Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[SerialClergyman]

Oh Buttonman.. your threat didn't stop me from hamering DN, it didn't stop me from pushing Starbuck, what makes you think that your threat of leaving your vote on me (where it has resided almost all game) would make me explain that?

It'll come in due time.

[CrashTextDummie]

Now look what you've done, I can't sleep. So you get more answers.

The very fact that people feel they are able to 'call WIFOM' makes me want to tear out my eyeballs. And I

like

my eyeballs.

If you are saying something is scummy, you also have a responsibility to explain

why

it's scummy. Calling me scummy for trying to push a lynch on Starbuck makes no sense. If I were scum, it cost me a buddy and put me in a position where I signed my name blatantly to a townie lynch.

I cannot read minds. I therefore do not know why you would have played like you did as scum. But I can name you a hundred reasons and more for why you could have done it. Here, I'll give you a sample:
1. You felt you could get away with it
2. You felt it would be advantageous to your remaining buddies
3. You wanted to appear consistent after you failed to lynch Starbuck over Deathnote
4. You felt like taking a risk
5. You thought being a forceful presence would make you look pro-town
6. You thought one of your buddies was under threat of being scrutinized
7. You thought it would spread confusion
8. That's just how you roll

That enough to give you an idea?

The simple fact remains that it was a bullshit wagon and you pushed it the hardest. What you're basically saying is that scum wouldn't push hard to get a townie lynched and that scum wouldn't act as a forceful presence in a game. I'm saying yes, they would. And every single person on earth who has ever played mafia knows I'm right. This has so far been a nightless game. I'd

expect

scum to push hard for a townie lynch. And hell yes, it makes sense to call you scummy for pushing a lynch on Starbuck. It was a bad wagon and I've explained why I think so. Pushing bad wagons is scummy.

I never lied about my opinion. When thinking Starbuck was scum, I was quite prepared to just lynch after lynch. Her town flip threw out my reads and as I said to elvis before the start of D3, if she flipped town I would prefer to no lynch and imprint. No lies, quite logical.

That doesn't change the fact that it was a lie. You're confirming right here that you wanted to just lynch after lynch. You later stated that you were always in favour of turning to imprints. The two directly contradict each other. That makes the latter statement a lie.

And before you ask me what you would gain from lying about such a trivial and easy to check matter, the answer is nothing. It's not an attempt at deceit, it's an internal inconsistency. You weren't aware of your previous stance because the opinions you've shared on imprinting in thread do not match with your true intentions. Because you're scum.

Besides, when you declared that you were in favor of just lynching 5 times in a row, it had

nothing

to do with your supposed belief that Starbuck was scum. Your stated reasoning was that you were confident in having read 4 people as town. If a single mislynch would make you doubt yourself to the point where you suddenly weren't confident enough anymore, I don't see any reason at all why you would have suggested that course of action in the first place. None.

Your point about DeathNote makes some kind of sense but you aren't looking at my mindset. I was almost sure that Starbuck was scum. Her lynch was the immediate obvious choice. There was no reason to imprint because we didn't need any information.

I have tried to look at your mindset. If you had read my analyses carefully, you would have realized it's a big part of how I scumhunt. I have drawn my conclusions.

Your top suspect was dead (actually, your only real suspect). You hadn't established any suspicion on any living players. You took the easy way out.

This is a bad, bad argument.

I agree, it was late. What I should have said:
The fact that you had

no

suspects after Starbuck turned up town is bad enough. That you didn't make a serious attempt to find new ones is worse.

Again, I cannot read minds, so I'd have to give you another list of reasons why you could have switched to imprinting. One that is immediately obvious is that it's possible a scumbag got into a position where they could get imprinted (contender: Pug). You say "there's no way I'm getting an imprint" like there is only one scum floating around.

By the way, SerialClergyman, got an opinion on VMD?

Making another attempt at sleeping now.

[TheButtonmen]

Oh Buttonman.. your threat didn't stop me from hamering DN, it didn't stop me from pushing Starbuck, what makes you think that your threat of leaving your vote on me (where it has resided almost all game) would make me explain that?

It'll come in due time.

No, see your going to claim it's some secret magical bullshit code in the future that some how when interpreted says whatever you want it to say and somehow clears you and Elvis, you pulled the shit logic / plans before.

I hope so very very much I get Vig powers tonight.

[TheButtonmen]

I'd barely accept that in a game with PR's; in one with none? Hell No.

[CrashTextDummie]

Addendum:

Calling me scummy for trying to push a lynch on Starbuck makes no sense. If I were scum, it cost me a buddy and put me in a position where I signed my name blatantly to a townie lynch.

The point I've been making is that you actually tried to save your buddy with your "lynch Starbuck, if she's town there's no case on Deathnote" spiel. You actually contributed very little to the Deathnote lynch apart from the hammer, which was a foregone conclusion.

[SerialClergyman]

CTD - quick answers to whatever struck me -

a) Your list of motivations is missing the point. You are claiming an action I've taken is scummy. I can definitely show you my motivation for doing it as town - I really, really thought Starbuck was scum and I was prepared to push it as hard as possible. You're now claiming I'm scum, and the reason you give for them otivation is that list, filled with really pretty weak reasons. Unless you can tell me why I would be more likely to push a Starbuck case that hard as scum compared to town, I don't see how it's a scum tell.

In fact - no lists, here's the easiest way to explain it. I am a townie who was convinced that Starbuck was scum with DN. Now find an action that isn't consistent with that world view. I'm sure you won't, because that's what I was. Yes - Starbuck's mislych really, really threw me.

You'll note I also said lynch DN and if he's not scum then there's no case on Starbuck. I also offered to trade my life for his, as I did Starbuck's.

Re-read the start of D2 and tell me that I'm scum urging people to lynch me while betting that they won't. Because you now know that Starbuck is town, so all of the start of D2, if I'd died and scumflipped then Starbuck would be as good as confirmed town. So please, look at that again, quite seriously.

I do have an opinion on VMD but I'm waiting for yoru reck case first. I should have done my little code before you posted, but I didn't know who you'd suspect and why. You're also obviously a good player and your posts have been great, so I am back in doubt. But I'll explain where I'm at and my thinking after you talk about reck, if that's ok.

Buttonman - your level of abject horror at my play continues to amuse. Could you explain for me exactly what dsatardly plan I've cooked up? Also, while we're on the subject, you never answered what was wrong with my obvious buddying with elvis.

[TheButtonmen]

Buttonman - your level of abject horror at my play continues to amuse. Could you explain for me exactly what dsatardly plan I've cooked up?

No, see your going to claim it's some secret magical bullshit code in the future that some how when interpreted says whatever you want it to say and somehow clears you and Elvis, you pulled the shit logic / plans before.

I hope so very very much I get Vig powers tonight.

[SerialClergyman]

Yes, I did read that. What I'm asking is which magical bullshit codes have I pulled before?

You'll also note that elvis moved to clear me, not vice versa.

[TheButtonmen]

Yes, I did read that. What I'm asking is which magical bullshit codes have I pulled before?

You'll also note that elvis moved to clear me, not vice versa.

No, see your going to claim it's some secret magical bullshit code in the future that some how when interpreted says whatever you want it to say and somehow clears you and Elvis,

you pulled the shit logic / plans before.

[SerialClergyman]

OK, if you're going to be irritating:

Also, while we're on the subject, you never answered what was wrong with my obvious buddying with elvis.

[TheButtonmen]

OK, if you're going to be irritating

Conciseness is protown.

[SerialClergyman]

Answer?

[TheButtonmen]

...You want me to explain to you why blatant buddying D1 is bad?

[SerialClergyman]

Yes.

[SerialClergyman]

Yes.

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #27=-

No Lynch (1) - Montana
Colorado (1) - Ohio
Alaska (1) - Hawaii

Not Voting (7) - Alaska, Georgia, Florida, Kansas, Colorado, Iowa, Virginia

6 to lynch.

-=Imprint Count #27=-

Hawaii (6) - Hawaii, Kansas, Ohio, Florida, Montana, Iowa

Florida (4) - Florida, Ohio, Kansas, Georgia
Montana (3) - Alaska, Iowa, Montana
Georgia (2) - Iowa, Georgia
Virginia (2) - Iowa, Georgia
Ohio (1) - Ohio
Iowa (1) - Iowa
Colorado (0)
Alaska (0)
Kansas (0)

6 to imprint.

ALASKA = SerialClergyman
COLORADO = CrashTextDummie
FLORIDA = Limerickx
GEORGIA = Plum
HAWAII = TheButtonmen
IOWA = xRECKONERx
KANSAS = farside22
MONTANA = Pug89
OHIO = Knight of Cydonia
VIRGINIA = elvis_knits

Mod: If 2 mafia get imprinted do they both get a NK or does only one get to perform a NK?

Sorry I kept forgetting that I hadn't answered this one:

Any player who has been imprnted with a night action may perform that action, regardless of alignment. So, theoretically, if two rogue actives could both receive an imprint that granted them a night killing ability, both could perform a kill. Note that I am not necessarily saying that it is possible for them to receive these imprints.

[farside22]

Mod: If 2 mafia get imprinted do they both get a NK or does only one get to perform a NK?

Sorry I kept forgetting that I hadn't answered this one:

Any player who has been imprnted with a night action may perform that action, regardless of alignment. So, theoretically, if two rogue actives could both receive an imprint that granted them a night killing ability, both could perform a kill. Note that I am not necessarily saying that it is possible for them to receive these imprints.

Thank you!
This makes me want to just keep it at one imprint now and

FOS; SC

for his suggestion to imprint him and EK day 1 if DN flips scum

[elvis_knits]

I'm not sure how much I can post today since more people came to my house last night. I want to post a little in response to CTD about SC though, because I think it's important to the conversation.

I went through like the first part of the post, and will do more wehn I get a chance.

1) RE: SC's 115 - SC advocates not imprinting while voting to imprint himself and me.
-> not sure how big a conflict this is since we weren't in danger of being imprinted, and as such he seemed to be discussing things and not sure exactly which way he wanted to go

2) RE: SC's 146 - SC embraces idea to imprint us
-> Wouldn't you, if you saw a towntell?

3) RE: Idea that SC argued against us being scum together as a way to tie himself to me (etc... paraphrasing not exact here)
->I see this idea as plausable. This is a way that scum do act, and I see why you might think this. However, it's not the only explanation. One of the things that probably caused SC to act like this is that people were calling us both scum. So SC argued that we aren't. It seems like a natural progression to me.

Overall, you could be right, but it's not the only explanation.

4) RE: SC wanted to lynch Starbuck first
->This is your strongest point, IMO. This is something that has given me pause on SC, but I have largely dismissed it based on all the other things that make me think SC is town. On its own though, I agree with you, CTD, that SC wanting to lynch Starbuck before DN was atleast an error, if not scummy. In my mind, Starbuck was only possible scum IF DN flipped scum. Which he did, which made lynching Starbuck a good idea. I would not have wanted to lynch Starbuck first. And yes it would be an effective strategy to clear a scum DN, to lynch SB first.

I guess the way that I rationalize this in my own head, as far as still seeing SC as town, is that I have seen town people make arguments like this before. There's a game that is ALMOST ALMOST over, and I'm dead in. I'll link you to it as soon as it ends.

So... more coming later.

I think that SC wanting to lynch SB before DN is a potential problem, and CTD's best point. However, I still think SC is town. I will go into more later, and respond to other points.

CTD, not sure if you wrote about this somewhere else, but what do you make of SC asking to be lynched after hammering DN? And 3-4 jumping on that and voting him ASAP? Was that a scum gambit? What was the thinking there, do you think?

[farside22]

Warning: Long post is coming:

lewarcher82/ xRECKONERx: I decided to read up on this a bit more myself. Reck has been giving me scum vibes today and now it really adds up even more.

lew finds nothing to add on pages 1-5 with the set up discussion and who said what. Has no opinion on the setup in general. Pro on this was his town read on SB.
I don't see this being a fact at all:

This is the first game I play with Vala, so I do not know her. I just do not trust players who try to take the lead on day one, and my impression is that this is what she is doing. Also I do not find scum / town lists useful. I find them confusing.

Point in order EK and SC were the main leaders on the day. This just feels weak resoning.

Lew does point out something we had been saying today about SC:

Anyway, I get scumvibes from SC, I find his posts too aggressive towards Starbuck, and I think that his attempt to remind everyone of DN's scumminess without even trying to interact directly with DN is also pretty scummy.

Now Reck on the another hand is a contradiction all onto his own. First he has his SB leaning town comments

Reck: In fact, by the end of page eight, I'd be willing to upgrade Starbuck to leaning-town. I also highlighten in bold one issue that you will see the biggest contradiction for day 1 to day 2.

...
[mrow]Scum[col]IGMEOY[col]Neutral[col]Town DeathNote[col]TheButtonmen[col]farside22[col]Reckoner SerialClergyman[col]elvis_knits[col]Limerickx[col]Messiah @

SC: Because I don't necessarily think Starbuck's passive defense of DeathNote means she's saying he's town

. She's saying she doesn't have a full read on him, and I can understand that to an extent. ---[col]---[col]Starbuck[col]Vala Mal Doran ---[col]---[col]Pug89[col]Plum

The same goes for DN/Starbuck.

I don't like to/don't think it's very proper to make scum connections on D1. Sure, it's interesting with four scum in this game, but the fact still remains that a four person scumteam can coordinate QUITE WELL against an eight person town, and there's no way to really start drawing conclusions until we get a role-flip.

Wait a minute what happened to what was just said from the one above and this comment:

I feel like we need to get people imprinted THEN decide on a lynch.

My vote will either go to Starbuck or SC. It's currently 8:3. If we lynch wrong, it'll be 7:3, and that'll put us into lylo tomorrow if scum gets a killing imprint.

@SC: Why did you wait until the end of the wagon to hammer DN?

Vote: SerialClergyman

His ploy was that if he was town, then so was elvis... and if DeathNote was scum, so was Starbuck. IMO, it was a bus. He knew DeathNote would flip scum, therefore incriminating Starbuck and seemingly clearing both himself and elvis.

Interesting point however:

Vote: Starbuck

On second thought, lynching Starbuck is a better plan.

Passively defending someone who flips scum is a no-no

.

Awesome turn about in 1 day with no reason.
aka I'm jumping on a BW and contradicting myself today.

vote: Reckoner

[elvis_knits]

Sorry I'm doing this response to CTD in pieces, but I don't have time for all at once so I'm just trying to do what I can when I have a free moment.

Anyway...

And here we are, the big one. I have to quote it because it's so juicy:

I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis.

How does Elvis feel about this now that we know the alignment of DN and Starbuck? Not only is this a ludicrous attempt at a power-grab (his scheme involves him getting imprinted twice!), it also conveniently sets up the lynch of a pro-town player. Of course, this is in hind-sight, but considering he

wasn't actually suspcious of DN on his own

, I really cannot comprehend at all how a town-SC could have thought this was a good idea.

This is my POV:

I notice a town-tell on me and SC (you may disagree, but I think it's pretty good, and definitely at the time seemed awesome). In a way, I feel like I'm breaking the game. If we can imprint two townies, risk-free, we have a huge edge.

But the response to my idea was not good. It ended up alienating everyone, and forcing an elvis-SC sort of informal alliance in the game, where we knew each other were innnocent, but everyone else was suspicious of us.

From that point on, I would say that some of SC's moves have been unorthodox attempts to convince the town that we really are innocent, or "make a deal." So a lot of the things that you see as insane power grabs, have looked more to me like SC was trying, any way he could, to get two town players into a position to break the game.

If you KNEW that you and somebody else in the game were town, and that if you got some power in the game, scum would be dead in the water, wouldn't you try everything you could think of to get the power and win the game?

I fully realize that many of you think my founding premise is flawed, about "scum would know they didn't have a NK." But I still think it's pretty good. Like I said in the beginning, it's not 100%, but I do think that THE GREAT MAJORITY of the time, scum know what their powers are and what they aren't. I realize that nobody seems to agree. No need to beat me over the head again, but it's what I think.

---

The other major component of this is SC wanting to lynch Starbuck first. I agree that is a problem. But, like I said last post, I have seen a situation very similar to this, with players who had supposedly tied allignments, and several people were arguing to lynch somebody whose allignment largely depended on the other's flip. IMO, one had ot be lynched before the other. Several people argued against me, half were town.

I guess the thing is that I agree that it is a tell, but that doesn't mean that it's 100%. You have to look farther than this.

Or perhaps I am just snowed by my own faulty logic about scum knowing they didn't have a NK?

I really still think SC is town. I can see where SC is coming from. I think he's making good arguments and I can see where he is coming from. I really don't think his attack on SC is scummy. But I think he is wrong. Part of that may have to do with being outside of the wacky SC-elvis zone where nobody believes us.

Anyway, next chance I get, I think I'd like to do a little post why I think SC is town, just so y'all can read it. You may not agree with it, but I think it would be good at least to read it, and you can comment on it, try to convince me I'm wrong.

[elvis_knits]

lol

Went overboard with the SC love...

Should be more like this:

I really still think SC is town. I can see where CTD is coming from. I think he's making good arguments and I can see where he is coming from. I really don't think his attack on SC is scummy. But I think he (CTD) is wrong. Part of that may have to do with being outside of the wacky SC-elvis zone where nobody believes us.

[xRECKONERx]

There's... not really anything I can respond to in farside's case, I'm afraid.

[farside22]

There's... not really anything I can respond to in farside's case, I'm afraid.

Yup it's hard to disprove that you didn't flip back and forth from calling SB town.
Then say this:

xRECKONERx wrote:
@SC: Why did you wait until the end of the wagon to hammer DN?

Vote: SerialClergyman

His ploy was that if he was town, then so was elvis... and if DeathNote was scum, so was Starbuck. IMO, it was a bus. He knew DeathNote would flip scum, therefore incriminating Starbuck and seemingly clearing both himself and elvis.

To backtrack and vote SB the following post.

^ can we please now vote on the scum

[xRECKONERx]

Yeah, I couldn't decide if Starbuck was town or not. Then, when I looked at things in light of the flip, I was like, "Whoa. The passive defending thing looks a lot scummier now." I don't see what's wrong with that.

[farside22]

Yeah, I couldn't decide if Starbuck was town or not. Then, when I looked at things in light of the flip, I was like, "Whoa. The passive defending thing looks a lot scummier now." I don't see what's wrong with that.

First you say it's based on DN flip. Then it's I don't know who to lynch between SC and SB.
Then you out and out say you think it's a scheme by SC but once the SB wagon goes you conviently go back with little to nothing said.

It's called wagoning for little to no reason.