Mini 199 - Time Travel Mafia, Game Over!

[mathcam]

Current Official Vote Count

Changling bob (1, Nox)

Not Voting: Someone, Changling bob, Gaspode, Fishbulb

Deadline in 7 days.

Cam

[Gaspode]

I keep going back to how Someone played this. Why reveal all so suddenly? Why not see where the town is going before trying to push us in a direction? I was all ready to vote for Changling bob anyway.

Exactly. That's why I'm so doubtful about the claim. The correct play probably would have been to see if one of the two in question could be lynched without a claim, and then using the info if it were needed. Claiming at the start of the day just seems like scum's way of establishing a claim before they are under pressure and heavily scrutinized.

[Nox]

Well, I`ll be honest with you, before Someone`s claim, I would`ve maybe leaned towards Gaspode. However, his name was cleared.

I`d opt for a mass claim.

[Someone]

I keep going back to how Someone played this. Why reveal all so suddenly? Why not see where the town is going before trying to push us in a direction? I was all ready to vote for Changling bob anyway.

Exactly. That's why I'm so doubtful about the claim. The correct play probably would have been to see if one of the two in question could be lynched without a claim, and then using the info if it were needed. Claiming at the start of the day just seems like scum's way of establishing a claim before they are under pressure and heavily scrutinized.

I disagree. As scum, I would probably hold back and wait for more information before claiming. Especially if I'm the only one left....I maintain it's a very risky move.

[Gaspode]

The thing is, anything is risky for scum at this point. If you wait, you could be pressured into a claim. In that situation, any claim would definitely be seen as either too convenient or too unlikely. If you come out now, it looks like you have no reason to hesitate; nothing to hide. However, you can then have a situation like this, where that one pesky townie (in this case, me) doesn't immediately assume you're telling the truth.

Well, I`ll be honest with you, before Someone`s claim, I would`ve maybe leaned towards Gaspode. However, his name was cleared.

So, even though you think I seemed scummy for some reason (I'd be interested to hear what it is), you're willing to blindly follow Someone and just completely throw out the possibility that he's wrong? I prefer independent thinking, personally, scrutinizing both sides of every argument.

Nox seems really intent on having a mass claim. Am I the only one who thinks this isn't completely necessary yet? I think we have enough discussion for now. If you can give a good reason for a mass claim, I'll go along with it, but I don't see the need yet.

[Gaspode]

The thing is, anything is risky for scum at this point. If you wait, you could be pressured into a claim. In that situation, any claim would definitely be seen as either too convenient or too unlikely. If you come out now, it looks like you have no reason to hesitate; nothing to hide. However, you can then have a situation like this, where that one pesky townie (in this case, me) doesn't immediately assume you're telling the truth.

Well, I`ll be honest with you, before Someone`s claim, I would`ve maybe leaned towards Gaspode. However, his name was cleared.

So, even though you think I seemed scummy for some reason (I'd be interested to hear what it is), you're willing to blindly follow Someone and just completely throw out the possibility that he's wrong? I prefer independent thinking, personally, scrutinizing both sides of every argument.

Nox seems really intent on having a mass claim. Am I the only one who thinks this isn't completely necessary yet? I think we have enough discussion for now. If you can give a good reason for a mass claim, I'll go along with it, but I don't see the need yet.

[Fishbulb]

Yeah, and I can see what you are saying, Someone. Gah, this is so frustrating. This is pretty much it. Either we trust Someone and possibly lose by handing the game over to him, or we hang him and possibly our only chance at winning. I always make the wrong choice in these situations.

[Someone]

Can everyone give their opinion on the mass claim? I don't know if it is necessary right now, but I'd like to see where everyone stands.

The reason I mentioned a mass-claim, is that there is a possibility that we have enough pro-town roles to end this game right now. (Although it is possible that we have up to two scum left, which is not a good thing)

[Changling bob]

So Someone has a very convinient claim, then he pushes for a mass-claim.

Firstly, isn't this in the wrong order? I would ask for a mass claim before opening myself up. But even then:

Secondly, as Gaspode points out, surely we can at least start to deduce from what's being said who is (or isn't) scum. A mass claim may be useful, but if it goes wrong, it hands the mafia the game on a plate as they know who to take out for maximum damage to the town.

Someone's actions today are really rubbing me up the wrong way. Not just because he's (wrongly) fingered me, but through dodgy tactics and the convinience of it all.

[Nox]

In my opinion, only the scum would oppose to a mass claim. Itd pretty much give us an idea of how many of them they are. On another note, if we don't do this, the game would probably end up deadlined, for there'd be a lack of any action probable. I think the more information we have before we decide to lynch somebody, the better it is for the town. The longer we let this game stagnate, the less information we have to make our lynching decision.

[Nox]

Arg,

Unvote

. (I forgot about that one XD)
I'm going to hold out until a mass claim.

[Fishbulb]

In my opinion, only the scum would oppose to a mass claim. Itd pretty much give us an idea of how many of them they are. On another note, if we don't do this, the game would probably end up deadlined, for there'd be a lack of any action probable.

Please explain how a mass claim could give us any idea of how many scum are left. I'm trying to figure this out, maybe I'm missing something obvious, but won't they just lie? I'm in the line of thinking that all it would do is reveal any powerful town roles that are left. I think we have doc left, for instance, why give that information to scum?

And we don't need the mass claim to come to a decision today. In fact, the mass claim won't really give us any insight on the whole Someone versus Changling bob debate. I think many of us are hesitating as this is an important decision to make, not because we don't have anything to go on.

[Nox]

True true. It could, but I suppose it doesnt really mean it would.

Alright. Then what would you rather wait for?
If people are not in for a mass claim, then keep talking guys. I want to hear not just propositions, but also suggestions.

[Fishbulb]

My main hesitation for lynching Someone, as I don't believe his claim, is that it won't give us any information. If he's scum, he'll show up non-townie. If he is actually telling the truth, he will still be non-townie. Either way, we won't really know if we're on the right track.

[Gaspode]

True, but any smart scum would claim non-townie anyway. There is no lynch that will give us useful information today. All we can do is hope it ends the game, or at least helps the town.

I think we're hesitating because we're expecting the rest of the town to come up with new ideas. Unfortunately, there are only five of us left, and we've all spoken, so pretty much everything is out there already. We're not going to get much further, I think.

I do have one question I'd like answered, though: we've heard everyone's view on a mass claim--except for Someone. We know he'd support one, but I'd like to know why.

[Nox]

I think we're hesitating because we're expecting the rest of the town to come up with new ideas. Unfortunately, there are only five of us left, and we've all spoken, so pretty much everything is out there already. We're not going to get much further, I think.

Very true.

[Someone]

The reason I proposed a mass claim, is that I thought that it was probable that we have enough roles to insure a town win right now. However, when I look at the number of non-townee deaths, I'm not so sure any more, which is why I changed my position from "mass claim is a good idea" to "I don't know if it's necessary, but I would like to hear some opinions on the matter.

Also, there's a chance that you guys would find my role less suspicious when you look at the game in a whole...mayhaps you would have more of a context for it. Of course, this point is secondary to point A.

[Changling bob]

Also, there's a chance that you guys would find my role less suspicious when you look at the game in a whole...mayhaps you would have more of a context for it. Of course, this point is secondary to point A.

Hard to look in the context of the game as a whole, as most people are dead and can't comment. And how would you know that we would have more context? Do you know more than you're letting on?

And given your first comment, do you still advocate a mass claim, or have you changed your mind?

My main hesitation for lynching Someone, as I don't believe his claim, is that it won't give us any information. If he's scum, he'll show up non-townie. If he is actually telling the truth, he will still be non-townie. Either way, we won't really know if we're on the right track.

The same has been true of every lynch so far in the game. Its a risk we take due to the mechanics of the game when we lynch someone (or they wake up dead).

[Nox]

Out of Fishbulb and Bob, right now, IMO, Bob seems the scummiest. Gaspode just looks uneasy, which is understandable, and Someone's claim seems to fit in, I do recall seeing the fact that they were "trying to incorporate an investigative role in the TT" somewheres as well, though looking back I can't pinpoint it.

Theses are the gut feelings that I have right now. Bob seems to me as a cornered scum. His responses, his analysis, and his behavior lead me to think that he's just praying for Gaspode and Fishbulb to Suspect Someone's claim.

Fishbulb's behavior, on the other hand, sort of leads me to think that he has a pro-town power role of some sort. He brought up the doc possibility, he seemed the most concerned for himself as far as nightkilling goes.

[Gaspode]

Okay, the day is dying. We need progress, and since I really can't see anything that could change my point of view, I think it's time I

vote: Someone

. My reasons are already stated.

[Fishbulb]

Well, right now the only person I trust is Gaspode. He has nothing to gain from going against Someone. If he's scum, he'd just go along with Someone, not question his motives. I think that is a good indicator of his alignment.

As for the rest of you, I really don't know which way to go. I think it looks mostly like Nox and Someone are the scum, but lynching Someone won't give us quite as much information as lynching Nox, as she'd come up non-townie instead of her claimed townie. Or maybe it is just Someone.

Gah! I'm still thinking here...

[Someone]

The problem is, if we get nox today, when she turns up as townee, where do we go from there?

If you lynch me today, and the game doesn't end, what do we do?

IMO there's only one scum left, else fishbulb would have probably voted me too. Or course, you guys also have the option of believing that me and nox are scum buddies.

I still think bob is scum, though.

[Nox]

Ill

vote: Changling Bob.

However, I've thought up of an alternative plan. If you lynch me, I will come up as a townie. It will give you the proof you need to trust Someone, won't it?

If it can get you guys to lynch Bob tomorrow, Id gladly sacrifice my life.

[Fishbulb]

If you lynch me today, and the game doesn't end, what do we do?

Okay, what if we lynch Changling bob and the game doesn't end? You say that it must be me, but I know that's not true. But to trust you now means trusting you all the way, which I'm not sure I'm ready to do yet.

Maybe we will lynch Changling bob and we win, yay... but what if we don't?

[Someone]

Our options

A)Lynch bob, then lynch me

We win if I'm scum alone, if bob is scum alone.
We lose if I'm scum with somebody else, or if fishbulb is scum (alone, or with bob).

B)Lynch me, then lynch nox

We win if I'm scum, or if I'm scum with nox.
We lose if I'm town (therefore either fishbulb or bob or both are scum)

C)Lynch nox, if townee, lynch bob. If not, lynch me.

We win if I'm scum with nox, or if bob is scum.
We lose if I'm solo scum, if fishbulb is scum.

D)Lynch bob, lynch fishbulb

We win if I'm town (Therefore bob or fish or both are scum)
We lose if I'm scum

E)Lynch me, then lynch bob

Same as A.

I think that I've outlined the most likely courses of action. Of course, I've ignored the power roles that we don't know we have.