Newbie 906 - Game Over!

[PaltryExcuse]

I disagree about redbox's comment. He seemed to have some sort of motive. He specifically mentioned that jmurph was inexperienced scum with a partner taking the heat. For me, that phrase instantly refers to Ray, fuzzy, or me.

I was voting murph to get more information from her because she hadn't been giving any. I highly doubt anyone would say I've not been trying to scum hunt and draw information out of people, factor in that his entire theory of going after me seems to stem from me going after him on actual points, and they become two different issues that cannot be compared.

Whose theory are you talking about? Please rephrase this as I'm very confused as to what the majority of this is saying. I think it's Ray you're talking about, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say. And what does Ray have to do with your reasoning for voting jmurph?

[PaltryExcuse]

@jmurph3: A lot of your post tends to agree with me that my suspicions are valid. So, I'm going to keep 'em.
The part about you voting me was not an attack on anything I had said, but the fact that I wasn't on for a day. It seemed that I was being voted for because I disappeared. Plus you made sure to highlight the fact that it wasn't OMGUS. If a case is solid, don't worry about people claiming OMGUS. OMGUS isn't scummy, it just can weaken a person's points. But if they can't defend themselves and can only go "OMGUS, OMGUS", then the OMGUS claim is invalid and really that may be a solid case.

Also, I think that the other evidence against Ray (see Prana's previous post and Apathy's post) has a lot more weight than the argument about what redbox did or did not mean. That was just the straw that, for me, broke the camel's back.

What is most prevalent about the case on Ray that has you scared and why? You just say: Look at these posts by other people. I have no idea what parts of their cases lead you to believe Ray is scum.

[PranaDevil]

I'm talking about Ray, sorry. I should have been more clear.

Basically, what you were asking was why my posts contradicted each other.

In post A (from your previous quotes from me) I was mentioning putting pressure on someone who didn't seem that actively involved in the game to see if anything came of it (It did, in the form of Ray, but it did).

In post B I was pointing out that Ray was going after me and hoping others would follow (exactly the opposite of what I was doing with jmurph), which really only amounted to him going after me as an OMGUS type of deal. Also there was no need to "put pressure on me" because I have been talking pretty constantly anyway, and backing up my reasoning.

Therefore both are different issues, and there's no contradiction as they are from different points in the game.

[RayFrost]

Eh, prana's saying I was discrediting skill when I said skill either didn't read the thread

or

didn't see the defense as worthwhile but isn't saying so.

Taking words out of my mouth, woohoo.

How about I defend myself "properly" after you explain to me, prana, what "proper" defense from a case is, since you obviously have a better handle on it than I do?

Defensiveness is not a scum tell, over-defensiveness is.

Articulate the difference or you can't use it as a tell. My explanation for my defending is

I defend myself

. There's no real defense against "omfg, you are defending yourself, explain why now!"

It's equivalent to trying to defend against somebody calling you a racist. You can't say "hey, I have [insert race here] friends" as a defense, and just saying "you are wrong" isn't sufficient.

I wasn't using calling myself town as a defense, so that's taking my words out of context deliberately.

Prana, your summary of my posts comes from the perspective of "obv scum and everything he says are lies! LIES LIKE THE CAKE, I TELL YOU!" in how I'm reading it.

also, I can't really do much scumhunting if all that's in the thread is people attacking me. Lack of variety, so I can't get a good read.

I can't say somebody is scum because all they've done is attack me (prana, apathy), so there's not much else to look at.

I can't say others are scum due to lack of posting (skill, PE, fuzzy, kelyn, jmurph).

I can say redbox is scummy due to OMGUS (voting me directly after voting him with such terrible reasoning as "the people I think are scum are voting this guy, so he's scum"), voting directly after the people he thinks to be scum, and giving little analysis of a few players that, although they haven't posted very many times, would've been able to have been given some kind of read rather than jibber jabber.

saying "blah blah blah, jibber jabber, neutral read for now" is fine. "blah blah blah jibber jabber, no read given" is not.

Also, his attempt to link me with skill is also rather scummy, imo.

[PranaDevil]

Defensiveness is not a scum tell, over-defensiveness is.

Yup.

As for "proper" defense. I would say not saying people are trying to claim others are certain roles, not jumping on someone for an obvious light hearted joke outside of RVS, don't go contradicting yourself by in one breathe saying a wagon is good, then suddenly a wagon is bad, and then ignore the reason that said wagon appeared for ages until it's seen that nobody was going to back you up.

Sorry Ray, but all I can see is that I've come up with some very good points about you, and all along you've done the "yeah but you did this", which is just something you've somehow made up from nothing, such as claiming I was hunting roles, or claiming I was trying to get a lynching bandwagon rolling, or in redbox's case, claiming he was insinuating you, when there's no evidence to that, just your assumption, and subsequent attack on him for it.

[RayFrost]

Defensiveness is not a scum tell, over-defensiveness is.

Yup.

As for "proper" defense. I would say not saying people are trying to claim others are certain roles, not jumping on someone for an obvious light hearted joke outside of RVS, don't go contradicting yourself by in one breathe saying a wagon is good, then suddenly a wagon is bad, and then ignore the reason that said wagon appeared for ages until it's seen that nobody was going to back you up.

Sorry Ray, but all I can see is that I've come up with some very good points about you, and all along you've done the "yeah but you did this", which is just something you've somehow made up from nothing, such as claiming I was hunting roles, or claiming I was trying to get a lynching bandwagon rolling, or in redbox's case, claiming he was insinuating you, when there's no evidence to that, just your assumption, and subsequent attack on him for it.

PE would agree with me in the assumption. And it wasn't even the majority of my case against him.

Also, I explained the difference between wagons and already admitted that I was incorrect in my belief against the wagon (thinkint it was to-lynch when it was for pressure and admitting I was wrong on that already ahppened, so yeah)

I never said others were claiming so-and-so is a certain role.

My comment toward you was to say

don't speculate on roles

because I misunderstood what you were doing.

If I'm not allowed to attack people while I'm being attacked, then you should really get the fook off my back so I can do so.

If you would be so kind as to lay out the case point by point WITHOUT using quotes (those jumble it), I'll respond to it point by point.

With a near 100% likelihood, you'll be like "inadequate defense!" but, eh.

Also, just saying "yup" to my defensiveness/over-defensiveness comment doesn't mark the difference between them.

Also, if I haven't really defended myself, how can you make an over-defensive claim against me?

That's contradictory.

Either I've defended myself from the points (and was over-defensive in some way) or I haven't.

[PaltryExcuse]

I'm going to continue the analysis tomorrow, but I would like to say that it is in our best interest to let RayFrost claim if someone is going to hammer.

(This game is moving seriously fast if we lynch so soon. We have a 3 week deadline. Let's use some more of it folks.)

[RayFrost]

Eh, it's obvious prana will hammer if I ever get to L-1.

I'm Vermont, code name VT. Bow before my awesome stateliness.

[PranaDevil]

I can't really lay it out much more "case by case" than I did in the earlier long post. That was quite blatantly case by case all the way through.

Also, it's the way you've been attempting (but failing) to defend yourself, it's been very aggressive and searching for any holes someone gives you, even when you need to attempt to create the hole to latch onto. Hence how you've managed to be "over defensive" without actually having a defense, so to speak.

Yes you did admit you were wrong about the wagon, however this was a long time after it was pointed out to you, as it had to be done multiple times. So to me that was saying you eventually backed off when you realized it was going nowhere to put the heat on someone else. (As it wound up putting more heat on you).

As for redbox, your "majority" was that he... didn't have any readings on some people yet? Why not lynch everyone else while we're at it then? It's hard to give thoughts on someone if you, yourself, have no thoughts on that person. Would it have been better if he made them up?

But it was that you assumed it meant you that made me more curious about it, especially on re-reading it when he never once said it was an experienced player giving her hints. Just that she was an inexperienced scum. Therefore it could, in theory, be anyone who was perhaps more experienced, not necessarily the SE or IC people. That could mean anything from someone who has spent time looking over the game and the various roles and such (like myself) to someone who has spent time playing it in real life (like kelyn).

[PranaDevil]

and PE, why do we actively need to spend a long time on things if current activities and actions lead us to possibly scum.

But I am getting the feel that you are trying to buy time for Ray, and not for town based reasons. I'm starting to get the feeling you're his scum buddy, and are trying to appeal to others to keep him alive, and keep discussion going, so you can find some way to take the heat off him, and so he can try twisting what others say more.

and yes, if it gets to L-1 for Ray, I will drop the hammer. I said as much earlier.

[RayFrost]

Why are you continually ignoring the point that he's voting with the people he's said he thinks are scum?

It's starting to get annoying, and it shows quite clearly that you are not fully reading my posts.

I've made that point multiple times now.

You've not mentioned it multiple times now.

Seriously.

[RayFrost]

and PE, why do we actively need to spend a long time on things if current activities and actions lead us to possibly scum.

But I am getting the feel that you are trying to buy time for Ray, and not for town based reasons. I'm starting to get the feeling you're his scum buddy, and are trying to appeal to others to keep him alive, and keep discussion going, so you can find some way to take the heat off him, and so he can try twisting what others say more.

and yes, if it gets to L-1 for Ray, I will drop the hammer. I said as much earlier.

lolwut?

Guys, when you lynch me, I just want you to know that Prana is scum.

He's suspects PE based purely upon wanting more discussion.

He's twisting "wanting more discussion" into "buying time to save PE's scum buddy (me)"

Or, put another way, he is saying that any discussion past this point is completely worthless and scummy because there is no purpose in looking for the rest of the scumteam when I'm so obviously confirmed scum.

P. much say the same thing.

[PranaDevil]

Oh, and finally, as for redbox thinking he might be voting with scum... he also wouldn't be voting for you if he didn't think you were scum (unless he is scum obviously), but if I had 3 people I thought could be scum, I wouldn't hang back and not vote just because I might be voting with scum, I'd vote for someone I think is scum whether other scum are voting or not.

Who's not fully reading who's posts?

[RayFrost]

@ Kisomod:

Since I'm in the game, I don't even get a chance for awesome points or a box of cookies! unfair

[PranaDevil]

and Ray, wanting more discussion is good if there's not much to go on, when we have a good solid case as far as I'm concerned, more discussion just gives the scum's partner time to get him out of the hole he's dug for himself.

What's more, if I was scum, you think I'd be stupid enough to go after you so heavily knowing that I'd be prime target A "when" (I use when, as if I were scum, I'd know 100%, as opposed to the 99% I have now) you flipped town? I'd have to be a damned ballsy mafia to try that kind of tactic.

[RayFrost]

Oh, and finally, as for redbox thinking he might be voting with scum... he also wouldn't be voting for you if he didn't think you were scum (unless he is scum obviously), but if I had 3 people I thought could be scum, I wouldn't hang back and not vote just because I might be voting with scum, I'd vote for someone I think is scum whether other scum are voting or not.

Who's not fully reading who's posts?

so... voting somebody you previously claimed a town read on while also voting with two people you've claimed to think are scum is totally not scummy at all?

Wow.

You are so completely convinced I'm scum that you are willing to give a free ride to anybody and everybody on my wagon.

Either you are doing really poorly this game or you are scum.

Or both.

I'm leaning toward both.

[PranaDevil]

So just because you previously gave somebody a town reading means that they cannot do something to become more scummy thanks to later things cropping up?

I'll keep that in mind in the future, I can be as town as I like early on, then start acting shifty and pointing out holes that aren't there, and expect to get a free ride based on the fact everyone has already said I have to be pro-town.

Please, you're reaching now, very, very, obviously.

[RayFrost]

and Ray, wanting more discussion is good if there's not much to go on, when we have a good solid case as far as I'm concerned, more discussion just gives the scum's partner time to get him out of the hole he's dug for himself.

What's more, if I was scum, you think I'd be stupid enough to go after you so heavily knowing that I'd be prime target A "when" (I use when, as if I were scum, I'd know 100%, as opposed to the 99% I have now) you flipped town? I'd have to be a damned ballsy mafia to try that kind of tactic.

Last bit is WIFOM, so ignoring that (besides, you wouldn't be target A, you'd be target B, after the wagoners, aka, jmurph, redbox, and hwoever else jumped on as well)

If there is something going on, more discussion is still a good thing.

What has happened so far?

1 thing has happened, a wagon on me.

there's been no stances given by quite a few players, virtually no posts by a number of them, and, really, we've got like 3 pages of just us posting much.

So, let's look at what stances we'll have to go off of tomorrow...

VIRTUALLY NOTHING THAT IS NOT DIRECTLY RELATED TO ME.

Which is to say almost nothing at all.

People can now quite easily just say their stance on me and not give any other information and get away with it because I'm the "main event" so there is no reason to comment on anything else

Also, it's early in the game and some peopl haven't even given any stances at all.

discussion is still far more valuable than you are saying.

Your stance is pretty much "no more discussion, lynch rayfrost, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch!!!!!!!!!!!!"

discussion bad, rayfrost lynch good. is your mantra.

Stifling discussion in this manner is extremely anti-town at minimum.

It helps scum easily fly under the radar and not doing a single damned thing.

[RayFrost]

So just because you previously gave somebody a town reading means that they cannot do something to become more scummy thanks to later things cropping up?

I'll keep that in mind in the future, I can be as town as I like early on, then start acting shifty and pointing out holes that aren't there, and expect to get a free ride based on the fact everyone has already said I have to be pro-town.

Please, you're reaching now, very, very, obviously.

You Are Not Getting It.

ONE thing happened, me finding him scummy.

He'd stated that he was

solidly

convinced you were scum (this is a paraphrase, and I am saying so to avoid the "puttingwordsinhismouthzomfgscummy" comment ). Next post, he votes me.

Your reads, if you actually believe in them, don't switch faster than a computer calculates 2*4.4.

Scum don't believe in any scum reads.

This is indicative of scum in redbox.

[RayFrost]

If I get lynched, after the game is over, and you are town, I have to admit that I intend to start a thread titled...

"On Tunnel Vision"

in which I ask what symptoms of tunnel vision exist and point out some that you have shown here, using your play as well as columbo/lamont's play in my first game as examples.

[PranaDevil]

Except for the possible pairing of fuzz and apathy, or the possibility of jmurph, or the fact if you flip town I'm likely public enemy number 1 (and hey, I'll take the rap for that if you flip town, though it's unlikely), or that PE (Which I never liked at school, narf) could be your scum buddy too.

I'd hardly say there's been no discussion elsewhere, and I'd doubt strongly that absolutely nothing would come from lynching you.

Best cast scenario, we're lynching mafia (which is the scenario I think will happen.)

But if we do stretch and consider the worst case scenario you, wind up town, and mafia pick off another town in the night, we can then write out two townies and look into possible reasons for why the person was killed in the night.

Whereas right now, for my money, more discussion gives scum time to look for an out of the hole that he's dug for himself.

[RayFrost]

What you just said means you'll completely ignore the reasoning people put into voting me, when, why, how, etc, and just look at the

night killed townie

.

Your stance is basically "everything RF says is worthless even if he's town."

I'm so beyond offended that I want to express it, but I find that I don't express anger well.

More discussion gives

town

more time to solidify their reads on who is/isn't scum as well.

To be honest, I'm at the point where I

want

to be lynched.

It's so completely obvious that you are like Radivel from an off-site game that I'm just tired of it.

VOTE: RayFrost

-snip irrelevant stuff-

I'll say it now - I'm going to vote for RayFrost until he's out of the game.

[RayFrost]

Mod: Please note that I am not deliberately playing against my win-condition by wanting to be lynched. I feel that I would be detrimental to scumhunting if I remain, as I'd always be that "distraction" that caused people to not pay enough attention. I am informing you of this so you don't have to slap my wrists and such for bad play.

[jmurph3]

@jmurph3: A lot of your post tends to agree with me that my suspicions are valid. So, I'm going to keep 'em.

I'd like to know what parts are confirming that your suspicions are valid...if you don't mind sharing.

The part about you voting me was not an attack on anything I had said, but the fact that I wasn't on for a day. It seemed that I was being voted for because I disappeared. Plus you made sure to highlight the fact that it wasn't OMGUS. If a case is solid, don't worry about people claiming OMGUS. OMGUS isn't scummy, it just can weaken a person's points. But if they can't defend themselves and can only go "OMGUS, OMGUS", then the OMGUS claim is invalid and really that may be a solid case.

I wasn't actually that worried about OMGUS, I just wanted to head it off/let the other players know that I was prepared to defend my position if it was accused of being as such. Also, I did not delineate everything I was thinking at the time since, as I've mentioned, I was also hoping to stimulate conversation. As also mentioned, the conversation took a very different turn. My point was not just that you had disappeared but that you also did not really explain your position at all.

Also, I think that the other evidence against Ray (see Prana's previous post and Apathy's post) has a lot more weight than the argument about what redbox did or did not mean. That was just the straw that, for me, broke the camel's back.

What is most prevalent about the case on Ray that has you scared and why? You just say: Look at these posts by other people. I have no idea what parts of their cases lead you to believe Ray is scum.

Oy, where do I begin to start?

Me saying I'm town doesn't really do anything to convince people that I am. :/ That's a really weak bit of reasoning in that individuals can say they are town all day and night if they so choose. It doesn't guarantee their alignment. At best, it's a tell that's like defensiveness: it requires meta.

I will agree that this would hinge more on me knowing your meta, but just going on gut feeling, it seems that a player who is guilty would want to try and establish his innocence early on[...]Maybe I am giving you a lot of credit here, but to tell everyone you’re town so often with so little provocation so early on seems to be a bit of a reach and very scummy.

I've already covered the defensiveness bit, so you using that against me is still rather pathetic and weak.

First, using personal attacks doesn’t help deter logic. Second, I will agree that with some people defensiveness just comes naturally, however, since I do NOT know your meta at all, it would not be a terrible move to call you out for being defensive, and ask questions about why. So far the best explanation you’ve given is that ‘Defensiveness is not a scumtell.’ Well, not always. But sometimes, yes.

You didn't actually answer the question you quoted, so yeah. Ummm... actually do so next time or don't freakin' quote it.

Okay, you’ve got me. Here is my answer:
Posting a lot doesn’t necessarily increase nor decrease your chances of not being caught as a scumbag. It’s the substance that matters. Like I said already, if you were posting many things of substance that even seemed to be drawing out logical conclusions, I would be less inclined to question your erratic behavior, but so far we haven’t really pulled MUCH from your posts, which leads me to believe that your style of posting a lot and shifting blame around is to create an atmosphere of chaos and confusion, thus allowing you to sway opinions more effectively while also keeping the spotlight as far away from you and your partner as possible. This is a common tactic of any good scum (at least the ones I’ve seen).

Saying you are town is about as good a defense as saying "but u guys should trust me because I say so," which isn't very convincing

Earlier..

This time, I'm town, how about you?

but I'm also working towards my win condition (obv, I'm town), so yeh

Those are the ones from Apathy that I find most convincing. I wish that I had more to add of my own opinion, but really, if I agree with what they have to say, and their list has already been so incredibly thorough, what more do I have to say?

Look, I've said from page 4, I think Ray is being extremely defensive. Some of his later things only confirm this.

You seem to be saying that I'm going "oh noes, wtf do I do, I'm being found scummy!!!112gfdar!" when only two people, yourself and apathy, have done so while others have stated quite clearly they think I'm town.

Also, to use what Prana recently said, [quote="PranaDevil]Also, it's the way you've been attempting (but failing) to defend yourself, it's been very aggressive and searching for any holes someone gives you, even when you need to attempt to create the hole to latch onto. Hence how you've managed to be "over defensive" without actually having a defense, so to speak.[/quote]

I know it's not enough for me to say it, but I agree. I think the fact that Ray has gone from "attempting" - and I use the term loosely - himself to suddenly personally attacking Prana (or, more accurately, accusing Prana of personally attacking him - case in point:

If I get lynched, after the game is over, and you are town, I have to admit that I intend to start a thread titled...

"On Tunnel Vision"

in which I ask what symptoms of tunnel vision exist and point out some that you have shown here, using your play as well as columbo/lamont's play in my first game as examples.

and

What you just said means you'll completely ignore the reasoning people put into voting me, when, why, how, etc, and just look at the

night killed townie

.

Your stance is basically "everything RF says is worthless even if he's town."

I'm so beyond offended that I want to express it, but I find that I don't express anger well.

More discussion gives

town

more time to solidify their reads on who is/isn't scum as well.

To be honest, I'm at the point where I

want

to be lynched.

Hopefully, this gives you enough of an idea about what parts I'm mostly going off of to make my own opinions. If not, I can definitely find more.

[PranaDevil]

you're taking this awful personal Ray. That or you're attempting to scare me (and others) into not voting for you because it's "bad play", sorry, but nobody is to tell anyone else what good play is, and if you think me singling you out because, y'know, you've made the most scummy moves (or extremely bad mistakes) thus far, is somehow meaning I have tunnel vision (thanks for being my doctor, how much do I owe you? I'm not Abyss (TNA reference) y'know).

No, it's the fact you have put the finger on yourself with your actions that have made me go after you in this game. Everything I've previously mentioned is what has me singling you out right now. If you hadn't been putting words in peoples mouths so often, or contradicting yourself at times, etc. there would be no heat on you.

I have no issue, if you turn up town, going after issues that you brought up, I just don't believe you will turn up town (otherwise I wouldn't want you lynched), therefore your points in that case would be meaningless. If you somehow DID turn up town, then yes, I (and I expect others) would look at what you said. I thought that stood to reason?

---------------------

This bit is not involving the game at all people. But Ray seriously, stop taking things into such a personal way man. This is a game, and prior to the actual game part I found you to be a good decent bloke, trust me, I have absolutely nothing against you personally.