Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh. I can't handle the waiting. Where's dramonic??

[Ojanen]

Still fairly hopeful for Shotty scum flip.

Serial hate is all over the place. Meh.
Still think he's prob town.
Farside, why didn't you like my reasons for voting kiku when you also FoSsed her and said a her post was a big load a little before I voted her?

Kise needs to read the whole game.
His content so far is the rehashed defending arguments (might be original if hasn't read to end, can't tell) and some stuff that is interpreting Serial rather maliciously like finding the hewitt joke scummy.
Through process of elimination he's rather on my scumlist, but let's see the Shotty flip.
If he's not scum then I have rather disappointingly had 2 townies as sole solid suspicion targets today after yesterday's success and I need to completely reevaluate and reread. If he flips scum Kise stays surely high.

[farside22]

Ugh. I can't handle the waiting. Where's dramonic??

I sent him a PM. I will give him 1 more day then start looking for a replacement mod.

[farside22]

Farside, why didn't you like my reasons for voting kiku when you also FoSsed her and said a her post was a big load a little before I voted her?

I FOS'ed her because I thought she had voted for SC then backed off.
I thought the big load was included in my thought of her backing off of SC as well. I was wrong on my thought process.

[DarkLightA]

If Hewitt doesnt respond before the next time I check my computer

(which could be a little while)

he'll be replaced.
So... votecounts will be a bit more spaced due to the Christmas vacations and my more

limited access

, but I ain't forgetting you guys!

Posted 24th.

I'm praying that Shotty is scum.. I don't believe his claim, I think he just doesn't want the town to have time to talk pre-night with a confirmed scum.

[dramonic]

Gah, connections don't exist at my mom cottage x_x

A hammer has been reached. I'll type the flavour for both scenes after night 2, so close the topic farside.

Shotty has been hammered. He was a

vanilla townie

It is now night 2! Get your actions in before the second![/b]

[farside22]

unlocked per mod request

[dramonic]

You yawn a bit. You had a pretty strange nightmare during the night. Kiku and ABR were dancing in circles around a darkened figure. You try to piece together the face of the third person, bu it's not working. Nonetheless, it was pretty crazy.

As you head to the square you don't even take the time to count the heads. It's obvious after yesterday that Kiku is dead, killed by the mafia.

You pull a chair at a nearby cafe to recollect your thoughts from the previous day. You remember there was a huge arguement, followed by some thrown accusation left and right, until Shotty said something fishy and everyone jumped up his throat. And Kiku again with that sledgehammer.

One more dead mason... Let's hope today you'll even the score.

Kikuchiyo,

Town Mason

, was cyanided night 2

It is now day 3. With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch!

[Ellibereth]

Before we get to any content:

Dram, what's the situation on the Hewitt slot?

[Ojanen]

I was Wrong on D2 and I felt very detached from the bulk of the material in the thread after the traveling access problem stuff. I reread during the night. Albert, if you're still following, love ya for making that reread entertaining.

Gonna dump my renewed reads out.

I believe there must be 2 scum in this group: Scigatt, Kise, Serial, hewitt, DLA.

I came up again to the townread on farside based on overall feel. It was accentuated with this part of a post that she posted

after

Serial's (fake) Neto hammer:

Since this isn't closed yet just a few things I want to say

Farside and Shotty both took their time to look at you, and they said they saw
where I was coming from. Ojanen evidently thought you were scummy on her own as well.

this is false. I never said anything about neto. Whatever he flips I said I would look into it but didn't see a case.

It would be extremely deviant for a mafia buddy to post this, disparaging any negative opinion.

Ellibereth's town based on Neto relation and overall feel. Upon review I'm compelled to post this, if for no other reason than not liking some of the straight dismissal he had from others: I actually really liked some of his thought processes even D1 now that I really looked them through. I think the insults were based on a non-intuitive way of writing things out and not enough activity rather than actual content. The guy is smart and should be listened to.

From the group of 5 containing the scum I think, I still maintain a reasonable townread on DLA and he was the fouth vote on Neto IIRC.
Hewitt's rabid arguing back to ABR feels moderately good. He bitterly argued against lynching Neto at the point when Neto was at L-1 and absolutely clearly beyond saving from lynch. I can't easily see a scumbuddy doing that. A lot of people would look at those posts as scummy after the flip and it was clearly gonna help squat against the lynch. I'm gonna iso him soon again, but I'm not really seeing him as scum.

We have Scigatt(=saber), Kise(=KittyMo,Yarmond), Serial(=CSL) left.
I used to think saber town. There's aggression from Neto to Scigatt slot, but despite that upon reread I actually find this slot quite scummy. Case in next post.

Looking at votecount end of D1, the 4 people off-wagon were Shotty, farside, hewitt and Kise's slot. Shotty's town, farside's I believe town, hewitt doesn't really fit scumbuddy behaviour either - if there was scum off-wagon, I'd definitively call it the Kise slot. PoE springs this slot high up to suspicion slot. Yarmond's silence was null though, looking him up he has 0 gameposts on mafiascum.

Frankly and sadly, being confronted again with CSL and Neto's comments and a bit of Serial (questions should be coming later) I'm not as confident on the townread as I was before. I feel like there's no floodgate holding the aggressive suspicion towards him and I really don't want that to dominate the thread. I'd actually like to buddy him up to high heavens and merrily chase scum together. My top 2 is attacking him so that makes me feel better, and if I had to say black or white town or scum it would still be town. But I'm just getting more unsure, and more people have been PoEd away..

[Ellibereth]

Heh, that's funny Oj, we reached almost the same conclusions over the night.
I completely agree with her about the 5 listed players.

Some info I gathered through night:

Hewitt made a grand total of 0 posts throught day 2. (Dec 18 - Dec 29)
He did not flake from the sight, making over 30 other game posts during that time, including in Little Italy.
Dram sent him a prod here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 00#2024300, ( Dec 21, 2009 6:24 pm), Hewitt was clearly on site at the time, making a post in another topic 4 minutes later. On the 23th and 24th hewitt has yet to

respond

to his prod according to Dram. That implies he's picked it up and is deliberately ignoring it. Further evidence is that hewitt has posted between's Dram's posts.

Next up, a wonderful compilation of CSL self votes:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 06#1823806 town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 83#1876483 scum
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 77#2017577 town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 88#1894988 scum
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 74#1921474 scum
What's curious is that he didn't hammer here, but just voted himself with

x

(Someone not as lazy as me do me a favor and check how many votes were on him) votes on him. He's only done that scum.

As for the argument, why would Neto defend Serial/CSl so vehemently. Assuming scum for Serial, this is what I think Neto's thought process was:
When Serial first replaced in, Neto was not in any trouble at all. Defending his scumbuddy would only be natural for him at that point, especially since the easy-bus just got replaced with a very good player. Later, both of them were under pressure. Neto could very well have thought the following: A) Serial's life was worth more than his, and B) If Serial had been the D1 lynch, Neto would have been all but screwed over D2. Hence, he makes sure that Serial's lynch does not happen all the while leaving the wonderful WIFOM defense that Serial could drop day 2 after Neto got lynched and flipped scum.

It should be damn obvious right now I think that Serial is scum. I'm not sure what to make of hewitt's ignoring of the prod, but we definitely need to hear from that player slot.
Out of DLA, Kise, Scigatt: Kise made a very interesting point about Saber. My impression of the guy was that he's lazy as hell and doesn't care that much about the results because of all the games he's in. Why did he work out that statistic to post in the first post?
Other random facts of note: Saber's random vote was for Neto. He advocated the other claim of the masons (anti-town as hell).
Tired as hell, more later.

Vote Serial

[Ellibereth]

Oh yeah, and I liked Kise's posts.
My bet on the remaining scum are Serial, Scigatt. I'm not sure about DLA and hewitt's a wildcard right now.

[Ojanen]

I'll read you properly in a bit Elli,
In the meantime going on to post my case on saberwolf=Scigatt.
I'm sorry about the wall.
This is one of those reads that is clouded in going back and forth and major self-doubting because I used to think it's a townslot, Neto attacked Saber at one point rather strongly and Saber was hard to read as hell. He isn't stupid though, he just seems to have a state of mind where he plays seriously and a state of mind where he goes ballistic and doesn't give a shit. He started this game in the serious mode and switched to a semi-ballistic-but-not-game-ruining mode along the way, I still feel he's far from those players that should be automatically forgiven lack of short-term memory for example.

First, some of why I didn't like Scigatt D2:
-exclusively easy target suspicion (Serial, then late Shotty wagon vote)

It's not that I think you're scummy, it's that I find your attitude really annoying. Also, it seems that others are responding to that with suspicion too so it isn't helping whatever faction you're on.(If someone can direct me to a good case on Shotty in D1 then that would be great. If there's a case in D2, I'll find it myself.)

Scigatt is voting Serial and likes the vote but apparently hasn't read Serial's posts if he hasn't seen the case

I pray that Sci has more to say.

Sorry, was away for a few hours(Less than a full day). I was just looking at SC's iso for his case on Shotty. Despite my read on SC, I think it's a good case. I have no qualms with anyone hammering at the moment.

Unvote,Vote:Shotty to the Body

then later easily goes from "it's not that I think you're scummy" to voting Shotty.
---

Next I'll show the full Neto to saber aggression that is ambigous to me.

Unvote

I really am not looking to bandwagon ABR. My vote was just to accentuate a point. Since he seems to have completely ignored it, I guess it didn't work. I am getting suspicious of Saber, though, for his eagerness to hop onto that idea without putting in much thought.

Saber had prominently hopped on several bandwagons before this one and Neto hadn't commented, he got a sudden jerk-reaction from saber following him.

I have no case on ABR, but his feeling of invincibility has me uneasy. However, I have reason to believe that he is town. I'm just vote hopping, trying to find something that I can finally lock down and go, this is why he deserves my vote.
Who haven't I voted for yet?

unvote; vote: Farside22

Your turn. I shall look at your posts and see if this is valid or not, most likely not. I should try to at least reinforce why you come off as town to me.

What the heck? I vote ABR to make a point, you hop on and vote him as well. I unvote him because I didn't want too many votes on him, then all of a sudden you feel a loss of conviction and unvote as well?

Vote: Saberwolf

This can be read in several ways, but Neto doesn't want to be connected to saber. The wifomic question of why not is imo at least worth asking. Town-scum connections are good for scum.

Saber immediately votehops again and Neto reacts with agression here.
After that Saber posts 2 comments to Neto that praise him. (I acknowledge this is not so typical intramafia, although there's the saber factor.)

I love this. You caught my attention and made me feel obligated to answer. Good for you
To be clear, I've always felt Neto is the biggest pro-town player we have. He is really good at putting pressure and making good posts. Do not vote for Neto.[... ...]

So what if Neto's voting for me? He's doing a good job of analyzing the game, and I cannot say I have seen a single scummy post of his. Are you saying that just because I have votes on me, all the people who are voting for me are scum? Of course not.
Now don't lynch Neto.

Uh, yeah. Let's just lynch Saberwolf. It's clear to me, at least, that he's going to be a huge liability in this game. He really isn't explaining his actions, he's trying to draw other people into his scumminess by associating them with himself (A bizarre strategy if I've ever seen one) and he's generally contributed nothing pro-town and plenty anti-town.

Neto's reaction to that is very negative again, he doesn't want to get associated to saberwolf, he almost straight up says it. It does make me consider why not and consider the possibility of distancing, especially in a game with masons, where looking at lynching based on links early on is not pro-town.

Why?

I am seriously considering this.
Scum usually likes being linked to town.
After this Neto keeps his saber vote and doesn't jump on Shotty, advocates saber over him, but then changes to ABR after one day.
Also, after saber's statements about Neto-town this

Awesome. Where's saber for the L-1?

Right here

unvote; vote: Neto

CLAIM OR DIE!

is MAJORLY strange... (saberfactor I know argh, but still, if there's anything that would fit the criteria of bussing...)

And he's majorly contradicting himself in these 2 quotes, short-term memory fail or untrue statement:

Just give me a gut yes or no - CSL scum or not?

oh, thats easy enough ^_^
I have to say no. It seems just too easy to be true.

unvote; vote: SC

I must say I liked this one best from the beginning, and here my vote will stay for the rest of the day.

I also didn't like the 3 instances early I saw that I thought were trapping the scumhunting view between mostly the wrong people; had a negative view on the max amount of conflicts which is a reasonable scumtell. (iso 39, 43, 44)

Allow me to arrange my thoughts a bit more and look at other people (Serial, Kise) before I cast my vote, but Scigatt's the top choice atm.

[SerialClergyman]

How do you show 5 separate occasions where CSL has self-voted with a 3/2 split and then use that as an argument to show I'm scum because of it? It's EXACTLY what I've been saying all along - CSL is a terribad player that constnatly self-votes.

The hammer argument is meh. That would mean he'd have to have the self control to not vote himself until he was at the point of hammering, and with ABR pushing him he obviously didn't.

As for Neto - you aren't looking at the situation completely. When I replaced in, I was 100% SET TO BE KILLED. Neto wasn't attracting suspicion, yes, so he also had NO REASON TO CONNECT HIMSELF TO THE PERSON ABOUT TO BE KILLED UNLESS THAT PERSON WAS TOWN. Albert asked me personally to replce in and yet still said he was going to kill me straight away. All Neto would have been doing by defending me at that time was ensuring his lynch would happen right after mine.

I'm used to playing a game with suspicion on me but it's so much more frustrating in this time. I wish someone would use a SINGLE post I'VE made to make a case against me >< I've been in the game for 1.5 days out of two and every time someone votes me I haven't seen a single reference to my play.

Ok. Getting that off my chest. It won't be terrible if I die anway, we just need to get this back on track pretty quickly.

Here's what happened D2 - the scum team, Hewitt and Kise, realised that kiku was arguing with Ojanen and me and Shotty was attracting general suspicion. So they decided they both didn't have to do squat. Hewitt has been active around the site, Kise was hanging around 're-reading' and not posting until after Shotty had been chosen for the lynch, effectively.

They didn't participate in D2 because they didn't have to. The town was doing more than enough to push suspicion on each other. As it turns out, Shotty was town, kiku was a mason and Ojanen is obvtown.

So here's where the flaking stops and the free passes stop. I am almost entirely sure that the scum team is Kise and Hewitt. The only other play that makes sense is one of the less prolific people like farside and DLA being scum and fanning the flames, but I didn't get that impression yesterday and still have prob town reads on farside and DLA.

Hewitt was only active in defending himself. He's never even looked to scumhunt when it was up in the air. He's not just VLA, he's actually deliberately not posting. He is scum.

Kise came in at the end of the day after constantly promising a re-read and he came in with another tired case on poor old Serial who's taken a battering from almost every player slot this game. He didn't do any scumhunting while the town was trying to find scum because we were all infighting. Kise is scum.

Game over. If you guys can't get over CSL's self-vote, that's the road map to winning the game.

[Ellibereth]

Found something else:
DLA's read post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 15#1999415
Ignore the reads, note the lack of neto.
His "make up" post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 44#2000944
Note the following in his original list:

Kiku: No contribution really. When I saw this on the list of players I was like "Who's this?" until I saw the avatar.. Nothing much to say. More scum than town.

Note the following in his make up:

Sorry, I overlooked it.

Note the original player list (Which he says he looked at) taken from the Open que:

Toro
hewitt
Yarmond
Albert B. Rampage
Ellibereth
Shotty to the Body
Netopalis
kikuchiyo
Konowa
DarkLightA
farside22
saberwolf

Neto's right above Kiku

[Ellibereth]

Serial, why did you ignore myself and Scigatt in the latter part of your post.

[SerialClergyman]

You because the only suspicious thing about you is your ULTRA change in playstyles from D1 to D2. My current theory of the game is that in D2 the scum said nothing because almost all of the major players and arguers were town. I include you in this mix as I include Ojanen, Shotty and kiku.

Scigatt is a little more complicated, but I always have considered him and saberwolf town. I think Ojanen is missing the mark above, althought it's a well thought out case.

Ittieltsiam, you see.

[Ellibereth]

Ah wait:

If Hewitt doesnt respond before the next time I check my computer (which could be a little while) he'll be replaced.

Hewitt's not being replaced yet means he did respond to the prod, and still not post in topic.
I guess you do have a point.

Unvote

for now, I need to sleep on it.

[Ojanen]

@Serial: your view on hewitt's behaviour regards to the Neto lynch wagon please.

I checked out hewitt's recent history - he flaked identically at the same time from another game that has now ended, he was pro-town mason there:
viewtopic.php?p=2019207#2019207

Okay I apologize I will actually do something tonight. I'm trying to finish a project, once I've completed that tonight I will read and catch up.

prodded dec. 21, didn't respond to it, 24th mod starts to replace him for not picking it up
---
prod sent here on 22nd, on 23rd and 24th mod says no response and mod has access stuff after that until short end of day post on 29th. I wanna know too what's the situation now though, is he being replaced and stuff.

Day starts Dec. 18th here. 18th to 22nd hewitt only posts in big brother mafia
-between 22nd and 27th only one post on site, in california trilogy post-game (24th)
-On a glance also another ongoing with extended silence

hewitt's worth a look but the flaking itself he did as town in another game at the same time.

[Ojanen]

Funny to see later if I mindread Serial's code.
iautttsiapotfn.

[DarkLightA]

Note the original player list (Which he says he looked at) taken from the Open que:

Toro
hewitt
Yarmond
Albert B. Rampage
Ellibereth
Shotty to the Body
Netopalis
kikuchiyo
Konowa
DarkLightA
farside22
saberwolf

Neto's right above Kiku

Note that I never said that, and I looked at the iso list, hence the alphabetical order, and that Neto is right under the MOD? Don't put words in my mouth.

---

Good catch though.. I realize that I look REALLY scummy for that...


---

I'm inclined to continue my pressure on SC.

Vote SC

[Ojanen]

@Serial: don't really know how to ask this or if you can answer this, I know you've got to be effectively fighting and huffing with almost every slot pursuing you. I would just somehow, with black and deep sincereness need to know just how confident you are in your scumreads currently.

In which of your ended towngames have you felt most frustrated due to suspicion on yourself? Have you been unknowingly mislynched in other games than hambargarville?

@DLA: your current opinion on Scigatt, Kise and hewitt please?

[Ellibereth]

The fact that hewitt doesn't seem to be replaced or in the process of it makes it seem to me like he responded somewhere before Shotty's lynch scene. If that is true, I am very curious why he did not post.
That said, i don't believe the scum were just sitting around D2. I believe there should be at least 1 on Shotty's lynch wagon (hence Scigatt or Serial).

[Ellibereth]

And I forgot DLA.
DLA, what does Neto being under the mod have to do with anything?? You even had the mod on your list.

[SerialClergyman]

Ojanen - I'm not putting on an act trying to appear certain when I'm not - sometimes I get a feeling and this is one of those times. I've never tried to discredit people who have had scum reads on me or voted me, all the way from Albert on day 1. What's most important is getting the scum lynched. So if I had doubts, or didn't have any reads, I'd say exactly that. But this seriously fits. Look at how much the town was chasing their tail on D2. Townies vs townies all over the shop. Kiku vs shotty was just the most prominent, there was you and me and shotty all embroiled in it with a pretty big helping of ellibereth, with farside and DLA contributing pretty solidly too. How much scum do you see in that group? How much coordination?

It just makes sense. D2 scum flake hard when it becomes apparant the main suspects are going to be town. They watch us all post our walls against each other. Why on earth would they get involved?

I could be biased because I've had a scum read on KittyMo since her one content post, and maybe Hewitt's flaking is an ill-timed coincidence, but I honestly don't even have a sniff of another suspect at the moment. I'm staking my in game life on it - even in a reverse way if I get lynched first.

hambargarville was probably my most frustrating game aside from this one, and that's partially due to one player (one of only 3 on my blacklist) and partially due to the fact that nobody was understanding what I was saying. Of course, I was both wrong and there were 3/7 scum, so naturally I was unlikely to get much support and it remains by far my worst game on site.

Commie Mafia was the only other time I was mislynched, and I was actually quite ok with it. I came up with a theory that fingered 2 out of the three most townie players as scum, and it was a typical SC theory filled with WIFOM and assumptions and conjecture. Then to top it all off I switched to DDD who, although I was certain was town, had tunnelled me to the point where he admitted there was nothing barring a cop investigation that would have led him to think I was town. So I switched to him k,nowing we both couldn't be alive in lylo and that the switch would be deemed scummy enough to be lynched.

I was somewhat frustrated in /inv 4 - I don't know if you remember but I had some smug-ass posts about being vindicated in that game when iamausername counterclaimed rofl.