Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[SerialClergyman]

Reck, could you go into that a but more? In what way is farside digging herself into a hole?

[Plum]

Back at it tonight .

The big anti-happy party that goes on for about a page is devoid of most things I find game useful except a good point by Lim that hammer before imprint is not necessarily optimal even if it worked out mostly beneficial the first time. And when EK tells Starbuck to post on who she thinks is scum after the hammer instead of continue to engage in the hate parade when Starbuck did post one is noteable. Bit odd, but not hugely; but emotions getting in the way of gameplaying is bad all around and this is grand proof.

Now I want to reread Messiah in context to see how likely it was that his play around DN was a bus or not. Hmm, early attack on DN is a good sign, but the switchover to voting SC Day 1 and then jump back on the wagon when DN is under a lot more pressure and crumbling makes it a whole less of a sure good sign. Farside makes a similar case to the one I made on Messiah in my last post; I like. Note to self, need to read Farside in iso or something to get a better feel for her.

I'm prompted to reskim Buttonmen in iso. Okay, something weird: He votes SC for not answering his questions then EBWOP downgrades that to a FOS because he missed the post where SC did that. So far so good. Then SC asks him to explain why he thinks SC deserves a FOS and Button explains that he sees SC making strong accusations against comparatively mild behavior from Starbuck when SC has been more egregious in the area in question, SC explains the difference in behavior and why Starbuck's play is, to him, egregious. But Button never responds with something like "okay I see your point" or "no, I really think that you're trying to give it scummy spin because X", he just drops it without giving response in turn where it's appropriate and basically necessary to move on from the situation; I don't even know who his top suspect(s) at that time would be except I guess SC. And that was the only vote he'd made in the game. When DN starts to appear scummy and such there's more DN-neutral stuff and then when SC suggests his deal Buttonmen votes SC again. He does a lot against the DN lynch. My conclusion is not conclusive yet - I'd like to digest stuff a bit - but I'm definitely not giving Button an imprint any time soon, game-breaking discussion or no.

As an aside, I'm curious if scum can get imprints that are NOT NK related. I might be missing this, but in the same sense that people for some reason think that all townie imprints are cop-related, why do we assume that all scum ones are NK related? Both are leaps of faith that I don't think are warranted. Can someone point to me if this has been talked about? There is every chance that I've missed it.

I've said this multiple times. Scum may or may not get NK-related binuses when imprinted; we don't know. What we do know is that what they get can and will be used to harm the Town. I don't want to bet that we'll be able to pressure scum into not using their imprint powers against us because they'll get caught; it's more than likely that the Mod thought of this and accounted for it.

Okay, Elvis, I see your logic for imprinting and no-Lynching vs. imprinting with a lynch; I basically see no downside to looking at today like a chance to just do Day 2 imprinting after the flip although I still stand for people respecting getting the conversation about whether/how many/&c. to imprint before anything gets hammered. Day 1 was messy but had a good outcome; Day 2 was what we made of it: too short, cut off too soon to make the most of what we were doing. I'd rather not have to deal with that sort of mess again.

@Everyone - Do you think that plum posting in her other games but not here is a null or scum tell?

I'll tell you right here that I had joined other games which were also suffering from my lack of time; some of them had no posts from me whatsoever, had exploded in post numbers, and demanded a lot of effort to get remotely caught up. At that point, since my V/LA I had made one post on the site, which, if you were interested, was a long and labor-intensive one. My lack of activity was the result of a few related factors, but none of those factors was connected to my alignment in this game at all. Though it's nice to see Messiah respond to your question with a platitude and not even comment on how he himself saw the circumstances.

Unvote

in anticipation of a No-Lynch. If I were trying to lynch my vote would stay on Messiah at this point.

I agree with Lim's points against SC's points about him not voting Starbuck Day 2; I had similar feelings about Starbuck's defense-or-not of DN and said so, too. Regardless, the point is pretty shabby to have made at all considering that Lim didn't get a chance to vote Day 2 at all anyway. Though skimming Lim in iso

is

giving me major Town vibes on him. I'd consider giving him an imprint, need moar reading to see for myself whether that second-to-last vote looked scummish like many are saying or not.

And I have like no concrete recollections of what Pug and Reck have done in this game (except that Pug was early on DN, a plus) which is very frustrating and weird. Is something slipping under my radar? SC's summary of Reck is disheartening, and he points out the Reck's Starbuck vote is just about as eyebrow-raising switch-up scummy as Messiah's appears to be.

As for no lynch I think if we were going to imprint it should have happened yesterday.

The beauty of EK's way of looking at it is that if we no-Lynch we are effectively imprinting yesterday.

I don't even get what Farside is saying EK misrepped for posrt one, though I see legitimate objections to EK in her second part, though not one I take huge issue with (because I think the gist of EK's point still basically stand even if some of her particulars aren't sturdy. This gives me a little pause about EK, but not much).

Considering where we are right now: SC is not my top suspect, though he's certainly been looking more shady than previously. I'd probably rather go with Imprints + no-Lynch today. I don't really want Button imprinted, could deal with Pug getting imprinted (not my top top choice but he's clearly on the Town side of neutral to me).

Excuse me but this is the same person who wants to imprint now and didn't seem to want to do it after DN's lynch so I'm going to ask question about his lets lynch and not imprint vs lets no lynch and imprint flip flop.
We do not know what the imprints are. Everyone seems to be hoping for a cop. Damn even I hope for a cop but there is other roles out there to wonder about and what if they don't help? Then what? I also asked when and how many lynches and frankly he was willing to lynch himself and not have an imprint day 2 and now day 3 he wants and imprint is shifty as all hell.

The thing is I see his way of thinking: You can lynch and then imprint-No-lynch based on flip info + thread info or you can lynch again. If you're pretty close to sure that someone is scum you lynch; if not you look into imprints. SC looks to have thought he had very probable scum in Starbuck, so his approach fits with his actions in this instance. You wanted to imprint two players for info purposes; SC pointed out some serious risks to that plan and explains a decent reason why those risks are not worth the info in a situation where he thinks he has scum in the net. You say he wants to keep the Town uninformed.

I've been saying the whole game that we don't know what the imprints are and that it's quite possible it won't be a cop action. I don't know exactly what you're trying to get at.

EK's case against Farside now looks damn good on the surface and first look-through does show Farside not saying much about DN except attacking SC and EK about whether their alignments will be clarified at all by a DN flip. At one point she says "I need to read back on DN" though I can't see that she ever does. I may need more cross-referencing but EK's case looks damn sweet.

We need to decide what we're doing with today.

[xRECKONERx]

I think we've decided.

@EVERYONE: Please say "Yay" or "Nay" to the idea of imprinting + no lynch. Also, state how many imprints you want.

[SerialClergyman]

Reck -

Reck, could you go into that a but more? In what way is farside digging herself into a hole?

Yea to imprint + nolynch. <3 would be my preferred imprint state.

[Limerickx]

Unvote Serial Clergyman

I'll leave my imprint votes on Buttonmen and Myself.

2 imprints please and thank you.

[SerialClergyman]

lol - I obviously meant less than three imprints abnove, rather than heart.

Damn you, EMOTICONS!!!

[SerialClergyman]

Limerick, was that becuase you're unsure about your vote or simply because you agree with the no lynch/imprint plan?

[Limerickx]

Unlike you, I don't pretend to be SURE about my votes, my vote was on you because I felt you were most likely to be mafia.

Snarkyness aside, I switched my vote because I'm willing to go along with the no lynch/imprint plan. In fact, I was in favor of that plan numerous times thoughout the game (my 'extension of a day' idea)

Sidenote: 'Heart' is my preferred imprint state too :-p

[SerialClergyman]

Unrequired snarkiness too :/

I think the 'being sure' thing is such a red herring. *sigh*.

Maybe I should explain it by saying I'm

sure

that the person I'm voting is most likely to be scum in my mind and I'm

sure

that going after the person most likely to be scum is the right way to play, so I'm

sure

about pushing the lynch.

That red herring aside, are you still thinking I'm most likely to be mafia?

[Limerickx]

I'm fairly sure you know what I meant and I am far from the only one guilty of snark this game.

Yes, at this point, I am still most suspicious of you. I removed my vote on you in a show of support for the 'imprint/no lynch' plan.

[xRECKONERx]

Farside, at first, didn't come off that scummy to me... but it seems the more she tries to defend herself, the more she digs her own grave. It's like I didn't see anything at first, but ek's attacks on her are actually showing her in a different light. It's nothing drastic, not yet at least, but she seems to be failing to defend herself properly.

Also, in case it wasn't known, I'm a yes, and I'd prefer to imprint 2-3 people.

[SerialClergyman]

Limerick, do you agree? What do you think about farside and ek?

[farside22]

Hey farside, your examples are not what you represent them to be.

Also I would like to point something out that SC is using the terms least likely when I talk about scum bussing.
However just on this page with games done and over I have 3 cases in slight scum bussing day 1 and yest on page 1

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11#1864811



http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12460

Both of these games are scum random voting each other on D1. That's not a bus. It doesn't count.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12404

locke first vote is on jebus (her scum partner and kono (lynched day 1 votes on Jebus)

This vote was on page 9. This doesn't count either as a page 1 buss, or a early D1 buss.

The first game cycber used that to move on and say look who was first to vote here.
The second game if you read the rules they could not do and RVS and had to do a real vote based on real reason.
Nice of you to actual read the mechanics of the game.

@reck: Explain how?

[Limerickx]

Off the top of my head (posting from my phone at the moment) I was less suspicious of EK on day one then I am now, and more suspicious of Farside early than now. Im leaning town to Farside and neutral on EK. Id rather that neither get an imprint, if i had my choice.

[farside22]

Farside, at first, didn't come off that scummy to me... but it seems the more she tries to defend herself, the more she digs her own grave. It's like I didn't see anything at first, but ek's attacks on her are actually showing her in a different light. It's nothing drastic, not yet at least, but she seems to be failing to defend herself properly.

Also, in case it wasn't known, I'm a yes, and I'd prefer to imprint 2-3 people.

How is this. I answered and showed reasoning on all of my post and how she misrepresented my intentions and making a mockery of starbucks read.
I showed
1. wasn't expecting a hammer
2. was a lie
3. DN was EK's #1 suspect but SC had starbuck as his number 1. She fails to concede this point at all
4. she was misrepresenting me based on her comment and I showed proof of what I actually said.
So please explain better how you feel my defense has holes when you see day 1 and the discussion going on about imprints till SC hammers and ends it all.

unvote:

I think my point is being missed about imprinting yesterday. No one seems to see that it should have happened yesterday and I don't see a reason it should not have. Since it did not and we have no information gained thanks to some happy hammers for today then a no lynch would be best.

We should also have a consensus with reasoning on who we should imprint and why.

I'm still going with thebuttonman on this as game breaking in townie favor is hard to ignore.
2nd person: Pug hasn't done anything I find to be scummy. He has been thoughtful in his comments and his reasoning.

[farside22]

[quote="plum]I don't even know who his top suspect(s) at that time would be except I guess SC[/quote]

buttonman has been pretty clear on his thoughts of scum.[/quote]

Also I'm fairly certain either SC or EK is scum, I'm leaning towards SC Thoughts?

So I'm fairly certain one or two of the following three are scum; EK, SC and Messiah. Thoughts?

Also I'm wondering is Plum fell down a hole or is just active lurking like a champ.

Now for clerical work

Imprint: TheButtonmen

[elvis_knits]

When she replaced in, D1 and DN was on the block:
farside wrote:
I think have 2 people imprinted or 3 imprinted with a no lynch is best too.

It's interesting that this was her first take on the game, on a day that would have saved scum from a lynch. What changed to make her think we should be lynching and imprinting on the same day?

read my words more carefully because it was 2 imprinted with a lynch or 3 imprinted with a no lynch that was discussed.
Which I was more clear here:

Yeah I'm leaning on lynch today and imprinting 2 players for information purposes right now.

Farside, if that's what you meant, that's not what you wrote.

And I don't understand the reasoning for you to suggest "imprint 2 people and lynch or imprint 3 people and nolynch." What are the benefits of that plan?

And yes I agrue with you and SC becuase I find you scum EK. I already stated my reason's and again you seem to ignored that day 2 if I wanted to lynch SC it would have been incredibly easy to do so with him asking people to vote for him.

I'm not ignoring this. I just don't care. It has nothing to do with anything.

Honestly I wanted to know about imprints before a hammer on DN and I still think even reading SC's comment that not imprinting with a lynch makes no sense.
We could have had a cop day 1 with an imprint and someone could have checked SB. No one thinks about this and that is what I do not get.

Is this your excuse for never commenting on DN who was obviously going to be lynched?

Yes, the hammer was a bit unexpected at that time. But DN lynch was not unexpected at all. You said twice you would look at DN and comment and never did.

Going over EK's points
1. As for this one there was lots to still talk about. You and SC are the most vocal and I was not expecting a hammer without everyone talking aobut how they felt on imprints.
Oh look who takes that out of everyone's hand SC!

Again, DN lynch was not a surprise. Might have been a little early, but you still promised to read up on DN (twice) and give comments and didn't get around to it. You couldn't even give a general statement on him without rereading?

2. is false

Debatable. If it's false, then you wrote completely the wrong thing. If you can explain why you were suggesting "2 imprints with a lynch or three imprints with a no-lynch" and how it benefits town, then I might let this point drop.

3. you're number 1 suspect was DN for most of the day SC Number 1 was starbuck. I notice you seem to not notice this

THIS DOES NOT ANSWER MY POINT!

Try again:

3)Spends all her time attacking me and SC, then changes her vote to our number one suspect, Starbuck, with almost no explanation.

TELL ME WHY YOU WOULD CHANGE YOUR VOTE TO THE PERSON ME AND SC SUSPECT WHEN YOU THINK I AM SCUM AND HE IS MY STOOGE.

4. You did misrep. How is that scummy to call you out for misrep?

AGAIN, NOT ADDRESSING THE PROBLEM HERE, FARSIDE.

IF YOU THINK I AM SCUM AND SC IS MY STOOGE, WHY HAVE YOU CHANGED YOUR VOTE TO SC?

[elvis_knits]

So, I am down for the no-lynch and imprint 2 people plan. But I'm still voting farside for the moment because I figure why not use my time wisely.

I guess buttonmen should get the imprint. He's probably most likely to be town although I don't care for the way he thinks (and thus don't love him being a town leader, even if he is town). But I guess it's better to have someone you're pretty sure is town even if they rub you the wrong way.

I'm not sure who I want as the second at this point. Pug is the closest to imprint I think. Pug hasn't done too much I can find fault in, and he was not part of the incest voting from D1 which is a point in his favor. My only reservation is he hasn't been as involved in the game, not posting as much, not really originating cases or scum hunting that much.

(I mean, I would obviously trust myself or SC to get imprints but I know that's not happening.)

[farside22]

And I don't understand the reasoning for you to suggest "imprint 2 people and lynch or imprint 3 people and nolynch." What are the benefits of that plan?

This was the start of the game for me. Part of it was well if we imprint 3 people it's a higher chance one of the 3 could be scum and if we lynch incorrectly we could be giving the scum a NK ability.
2 players feels safer as then if 1 of them had NK we can narrow it down further and questioned them without as much confusion.

Okay imagine for a moment:

2 imprints and a mafia lynch (I'm going with this since this is what occured)
the 2 imprints will have some role that either cop, detective, RB, lie dector, ect. Hopefully with the 2 someone gets something that gives info and checks out 1 player to help the town clear someone else.

3 players and a no lynch
This to me with 8 town and 4 scum seems more likely to have a scum imprint. scum can try get a town an imprint but with 3 I can see them trying to get one of their own an imprint and there is a higher probablity of that happening since scum is informed of who is what alignment unlike the town.
This point we again hope to have leading roles but there is always a possiblity of a deceptor at this point.
With a lynch had it been town we could have had a lot more WIFOM with all the possiblities and mislynching up the wozoo (again I'm thinking of all the things that could be without information on what imprints we will get but the possible imprints that can hinder the town)
I'm also thinking that the mod is going to give the scum a NK ability if they ever do get imprinted but I still haven't received an answer if 2 scum get imprinted if they both gain a NK ability.
I still think 3 imprints is too much especially now that we are down 1 townie with 3 scum.

Is this your excuse for never commenting on DN who was obviously going to be lynched?

No it's my excuse for thinking I had more time to look into things. As you know answering a question is easy. Going back and reading things take time.

3)Spends all her time attacking me and SC, then changes her vote to our number one suspect, Starbuck, with almost no explanation.

I attack you, not SC most of the time I questioned SC. I explain why I went back but I'm starting to think you just want to ignore my explaination on why I went back to look at SB and the case and her defending DN

IF YOU THINK I AM SCUM AND SC IS MY STOOGE, WHY HAVE YOU CHANGED YOUR VOTE TO SC?

First of all you made the statement I was not saying you were both scum and this was stated before I voted SC. Second I explained why I voted SC this time as it looks like he was trying to get SB lynched day 1 over DN from the start which would have been a mislynch and stated the following:

SerialClergyman wrote:
Seriously good posting. Despite calling my ideas crazy. Or perhaps because of that . Crazy but true is my speciality.

To be honest, my case against DN dies if Starbuck is scum and vice versa. My main point about Starbuck is that she's acting bizarrey towards Deathnote. Can't see much reason for scum --> town unless it's a weird way of buddying, so I'm sticking with scum --> scum.

That comment in retrospect of SB's allignment and Dn's allignment and who SC pushed harder on, looks scummy in retrospect. Or are you saying you can't see that?

[xRECKONERx]

I support myself, Pug, Messiah, and Plum.

[farside22]

I support myself, Pug, Messiah, and Plum.

Why?

[xRECKONERx]

Town reads, obviously. Messiah less so than the other three, but I think we could get info from his imprinting.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Prod avoidance. I just haven't had time for this lately, what with working retail and all. >_< Hopefully getting around to this tomorrow.

[SerialClergyman]

I have thoughts but Christmas and another game eatign my time. Either way, it's probably best to not go into them too much till after the imprint.

[Limerickx]

Would these thoughts affect the imprint?