the highest advantage in that they have yet to give many reads, and there will be an easy "lynch the mislynchers!" push opportunity, which means scum could quite simply dominate the lot of yah.

Just sayin'.

In addition, the fact you guys have not entertained

any

other possibilities gives you (if any of you are scum) the ability to vote just about anybody else on the wagon, since none of your reads have really been a confident "I think this person is town" read.

I would also like to point out, prana, that you are ignoring my points against redbox in that he's

voting with the people he thinks are scum

.

Why would you vote who you think the scum are voting, hmmm?

Because you don't think they are scum, and you are, in fact, scum, so you know this is an easy mislynch and hop on while contradicting logic by going with your supposed scum reads.

[PaltryExcuse]

On jmurph's responses to the 2, then 3, votes on him:
There wasn't even a defense, or an attempt to scumhunt (the main reason I voted for him. His evidence was weak on his 'pseudo-accusation' on RayFrost. The problem with 'getting over-defensive' and the like as a reason to vote is that you don't know the people personally so you can't know whether that's how they act as town or scum. Secondly, people can hide their initial reactions. They can calm down / edit their posts to mask them.
His new vote on me:

Right now, I'd much rather

Vote: jmurph13

. fuzzy's case makes sense right now.

Personally, I feel that for all the fuss Ray made about Prana band-wagoning, no one has said anything about this vote. And I'm not just bringing it up because it's against me. Since saying this, PaltryExcuse has not given any other reasons or, actually, contributed anything at all.

Therefore, I am going to

Vote: PaltryExcuse

.

Seems to be for two reasons:
A) He doesn't like the Prana bandwagon.
B) I don't post on a Friday night. (My last post before these was a Thursday before dinner.)

It just seems like someone trying to participate instead of actively doing so.
Next we have jmurph's longest post in the game so far:

So that would, in theory, give us a scum team of Ray & jmurph, which I would count as a possible.

Firstly, I would like to say that I in no way asked that Ray defend me as vehemently as he did. In fact, I'm just as confused as all of you as to why he did. He is defending me of his own accord...and that worries me.

What exactly worries you about him defending you? Analyzing bandwagons is actually an effective way of weeding out scum. I might be tooting my own horn here, but check out Day 1 of Newbie 865. My analysis on a bandwagon I didn't agree with actually allowed me to catch scum Day 1. If anything, I like what RF did here.

jmurph3: Even though I don't get the case fuzzy seems to have made for some of you, the lack of real content in her posts leads me to feel she may have something to hide and doesn't quite know how to go about it. My guess is she is inexperienced scum with a partner advising her not to say too much while the partner takes the heat.

Redbox's stuff about jmurph is a

direct

implication that I'm jmurphs scumbuddy. Contrast this with his supposed read on me below.

I don't understand how you jumped to this conclusion. Perhaps you're just trying to cover for yourself because you did come out rather strongly in my favor. Or perhaps you're freaking out because you think that this supposed implication is too close to the truth: that you're scum.

Actually, I assumed it was RayFrost as well. He was the only one of the three 'experienced' players getting heat at the time IMO. (IIRC, fuzzy had a weak vote from Skill at the time).

Also, redbox didn't need to

state it directly

for it to be implied or inferred.

Again, I don't understand your logic here. You're probably the only one who inferred it was you...until you started freaking out about how it was you.

Based on that, and on Apathy's long and thorough list of reasons, I am going to

unvote; Vote: RayFrost

.

Overall, this was all commented on by Prana, and is the only analysis jmurph provides for his vote.

On the whole, not very townie.

@Prana: Continuing a day where conversation is still happening, and we're expecting a replacement (for kelyn) and they need to catch up, plus my RL-hecticness and need to catch up are three reasons to unvote. We see that you suspect RayFrost, and no one would expect any different from you at this point. Unvote, and give me and others time.

More to come.

[PaltryExcuse]

Reposting to highlight to any voting Ray:

@Prana: Continuing a day where conversation is still happening, and we're expecting a replacement (for kelyn) and they need to catch up, plus my RL-hecticness and need to catch up are three reasons to unvote. We see that you suspect RayFrost, and no one would expect any different from you at this point. Unvote, and give me and others time.

[PranaDevil]

unvote

Okay Paltry, fair point, but I'm unvoting for two reasons, your point is the minor one, the major is I'm going to go read all posts Ray's made (and read your last one Paltry) to respond to all things he thinks are being avoided.

[jmurph3]

@Paltry: Firstly, I'm a girl. Just saying.

Secondly,

So that would, in theory, give us a scum team of Ray & jmurph, which I would count as a possible.

Firstly, I would like to say that I in no way asked that Ray defend me as vehemently as he did. In fact, I'm just as confused as all of you as to why he did. He is defending me of his own accord...and that worries me.

What exactly worries you about him defending you?

This worries me because it the general consensus after he started defending me was that he and I were working together. Since I, at least, am not working with him, I don't like being associated with someone against my will, or my better judgment.

Based on that, and on Apathy's long and thorough list of reasons, I am going to

unvote; Vote: RayFrost

.

Overall, this was all commented on by Prana, and is the only analysis jmurph provides for his vote.

On the whole, not very townie.

So because I agree with Prana's logic, I'm therefore not acting like a townie? Forgive me, but that seems like a very weak argument to me.

On the whole, I can agree to giving you and kelyn's replacement more time, but for the moment, my vote on Ray still stands.

[jmurph3]

My previous post should read "it

became

the general consensus".

Sorry about that.

[PranaDevil]

Initial note: The post numbers I'll be referencing will only match up if you change the "display post" thing at the bottom to just Ray, so it shows just his posts.

(Post 32)

First off, you began by pressuring people to read your previous games. Now that may be just to show that you post a lot anyway, but personally basing a game around meta isn't such a good thing. It's one thing if you play with the same handful of guys all the time, but on a site like this someone's gameplay can change slightly between games based on roles anyway. So wanting people to read other games you're in, seemingly as a defense no less, seems worrying.

(posts 33 and 34)

I'll also agree that you don't necessarily have something to hide by posting a lot (chances are I shall be doing the same, though not to Ray's extent overall because I don't play ten billion games at a time :p), I have a tendancy to ramble when I get going, and so it tends to be either a short burst, or a long multi paragraph ramble, I rarely land something in between, at least from what I've noticed of my posts in the past 10 years of being online.

(Post 36)

Apathy did make a bad call on the WIFOM thing, but it didn't come across as anything but a simple disagreement on views, and sure as hell wasn't such an issue as to make me throw votes in his direction.

However he made a point about that you've been posting a lot and not really saying much (at that point he's correct, and I'll decide as I continue reading if indeed you have said much beyond defensiveness, random votes, and OMGUS votes).

I also didn't see Apathy insult you, a light hearted joke perhaps, but not an insult, so it came across sort of, well, like an appeal for emotion to be honest.

(Posts 37 & 38)

You begin jumping on me for jumping on a bandwagon to get information, not that long after you had been stating that "wagons are good" thereby going right back on your own comments, and subsequently ignored my reasons for doing so and pushing people in my direction. (Something you are now saying is a bad thing when you're on the opposite end of it, hm?)

You then spend a few posts arguing something I never said, and putting words in my mouth, something scum would do, not something town would do.

For a few posts we then have the "jmurph claimed townie" thing which again wasn't beneficial to town either, just served to go nowhere and draw attention to that and off the issue that had been happening (namely fingering you as scum).

Also you try saying Skill chose not to read the thread through by voting for you, just because you made a defense doesn't mean everyone should instantly feel it needs to be taken at face value, same as there's not much need to give reasons if the reasons have already been made elsewhere.

(Post 52)

This is just long, and goes nowhere as the only points that are defended are the weak parts of Apathy's post, not the main ones from halfway through Apathy's post. The majority of it however is simply pointless issues like the town/townie one, and going back to the "bad wagon" stuff despite already confirming that myself and fuzzy had reasons to do it.

(Post 54)

This is where you AGAIN put words in my mouth, claiming I'm saying you're a cop, when I blatantly have no clue. For something that was a clear as day example you try and twist it round to me PR fishing, which is an obvious falseness and just makes you look scummier.

(Post 55)

redbox now gets the brunt of the flames for simply making his mind up publicly about people? Oh, and of course the fact you're putting words in his mouth too (that's three times you've done that Ray, twice on me, once on redbox).

Worthless jibber jabber meant to avoid giving stances on people is scummy.

Something I will note that reading through some of this, you've been doing yourself, as recently as post 52 in fact really.

aaaand... that's about it.

I don't see where your 80% defensiveness comes into it, a lot of the time it's been out and out putting words where there weren't any, and deliberately trying to turn people on others for something they haven't said, but you've seen you can get something out of to try getting the heat off you.

Your defenses have been next to nonexistant, and laughable, such as

post 63

, where you post:

In addition, the fact you guys have not entertained any other possibilities gives you (if any of you are scum) the ability to vote just about anybody else on the wagon, since none of your reads have really been a confident "I think this person is town" read.

Which you're basically saying unless we can confirm the 7 town we shouldn't lynch, and that nobody is making any other possibilities. Despite me saying I thought you and jmurph were working together, and I still think that's a possibility. And the fact I posted that it's possible Apathy and fuzz are a team.

Just because at this moment in time I (and others) think you are the strongest possibility at being scum doesn't change that other thoughts are milling around.

Oh, and finally, as for redbox thinking he might be voting with scum... he also wouldn't be voting for you if he didn't think you were scum (unless he is scum obviously), but if I had 3 people I thought could be scum, I wouldn't hang back and not vote just because I might be voting with scum, I'd vote for someone I think is scum whether other scum are voting or not.

So... that all being said, I don't think anyone else should remove their vote from Ray. I'll be returning with my vote end of Sunday/early Monday, although if another vote turns up on him, I shall add my vote back on and get the scum lynched.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Paltry: Firstly, I'm a girl. Just saying.

Eep. I'm sorry. No excuses on this end. I should've looked at the little symbol instead of assuming.

There's nothing wrong with you agreeing with someone, but my point is that it seems as though you tried to pass it off as originally your thought, and as something new to the table. You don't even mention Prana, but you mention Apathy's case as a reason to vote RayFrost. It just seems that you've latched on to the case with the most steam behind it.
Also, was I right in why you were voting for me? If so, people will miss a day and it's not scummy. RL stuff will come up.
I just don't see someone pro-town pushing this way.

On Prana:
Overall, you seem to be scum-hunting, and that gives me pro-town feelings. However, I definitely feel at times you've tunnelled yourself pretty deep into the assumption RayFrost is scum.
I definitely agree with you on the bandwagon not doing much harm. L-2 is not close enough for a lynch, although the case was relatively weak (I never would've have lynched her on that alone). My intentions in doing so were to spark a little more exposition from jmurph.
You claim to have done the same thing. So why, when jmurph started posting, did you not prod for more information? Why leave her alone now?
Secondly:

Personally, if you're not willing to put some pressure on someone to see what they do, that would be less pro-town than trying to squeeze some information out of them that might be useful.

What I've gained from this thus far is that Ray is attacking me and hoping others will follow his lead after getting extremely defensive about jmurph, and while that isn't inherently scummy, it depends, to me, on the player, and also how much information you have on the person.

These two seem to contradict each other a bit.
In post A, you defend yourself by saying squeezing information is pro-town. Then, in post B, you attack Ray for attempting to get others to vote with him, and also get more information out of you.

@Prana and jmurph: Who do you think redbox was referring to when he mentioned the more experienced player would take the heat?

@Redbox: Who were you referring to?

@RayFrost: What points that you have made are people ignoring?

More to come part deux.

[PranaDevil]

I was voting murph to get more information from her because she hadn't been giving any. I highly doubt anyone would say I've not been trying to scum hunt and draw information out of people, factor in that his entire theory of going after me seems to stem from me going after him on actual points, and they become two different issues that cannot be compared.

As for who I think redbox was talking about. I don't think he had anyone specifically in mind, and was just putting that idea out there rather than holding onto it. Isn't it better that if you have a view, that you mention it to the town so others may be able to add to it, than hide it from view where nobody can comment?

But being that he seemed to be thinking I was scummy as well, then it would make sense if he thought me, and figured my attacking jmurph was to distance myself from her (Hell, if I was in his shoes, I would figure that as a possibility anyway, just because on day one everything's a possibility and it's focusing on what you feel is most scummy that's important).

As for me leaving jmurph alone, I don't think she's as much of an issue as Ray is right now, that's not to say I am throwing away any possibility of her being scum, it's still likely, though the fact she has since wondered why Ray defended her so much means either she's town and feels he was defending her so much to appear pro-town, or she's scum and was wondering why he was defending her to such an extent it was drawing more heat towards it instead.

It could well be that Ray and jmurph are scum, and Ray's defending of her seemed strange, so she distanced herself quickly from him by voting for him and questioning his defence of her.

Either way, all it has done is make me more confirmed on Ray than anything else.

[jmurph3]

@Paltry: Firstly, I'm a girl. Just saying.

Eep. I'm sorry. No excuses on this end. I should've looked at the little symbol instead of assuming.

No worries. Just wanted to get that cleared up.

There's nothing wrong with you agreeing with someone, but my point is that it seems as though you tried to pass it off as originally your thought, and as something new to the table. You don't even mention Prana, but you mention Apathy's case as a reason to vote RayFrost. It just seems that you've latched on to the case with the most steam behind it.

You're completely right on this one. I was agreeing with Prana's reasoning, and I thus should have stated as such. I did think that I had added a bit of my own interpretation, but perhaps it was not enough to be seen as my own thoughts.

Also, was I right in why you were voting for me? If so, people will miss a day and it's not scummy. RL stuff will come up.
I just don't see someone pro-town pushing this way.

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure if I understand what you were saying about this. I voted for you because I wanted you to defend your position against me a bit more, especially since you weren't involved in any of the conversation after that. However, you were not on to defend yourself (I think) before my switching to Ray, whose evidence against him greatly outweighed the conversation I wished to stimulate with you.

@Prana and jmurph: Who do you think redbox was referring to when he mentioned the more experienced player would take the heat?

This one I'm going to give one hundred percent credit to Prana for:

redbox could be inferring me, or Apathy, or anyone else who's posting a bit, just because they aren't defending murph doesn't mean they aren't with her.

I'm not denying that redbox could easily have meant Ray, I'm just saying that his reaction of (pardon the paraphrase) instantly accusing redbox of accusing him, whether implicitly or explicitly, wasn't necessarily valid. I think - and please correct me if I'm wrong - that Prana would agree with me on that point.

Also, I think that the other evidence against Ray (see Prana's previous post and Apathy's post) has a lot more weight than the argument about what redbox did or did not mean. That was just the straw that, for me, broke the camel's back.