Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[DarkLightA]

We've also got Shotty to the Body who is probably my top pick for scum. HE exhibits the same 'going for easy targets' mentality with the same 'unoriginal thinking' mentality. He starts off voting ofr Konowa (+++) but then relatively quickly both unvotes AND says that he's prepared to lynch either lynchbait candidate immediately without saying it's a policy vote.

I can't decide if I want to vote Saber, DLA, or keep it where it is, choices choices... Ah what the hell unvote, vote DLA

How is starting on Konowa a +++ given that that was my random vote? Also please prove my 'unoriginal thinking' given I brought the case on DLA later in the day by myself, have taken an original position on CSL, actually tried to make some connections between players.

The easy lynch candidates on page 5? Fantastic bringing the beginning up now, you're right I wanted to

vote

(nice misrep using lynch instead of vote when you talk about it BTW) the people who had behaved scumilly so far, no shit. The fact you try to prove that I've only been following the "easy lynches" using quotes from page 5 is pretty sad.

Then, what's the logical next step for the scumbucket? Joining the ABR-pushed wagon. Tick!

How is that a misrep? You accuse me and ABR of not contributing (which, at least in my case, is a flat-out lie) and use that as a scum-tell. That would imply that YOU contribute unless you're admitting to being scum? He never said you were a top contributer just that you don't contribute either, so now you're misrepping him.

unvote, vote hewitt

Right, nice of you to skip the step where I get discussion going again and ignore ABR's Elli wagon which is an EASY, I STRESS EASY, wagon. If I'm such an easy wagon hunter why don't I vote for Elli? Obviously I just follow ABR around on everything because I agreed with him about Hewitt who I voted for my own reasons according to this guy.

I could go for a DLA lynch today or tomorrow, if we lynched hewitt today and he flipped town I would be 100% behind a DLA lynch day two.

Lining up lynches. One of my faaaavourite scumtells, and one of the few conventional scumtells that actually does catch scum. This is essentially all I need for my vote. But then, this next post came along!

Absolutely must be your favorite, good to see you devoid of the original thinking you criticize everyone else for not having by mimicking farside's points.

I encourage everyone to unvote vote DLA. ABR is an obvious scum-buddy to DLA considering how much DLA was vacuumed to ABR's opinions and as newb-scum didn't know any better to hide all the blatant buddying big enough to choke a horse.

Sorry, what? Shotty was right up in hewitt's business with his boy ABR and now ABR and DLA are scumbuddies? This is rubbish. When called on lining up lynches, he says (with historical innacuracy):

Who pushed Hewitt's lynch the hardest? ABR and DLA? Last time I checked pushing mislynches was bad? Hewitt said the same thing in 278. Why aren't you busting his balls?

Please point out how it is rubbish champ, nice of you to throw out conjecture, I find it amusing how badly you want to disprove the link between DLA and ABR. Let's see the posts that relate them shall we.

ABR specifically ignores DLA's terrible OMGUS against farside, he goes on that page to ask other's about DLA without commenting on it himself and finally excuses post 74 in 99 contingent on a reasonable explanation that never comes and ABR never presses him for, intent to hunt the easy target Ell instead.

DLA defends ABR against Hewitt.

DLA feels the need to apologize to ABR

ABR literally

telling

him how to scum-hunt. Funny how his lack of scum-hunting isn't scummy but should be corrected and then ignored even though it gets no better.

DLA votes saber for BWing which saber has been doing all game, funny how he only mentions it when it was a vote on him or ABR, how odd. He even started this pattern all the way back in post 193 when Saber voted for ABR.

I also like how you continually try to tie my case on Hewitt to ABR when we voted for entirely separate things and I developed my own case as I talked to Hewitt which ABR later added onto his reasons Hewitt was scummy.

I mention wanting to lynch to DLA before ABR even moves his vote from the Hewitt wagon, so I don't see how that suddenly made me want to attack DLA. It has far more to do with DLA after his awesome scum-hunting (AKA OMGUS posts) in between my mentioning that and my next post.

If you at all doubt DLA's scuminess or that I was pushing an easy wagon without original thought here you all fucking go. I did all this on my own and mentioned this as my preferred lynch repeatedly, even when no one else was thinking about it, guess I only hunt the easy targets lolol /sarcasm.

OMGUS vote for Farside that "isn't OMGUS" guys, for sure

FoS for a bullshit reason given that I'd been posting against Hewitt and voting him for a page or two uninterrupted and the players I mentioned hadn't posted for pages.

Calls SEVEN people scum in a game with 3, waffles on Hewitt, wants to call farside town but fails to pick a position on her due to some nonsense about her being skilled and getting up her post count (WTF?), only 'town' player listed is ABR SHOCKING!

Votes here only after I mention wanting to lynch him, never replies to my points against his case, which is weak as hell. I countered every point but of course he declines to address any of them.

Votes CSL because CSL voted him, OMGUS vote from DLA? SHOCKING AGAIN! GOOD THING THIS AIN'T AN ELECTRIC CHAIR!

Another vote where I try to confront his ridiculous reasoning with logic and he once again declines, it was hard to even try considering how one of his points was him being town, another that he saw my future play, and the third being that I somehow spoke for everyone

There is more but this is already a gigantic wall, which I apologise for but it's my replacing in post. Essentially, he then defends CSL to show he's not going after easy targets and to try to heap crap onto farside when the reality is at about post 160 he said he was prepared to lynch TWO SEPARATE EASY TARGETS in saber and DLA.

Of course there's always more unmentioned, the good wrap-up to any legitimate case.

Right at 160 huh. My only post on that page was about Kikuchiyo's fucking avatar, amazing how you provide outright misinformation in your post.

The post he's trying to reference was my fourth post of the game, barely out of RVS where I said I was willing to vote Saber or DLA for what they'd done in the first few pages. Of course I'm "hunting easy lynches" there, along with the rest of the scum on DLA's aforementioned awesome list I suppose, which is like everyone at this point. I think 'everyone' at this point includes at least 5 other players including Farside, ABR, Kikuchiyo, Konowa, Neto all were talking about running up either Saber or DLA at this point.

BTW all of my content against DLA and the connections to ABR are original and thoughtful. If you can't find a reason to lynch DLA and REASONABLY SUSPECT ABR if DLA is scum based on all this information you're probably lying. Since you all QQ about lining up lynches let's take this one fucking day at a time and lynch DLA now kthx?

I don't know if I'm voting him already, but

unvote vote DLA

.[/quote]


Would Shotty do that if I were his scum bud?

^^ This post contains no other suspects. Anytime you would like to share your thoughts in that direction(you've been asked twice) is welcome.

You didn't "engage" Kitty imo, and you never came back to voice dissapproval of the hammer when it occurred. If you are off base, reread the end of the day before slinging bullshit accusations.

Shotty: What do you think of DLA? What do you think of SC?

SC: What do you think of DLA?

Farside: Should we lynch Shotty before DLA/Serial?

Saber: Thoughts?

Ahh... Kik... These posts aggrivate me. No joining the discussion, just spreading.

-----

I think CS is a better lynch. Shotty is playing aggressively, and a bit too hard (I think) to be scum. Kik however is staying leaned back.

SCUM

CS
Kik
Shotty
(...)
DLA =)

TOWN

[Ellibereth]

Before I read the previous post, let me say I had several moments of confusion where I thought DLA self-voted.

[Ellibereth]

Would Shotty do that if I were his scum bud?

As I have said several times already...yes

[kikuchiyo]

Where is hewitt?

DLA: What's wrong with asking players their opinions of other players? I find it a useful tool in solidifying reads as well as picking out scumpartners later in the game.

I'm not sold on Shotty. Not sure if its just because its the holidays, but we have a few backseaters today that need to post content.

[DarkLightA]

Sorry about the quote failing above.

Just in case:

unvote: CS
vote: CS

[Ellibereth]

When you say CS do you mean Serial?

[dramonic]

The Fifteenth Votecount: SC =! CS...

SerialClergyman (2): Scigatt, DarkLightA
DarkLightA (1): Farside,
Shotty (1): Ellibereth

Not Voting (6): Kise, SttB, Ojanen, SC, Kikuchiyo, hewitt

With 10 alive it take 6 to lynch!
Deadline is the 8th, but it can be extended.

Prods will be out tomorrow

[DarkLightA]

SC =! CS...

Meh... A mixture between CSL and SC, you know?

[Shotty to the Body]

Sorry guys, going to catch up here in the next couple days or so, I fell pretty far behind in all my games, just caught up in another.

[dramonic]

Prods sent to Kise, Hewitt and Scigatt.

[Shotty to the Body]

Elli makes no sense, why on God's green earth would I be buddies with DLA? How could I "know" DLA wouldn't be lynched, I fought tooth and nail for that wagon against like 4 or more people.

You guys can't have this both ways, either I buddied up to ABR to get on the Neto wagon or I didn't want to lynch Neto. I don't really feel like I buddied up to ABR at all, ironically SC of all people mentions this who was kissing ABR's ass from square one. I would've been down to lynch Neto if I couldn't have DLA lynched, but I sort of had finals to do.

As for DLA I still think he's scum, ABR would've been more likely scum if DLA flipped scum, but DLA was scummy independently.

Next thing I'm working on is a Kiku read.

[Scigatt]

Sorry, guys, still working on looking at Neto's posts.

Also, Shotty, you aren't doing yourself any favours with that attitude, and I have to say that it's pretty obnoxious.

[Shotty to the Body]

Another critic, I'm doing fantastic in finding them this game. I don't even know what 'attitude' there was in that last post. Any content you want to discuss, Scigatt?

[SerialClergyman]

You guys can't have this both ways, either I buddied up to ABR to get on the Neto wagon or I didn't want to lynch Neto. I don't really feel like I buddied up to ABR at all, ironically SC of all people mentions this who was kissing ABR's ass from square one. I would've been down to lynch Neto if I couldn't have DLA lynched, but I sort of had finals to do.

The problem isn't buddying - thep roblem is he was scum according to your theory of the game. I thought Albert was town, i said so repeatedly and make no apology for it. You outlined a theory that you fought tooth and nail for, apparantly, that had DLA scumbuddies with ABR and then just sort of stopped that theory and started buddying Albert by pushing to 'talk to him' about the Neto wagon. You don't see anything wrong or unusual about that?

[Ellibereth]

Shotty, who was the someone else when you said you had to reread Neto and someone else?

[DarkLightA]

NOV 26, 3 pm:

The relationship among Kikuchiyo/Shotty/Saber/Konowa seems to be very interesting. If any of them are scum, we'll need to reexamine these posts very closely.

Translating to todays people, that's Kikuchiyo/Shotty/Scigatt/Ojanen.

I think this might be significant.

----

7th DEC, 6am

First, Hewitt. Hewitt's overly aggressive defense is more than a bit troublesome, as are his bitter tirades towards the latter half of the game as it stands. I would not have suspected him had we not gotten into all of this with him.

----

7th DEC

Unvote, Vote: Ellibereth

Last few posts show a disconnect with the game, a borderline criminal lack of knowledge and a lack of original thought.

First off-RVS vote for him

----


9th DEC

KittyMo is replacing in! Always an improvement!
CSL is self voting! That may be the best vote he's ever cast!

Re-reading this makes me think that that last line isn't a bus.

Replied to by mod:

Players are to play to their wincon, it is completely anti-game to "give up" and self-vote like CSL is doing. as such, I shall replace the fellow ASAP

Woot! Even more awesome!

...Can...can I hug you, Dramonic? Just...just a little one? Please? This may just be the high point of my last 25 minutes - nay - even my last 2 hours!

Okay, forget that "Not a bus" business. I'm thinking this is more of a "Yay, new scum partner thing"

AFTER REPLACING:

Aw, shit SC. You replaced the wrong dude!

Yo, if you haven't given him his role PM yet, give him Konowa's! Jesus..lol keeping my vote on CSL/SC.

----

9th DEC

Unvote, vote: ABR

He's not the best play today (That's DLA), but I want to use this vote to send a message that, well, I'd really like an answer to that question and to preserve my earlier reasoning about his possible scummishness.

I feel loved =)

----

9th DEC

Please. I've been in a game in which CSL DID, in an umprompted manner, claim scum. In this game, he did not all but claim scum. He showed his normal characteristic lack of understanding of gameplay, his normal weak arguments and his normal incomprehensibility. That may have still been a valid reason for his lynch, but since we now have SC, it is no longer an avenue to pursue.

Defending SC much????

----

I have no case on ABR, but his feeling of invincibility has me uneasy. However, I have reason to believe that he is town. I'm just vote hopping, trying to find something that I can finally lock down and go, this is why he deserves my vote.

Who haven't I voted for yet?

unvote; vote: Farside22

Your turn. I shall look at your posts and see if this is valid or not, most likely not. I should try to at least reinforce why you come off as town to me.

What the heck? I vote ABR to make a point, you hop on and vote him as well. I unvote him because I didn't want too many votes on him, then all of a sudden you feel a loss of conviction and unvote as well?

Vote: Saberwolf

First attack on Saber, and he points out what's been pointed out so much before, before voting. BUSSING??

FoS: Saber

----

unvote; vote: SC

I must say I liked this one best from the beginning, and here my vote will stay for the rest of the day.

What are you doing? Can you not read our posts? Are you fully and completely oblivious to the arguments against you? Good grief, man, your actions today are approaching as-of-yet unseen levels of absurdity!

WHY ARE YOU SWITCHING YOUR VOTE SO OFTEN AND WITHOUT EXPLANATION, SABERWOLF?

Saber switches to CS, and Neto goes crazy...

UnFoS: Saber

----

Uh, yeah. Let's just lynch Saberwolf. It's clear to me, at least, that he's going to be a huge liability in this game.

Okay, okay.

Double UnFoS: Saber

----

Given CSL's record (In 84% of his games, he's been either lynched D1 or has replaced out), is it really appropriate to transfer his acts over to SC as you automatically did?

Again the scum is defending SC.

----

Oh, and some further points on CSL...I compiled his history at this site just to make sure that I wasn't wholly off point.

N830 - Lynched D1
N852 - Survived and won
Normal 102 - Replaced
N834 - Replaced
N839 - Lynched D2
Stars Aligned - Lynched D4 (Same day as he replaced in)
O185 - Lynched D1
O162 - Lynched D1, claimed scum
O165 - Replaced (Due to banning due to the breakage of the night-talking rule)
O167 - Replaced
M847 - Replaced
N806 - Lynched D3 (same day as he replaced in)
M105 - Lynched D1
N824 - Lynched D1
N825 - Lynched D3
O177 - Replaced
M102 - Replaced
O185 - Lynched D1


(N=Newbie, Normal = Normal, M = Mini)

Lynched D1 or same day that he replaced into - 8 times (44%)
Replaced - 7 times (38%)
Lynched later or won - 3 (16%)

Total games: 18


He's been scum in 2 of those games. Thus, if you're lynching CSL on D1, the chances are that, more likely than not, it is a mislynch.

Again, defending SC.

-----

Let me elaborate a bit more:

The argument is that SC is scummy because CSL was scummy.

My statistic shows that CSL will be found scummy whether or not he is scum-aligned.

Therefore, CSL's scumminess is not a good predictor of scumminess.

Therefore, SC should be evaluated without CSL's posts taken into account.

----

So, what do you guys think. I think that SC is obv-scum..

[kikuchiyo]

I tend to agree. the defense is so protracted, and I believe that most of it came when Neto was not on the table for lynch(though I'd have to see a vote analysis for comparison). I think ABR was the only one pressuring Neto for some time. Hopefully our lurkers will return.

[Ojanen]

Tl;dr SC is spouting bullshit. Only Albert and Farside expressed any interest whatsoever in hearing from Kitty and Ojanen. Trying to paint that as some sort of cooperative town decision to wait on the hammer is entirely false. Again: SC is trying to have it both ways.

No.

At the time you hammered there were several conversations going on, contrary to Serial's fake hammer time. Albert had stressed not to hammer, modifying his stance from earlier. Serial had even just asked a question. Discussions were clearly, clearly more unfinished. Also, you had gotten disapproving remarks for an awful post.

What on earth was the point of that post you posted after you thought Serial had hammered by the way?

Looks like I missed all the fun while I was lurking.
If Neto flips scum then SC is scum?
If Neto flips town then ABR is scum?
Yes, no, from everyone please.

Beside being pointless post-lynch (as you thought) chaining, let's flip the last one to "if Neto flips scum the ABR is town". Ta-daa, we have the nightkill, and we have the person you seem to be attacking on a somehow more decisive way than your earlier actions are.

Going back to the hammer,

Why did you hammer?

I was bored. Sorry, but this girl likes excitement.
I think Saber is town. Does that make you feel better?

Maybe this was a joke, but I'd like to point out that you had been flaker-voting and then not voting at all since

page 8

. Yuk!
The wagon stalling thing, I note it hasn't come up with any other wagons so far, thinking of hewitt being quite similar but would need to check this.
Also lack of consistency to not voting right now, even though she's agreeing on SC being obvscum.
Disliked excusing herself as part of the wagon btw - none of the Neto momentum came from her spot.

I tend to agree. the defense is so protracted, and I believe that most of it came when Neto was not on the table for lynch(though I'd have to see a vote analysis for comparison). I think ABR was the only one pressuring Neto for some time. Hopefully our lurkers will return.

Actually a reasonable chunk of it came also when Neto was under heavy attack leading to likely lynch. He was being connected to CSL/SC, it would make sense from scum to strenghthen that.

---

DLA and SC are

STILL TOWN

, dammit.

I have a townread on DLA on his own.
Neto goes out on a slight limb to meta-defend DLA early, then on goes to pains on how to change that stance to attacking him.
The original statement sticks too much out as purposefully deviant to be likely buddy defending instead of townpoint-searching. And Neto feels way too careful in the switch. If DLA was scum, the tone would be different, less scared of consequences of a nonconsistent stance before the vote.

Serial is not scummy. Reread my initial catchup for expansion, don't wanna repeat. I do not like the manner of the attack today by kiku. Obviously Neto defended CSL which gives some pause but I don't currently see that as a likely scum-scum interaction.

"Don't hold replacement's actions against them" was weird from Neto. Slight wifom scumpoints to the Yarmond spot I think then, whoever's turn it is not to play it currently (Kise?).

[Ellibereth]

Oj, what do you think about Shotty?

[Ojanen]

I'm kinda disconnected from my D1 notes currently, meh, a week ago feels like a lifetime ago. The bulk of the kiku notes would have been callouts for very reactive playing, isos promised not happening, lack of commenting on dramatic events which is a very useful scumtell, lack of positions.
Slight tone problems with Neto commenting stuff like

Oh, hi. Forgot you were playing. You seem to be doing an excellent job of going unnoticed

and not pursuing further. Something else too, don't remember, would have to look again.

I will decide my vote once I have reread Shotty, I'm deciding between kiku and Shotty atm. That will happen now or tomorrow night. Pretty tired, like always when I reach the computer currently.

[Ojanen]

Oh, Elli, didn't see that before I posted.
I thought he was considerably scummy D1. Will reread and relook at old notes tomorrow to elaborate.

[kikuchiyo]

At the time you hammered there were several conversations going on, contrary to Serial's fake hammer time.

I disagree. Only two players requested time, and one of them put Neto to L-1. If Albert wanted to stall for time then he shouldn't have revoted. See what you are doing here:

[quote"Oj"] Disliked excusing herself as part of the wagon btw - none of the Neto momentum came from her spot.[/quote]

You can't have it both ways. Either give me credit for being on the wagon, or don't. In situation 1 you are "blaming" me for ending the day(even though Neto was scum.) In situation 2 you are condemning me for pointing out that I hammered. That's not really fair. If we leave the thread open, people are going to continue to talk.

Deadline was just as far away when Serial hammered.

There were still two players who had contiributed very little.

Albert had stressed not to hammer, modifying his stance from earlier.

Again: no. He put Neto back to L-1. Neto could have self hammered to end discussion.

Serial had even just asked a question.

Correct. Let's look atr that question:

Could you explain how a Neto scumflip or townflip would affect your reads?

Interesting question, especially when you place it besides mine:

If Neto flips scum then SC is scum?
If Neto flips town then ABR is scum?
Yes, no, from everyone please.

So we should have waited around for Serial to get an answer to his question, but when I ask almost the exact same question, you say:

Beside being pointless post-lynch (as you thought) chaining, let's flip the last one to "if Neto flips scum the ABR is town". Ta-daa, we have the nightkill, and we have the person you seem to be attacking on a somehow more decisive way than your earlier actions are.

What exactly are you implying here? I don't quite understand it, but my point is that you are giving Serial "town" points for asking the exact same question.

The wagon stalling thing, I note it hasn't come up with any other wagons so far, thinking of hewitt being quite similar but would need to check this.
Also lack of consistency to not voting right now, even though she's agreeing on SC being obvscum.

You're not voting yet either. Though I think SC is obvscum here, that doesn't mean we should pile on and finish him. He may very well be town. Interesting how you characterize my day 1 play as "hammering early", and now criticze me for being conservative.

Actually a reasonable chunk of it came also when Neto was under heavy attack leading to likely lynch. He was being connected to CSL/SC, it would make sense from scum to strenghthen that.

Part of what makes this decision so tough. Let's not argue the semantics of a "reasonable chunk", but I'm not going to discoiunt the idea that Neto buddied townSC.

I do not like the manner of the attack today by kiku.

You are confusing me. I am suspicious because I am not voting, but you don't like my "manner of attack". Who have I actually "attacked"? I feel like I spent the beginning of the day defending myself from Serial, and the players I suggested we start filtering are those not on the scum wagon from yesterday. Same question to you as to the others: Even if you are suspicious of me, do you think that both scum were on the day 1 scumwagon? If so, who else is scum? If not, why try and use my theory against me when the odds are clearly in support of my logic(1/4 is easier to sift through than 1/6.)

"Don't hold replacement's actions against them" was weird from Neto. Slight wifom scumpoints to the Yarmond spot I think then, whoever's turn it is not to play it currently (Kise?).

This is difficult to figure out as well. Inactives are usually easy targets for scum, so going out of one's way to protect player slots that are nearly vacant just makes little sense. Wifom, and almost to me seems like a train of thought we should abandon.

Oj: Who did Neto pursue as scum on day 1?

[DarkLightA]

Beside being pointless post-lynch (as you thought) chaining, let's flip the last one to "if Neto flips scum the ABR is town". Ta-daa, we have the nightkill, and we have the person you seem to be attacking on a somehow more decisive way than your earlier actions are.

This is just ridiculous. You know just as well as me that ABR was pretty much obv-town, especially after the lynch, and it would be stupid for scum not to lynch him, regardless of kik's post. She was just stating the obvious.

[farside22]

Farside: Should we lynch Shotty before DLA/Serial?

This is all theory mind you.
If DLA is scum this makes shotty look less scum. We lynch serial and serial is scum then shotty has a lot of explanation on his desire to get DLA lynched over SC.
Both of the lynches give in formation on shotty. I just keep coming back to the neto defense and how strong he was on it. I go back to SC who fights on shotty after shotty defending CSL and there is that pit in my stomach that wonders more about it.
I think I want to read all 3 of these guys again.
I think my biggest problem with the shotty scum is that SC pushed it but ABR didn't want to get involved. I'm not sure why and it bothers me a lot.

Honestly kiku hammering scum doesn't bother me. Him talking (her? sorry I'm tired and can't think about gender) and looking at those not on the neto lynch isn't scummy per se as it's valid to think scum wasn't on the wagon. But yes it does give the pause that SC is talking. I don't see this as scummie because I'm not basing my vote and comments just on who was on Neto wagon and who wasn't.

@scigatt: *tries to put this politely* how did you find shotty's post had an attitude in it?

Ojanen:
Neto goes out on a slight limb to meta-defend DLA early, then on goes to pains on how to change that stance to attacking him.

Post post how you saw Neto was attacking DLA?

[Kise]

Kise should chime in with a day 1 analysis

Cot damn it dramo didn't tell me this was 40 pages lol. I'll see what I can do. I'm gonna be cliche and say that if anyone wants to direct me to a post/concern, I'll give thoughts on it, if it helps move the phase along. I'll do a pbp thing like tomorrow night. Probably won't get higher than page 10.