Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[SerialClergyman]

DLA - your case beautifully and extensively proves that Neto was defending me and buddying me all day.

Here's what it doesn't show:

When I replaced in, I was dead for all money. Rampage had decreed it, CSL had self-voted and it looked like I was in trouble.

Neto, at this point in the game,

decided that it was time to defend me

. He did this

despite initially calling for a policy lynch on CSL

. There is an obvious dynamic here - defend the townie who is about to get lynched. When the tables turned and he was on his deathbed, he did the next best thing to defending a townie - drawing a direct link between himself and a townie.

If I'm his partner - I'm not sure what you are thinking was the point of doing all this. He had no power within the town, so his defence wasn't going to get me off the hook. It seemed certain I was going to be lynched when Albert went so far as to ask the mod to give me a different role so he wouldn't have to immediately lynch the person he just asked into the game. So what do YOU think scum does in the face of someone else having an inevitable lynch? Neto had every opportunity to get on my wagon and didn't - he chose to seperate himself from people attacking me. I think that speaks volumes.

What's more, is you can see that dynamic heat up as the pressure gets piled on. Look at his 696 which comes directyly after Albert starts the second strong push for my lynch. I get 3 votes out of nowhere and there is momentum pushing through for my lynch and Neto chimes up again with his defence. 533 is another example - as the votes start to pile on and my lynch looks more likely, he is more vocal in his defence. You can bet your bottom dollar that his plan tomorrow if I were lynched would be to go after Saber for 'scummy bandwagoning', yet another reason why saber is likely-town.

So yes, Neto defended me, but he defended me in the least logical spots where mafia would defend their buddy. It wasn't subtle, it wasn't informed and it RAMPED UP the more likely I was to getting lynched.

@ Kise - Your player spot is scummy and at risk of a vote from me until you start posting content. Your slot has one piece of content that was scummy and we need more from you ASAP.

@farside - Do you think kiku deserves to be considered to be on the wagon? Do you think there's any hint of opportunism to pushing yourself onto an inevitable wagon and then claiming the next day that the best place to hunt scum is the area where you are not?

[DarkLightA]

Post post how you saw Neto was attacking DLA?

He never did attack me, really. I checked the meta.

@SC, I'm laughing hard right now.. That's BS.

Neto, at this point in the game, decided that it was time to defend me. He did this despite initially calling for a policy lynch on CSL.

Why would a scum "decide that it was time to" defend a TOWNIE, and therefore put himself in risk of getting lynched?

Super-Duper-Omega3-HoS: Serial

[SerialClergyman]

Why would a scum "decide that it was time to" defend a TOWNIE, and therefore put himself in risk of getting lynched?

Exactly when he did defend me - when my lynch seemed inevitable. If you think scum never defend townies then I can't even argue about it, but it's not true, it can't be true or else scum would be ridiculously easy to find.

My argument isn't convaluted or elaborate - it states that when a townies looks for sure like he's going to be mislynched, that's the perfect time for scum to start defending him.

And as I pointed out, you'll note that Neto's strongest defences all came as my lynched looked more and more likely. That is the opposite of what you'd expect buddy --> buddy defense would go.

His massive snap at saber is a perfect example, you've quoted it above. saber joins a group of people voting me that's now at a decent level, Albert is pushing the wagon and so Neto picks up his defence and calls Saber out for vote hopping. You can SEE his mind working, you can SEE how he was planning to go after saber for bandwagoning after the flip, it's blatant. There's no other reasonable explanation.

[DarkLightA]

He ATTACKED saber.
He DEFENDED you.

They're opposites.

He was staring into the eyes of his lynch but ignored it to protect a townie? Doubtful.

[SerialClergyman]

That's the WHOLE POINT. By defending me and attacking Saber he shows EXACTLY what he's going to be doing after I'm lynched - going after Saber saying 'I told you so'.

Let me turn that question onto you. Say you're staring into the eyes of your lynch. What do you do?

[DarkLightA]

I would try to avoid it, but as long as it'd help town I wouldn't care... And your point is?

[SerialClergyman]

Zzz.

If you were scum, staring at your lynch like in Neto's position, what would you do?

[DarkLightA]

Definitely not stop a townie BW...

[SerialClergyman]

He never had the power nor the intent to stop it. That's why he only really pushed against it when it was looking more and more likely it'd happen.

I'll tell you the one thing you don't do, when your back is against the wall and it is truly a matter of time before you're lynched. The one thing you would never do in that situation is heavily defend a scumbuddy.

If you think that anyone as scum would sit on L-1 with everyone lining up to hammer would push a link between themselves and their buddy then I can't continue this conversation because there's nothing left to say. It just flat out makes no sense.

[DarkLightA]

No, I think I'd better explain the circumstances to you:

1. CSL gets in trouble. Neto joins the attack.
2. CSL gets replaced. Neto goes "Yay" and pulls away the attack.
3. SC is still in trouble. Neto goes "Don't lynch him!!"
4. SC is still in trouble. Neto goes "Is it fair to judge his character by the replacee? (LOL)
5. Neto gets in trouble for defending the band wagoned guy. NETO STOPS DEFENDING SC.
6. SC DEFENDS NETO.
7. Neto get's lynch as scum.

Comments, questions, concerns?

[SerialClergyman]

1) SC never defends Neto. I've always thought that he was scum since my very first post. I at one point didn't want to lynch him specifically because he was defending me and I needed all the help I could get and I acknowledged it then that it was pure self-preservation. Then a wagon started up on him, it was easier to self-preserve and knock off a suspect so I killed two birds with one stone. Done.

2) If you can ever find where Neto stops defending me, that'd be awesome, because he defended me right up to his lynch, as far as I can see, which is EXACTLY THE POINT.

3) You've hit the nail on the head right here:

1. CSL gets in trouble. Neto joins the attack.
2. CSL gets replaced. Neto goes "Yay" and pulls away the attack.
3. SC is still in trouble. Neto goes "Don't lynch him!!

Now - why is it that Neto ATTACKS CSL when he's in trouble but DEFENDS me? If I was scum, he'd have just kept up with the bus, no reason why not to. In fact, the replacement gave him the perfect cover to slip off the wagon, defend the soon-to-be-townflipped and gett himself some much-needed town cred on the way. Not to mention being able to point fingers and Saber and Albert, a move he was already setting up before the lynch.

These points show EXACTLY why I'm not scum with Neto. If you can explain the difference between him attacking CSL-under-fire and not attacking SC-under-fire any better I'll.. I don't know wtf I'll do, I'll buy you a cookie.

Ugh. I'm totally drained from this conversation. I think it's reached diminished returns, I'll try not to get so explosively frustrated that I type out another one of these posts. I just... I just can't get it across and it's driving me mad.

Going to go have a stiff drink

[SerialClergyman]

PS - here's the quote from D1 when I'm asked about Neto:

Well, that was all there is, but you'll have to grant me a little slack - I've been posting a hell of a lot trying to push my main cases and not get myself lynched. I've given some indication of why I thought he was scummy before Albert and Elli made their cases. At the moment, there's also some self-preservation there because he seems to be actively defending me, and I need all the help I can get to stay alive. You might consider that scummy, but it's simple pragmatism, I'm afraid.

PPS - Shotty also spent a long time defending CSL and me to farside and has been my number one suspect since D1.

[DarkLightA]

So you're saying that the fact that he didn't fully stop the buddying clears you? uh uh.

[Ojanen]

Watch out, quote wall coming. Sorry.

At the time you hammered there were several conversations going on, contrary to Serial's fake hammer time.

I disagree. Only two players requested time, and one of them put Neto to L-1. If Albert wanted to stall for time then he shouldn't have revoted.

There were

conversations going on

, as I already said.
The last content posts before your hammer:

It's important that we get to hear from Kitty's slot and have the rest of the town comment on the situation before we hammer Netopalis.

-question and answer between Saber/ABR
-question from Serial to ABR
-short shout out of scummy names from Kitty, catchup is under process
-Serial asks question from Kitty, doesn't like what he saw
-you hammer
That's clearly a cut.

See what you are doing here:

Disliked excusing herself as part of the wagon btw - none of the Neto momentum came from her spot.

You can't have it both ways. Either give me credit for being on the wagon, or don't. In situation 1 you are "blaming" me for ending the day(even though Neto was scum.) In situation 2 you are condemning me for pointing out that I hammered. That's not really fair. If we leave the thread open, people are going to continue to talk.

Deadline was just as far away when Serial hammered.

There were still two players who had contiributed very little.

MIGHTILY disagreeing that I'm unreasonable here.
There are obviously different ways of being on a wagon depending on timing, general situation, accompagnying persuasion of others etc. For the type of wagoning that creates momentum on scum you would get credit. For hammering someone who clearly looks like a inevitable lynch there is no reason at all to give extra credit. Me disliking you hinting to try and claim wagon credit is perfectly reasonable.

Albert had stressed not to hammer, modifying his stance from earlier.

Again: no. He put Neto back to L-1. Neto could have self hammered to end discussion.

This is just false, see the last quote from Albert above. Yes, he put Neto to L-1. And that got this interesting reaction from you.

As for you vs. Serial asking question of flip affecting reads, you asked in (false) twilight from everyone conclusions of a flip directly implying chaining Serial. Serial asked from one person with hyperlow content implying chaining noone (pre-hammer also, but that's not as relevant since lynch seemed inevitable).
I note btw you are constantly saying variations of "Serial did it too". Can you tell what was the point of your questions instead?

You're not voting yet either. Though I think SC is obvscum here, that doesn't mean we should pile on and finish him. He may very well be town. Interesting how you characterize my day 1 play as "hammering early", and now criticze me for being conservative.

How is me voting or not voting relevant at all? I haven't called anyone obvscum today. The whole point was that your hammer is uncharacteristically hasty regards to your other play, and your explanation at the time (liking excitement or whatever similar it was) doesn't fit rest of your voting patterns. Your last sentence misses the point.
Also, do you think I am scummy?

You are confusing me. I am suspicious because I am not voting, but you don't like my "manner of attack". Who have I actually "attacked"? I feel like I spent the beginning of the day defending myself from Serial, and the players I suggested we start filtering are those not on the scum wagon from yesterday. Same question to you as to the others: Even if you are suspicious of me, do you think that both scum were on the day 1 scumwagon? If so, who else is scum? If not, why try and use my theory against me when the odds are clearly in support of my logic(1/4 is easier to sift through than 1/6.)

I don't feel like rereading you right now again, but you have definitively attacked Serial, and you have attacked the non-wagoners.
I think you are the most likely scum on the wagon, and also consider you barely on it, and you are again defending yourself based on chiming in the hammer. Off wagon I'm still looking at Shotty and Kise. I'm keeping an eye on 2 others. Yes, I find it rather likely there was scum off wagon. No, that probability is zzz. I'm not looking at 6 people (actually 5 cause I know I'm town). I'm trying to operate non-randomly based on info from the thread; I'm looking at you specifically. I'm looking at the others I'm suspicious of specifically.

"Don't hold replacement's actions against them" was weird from Neto. Slight wifom scumpoints to the Yarmond spot I think then, whoever's turn it is not to play it currently (Kise?).

This is difficult to figure out as well. Inactives are usually easy targets for scum, so going out of one's way to protect player slots that are nearly vacant just makes little sense. Wifom, and almost to me seems like a train of thought we should abandon.

Wait wait wait. You agree with DLA that Neto going out of his way to give clean slate to CSL replacement is scummy, but in the case of Yarmond we should abandon the thought, when what he really did was express desire to give clean slate to everyone replacing in?

Oj: Who did Neto pursue as scum on day 1?

This means who he thought was scum? (insert compulsory "I have ESL" excuse here.)
Too impatient to iso right now. Off the top of my head he attacked ABR, shaped up to hammer hewitt, attacked Saber, vaguely attacked many really with not carrying that much out (expressed willingness to policy lynch DLA, CSL at some points for instance.).
What is the point of you quizzing me?

[Ojanen]

This is just ridiculous. You know just as well as me that ABR was pretty much obv-town, especially after the lynch, and it would be stupid for scum not to lynch him, regardless of kik's post. She was just stating the obvious.

That specific point was badly explained, you're probably right. Mind you, the post was before the flip. And Serial scum isn't obvious to me at all.

Neto goes out on a slight limb to meta-defend DLA early, then on goes to pains on how to change that stance to attacking him.

Post post how you saw Neto was attacking DLA?

I looked at it again and I'm getting slightly fuzzier about it since Neto seems to always attack DLA verbally rather than voting.
Individual town read on DLA still stands, although his last argument with Serial makes me argh.
Neto attacks DLA in some way: at least iso numbers 12, 15, 25, 28, 35

[dramonic]

The sixteenth Votecount: Super Duper Hand of Suspicion!

SerialClergyman (2): Scigatt, DarkLightA
DarkLightA (1): Farside,
Shotty (1): Ellibereth

Not Voting (6): Kise, SttB, Ojanen, SC, Kikuchiyo, hewitt

With 10 alive it take 6 to lynch!
Deadline is the 8th, but it can be extended.

Hewitt has yet to respond to his prod...

[kikuchiyo]

There were

conversations going on

, as I already said.

I never argued this.

MIGHTILY disagreeing that I'm unreasonable here.
There are obviously different ways of being on a wagon depending on timing, general situation, accompagnying persuasion of others etc. For the type of wagoning that creates momentum on scum you would get credit. For hammering someone who clearly looks like a inevitable lynch there is no reason at all to give extra credit. Me disliking you hinting to try and claim wagon credit is perfectly reasonable.

Agree to disagree.

This is just false, see the last quote from Albert above. Yes,

he put Neto to L-1

. And that got this interesting reaction from you.

Hindsight is 20/20. I have not attempted to argue that me hammering "clears" me. I simply entered today pointing to the group I felt it would be easier to sift through. Albert placed Neto in the postition he did. Neto could have self hammered just as easily as a hypothetical scumbuddy could have.

As for you vs. Serial asking question of flip affecting reads, you asked in (false) twilight from everyone conclusions of a flip directly implying chaining Serial. Serial asked from one person with hyperlow content implying chaining noone (pre-hammer also, but that's not as relevant since lynch seemed inevitable).

Soooo, the lynch was "inevitable" after Serial's hammer, but not before? I am not following. The questions were the same with different wording. We were both asking questions of others in regards to how a flip was going to affect reads. Mine was a bit more specific in nature, but essentially the same. How was I "chaining" anyone? I was asking opinions.

I note btw you are constantly saying variations of "Serial did it too". Can you tell what was the point of your questions instead?

The point of my questions was to see how players reads would be affected by the flip.

How is me voting or not voting relevant at all? I haven't called anyone obvscum today. The whole point was that your hammer is uncharacteristically hasty regards to your other play, and your explanation at the time (liking excitement or whatever similar it was) doesn't fit rest of your voting patterns. Your last sentence misses the point.

Expand on "uncharacteristically hasty" if you can.
Also, do you think I am scummy?

I don't feel like rereading you right now again, but you have definitively attacked Serial, and you have attacked the non-wagoners.

Funny. If you are going to make an accusation, please back it up. I specifically started the day by saying we should hunt off the wagon. Serial was on the wagon. I am not attacking him and I have not voted him. I am remaining active and responding to everything. If you take the time to reread you will plainly see that

it was Serial who attacked me.

Off wagon I'm still looking at Shotty and Kise. I'm keeping an eye on 2 others. Yes, I find it rather likely there was scum off wagon.

By all means, grace us with your opinions of them when you're ready.

Wait wait wait. You agree with DLA that Neto going out of his way to give clean slate to CSL replacement is scummy, but in the case of Yarmond we should abandon the thought, when what he really did was express desire to give clean slate to everyone replacing in?

No. I am saying that because Neto defended multiple players the way he did, that we might benefit from finding another way to scumhunt than simply trying to determnie who he defended most. Especially among inactive players.

This means who he thought was scum? (insert compulsory "I have ESL" excuse here.)
Too impatient to iso right now. Off the top of my head he attacked ABR, shaped up to hammer hewitt, attacked Saber, vaguely attacked many really with not carrying that much out (expressed willingness to policy lynch DLA, CSL at some points for instance.).
What is the point of you quizzing me?

Because I think it is important we look at the whole picture and not just address who Neto defended, but see who he attacked and how he went about it. I don't expect much over the holidays from everyone, but this game is going to require some serious rereading if we are to make the right decision today. I accept that part of that is my fault, but again, hindsight is 20/20.

[kikuchiyo]

ebwop:

Also, do you think I am scummy?

This escaped me. Please note that in 1041 this is not me asking this of you. It is residual from your post. In response: No, as of right now I do not think you are scummy. Your reasoning is logical, I just disagree with your conclusions.

[farside22]

@farside - Do you think kiku deserves to be considered to be on the wagon? Do you think there's any hint of opportunism to pushing yourself onto an inevitable wagon and then claiming the next day that the best place to hunt scum is the area where you are not?

That was what gives me pause is that theory because yes I can see it as a scum gambit and wouldn't be surprised of it.
Again though it's not something I base my vote on it's a tool and if all kiku said was you were not on voting for scum therefore you are scum I would be saying try hard to her.

@SC I disagree with post 1027. There is different type of players you have to account for when you talk like this. Either a player (scum) doesn't want to lynch their scum partner and keep an advantage of numbers or they want be part of the wagon to look town to give them a shot. It's really an either or situation in my mind.

All in all I don't give SC a free pass I will point out he was the first to really bring shotty into a scum light where as shotty defended CSL (again just gives me pause and thoughts). SC did bring up neto in his intial read so it's either a ploy by scum trying to look town by bussing or town reading things and finding scum.
I'm torn with SC in comparison to CSL. Neto defending SC as I said can be either or situation but looking at one defending while the other is accusing it's a hard thing to swallow a scum pair there. Too much WIFOM starts to come to my head which doesnt' help.
I still see neto had not attacking DLA at all.

[Ojanen]

There were

conversations going on

, as I already said.

I never argued this.

False! See:

At the time you hammered there were several conversations going on, contrary to Serial's fake hammer time.

I disagree. Only two players requested time, and one of them put Neto to L-1. If Albert wanted to stall for time then he shouldn't have revoted.

----

This is just false, see the last quote from Albert above. Yes,

he put Neto to L-1

. And that got this interesting reaction from you.

Hindsight is 20/20. I have not attempted to argue that me hammering "clears" me. I simply entered today pointing to the group I felt it would be easier to sift through. Albert placed Neto in the postition he did. Neto could have self hammered just as easily as a hypothetical scumbuddy could have.

Honestly, after Albert

just

completely explicitly saying it's important to get reads from everyone and KittyMo before hammer, I cannot see how you can argue he wanted to end the day right away.
Pressure can get interesting reactions, like your hammer. I guess we'll agree to disagree that L-1 vote always means "I am fine with a hammer". (if that would be the case, claiming for instance would happen on a different way to the standard culture)
Fact is, you have attempted to defend yourself through the pure hammer itself.

Soooo, the lynch was "inevitable" after Serial's hammer, but not before? I am not following. The questions were the same with different wording. We were both asking questions of others in regards to how a flip was going to affect reads. Mine was a bit more specific in nature, but essentially the same. How was I "chaining" anyone? I was asking opinions.

Your first sentence seems confused, both question occurences were after the Serial hammer.
You asked from everyone, Serial from the hyperlowcontent Kise slot.
You asked pre-flip from all if Neto scumflip makes Serial scum. That has a sidetaste of chaining.

The point of my questions was to see how players reads would be affected by the flip.

And why did you want to know this from every player in the game after the hammer?

Expand on "uncharacteristically hasty" if you can.
Also, do you think I am scummy?

I get the feeling I need to repeat myself a lot here.
You voted a flakerslot/unvoted all the way since page 8 until the hammer. You are agreeing on Serial obvscum and yet haven't voted today. You said you hammered because you like excitement.

Funny. If you are going to make an accusation, please back it up. I specifically started the day by saying we should hunt off the wagon. Serial was on the wagon. I am not attacking him and I have not voted him. I am remaining active and responding to everything. If you take the time to reread you will plainly see that

it was Serial who attacked me.

You haven't voted anyone.
I guess I thought this was your position on Serial, correct me if I'm wrong:

So, what do you guys think. I think that SC is obv-scum..

I tend to agree. the defense is so protracted, and I believe that most of it came when Neto was not on the table for lynch(though I'd have to see a vote analysis for comparison). I think ABR was the only one pressuring Neto for some time.

Also, on a skim, I can't see any content brought up on who from the wagoners is scum, except that you're not sold on Shotty. Just going rounds and rounds asking what they think of each other.

No. I am saying that because Neto defended multiple players the way he did, that we might benefit from finding another way to scumhunt than simply trying to determnie who he defended most. Especially among inactive players.

Urrrrrrgh. Look at the quote above this one where you agree with DLA. I really don't get you.

What is the point of you quizzing me?

Because I think it is important we look at the whole picture and not just address who Neto defended, but see who he attacked and how he went about it. I don't expect much over the holidays from everyone, but this game is going to require some serious rereading if we are to make the right decision today. I accept that part of that is my fault, but again, hindsight is 20/20.

I still don't understand the question, it was an interpretation/analysis-void "what" question.

Goddammit with the Shotty iso!
I got halfway through but I'm just so tired again (I've played 7 gigs in the last 2 days and the next one is in 7,5 hours again and gotta sleep), not trusting my reading anymore either. Tomorrow. Sorry.

[kikuchiyo]

There were

conversations going on

, as I already said.

I never argued this.

False! See:

At the time you hammered there were several conversations going on, contrary to Serial's fake hammer time.

I disagree. Only two players requested time, and one of them put Neto to L-1. If Albert wanted to stall for time then he shouldn't have revoted.

I am not disagreeing there were conversations going on, I am disagreeing with the assessment that there was some sort of "cooperative town decision" to wait. How am I supposed to know that the other players "stalling" are going to deliver? Could I have waited? Yes. Let's move on.

Honestly, after Albert

just

completely explicitly saying it's important to get reads from everyone and KittyMo before hammer, I cannot see how you can argue he wanted to end the day right away.

That's not what I'm arguing. I thought Neto was a good lynch candidate. The fact that noone was crossing over to hammer him suggested to me that one of those players was most likely scum if Neto flipped scum. I got antsy. I hammered. Sue me.

Pressure can get interesting reactions, like your hammer. I guess we'll agree to disagree that L-1 vote always means "I am fine with a hammer". (if that would be the case, claiming for instance would happen on a different way to the standard culture)

Neto had been at L-1 before. Do you think Albert's unvote then revote changed in any way the inevitabitilty you claim to exist surrounding the Neto lynch? Hint: It didn't. There was no need to place Neto back at L-1. Don't blame me for Albert's mistake. Neto was scum. He could have self hammered.

Fact is, you have attempted to defend yourself through the pure hammer itself.

No. I am defending myself by participating in excess on day 2, questioning my suspects, and responding to my accusers.

Your first sentence seems confused, both question occurences were after the Serial hammer.
You asked from everyone, Serial from the hyperlowcontent Kise slot.
You asked pre-flip from all if Neto scumflip makes Serial scum. That has a sidetaste of chaining.

The responses to my questions would allow me to see other players who "have a taste of chaining". How do you not see that as a relevant inquiry?

And why did you want to know this from every player in the game after the hammer?

This has been answered.

You haven't voted anyone.
I guess I thought this was your position on Serial, correct me if I'm wrong:

So, what do you guys think. I think that SC is obv-scum..

I tend to agree. the defense is so protracted, and I believe that most of it came when Neto was not on the table for lynch(though I'd have to see a vote analysis for comparison). I think ABR was the only one pressuring Neto for some time.

Also, on a skim, I can't see any content brought up on who from the wagoners is scum, except that you're not sold on Shotty. Just going rounds and rounds asking what they think of each other.

Actually, Serial was on the wagon and started the day as my biggest suspect "on the wagon". I think my stances have been clear. Would you like a town/scum list? Off the wagon, Shotty is my biggest suspect. What is wrong with asking other players what they think of each other? How else can I determine who is willing to lynch who? How else can I garner information to use after another flip?

No. I am saying that because Neto defended multiple players the way he did, that we might benefit from finding another way to scumhunt than simply trying to determnie who he defended most. Especially among inactive players.

Urrrrrrgh. Look at the quote above this one where you agree with DLA. I really don't get you.

Perhaps you should look at the timestamps when you quote opinions. Based on Neto's defense of other players we have differing views on who among those defended are most likely scum. Therefore, we should change our tactics to help us determine who is actually scum. Or would you prefer we blindly lynch one of DLA/Serial?

What is the point of you quizzing me?

Because I think it is important we look at the whole picture and not just address who Neto defended, but see who he attacked and how he went about it. I don't expect much over the holidays from everyone, but this game is going to require some serious rereading if we are to make the right decision today. I accept that part of that is my fault, but again, hindsight is 20/20.

I still don't understand the question, it was an interpretation/analysis-void "what" question.

You asked me "what is the point of you quizzing me?". I say, "because I think its important to look at the whole picture and not just address who Neto defended." What's the issue? I am suggesting that we work together to find scum by following a different line of thought than the one that seems to have led us to a disagreement over which one of Serial/DLA is scum. Lynching out of that pair may not be the best play. If it is, we can always come back to it.

We need input from the other three player slots who didn't make it onto the wagon.

[farside22]

Ugh I just thought about something I should not have.......

unvote:

I'm going to go crazy this game I just know it.

[DarkLightA]

Hmm.. The problem is that we're arguing with about 1/2 of the game as lurkers. Maybe we're all town..

[Ellibereth]

The whole DLA vs. Serial argument is just begging for a massive amount of WIFOM. Not going to think about it right now.

Shotty's still scum, look at his interactions with/concerning Neto:
Irrelevant talk
Suddenly wants to talk to Albert about Neto after launching attack on DLA + Albert.
Neto reread plus "someone else"
Says he sees where Albert is coming from but still wants to go for easier lynch.

[DarkLightA]

12 hours have passed, Neto realizes that I'm not going to provide him with the excuse to hammer any time soon, so he goes back to voting Ellibereth. Now keep in mind that Neto was almost going to hammer hewitt, yet in this post, he claims to not have seen my case on hewitt nor having a good understanding of why hewitt was suspected, requiring him to read hewitt in iso. IOW, Neto was going to hammer hewitt with no idea whatsoever why hewitt was scummy. This is also where Neto starts to get hostile with me for not having given him an easy excuse to hammer and end the day. Then Nets goes and equates CSL to DLA, then says CSL is better than DLA. He then got even more pissed off at me for not replying to a question he should have already known the answer to. This culminates in a vote. Goes on to say that I attacked hewitt for no real reason, which is just absurd, and shows just how little he is involved in the game. He has a strong emotional reaction to my post condemning SC for replacing CSL, and this is where he starts his campaign to wipe CSL's slate clean. Anyway, he claims that his "serious accusation" vote was just a vote to accentuate a point (he still wants to know why I suspected hewitt). He basically lied about his vote. He goes on and on, back to saber, then again to me, defends clergyman some more, derails the thread, denies having ever tried to policy lynch saber or DLA, puts the blame on me, lies again about his first vote on me as he can't seem to decide whether he voted me seriously or to make me answer why I think hewitt is scummy which I stated over 20 pages ago.

ABR's last big post. I think this is significant.

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Vote: Hewitt