Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[SerialClergyman]

elvis, I don't doubt some of that is true, but that's not the point. The point is that attitude is costing the town by creating suspicion where suspicion shouldn't be created. I know that it's maddening for scum because I've BEEN scum when this sort of thing has happened and it IS maddening. I keep asking because I want those who are town who are going along with the general feeling to question it, and actually think about what the issue is and whether you or I are actually likelier to be scum because of it. Not everyone who is frustrated or unhappy about the behaviour are scum.

[elvis_knits]

I agree, SC. I think suspicion of our "buddying" has been exploited to created an aura of paranoia in the town. It is hard to know who comes from a town perspective on it, and who has exploited it to their advantage because they're scum.

BTW, do you really think buttonmen is town? Reading his MD contributions and such he does strike me as quite sure of himself for a relative newbie. Do you think it is just his arrogance making him say "shooting is investigating" and sticking to it like he knows what he's talking about?

[SerialClergyman]

His contributions in other forums lead me to think he's a brusque person of few words who I disagree with a lot. His play in this game hasn't deviated from that perception at all. I am frustrated at how he is viewed within the town, and especially find it odd that breaking the game is regarded as that strong a town tell (except when I do it ) but I sort of understand the processes behind the actions, I think.

What are your thoughts about the subject? Can you not see him sticking to those opinions unless he has scummy motives?

[elvis_knits]

The problem with saying "shooting is investigating" is that it is anti-town. It gives scum an excuse to kill and claim vig. It's a generally dangerous and irresponsible thing to advocate. Also misleading, since a vig is not considered an investigative role.

Also, he was pushing for imprints before lynches. I explained many times why we should imprint AFTER a lynch and then no-lynch. Otherwise you're robbing the town of info -- info that might have influenced who they want to imprint. He never really argued about it with me, but just kept trying for what he wanted, which was imprints, specifically himself since he's been the front-runner for days.

These are two big instances where he is advocating anti-town plans, pro-scum plans.

So either he is misguided townie who is so arrogant he won't even contemplate the situation where he might be wrong, or he's scum. He seems generally intelligent from what I see of him, which makes it seem more suspicious to me that he doesn't see how anti-town the things he is pushing really are. However, newbieness (inexperience) and arrogance could help account for this. Basically I think he's either wrong and really arrogant or scum.

[xRECKONERx]

Checking in. I agree that no townie should kill if they get the ability

[SerialClergyman]

Read the first sentence of my last post and rephrase away from the very carefully chosen words and you've got the side I'm on, at least for now

But I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the situation.

[SerialClergyman]

When are you going to get a bit of time to post, Reck? Feels like we're talking about you, not to you.

[farside22]

I was trying to avoid this discussion about the "buddying" because I could not think of a way to say it nicely.
So let me start this by saying I"m sorry for what I"m about to say.

1) If I see someone that is town and I'm town I will listen to them but I will still have suspicion on them in the back of my mind as I'm wondering if they are using my town read against me. The fact the 2 of you ignore any scum action based on a day 1 WIFOM is ludicrous. I for one am never 100% on any one player till more scum are lynched or i'm scum
2) a scum player that buddies up to a town typically do this with the hopes that if they are lynched the town player will be lynched do to the buddying (can't tell you how I got played by scum once and this happened to me)
3) finally my issue isn't the buddying (although it's something that can make me just roll my eyes) it's the fact that even when someone points out something that is indeed scummy you close you're eyes to it and carry on like it isn't there that gives me scum vibes. IE: scum trying to protect each other from a lynch.

These 3 issues is why I'm undecided about the so called town tell based on WIFOM.

[SerialClergyman]

farside - there' nothing even remotely not nice about that. I'll say now I was genuinely hurt to learn you were thinking of replacing out due to martyr-like behaviour from me and her, provided that was true - I thought that was really quite harsh and upsetting. But that above was totally fine and the sort of discussion I'd long to have about the issue.

1) I can't speak for elvis but there are things she could do that would make me immediately drop it. Just because I sound sure doesn't mean I am, and it doens't make it unflappable.
2) I feel at the moment there are plenty of town tells being ignored or unmentioned because it's put down to more nauseating buddying. There are plenty of reasons to think elvis (and myself) town besides from the one WIFOMic statement.
3) Everyone has opinions on everyone's alignment all the time. Up front opinions are generally the good ones to have. It's much more protown to be open about it rather than defend without trying to give the impression of defending.
4) What else can one do? Say 'I think elvis MAY be town but there are possible hypothetical actions she may take in the future that would devalue this read?' I think this comes back to what I said earlier about our different playstyles - I'm perfectly happy to jump to a conclusion and go with it until it doesn't make sense. You're the opposite in a way, you prefer to play with a constant reminder that everything is uncertain.

In short, when asked the question 'What do you do when you have a strong read on someone as town', the answer 'Say so loudly and clearly and point out why' doesn't seem like such an unreasonable response.

[farside22]

In a normal mafia game, no I would not say OMG this person is town as you might as well paint a target on their back to the mafia if they are town. I think it's bad practice.
This game things SC ignored. Blantant misinterpretation from EK, the OMGUS case she tried to present about me with some comment about DN is correct her constant ignoring facts and comments all ring scum read on EK.
Her scum hunting has been based more on DN flip then reading everything said in the game.
Thing EK ignored/missed: SC pushing more of a case on SB over DN most of day 1. SC taking the imprints out of town's hands.
Ignoring these actions does not give a town view. It means you are both blind to any possibility of the other as scum.
As for the martyr-like attitude I think that discussion should be saved to later as it was more personal the game related and if you didn't like how I stated my comments prior you won't like that one either.

[elvis_knits]

I didn't do any of the stuff you're saying in 1059. Haven't we already discussed all of it? And didn't we call a truce and become friends?

Farside, as for the concept of town people trying to find other townies... that has been a trend in mafia games more recently among certain players. I think you were taking a break when this started happening more. I'm thinking of rofl, tajo, and dgb, lots of players do it. Pronounce others town based on their reads. And it doesn't mean it's set in stone, but it means that's how you feel about them at the moment. It's always up for reassessment depending on what happens in the future.

[elvis_knits]

And saying someone is town doesn't necessarily paint a target on the player's back so the mafia know who to kill.

1)Scum don't even have a kill in this game unless we imprint them
2)In a normal game, a obvtown probably gets a doc protect so can't be killed immediately.
3)The obvtown person can usually get a lot of good done before getting NKed. If there is one who can unite the town and be trusted, they can do a lot of good, and if they get NKed later, it's totally worth it to me.

[Limerickx]

I did.

What about scumReck makes you think scumpug?

This is pretty much summed up in my Post 857 where I thought that xRECK was trying to nudge Pug into an imprint before the end of the night, almost like a 'well guys, Pug is going to be the imprint, lets go ahead and finish it off and take it to night.' Its possible I saw something where there was nothing, but due to the fact that I was suspicious of xRECK before, it was enough to catch my attention. If xRECK WERE to flip scum, it would make me a bit more suspicious of Pug. Certainly not an "If xRECK then pug" level of strength (after all, maybe Button is sneaky scum and xRECK just wanted to get on with it), but it would certainly increase my suspicion.

[Limerickx]

E_K and SC, I think the problem people have with your buddying is the LEVEL that it is apparent, and the earliness in which it happened.

You give the appearance that you're unflexable in your assurance that the other is town, a view that you seemed to cement VERY VERY early on in the game. Now, you just said you would change if the situation warrants, and thats fine, but its the APPEARANCE that you put out that puts people on edge.

Its kind of like the idea of 'professional skepticism' in the accounting world. When someone is auditing a company, they don't start with the assumption that there is fraud, and they don't assume the opposite. It could be the last day, and nothing has been found up to that point, but you still need to look at each piece as if it was something new. Your interactions with E_K give the vibe that your reliance on each other would make it hard to spot scumminess in the others play, because you're looking for someone to bounce ideas off of only, and considering if their play is scummy....somewhere near the bottom.

[TheButtonmen]

BTW, do you really think buttonmen is town? Reading his MD contributions and such he does strike me as quite sure of himself for a relative newbie. Do you think it is just his arrogance making him say "shooting is investigating" and sticking to it like he knows what he's talking about?

My experiance with mafia is in the offline variety, please note what the MD topics are about, the purely online parts of MS.

As for my thoughts on the buddying, I agree with supporting your town reads but you two did it far to early and agressivly for my comfort and you responded to pressure on it by seemingly doubling down.

@ Socrates

; I'm almost positive that negative effects can be attached to imprinting process.

[elvis_knits]

buttonmen, scale of 1-10, how arrogant are you?

[TheButtonmen]

Seven.

[elvis_knits]

That's not so bad. But your arrogance probably won't let you get an accurate read. Could be higher?

[TheButtonmen]

Elvis who would you investistigate?

[TheButtonmen]

And why?

[farside22]

I didn't do any of the stuff you're saying in 1059. Haven't we already discussed all of it? And didn't we call a truce and become friends?

Farside, as for the concept of town people trying to find other townies... that has been a trend in mafia games more recently among certain players. I think you were taking a break when this started happening more. I'm thinking of rofl, tajo, and dgb, lots of players do it. Pronounce others town based on their reads. And it doesn't mean it's set in stone, but it means that's how you feel about them at the moment. It's always up for reassessment depending on what happens in the future.

which one are you saying you didn't do because I will be glad to quote.
As for a truce it's not a complete truce as I see scum with reck honestly.
I was asked to provide reason and I did. Ignoring a scummy action on a town read is ludicrous. I don't care how much mafia I do I don't trust half the players and those I have a town read on I even feel suspicion on.
I see dgb do it and xyl say player X is town. Doesn't mean I agree with it. Yes there is a doctor in some games, but not all and no my comment didn't not include this game I stated where I see budding bad is scum buddies a townie. I'm sure scum doesn't mind a mislynch of town by budding to someone they know to be town.

[elvis_knits]

Elvis who would you investistigate?

Reckoner (or VMD/replaced by Koc?)

They're my top suspects and I would use my investigation to either confirm my suspicion or avert a potential mislynch.

[xRECKONERx]

I don't get home till Monday night. So nothing big before then.

[CrashTextDummie]

I should probably stop dealing with SerialClergyman for a while after this. I don't think it's healthy for my read on the game, and if he's town, I don't think it's healthy for his read on the game either.

Having said that:

Lol. My questions aren't intended to pin you down in some logical trap, they're intended to try to get townies to reconsider their positions. When I ask why would scum work so hard to clear a townie, it's not so that I can 'beat' your argument, it's because it's a good question that I'd expect a townie to at least acknowledge within themselves. Even if your answer is 'I have no idea' - you definitely SHOULD care. It's important. And that's because it SHOULD be affecting your read. Even if it doesn't CHANGE the read, you need to at least acknowledge that there's a piece out of place.

I don't think you've presented anything that is out of place with my theory that VMD is scum. It's not that I don't care, it's that I don't care to argue with you about it anymore (unless warranted). The thing is that I

have

acknowledged and considered most of those kinds of questions you could and did bring up in any given situation, and either dismissed them or incorporated them into my analysis.

I'll say this once again, as clearly as I can:
DN was scum. VMD tried to push another wagon ahead of him based on crap reasoning. That makes me suspicious of VMD, irregardless of anything else.

Did that totally not answer the question?

You lack in reading comprehension. You asked how this post could have lead me to believe that Lew is more likely town. The answer, to spell it out once again for you is that

VMD tried to get Lew lynched over DN

. Stuff like that screams deflection to me.

---------

I'm cutting this short here because I really don't want to deal with SC anymore right now.

My next course of action is an analysis of Pug. Probably Plum/replacement after that. I'll check if there's anything for me to adress in the couple pages since my last post.

[CrashTextDummie]

Just read through KoC's analysis again, and I'm decidedly underwhelmed. About the only thing he came up with is "SC and EK" are bad, which is pretty scarce considering where he is in his read. There was one other statement on a player's alignment, and it feels contradictory to me:

Buttonmen has been quietly solid since his game-breaking attempts, which were anti-GAME rather than anti-town, and is giving me town vibes all the way through since. If we imprint anyone today I suggest him.

And yet he spent several early paragraphs of his analysis accusing Buttonmen of anti-town actions, such as:

THe Buttonmen's logic in these first couple of pages is shitty and bad and adjective

and feels scummy

in that he continues pushing it after it's shown to be these things.

(emphasis mine)

[...]the attempts by Buttonmen to force the town into his plan feel like pushing away from actual scumhunting.

Doesn't sound to me like he considered these anti-game rather than anti-town.

Not sure why VMD's LoS was "atrocious", would like an explanation for this.

She had all active players in the game as neutral or higher. The only two people she expressed suspicions on were a guy who had never posted and a guy who had posted very little. That suggests a severe lack of scum-hunting, and is therefore very scummy in my book. Plus, her case on Lew was complete rubbish. As is the fact that she abandoned these suspicions as soon as those people were replaced.