Mini 891 - British Comedy Mafia (Game Over)

[Budja]

I don't believe his claim at being town and being purely without anything useful.

^ what's this then?

[Netopalis]

BC: There was a rather long discussion on the subject a while back, during which Chinaman argued over several posts that there are no VTs in this game.

[BloodCovenent]

guess we'll just wait for clarification.

[imaginality]

The second mason definitely shouldn't claim for now. If Chinaman dies and flips mason, his partner can wait as long as he claims at least one day before lylo. Then if someone counterclaims, there's time to lynch one and lynch the other the following day.

Also JL, if he has the treestump power, should not treestump Chinaman. Much better to keep the claimed masons alive and let the scum nightkill them - scum can't afford to let them live too long.

I don't see much scum advantage to fakeclaiming mason, seems a pretty risky gambit, but agree that Chinaman should say more about his motive for claiming so early. As well as confirming whether he and his partner are 100% town-confirmed masons as opposed to just 'masons'.

Re. vanilla townie stuff, agreed that Netopalis's reaction claim was unnecessary. I also think it would be borderline bastard-modding to have

no

vanilla townies without at least warning scum of that possibility so they don't get screwed by claiming vanilla. Certainly it's possible there's a high proportion of power roles but I don't see it as a great additional reason to lynch a vanilla claim.

Budja still feels more likely town to me than scum. I'm currently more suspicious of dana, BloodCovenant, and Locke in theory (depending if he's lurking or flaked). SnowBunny I also have a gut feel about but that might be more just playstyle at this point than a genuine read.

[Snow_Bunny]

Look, China's partner can claim when they consider it best. They may not wait until LyLo.
Also China isn't guaranteed by any means to die tonight.

Let the masons sort that out.

@Snow, what about Fuzzy's reaction?

I was so shocked with Net scum claim that I ignored this. Ah, it seems we have the whole scum team down. Easy game.

MFOS: Fuzzy

[Chinaman]

Ok, for clarification.

The VT vs PR thoughts of mine are just that, thoughts. I haven't completed a ton of games but in my personal experience, there have been more town PR's than VT's in mini Themes. This is NOT to say there are no VT's. I just personally feel that if there were 9 townies, at least 4 of them would have a PR or extra knowledge of some sort in a mini theme. Look at it from my point of view. I know of at least 2 townies that aren't VT's. Add in the near standard Cop and Doc roles (NOT saying they exist in this game, but again, in my experience....) and that's 4 townies that aren't VT. If you believe JL's claim, that makes 5....well over half the townies that aren't VT. In mini themes there seem to be even rarer PR's for town as well. So, that's where I'm coming from with the VT vs town PR numbers.

We have 2 claimed VT's now I believe. It's the best claim for scum is it not? Well, if not the best, the safest. It is NOT however the ONLY reason I am good with lynching Budja today though. It's not the only reason I voted him. I will now say however, I kinda wanna lynch Net today over Budja. I also don't like that Fuzzy wanted me to out my partner as well. Guess what guys, they can come out when they want to and imag had it exactly right that they should do so before lylo to make it a town win.

I said I didn't have a whole lot of time left due to my claim and no other reason. I figured after I let you know that I was town with a partner, scum would want to get rid of me quickly especially since I'm not going to give my partner away just yet. It makes sense. It also makes sense that if we had a Doc, I might have given him/her a good target to save. It also makes sense that a shit ton of other scenarios could happen at night so I'm not going to list them all.

I'm sorry for all of you who feel I played my role wrong or incorrectly, but after putting myself into nomination for stumping and after my discussion of why I don't want JL to randomly choose someone, I felt it was a pretty good time to claim. All in all, bite me if you don't like it .

I believe I have answered the clarification questions but to reiterate: I claimed b/c I thought it was a good time to do so due to the convo that has happened today, and YES, as I have already stated, my partner and I know eachother are town.

All in all, I think the scum in this game are thoroughly confused at what to do tonight. They have me, who is easily confirmable town, they have JL who could get lucky and stump them and if he doesn't stump one of them, he can at least confirm another townie (if he's not lying about the power), they have 2 people who have claimed VT (at least one of which I don't really believe tbh), and they now know my partner is out there somewhere.

[Netopalis]

....You're a loony.

Seriously, why did you choose now to claim other than "Because I wanted to?" You really don't justify that choice at all in your post, and that bothers me.

[BloodCovenent]

yea... i'm down for a Net lynch too.

[Chinaman]

....You're a loony.

Seriously, why did you choose now to claim other than "Because I wanted to?" You really don't justify that choice at all in your post, and that bothers me.

LOL, yes net, I did. You know the whole part about where I said with all that's gone on today that scum should be thoroughly confused? Well, my claim is part of their confusion ya loon.

Unvote

to prevent Net from hammering and will wait to see if anyone else is up for a Net lynch over Budja today.

[Netopalis]

My friend, if casting suspicion on Chinaman's play here is scummy, then I am guilty as charged. However, his play has been terrible, anti-town and has been moving me more and more consistently to the scum side of things.

[Chinaman]

Net, how? how is my claim scummy? How does scum-me benefit from claiming mason? How is this play so terrible? Where is it anti-town? Show me some quotes man and not just random finger pointing. Prove to everyone where you're coming up with these accusations of me rather than just trying to convince everyone they are there without proof.

I'm so ready for you to be swinging. I think everything you have said since my claim has been one big scumslip.

[Budja]

I can see the point of the claim to save from a stumping but the whole vanilla thing is mod WIFOM. Doc, Cop are never guaranteed.

Basically...

....You're a loony.

Net is not scum either. Scum would have hammered me and not attacked the mason.

@Imag, ML, if you really don't think I'm scum, help me lynch BC.

[BloodCovenent]

@Imag, ML, if you really don't think I'm scum, help me lynch BC.

dude, you have NO fcking case on me.

[Netopalis]

Certainly. My suspicion of Chinaman began during the whole debate over Lyman's veracity. He attacks Lyman right out of the gate for particularly weak reasons, then proceeds to tunnel against him. He urges a quicklynch and pushes until Lyman claims, at which point he attacks what is largely a credible claim for the vague reason that it "doesn't sound like a town ability", despite his later accusation that there must be at least half, if not more power roles (A spurious assertion, IMHO.)

He seems to come to the ridiculous conclusion that Lyman does indeed have the ability, but as a scum ability. This seems rather silly - giving scum two kills unbalances the game in a ridiculous way, and no experienced mod would do this without some absolutely insane power roles on the town side. He also repeatedly argues that it is not provable, even though the existence of a player that is vigged but could still talk in thread would seem to clear Lyman. Why this is not a provable claim is never explained, save for the idea that he could be roleblocked and "then we'd just have to lynch him anyway", which is perhaps the worst justification for a lynch I've ever seen. If there is a chance of a townie confirming himself, it is anti-town to suggest that because the action might fail, we should go ahead and lynched the claimed player - especially since the grounds for pushing Lyman to claim were so terrible.

After he realizes that he can no longer get Lyman lynched that easily, he decides to switch targets and tunnel against Budja. Budja had indeed been acting scummy, and was a worthy target of the lynch today. However, Chinaman's ferocity seems to indicate that he is either a town version of Leeeeeroy Jenkins or that he is scum trying to get anybody but scum lynched.

Finally, with just a few days left on the deadline, he comes up with a Mason claim. No reason for the claim. No partner mentioned. He just decides that the time is right to claim Mason. If he is scum who did not have the opportunity to night talk, he's probably expecting his scumbuddies to show up and clear him, forming a falsemason team. This is bad play, yes, but given his play up to this point, I really don't think it's all that farfetched.

The only reason that I have not attacked Chinaman up to this point is because I know from previous experience how bad his play tends to be. This goes beyond the limits of believability, however, and pushes me well towards the scummy category.

[MacavityLock]

Chinaman, please answer my questions below.

China, what does the following mean?

I don't believe his claim at being town and being purely without anything useful.

Also, I too would like answers to the below.

1. Are you and your partner confirmed town to each other? (v. important to know now)
2 Why claim?

I think you gave an answer to "Why claim?", but the others remain unanswered. The important point: Does your role PM say that your partner is definitely 100% town?

[ortolan]

Seventeenth vote count

Budja (5): Josh Lyman, Fuzzyman, BloodCovenent, Snow_Bunny, DeathSauce
Josh Lyman (1): danakillsu
danakillsu (1): Netopalis
BloodCovenent (1): Budja
Locke Lamora (1): imaginality
Snow_Bunny (1): MacavityLock

Not voting (2): Locke Lamora, Chinaman

7 to lynch.

am force-replacing Locke Lamora

prodded danakillsu

[Chinaman]

Chinaman, please answer my questions below.

China, what does the following mean?

I don't believe his claim at being town and being purely without anything useful.

Also, I too would like answers to the below.

1. Are you and your partner confirmed town to each other? (v. important to know now)
2 Why claim?

I think you gave an answer to "Why claim?", but the others remain unanswered. The important point: Does your role PM say that your partner is definitely 100% town?

p430 answers everything in your post.

I'm not even going to respond to the retardation that is p438. Seriously, way to not respond to p435, then accuse me of crap without quotes AGAIN! LOL. And you say MY play is bad!

Answer my questions with quotes scumbag, instead of just talking out your ass.

@Budja: Why would Net have hammered you so early as scum? That would be dumb. If you flipped town he would have died D2 for quickly hammering you. Because he didn't hammer you doesn't mean he's not scum.

[Budja]

No he wouldn't. The hammer vote is not auto-scum just because I'm town.
It doesn't guarantee him town, but it gives him a town read.

[Netopalis]

China: Post 430 does not address any of our concerns sufficiently enough. It is rather cryptic and badly written. Please repost your reasons for your actions in plain English.

[MacavityLock]

p430 answers everything in your post.

Sorry I missed some of it, but it is kind of buried in there. However, I'm still not sure what you mean by

I don't believe his claim at being town and being purely without anything useful.

If I'm interpreting your 430 correctly, you're saying that you don't believe that Budja could possibly be vanilla with no perks. Is this correct, or no? If not, can you please, in a small concise post, explain what you were trying to say here?

I'm not opposed to a BC wagon at this time, mostly due to the way his votes have fallen.

@mod,

prods for Locke Lamora and danakillsu?

[DeathSauce]

I agree with the loony assessment.

I disagree that Net is scum, his reasoning and failure to hammer are points in his favor.

I also disagree that claiming is going to somehow confuse the scum. They already know who the town is, claiming Mason is meaningless, it's not like you have an investigative or blocking role. Therefore, you have actually probably hurt the town with your claim.

Snow Bunny, what "Net scum claim" are you speaking of?

[Budja]

am force-replacing Locke Lamora
prodded danakillsu

^ Macavity.

@Death, why, from your perspective, is failing to hammer a town tell?

[Chinaman]

omg. really? It's simple guys. This is a mini theme. Mini Themes usually have an above average amount of PR's or extra fun things mixed in with a town role. For instance, in another mini theme I was in, I was straight VT BUT I knew what one other person's game name was and that person was Lady of the Sith. I didn't know for sure that she was scum, but it was pretty obvious based on that added info I had in my role PM that she was. Anyway, I have tried explaining this too much again for some of you so in 5 year old explanation terms.

In my experience mini themes have an above average amount of PR's. I'm not saying that we have zero VT's, but I'm saying we have very few. I don't believe his claim about being VT for many reasons. There probably being a good number of town PR's plays into the decision for me not believing his claim BUT IS NOT THE ONLY REASON. Get off it already. I never said my sole reason for voting him was because he claimed VT. Jeebus.

Is that clear enough? If not, let me know and I'll waste my time trying to explain it again.

Secondly, for the 3rd time, I am 100% positive my partner is town. They are 100% sure I am town.

And just because scum know who is town already doesn't mean my claim didn't confuse them. If you look back and read my post where I said this, you will see I was referring to them being confused as TO WHAT THEY SHOULD DO, not confused about anything else. By that I simply mean that if JL's claim is true, they have 3 people to deal with tonight that can prove their town. If we can prove 3 people town on D2, that's puts the odds in our favor. They have to take care of either me or JL tonight, but they don't know what JL is going to do and they know that if they kill me, there is a provable townie out there (my partner). My claim also reduces that chances of them hitting a Doc or Cop or other town PR that is more useful than mine or JL's as they will most likely try and target one of us. I stand by my claim and the timing of it. After the game we can discuss how I may have played it better.

BTW, failing to hammer is in no way shape or form a town or scum tell. It's null if anything. Town won't limit discussion by hammering early and scum aren't dumb enough to hammer early and end discussion. There are no town points or scum points awarded from not hammering early.

[Budja]

China, not all mini-themes do. This theme may just be a normal game with flavour for all we know. It may have lots of PR's, it may have few PR's. We just don't know.

My claim also reduces that chances of them hitting a Doc or Cop

Nope, your claim (and mine and Net's) have only narrowed their field.

If I were scum, there is no way I would have claimed VT. [/WIFOM]

As far as I can tell, I was about to be lynched and no-one was posting otherwise. I expected to be hammered. It was not early, if not for your claim I'd probably be dead and I doubt anyone would say it was an early hammer.

@Macavity, then why no vote. Its all very nice of you not to think I'm scum and all but it would really be nice to have a bit of counter-wagonning rather than cruise to a deadline lynch.

[Netopalis]

China: Exactly how many mini themes have you played?