Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[CrashTextDummie]

And how do you feel about xRECKONERx imprint-hammering TheButtonmen?

[farside22]

And how do you feel about xRECKONERx imprint-hammering TheButtonmen?

I personally feel concerned..........it gives me pause.


As for trying to get a read on my and how I play good luck with that SC I am a random, emotionally, crazy, scum hunting female. I'm starting to think only I see obvious things, point them out and just get ignored.
*sigh*

[TheButtonmen]

And how do you feel about xRECKONERx imprint-hammering TheButtonmen?

I personally feel concerned..........it gives me pause.


As for trying to get a read on my and how I play good luck with that SC I am a random, emotionally, crazy, scum hunting female. I'm starting to think only I see obvious things, point them out and just get ignored.
*sigh*

Prexisting concerns about me or concerns that were raised when someone you find scummy hammered me?

[SerialClergyman]

CTD's posts are truly excellent and an indication of a great player. I think he's definitely wrong on one count, probably wrong on another (VMD) and probably right about Reck.

The reason why I wanted to hear his case against Reck was that it was important that the case had more than Reck's D2 actions. The slips he found were convincing. But Reck's voting pattern mimicks Messiah's almost exactly. If you have a look above, you'll see they're on each major wagon and they're very close to each other, which means they made their movement at around the same time. So if your case had just been concerned with voting patterns it would have at the least been utterly hypocritical.

I won't lie - CTD's posts have given me some cause for concern and some reason to doubt my theory. I don't doubt that he is a strong enough player to make those posts as scum with reck, but it certainly seems less likely. And then farside joining the case against Rec seemed to come out of the blue and throw me as well. 3 day-talking scum really screw with my usual way of catching scum I think.

Anyways - CTD, if you're up for a Reck lynch, I'll be down with that. If you want to lynch me, it's inevitable it'll happen at some point for some reason, so consider this my ringing endorsement of VMD as prob-town.

[SerialClergyman]

farside - I odn't have that opinion of you at all. I think you're a strong player who is dilligent and concerned with the game. The problem is I don't know how youp lay as scum, and I don't know what changes of mind are spontaenous and what might be manufactured. I don't mean to ignore you, and I could probably be more in depth in my analysis of what you say, I just don't necessarily agree with you much. We also seem to come from different directions - you cautiously come to shaky conclusions, I quickly jump to solid conclusions and then re-assess as new evidence comes to hand. This gives me the frustrating opinion that you aren't prepared to go with everything and are constantly going back on your thought process, and gives you the frustrating feeling that I have no right to be as sure as I am about where my position is.

CTD - Pug never seems to do anything I find scummy. He could be lurker scum archetype, but doesn't really seem to fit it to me. He's been on the right wagons (clarification - the sort of wagons I'd expect a townie to be on), hasn't imprinted the wrong people. I've just never had my scumdar really raised by him. I could be missing something, but I haven't seen much to fear yet.

XrecX hammering buttonman might give me pause a little, given I think button is town and reck is scum, but it's not that strong an indication until alignments are confirmed. And even then - we all know who button man would use any ability on. It's not really a risk to the scum team because when button gets his ability it'll be me he targets. In fact, pushing strongly for a no lynch with just buttonman imprinted is not a half bad option for scum at this point.

[farside22]

And how do you feel about xRECKONERx imprint-hammering TheButtonmen?

I personally feel concerned..........it gives me pause.


As for trying to get a read on my and how I play good luck with that SC I am a random, emotionally, crazy, scum hunting female. I'm starting to think only I see obvious things, point them out and just get ignored.
*sigh*

Prexisting concerns about me or concerns that were raised when someone you find scummy hammered me?

pause more because someone I find scummy hammers for your imprint

[TheButtonmen]

And even then - we all know who button man would use any ability on. It's not really a risk to the scum team because when button gets his ability it'll be me he targets.

We do?

[farside22]

farside - I odn't have that opinion of you at all. I think you're a strong player who is dilligent and concerned with the game. The problem is I don't know how youp lay as scum, and I don't know what changes of mind are spontaenous and what might be manufactured. I don't mean to ignore you, and I could probably be more in depth in my analysis of what you say, I just don't necessarily agree with you much. We also seem to come from different directions - you cautiously come to shaky conclusions, I quickly jump to solid conclusions and then re-assess as new evidence comes to hand. This gives me the frustrating opinion that you aren't prepared to go with everything and are constantly going back on your thought process, and gives you the frustrating feeling that I have no right to be as sure as I am about where my position is.

You and EK have been the most vocal and many a thing I find scummy. Doesn't mean there isn't more scum. Just that I need to go back and reread a few things and see who else I find scummy.
There are 3 scum left in this game and when you have about 5-6 players you feel fit under a category it's good to go against those that are more vocal sometimes and see if they slip further.
Other cases it's good to bring out those lurkering.

[CrashTextDummie]

3 day-talking scum really screw with my usual way of catching scum I think.

For the record, stuff like this bothers me. I personally had forgotten about the day-talking about 5 minutes after having read the sample role pms and it didn't influence me in my reading of the game at all.

The fact that you're so keenly aware of it makes me feel that it's probably because you're involved in said daytalking.

Anyways - CTD, if you're up for a Reck lynch, I'll be down with that. If you want to lynch me, it's inevitable it'll happen at some point for some reason, so consider this my ringing endorsement of VMD as prob-town.

The only thing I'm up for today is a no-lynch. After that, I haven't made up my mind on who I want to lynch first. Currently still leaning towards VMD, I think.

Will deal with everything else tomorrow.

[TheButtonmen]

@ Farside

; Ask me a question.

[farside22]

@ Farside

; Ask me a question.

Who are your current top 3 scum and why?
If you were given an investigation ability who of the 3 would you investigate?

[SerialClergyman]

The fact that you're so keenly aware of it makes me feel that it's probably because you're involved in said daytalking.

*shrug*. It bothers me. My playstyle depends on them not having the level of communication I think they have. It's hard to look for patterns when the scum can react to everything you say and go through how they should stage their place on the wagons. It's a constant thorn in my side this game.

What about the quote of VMD's with me vs starbuck town v town? I really think that's a particularly strong town tell.

Buttonmen - you even specifically said if you had vig powers you'd shoot me. Maybe you'll pull out some crazy stunt, but you've been gunning for me all game and I can't see an imprint likely to be used in any other manner other than to bring me down.

[CrashTextDummie]

What about the quote of VMD's with me vs starbuck town v town? I really think that's a particularly strong town tell.

Since your argument hinges on you being town, I naturally don't consider it a particularly strong town tell.

What do you make of her treatment of DN on D1? It's the kind of stuff you strung Starbuck up for.

[TheButtonmen]

In no particular order;

Serial or Elvis, their interactions right from the very start were off and when pressured they have doubled down and full out super buddied. I find both misrepresent / exagerate a fair amount and have some kind of expectation that town is/should be following them. However at the moment I think only 1 of them is scum.

Plum was high on my list for lurking, dropping a summery then lurking and rinse and repeat. This allowed her to get by without interacting with the rest of the town. She was actually my planned target tonight if I got an investigative role. However her requesting a replacment has scrubbed that, her replacment will be recieving some carried over suspcioun though.

XReckonerX is someone I'm finding that while I don't fully agree with all the points being made agianst him. I'm becoming more curious as to his responses as time goes on.

As for the investigative role (though that's 2 questions not 1); As i previously mentioned the target I was planning to investiagte should I get that ability was Plum who is being replaced; at this point (and its fluid at the moment) I would probably investiagte Pug89 as I'm finding I can't get a read on him or Elvis because I'm 50 / 50 on if she is scum or not.

[SerialClergyman]

I seriously wonder why some people strung up Starbuck because she supposedly defended DN and yet pretty much ignored the fact that Vala actually defended DN, based on weak reasoning to boot.

This sums up our difference in positions. I don't see overtly defending someone as scummy most of the time. It depends on the situation, but I felt Starbuck's was much less likely to come from scum because she referred to him while talking about other people's actions, and held up the idea that he was being attacked for his ideas, not for him being scummy, yet when asked she was much more reserved and unwilling to commit (even to the 'not completely scummy' read in that first post, he got reeled back to neutral as soon as I linked them together.)

Now - I was wrong about that, and I'll put my hand up for that, but I continue to think that sort of defence is MUCH more likely to come from scum than an overt declaration. I could be wrong again, but in general I don't have much problems with overt stuff. She looked to me like she was genuinely warning others of DN's meta.

Also - this:

Note also that in this post, she wants to allow for Starbuck to "become guilty by association" to DN and lewarcher. And she also re-states that she wants to keep around DN not because she doesn't find him scummy, but because she finds someone else more scummy. This is the kind of stuff that makes me very suspicious (note also that her behavior towards lewarcher at this stage made me lean towards town on him, this is for future reference once I analyze xRECKONERx).

Doesn't make sense. She ties Starbuck to lewarcher MORE STORNGLY than she ties SB to DN. If that's the case, lew should be scum or SB should be scum. If VMD is scum with DN, then she should be letting me tie SB with DN, not interjecting and saying the tie with lew (town in this scenario) is more important.

[TheButtonmen]

@ Serial,

Yes I'd vig you but there's a lot more power roles then vig.

@ Farside

; How do you feel this being nightless is affecting your ability to scumhunt and who do you feel the least sure on at the moment (As in can't decide if they are town or scum)?

[SerialClergyman]

Has anybody gotten back to me with why they think 'buddying' with someone you view to be town is problematic? I'm still awaiting any form of answer..

[TheButtonmen]

@ Serial

the fact that you put the effort into removing the name from quotes both perplexes and annoys me.

[SerialClergyman]

Button, your PR list answer makes a lot of sense coming from your position. It's also why I was never really in favour of you being imprinted, because I don't see much joy coming out of those choices (zero joy out of vig! ><) but I can see how you'd come to those conclusions from your position.

[CrashTextDummie]

By the way, SerialClergyman, feel free to make a proper case against me. And not just vote-count analysis please. You don't exactly have a sparkling voting record either (you were on all major wagons as well, or in the case of your own wagon, you approved of it), so that would be... how did you put it? Utterly hypocritical.

[SerialClergyman]

Button, I rely on memory to play this game so I naturally assume everyone else just remembers the quote I make. I don't remove the name, I type out the quote tags, then copy paste the bit I need. The reason I don't type the name is it makes typing the quote tags more tricky.

If you ever need to work out who said it, but the above is pretty obvious from context.

[TheButtonmen]

Has anybody gotten back to me with why they think 'buddying' with someone you view to be town is problematic? I'm still awaiting any form of answer..

Short Form: It's scummy.

Slightly Longer Form: There's no advantage to doing it as town, while there is an advantage to doing it as scum.

Long Form: We aren't here to teach you to play mafia, if your so curious at to why people dislike blatant buddying D1 I'd direct you to MD Forum or the Wiki.

[CrashTextDummie]

[...]but I felt Starbuck's was much less likely to come from scum [...]

Freudian slip alert.

Happy new year, by the way.

[CrashTextDummie]

Doesn't make sense. She ties Starbuck to lewarcher MORE STORNGLY than she ties SB to DN. If that's the case, lew should be scum or SB should be scum. If VMD is scum with DN, then she should be letting me tie SB with DN, not interjecting and saying the tie with lew (town in this scenario) is more important.

As you may have figured out, I am entertaining the idea that DN, VMD and Lew are all scum together. And you are currently proposing the idea that Lew is scum as well. So why then do you make an argument that's based on a scenario where he is town?

[SerialClergyman]

CTD - that is a proper case. I don't do 'scumtells', I think they're too easy to avoid as scum and rarely provide good results. I hunt by looking for patterns and behaviour from an informed minority. Hence my distaste at the daytalking.

It's not that you (your slot) was on the wagons, it's that you were on them in a suspicious manner.

This is a list of his suspicions and votes. Notice the constant suspicion of me yet continual voting of my suspects with my reasoning.

For the record, would you go over exactly how you think elvis and my scheme went down if we were scum? Why didn't elvis choose a scum mate who hadn't imprinted her in his first post of the day? When was the plan hatched? Why didn't I imprint more than just one of my scumbuddies? Why didn't I answer her question the first time?

This line of questioning doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than to make starbuck appear scummy through no fault of her own.

unvote, vote serialclergyman

for the ridiculous way he's overreacted towards
starbuck and the above scummy line of questioning.

@Starbuck: Do you really get a town read on lewarcher from his one post?

OBV you should go by your own reads too, but if SC died and was town, that wouldn't influence you at all?

Of course it would, but not to the extent that I would ever agree to lynch his two top suspects and imprint who he thinks is town just because he was confirmed, which is the way I interpreted those plans.

Ok, new course of action. Let's get a lynch going. Who is up for a good old fashioned dn lynch? No one killing anyone necessarily the next day. Any takers?

See, that's a much better plan. I'm down.

unvote, vote: DeathNote

for the reasons stated in these posts, and the "Just policy lynch me and get it over with " thing.

Does this make sense?

The first paragraph is re: lynching deathnote if you're town, correct? If so, yes, that makes a lot of sense. And the second would make sense from town-ek's perspective as well, but again I feel strongly that her perspective is heavily flawed.

Really? Because continuing the conversation we're all in the middle of would be nice.

That was @SC

vote: SerialClergyman

I'm down for a Starbuck lynch. I believe I said that I would find her defense of DN scummy if he flipped scum, and I stand by that. I'm going to allow her the opportunity to post before hammering since she hasn't gotten a chance to respond to anything yet.

unvote, vote: Starbuck

Her "I don't see where I defended him" defense isn't very persuasive.

Because I didn't defend him. I was attacking SC and Elvis, but apparently you are too easily blinded by them to think for yourself.

Heh, maybe.

I've wanted SC lynched since day 1

, but his posts following DN's flip felt sincere to me at the time and that was enough to temporarily
"blind" me, I guess. I don't plan on making that mistake again.

She did quite a few things to defend him that no one else did, such as referring to ek's original DN vote as opportunistic, calling SC's reaction overaggressive or stating "I could see where deathnote was coming from".(The former two being chainsaw defense as opposed to simply defending him)

Do you still think only scum defend or is it possible for them to buss and ignore?

When did I say scum could only defend? Of course it's possible for them to buss and ignore.

Do you think SC pushing more on star over DN for most of the day 1 is scummy in retrospect?

Yes, I think it is. Not only did he push SB more than DN on D1, he even said that his case on DN would disappear is SB was town. Which reminds me, can we lynch SC now?

vote: SC

I actually think it's quite spurious you'd even suggest that me being on the wagons or even 'approving of my lynch' D2 is in any way the same. I clearly did a LOT of the leg work for those wagons, and I was following my gut. Messaiah did bugger all leg work, bugger all scum hunting and followed the reasoning of someone who he voted in D1, D2 and D3. The first quote is where he votes me for my theory about Starbuck D1, the quotes on D2 are where he hammers Starbuck

for that same reasoning

So yes, him and Reck are almost identical in their voting actions as well as in their reasoning for their voting actions. They both have been suspicious of me all game and yet both used my reasoning to lynch Starbuck, even after both voting me at the start of D2. They also both move their votes and roughly the same time, they take up rtoughly the same spot on the wagon, which means they feel compelled to have this change of heart and roughly the same time (like when the D2 SC wagon runs out of steam?)

Like with much of this game, this will probably be more interesting when you guys know I'm town, which is why I'm a little philosophical about things. But it's not easy to dismiss I think.