Mini 897 - OpenSource Mafia - Game over!!

[Pomegranate]

Unlike UK, I don't find it scummy when people are meticulous about how they appear. I think that everyone needs some element of it, because without it, I think there would be more mislynches based on votehopping, false connections, and backpedaling.

I've found that when I stopped caring, I got lynched a lot less. I think sometimes people overcompensate and it comes off as scummy.

Sometimes. But does that mean they're scum?

If you're always pro-town then you will probably be percieved well. But what about someone with a playstyle like Tubby: He does it to guage reactions, as he stated:

tubby is an interesting case. That's where meta comes into play.

Yeah, I guess my example wasn't the best. I hope you got the feeble point though.

[UncertainKitten]

/me sighs.

I'll do it tomorrow. I got trapped developing my D&D character and go to bed in 8 minutes .

[UncertainKitten]

Sometimes. But does that mean they're scum?

I think that scum are more likely to care about how they are perceived than town.

[Iecerint]

See, I love how this is. It's a complete misrep of what I said. You act like the late wagon joining itself is the scummy point, whereas it's not. It's the following behavior and the lack of original thought between your switches. Now does it make sense?

UK, I think you actually claimed 2 separate suspicious thing I did -- the first is the subsequent behavior; the second is the bandwagon following itself:

-Worrying too much about appearances (It's not OMGUS if you actually have reasoning, so damn the accusation and go forward. At least if you're townie)
-Bandwagon following (not scummy in and of itself but not very helpful to town)

I, ah, hadn't been noticing the parenthetical on the second point, though. Point taken. But that's why I thought it was appropriate to address it as a separate issue. The first issue is just my playstyle as far as I can tell.

Why did you follow me to SP? Why didn't you vote anyone else? What original reasoning did you have on SP? Or was it just blatant bandwagoning?

Here's the post where I voted SP.

I can get behind an SPwagon. It's certainly better than my current vote, and while I don't want to fully abandon JL, his limited activity would make a JL revote pretty inert. And I trust UK's official information on how to handle the SSK/Vaya situation.

Unvote; Vote: SocioPath.

So the logic was like this:

1. We have a claimed 99% certain guilty on Vaya.
2. UK claims that she has official information that lynching Vaya is not optimal play.
3. UK appears to want to pressure SP.
4. Hey, I'm suspicious of SP, too! He made that crap argument against Vaya! And UK's "official information" claim may further imply that Vaya is likely town!
5. I'll pressure SP, too! After all, UK seems like a nice

man

lady, my vote on SSK is outdated given the information in ILY (and he's claiming daycop, anyway), and JL is out to pasture. No better place for my vote!
6.

Vote

.

[Iecerint]

Pome, it gives me a warm feeling that you don't like the case on me, but you still haven't done much scumhunting these past few posts.

[UncertainKitten]

4. Hey, I'm suspicious of SP, too! He made that crap argument against Vaya! And UK's "official information" claim may further imply that Vaya is likely town!

Sorry, that's a little too far. Vaya isn't "likely town". She just has a significant nonzero probability of being town. Enough so I don't immediately want to follow SSK.

5. I'll pressure SP, too! After all, UK seems like a nice man lady, my vote on SSK is outdated given the information in ILY (and he's claiming daycop, anyway), and JL is out to pasture. No better place for my vote!

No. This is actually what you said. Oh, and this.

More on this later when there isn't a bunch of bullshit related to fucktarded winter storms going on.

[Vaya]

I honestly find Kitten's case against Iec to be pretty weak. Townies do care about how they're perceived, they don't want to act in a way others see as scummy and get lynched any more than scum do, its really not a mindset that's in anyway exclusive to scum. I'd say that how much someone worries about how they look would be more due to the sort of person and player they are, then due to alignment. I could buy that Iec is the sort of guy that would worry about if others thought he was scummy.

I do think that not voting someone you think is scum just because they are voting you is bad play, its not really scummy though.

And of course, half her points against him seem to hinge on my alignment, which hasn't been revealed. It's stupid play to actually try to use this against him at this time.

I got a feeling Iec is town, I'm not supporting his lynch any time soon.

I'm not too sold on Pom being scum either, but I'd be in more support of her lynch than Iec's. And I would like this day to end sometime soon, I hate long days, so I may switch my vote to Pom later if no one else I think is scummier is looking like a possible lynch for today.

Pre-post edit: I can't make a post better than this ATM, because I'm having trouble with the site, and I can't set up a separate window to look at more posts. I'm sorry, hopefully it will clear up very soon.

Please. Even *I* could come up with a better excuse. You're not even trying.

Vote: Pomegranate

This is an awful, scummy reason to jump on the Pom wagon, why isn't this post getting more attention? I'd rather lynch this guy right now than Pom.

Unvote
Vote: Josh Lyman

For the record, I still think SP's earlier votes were really scummy, and none of his more recent posting has really impressed me or came off as particularly townish. I'd still support his lynch over Pom's or Iec's.

[Iecerint]

UK, those posts you've linked are 100% consistent with the 5-point explanation I indicated. The first says that your vote was part of my vote, which is accurate. The second is the vote post that I already reposted, which says the same thing, plus why I disqualified SSK/Vaya/JL. So. I don't know what you were trying to demonstrate by posting those. Did you just think no one would read them?

If you don't have some form of reasonable inference specifically concerning Vaya, I think your "official information" claim is highly suspect. It would have to be of the form "daycops FTL," which you could just share with us AFAIK. (Or I suffer from lack of creativity, which is common.)

[UncertainKitten]

If you don't have some form of reasonable inference specifically concerning Vaya, I think your "official information" claim is highly suspect. It would have to be of the form "daycops FTL," which you could just share with us AFAIK. (Or I suffer from lack of creativity, which is common.)

I refuse to reveal anything I don't have to. At the moment, the information I've given will suffice.

And of course, half her points against him seem to hinge on my alignment, which hasn't been revealed. It's stupid play to actually try to use this against him at this time.

Eh, I've been known to do it I think. I look for connections before flips. It's kinda a failing in a way.

This is an awful, scummy reason to jump on the Pom wagon, why isn't this post getting more attention? I'd rather lynch this guy right now than Pom.

/me facepalms

Because I was tunneling on Iec. Let me actually do that ISO so I can feel good about switching off Iec if it is necessary.

But dear god how did I miss that :S.

UK, those posts you've linked are 100% consistent with the 5-point explanation I indicated. The first says that your vote was part of my vote, which is accurate. The second is the vote post that I already reposted, which says the same thing, plus why I disqualified SSK/Vaya/JL. So. I don't know what you were trying to demonstrate by posting those. Did you just think no one would read them?

Yeah, true, they are consistent. Blame stress for making a bad point. My mom did manage to break her arm this morning and I was dealing with that when I responded. For some reason it made sense then but um...now it doesn't :S...

Honestly, that's basically a point against me that I can't dispute.

I'll try to do that iso now.

[UncertainKitten]

I refuse to reveal anything I don't have to. At the moment, the information I've given will suffice.

I actually misread what you said actually. Rereading it, I assure you that my data will impact both SSK and Vaya.

[UncertainKitten]

Your first few posts are pretty normal RVS stuff. As I registered back then, I didn't think you had a point with Josh but it wasn't scummy for you to point that out.

Honestly, I don't see anything out of line with your earlier play. It's active, reasonably stancey, nothing too crazy.

Actually...SP was rather well telegraphed as well...

The fight with SSK was wasted posting, but whatever.


Your ISO post 61, however, is absolutely terrible

Ok, honestly? Rereading you, I literally have nothing. At best a couple points regarding Vaya, who I see as having a possibility of being town.

I have no idea why I got in that long involved fight with you over really STUPID points. I'm breaking it off

Unvote

Now, as I believe Vaya pointed out, JL has made a really terrible post I would have noticed if I hadn't been too busy locking horns with you

Vote Josh Lyman

I should reread Pom and SP later today.

[Iecerint]

Yeah, sorry about 61. I misread Glock's rhetorical question as an actual request. <_<

I'm not sure between Pome and JL. Neither has really done any scumhunting to speak of, except for Pome's wikitell on me earlier. Her comeback posts have some decent theory discussion, and the defense of me is welcome, but there's no focus on finding scum IMO. That's not to say that JL's done any of it, either.

I think SP's worth a second look, but his attack on Vaya is null if SSK is correct. I'll look at him again after UK lets us know what's going on, I guess.

Unvote

. Same is true if UK's official information ends up being insufficient to motivate ignoring Vaya in the short term.

[AlmasterGM]

Theory discussion usually distracts from actual scumhunting. From which Pom has still done very little. Which is why I still have my vote on her.

I don't think JL's reason for joining the Pom wagon was bad at all. Seems very applicable to me.

SP's posts are definitely mindfucking with me. I'm intrigued by the psychological possibilities, but wary of accepting the reads at face value right now. I'm also concerned that he's only using the tactic defensively - SP, any chance you could put some of that skill on the offense?

I'm going to keep my vote on Pom right now because she's posting but not scumhunthing, whereas it's possible JL is just away because he hasn't posted in awhile. If the status quo continues as is, however, I'll move my vote.

[UncertainKitten]

I don't think JL's reason for joining the Pom wagon was bad at all. Seems very applicable to me.

Context. Look at what he's contributed so far. And the only thing he contributes upon his return from V/LA? That thinly veiled "Thank God they aren't looking at me" vote.

[AlmasterGM]

Why do you think JL is a better lynch than Pom?

[UncertainKitten]

Why do you think JL is a better lynch than Pom?

Bias.

Pure and simple. I'm going to look terrible if Pom flips scum and JL flips town.

But I'm willing to take that bet. They both aren't bad lynches. I just favor JL because I feel he's contributed less and yes, I've been taking the factors surrounding Pom into account.

[Vaya]

I don't think JL's reason for joining the Pom wagon was bad at all. Seems very applicable to me.

No, I'd say it was pretty bad. Pom claimed that she couldn't make a better post at the time do to having issues with the site, which seems understandable enough to me. I don't see any grounds for assuming she is lying or just using it as an excuse not to contribute much, and not that she's simply being honest about.

Also, it seems like he's just piggybacking SSK's reason for adding a pressure vote to Pom with his vote. All in all, that last vote of his just feels to me like scum jumping on a wagon.

[AlmasterGM]

I don't think JL's reason for joining the Pom wagon was bad at all. Seems very applicable to me.

No, I'd say it was pretty bad. Pom claimed that she couldn't make a better post at the time do to having issues with the site, which seems understandable enough to me. I don't see any grounds for assuming she is lying or just using it as an excuse not to contribute much, and not that she's simply being honest about.

Also, it seems like he's just piggybacking SSK's reason for adding a pressure vote to Pom with his vote. All in all, that last vote of his just feels to me like scum jumping on a wagon.

IIRC, the solution to that problem was called Notepad.exe. Or Microsoft Word. Or Google Docs. Or any text editor ever. The excuse was bad, stop defending it. If one of you flips scum I wouldn't be surprised if the other did too. Moreover, it's not like Pom has done more scumhunting now that the problem is fixed - the situation is the same. Now, I'm not saying JL is acting town at all - he's not. However, I am willing to give him a chance (e.g., a day or two) to post again before I switch my vote.

[Vaya]

I never said the problem was completely unsolvable from her standpoint, but I could see her not going the extra mile to get around it. I really don't think that's good reason to think she's scum.

And besides, that solution wouldn't have worked anyway, as you would see if you paid any attention to her posts.

Pom, use word then. You have no excuse not to make a better post than that. In fact, for pressure

unvote vote Pom

I guess I should have been more clear: I had started the post, but later I was having dome problems with MS. I couldn't follow any links, and could not go back to the actual game page, and could only mention what I remembered from reading the thread, and from Topic Review. Making my post on a Word Document wouldn't have helped any.

And though maybe it might not particularly contain much proactive scum hunting, I don't find Pom's last few posts to be too poor. She was at least giving some original thought and commenting on things that were being talked about.

Also, its stupid to think I'm scum with someone just because I find an attack against them to be poor or defend them. I do this as town when I feel someone else is being unjustly attacked or an attacker is scummy.

And if anything, I don't know if, as scum, I would be so bold as to defend a buddy who seems to have most of the town against them. I'd probably bus Pom in this situation if we were scum together. So its really a poor point on your part to try to tie us together like that.

[Iecerint]

Actually...SP was rather well telegraphed as well...

What does this mean?

Pure and simple. I'm going to look terrible if Pom flips scum and JL flips town.

Obvscum.

I agree with Alma about theorytalk potentially distracting from scumhunting in the general case. However, I think it was somewhat helpful in this case, as it appears to have provided some counterexamples that explained my playstyle. (But I'm biased.) That's not to say that I disagree that Pome's scumhunting is absent-to-minimal.

[Pomegranate]

Sometimes. But does that mean they're scum?

I think that scum are more likely to care about how they are perceived than town.

Obviously. But I think that in general, many townies do too, and I don't find a case comprised of that and following bandwagons, which townies also do, very convincing.

[Vaya]

Pom, any thoughts on who you think is scum?

[UncertainKitten]

What does this mean?

You telegraphed the switch to SP FAR better than I remembered.

I have no actual leg to stand on

Obviously. But I think that in general, many townies do too, and I don't find a case comprised of that and following bandwagons, which townies also do, very convincing.

Maybe not. I was way off anyway, so it wasn't going to get anywhere.

Actually...why did it get as far as it did?

[Vaya]

Actually, taking a quick glance at Pom in iso, she's only made one vote so far all game, and that was a random vote. She hasn't made a real stance or backed it up with a vote all game. Same goes for Vala, too.

I change my mind, I'm all for lynching her today.

Unvote
Vote: Pomegranate

[Pomegranate]

Hmm... let's see...

Top scum pick: Alm.

At first glance, this may seem like OMGUS. But it's not, and let me explain why.

His vote is on me now for lurking. But so far this game, I've made 29 posts, while he's only made 23. Now, that obviously doesn't mean much, as he put it earlier-

It's a quality, not a quantiity issue.

But most of Alm's posts are short comments or questions based on snippets of quotes. That could be useful if they were good scumhunting questions, and he actually commented on the answers. But he doesn't. He'll ask a question, but I can't tell why, because he doesn't do anything with/based off of the answers, nor do they generate any real content. Moreover, the questions look like he's posting them only so that it seems like he's actually doing something, even though he isn't much.

Some examples:

Eh, why not

Unvote, Vote AlmasterGM

for being lazy and not, yanno, scumhunting.

LOL.

While Vaya does often lurk D1, I think that in this instance it correlates with general inactivity on the site. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I don't think it has anything to do with D1 - in the last game I played with her, she was scum and lurked to victory. Moreover, even if it is D1 only, how is this even remotely acceptable?

I don't think we should lynch Vaya today. And I don't think that there's a pressing need for UK to claim today.

Ok, so what should we be doing?

Ugh. On one hand, I think Pom is probably the best lynch candidate for today. But on the other hand, those are three really quick votes.

I agree that the day probably should last longer, but letting up pressure right now is a poor plan, especially given Pom's most recent badposting.

Also, often he will merely agree with a post, and not actually scumhunt:

I agree with Glork on the lack of content issue. In addition, this excuse is particuarily bad because it is extremely generic and doesn't even apply to this game at all - there's been plenty to analyze thus far. Get to it.

And look at this:

Theory discussion usually distracts from actual scumhunting.

Yet three of Alm's precious few posts are about a potential cop:

Public Service Announcement:

In this game, it is a terrible idea to assume that someone is not a miller simply because they have not claimed miller. Claiming miller on another day is not a scum tell. If you are an investigative role and you got a guilty, it is highly likely that your result is wrong.

That is all.

My point here is that we should lynch scummy people, not play follow-the-cop (or any other role, for that matter).

Me wonders why not. I mean, it was such a successful tactic for town that they had to come with an alternative (macho cops and roleblockers) so the game wouldn't be unbalanced.

If you're in a mini-normal with a confirmed sane cop, then sure, it's not a bad plan (although even then it's dangerous, thanks to the possibility of a Godfather). This isn't a mini-normal. It's a theme game with lots of bastard modding. While this doesn't mean we ignore cops entirely, it does mean we take what they have to say with a grain of salt.

Alm's largest posts are the ones explaining his flavor, and why he may have to be converted. No actual scumhunting:

That was a serious post. I can change a player's alignment during night. Only one per night, though. I was thinking that it was easy to create a happy ending if mafia just outed themselves and I turned them into town. As UK said, you can test it with your weakest member.

Use it on me, please. This is not a joke.

Use it on me, please. This is not a joke.

Is this a scum claim? I just would like to be clear on it.

It is NOT a scum claim. However, based on the flavor and rules text of my role PM, I believe S_B's ability, if it actually exists, will function on me.

It is NOT a scum claim. However, based on the flavor and rules text of my role PM, I believe S_B's ability, if it actually exists, will function on me.

Then, may I assume you are third party and want your alignment changed to town?

Because, as far as I can tell, s_b's ability will change your alignment completely, regardless of what you start at.

Not exactly. Perhaps I am interpreting the rhetoric "alignment change" differently then you based on the information I have. I win with the town, but I am currently stuck using the suck that is WinBlows. I would like to convert to the greatness that is Linux. That is what I suspect S_B may be able to do.

Or I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

You have to be converted before you can win, correct?

My role PM doesn't explicitly say that. It merely says WinBlows sucks and it would be much cooler if I were using Linux. I inferred from this that something good for me and/or the town would happen if I was converted. It could just be flavor, but given S_B's role, I don't think that's the case.

Hmm... I'm not sure. Your reasons may be right, but what if I turn you to scum?

I don't know the precise rules text and flavor of your role so I'm not sure exactly what will happen, but a town-->scum switch doesn't really seem to fit with the flavor of the game. It would make significantly more sense for each faction to be attempting to recruit players to its side, especially given what my role PM says. Do what you think is best, though.

In any case, though, I'm afraid this debacle is destracting us from scumhunting. Let's not let all the discussion focus on this one particular issue.

Fun fact: Vaya still hasn't posted. I like my current vote.

tl;dr: Almaster is acting very hypocritical regarding posting content, and IIoA.

Vote:AlmasterGM

.