Mafia 105 - Caught in the Crossfire (Game Over)

[Pads]

Vote Count, Day 5

hiphop ( 1 ) SpyreX
shotty to the body ( 2 ) Sotty7 Pads
fhqwhgads ( 0 )
Pads ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
RedCoyote ( 1 ) hiphop
Sotty7 ( 2 ) Shotty to the Body RedCoyote
SpyreX ( 0 )
Unvote ( 2 ) fhqwhgads popsofctown

With 8 alive, 5 needed for a majority.
Deadline is December 23rd, 11am EST

What's that? The fatal flaw in my argument is that if you were scum false claiming vig the real vig would shoot you during the night or next day phase whilst remaining anonymous? Oh, okay. When I said the real vig would counter, I meant he will counter with a headshot, not with "Oh, hai, everyone. I'm the real vig."

Pops, from my point of view, the option was directing the scum's gun (assuming they hadn't noticed it themselves, which is unlikely) versus continuing to vote for someone who just might be a townie. Which is dumber? I'd rather them use their kill then us use our lynch.

But that moment is gone. He's offered no excuse for his terribly unproductive game long play, instead choosing to offer a textbook Scum-made case on Sotty (i.e. one or two reasonable points, five or six mediocre points, and 1 or 2 misreps) as misdirection.

[SpyreX]

That was almost close enough to what I said to not be a total misrepresentation. What I said, is that if he's the vig, it explains his actions. If he claims to be another role, I would not be so sure that his actions are explained by having that role. Not being sure implies that I would consider it before I made a call.

Wooosh. If this:

To that end, more than just them claiming a role needs to be examined. Their entire play, within the context of their role, must be considered. Their list of night actions must be considered, in addition to any breadcrumbs they left. As I said before, if Shotty is the vig, what I took for scummy play is reasonably explained. Another power role? I'm not so sure.

Isn't some kind of WORDS for "If Shotty doesn't claim vig I'll have to re-evaluate in the less than a day we have (i.e. lynch him)" well golly gee.

I mean, its not like you're pushing for a lynch on him if he claims something else...right?

To anyone who gets their panties ruffled by that, let me ask you this: Do you think we stand any realistic chance of hitting scum today if we issue a blanket refusal to lynch uncountered power roles?

Ohh wait there it is my bad.

You know... thinking about stuff? Reacting to stimuli, having your opinions changed by what you see in the game? Something that you have failed to do for the entirety of the game?

You know what you are totally right. Its not like I've changed my mind on Shotty at all. Or went back and forth on hiphop because his play is like throwing my brain in a blender. Or even sotty.

ACTUALLY, I'm pretty sure I've been adamant on you and pops. But, well, that is everyone.

I can't help but wonder if that's because SpyreX can't see it, because he's not town, and can't see the game through a town's eyes.

THIS JUST IN POPS AND I MUST BE SCUM SAYS THE MOST statement ever.

Because why? Ohh, thats right the "claim when a wagon is dissolving for mysterious superpowers" idea went whoo-bang.

My god.

Vote: Pads

Pops, Shotty and apparently my secret OTHER scumbuddy because well, hell, there's 8 of us afterall wonder powers unite and make this happen.

[zoraster]

Deadline is in 11 hours. Currently no player has a plurality.

[SpyreX]

Arrrghghghghgh

Unvote, Vote: Scotty

[Pads]

Hey, guys, have you seen Pads' latest post? It proves he's scum.


Go ahead and put that line in your sig, there SpyreX. It'll save everyone the trouble of having to read what 'new' you have to say with your latest general sweeping dismissal of other people's opinions (psst, that's a scum tell, btw). You and pops have been holding hands all game. People who have noticed the connection are not out of their minds.

How much damage have we done to the town in the name of 'good policy'? Are we really going to lynch Sotty based on the fragile case of a pressured lurker who hasn't made a case on anything since, what, Day 2, in the shadow of a significantly more overwhelming case against said lurker? Seriously, lynch me before jumping on that one.

Damn straight I'm going to make a call with whatever time we have left. What else would I do? Stick my fingers in my ears and close my eyes? I'm observing and discussing until the curtain comes down.

PPE: Scotty?

[SpyreX]

Did you unvote and then ask for a claim, specifically a claim of a vig?

Did you then pretty clearly say that anything but a vig claim was going to have to require you to "think" about the claim?

Did you suggest to lynch uncounterclaimed power roles as that would be the only way to find scum?

Is saying this has anything to do with "good policy" a stretch by all measurable fashions?

Does this series of statements made by you strike ANY chords of hypocrisy?

SttB is implying that he holds one or more of the following beliefs:

a) Only scum find townies scummy.

b) The scum made a choice to make themselves look bad by killing someone they had publically denounced as scummy, and revealing that person to be non-scum.

c) We should out the vig.

The first option is a path to a mislynch, the second option doesn't make much sense,

and the third option is just anti-town play

. A reread of Shotty to the Body ensued. It is not good.

Is the lurker you're defending weighing in at 35 posts?

Is the lurker you're attacking weighing in at over double?

Have you opted to defend a lurker because the other "hasn't made a case" when the lurker you've opted to defend pretty much has done the same things?

Are you scum?

(Hint: The answer to all these questions is yes)

[Pads]

Did you unvote and then ask for a claim, specifically a claim of a vig?

Yes.

Did you then pretty clearly say that anything but a vig claim was going to have to require you to "think" about the claim?

Yes.

Did you suggest to lynch uncounterclaimed power roles as that would be the only way to find scum?

No. This is what I'm talking about, you're missing (of refusing to acknowledge) the subtleties. I said that at this point in the game, power roles have very little purpose left. I agree with not lynching an uncountered doc on Day 1, because he has a game full of doc'ing in front of him, and the scum are loathe to leave him alive because of that. But at this point, the Townie part of the PM is worth far more to me than, say, another shot in the dark, such as the IdiotKing kill.

And I think the scum share that point of view. Leaving a power role alive for an extra night is worth the WIFOM it creates, so the lack of a dead claimed power role the next morning isn't enough for us to determine that the claimer was lying.

If we issue a blanket refusal to not lynch anyone who says 'Zomg, don't lynch me, I'z the Town Paperboy!' then the most realistic conclusion to that algorithm is ending up lynching a Vanilla Townie who is telling the truth. Did I say to insta slam down the hammer on any non-vig PR that might be claimed? Of course not. What I said is that an uncountered power role can not be a free ticket to the next day at this point.

I'm saying that Day 1 policy shouldn't be copy and pasted to Day 5.

Is the lurker you're defending weighing in at 35 posts?

Is the lurker you're attacking weighing in at over double?

This is a fallacy and you know it. Quantity does not equal Quality. Besides, the case against Shotty is clearly for 'PLAINSIGHT' lurking. I naively thought that I didn't have to add the word plainsight in every time I discussed his lurkiness, but apparently I do, else it be forgotten.

Have you opted to defend a lurker because the other "hasn't made a case" when the lurker you've opted to defend pretty much has done the same things?

I do not accept the premise that Sotty is a lurker. Certainly not the most active, but nowhere near, say, a Zakeri. Besides, Sotty's big post on the last page is worth more than all of Shotty's Day 3+ play combined.

I'm still curious as to who you voted for in 1878. Context implies Sotty, but I (and likely the mod) would like to know for sure.

[SpyreX]

Nearing lylo your argument is that power roles, namely a day vig, have little purpose.

I have to say that again:

Nearing lylo your argument is that power roles, namely a day vig, have little purpose.

Which is even MORE amazing in this game because the damn vig has killed all the mafia. WE sure haven't. I...

Anyways.

I am not even sure where this absolutely amazing and false dilemma of save the PR's is coming from.

Pretty sure we haven't, in fact, ran into that scenario yet either.

Pretty sure that no one has even pretended to say "Ohh snap its a PR lets all bow to him in his PR glory"

Pretty sure that lynching lurkers is going to become even MORE relevant (like, ohh, PR's) as we approach lylo.

And, yea, scum are totally gonna not gun for a PR for the WIFOM factor. Doubly so a vig. I mean, not like the vig has interrupted any plans thus far rite.

No, quantity does not equal quality. I am making no comments about that. I am making the direct and vocal statement that 35 posts is absolutely unacceptable and the fact that you're defending this as somehow not lurking is truly a beautiful and rare flower.

And that large post? The one that calls Shotty scum and everyone else town except for Red who maaaayyy be scum? That is your silver shield of the true paragon of scumhunting?

Which such awesome little bits as:

Pads thinks a lot like me. I think he is town simply because of this fact, we use a lot of the same logic on people especially his reasoning for rolf investigating fhq

OR

I keep flipping on him. The start of today was really bad, he seemed to be spreading scumminess every where and seemed a bit panicked. Lately I have been seeing where he is coming from. I think his case on me is really weak and he could easily be scum. He has been saying I am scummy for several days and yet hasn't really done anything about it until today when Shotty gets some decent pressure. Looking like there is a link there.

And just so its clear:

Unvote, Vote: Sotty7

Just so its ultra-clear: If a wagon were to form on Pads high-fives all around.

Extra points for leaving out entirely the earlier "OHH LOOK AT HIM AND HIS ANTI-TOWN VIG LOOKING OHH YA ARE YOU VIG?"

[SpyreX]

You know whats awesome?

Looking at the main MS page and seeing the last post in a different thread be Shotty's and nothing here.

[Pads]

Nearing lylo your argument is that power roles, namely a day vig, have little purpose.

In comparison to their purpose at the start of the day? Yes, of course. Are you trying to say that six days of power role is not better than one or two days?

Which is even MORE amazing in this game because the damn vig has killed all the mafia. WE sure haven't.

First of all, we don't know what killed Imaginality. Neither RayFrost nor Charter took credit, and both had an alibi (Confid and Crypto).

Second, killing them has had nothing to do with the ability to sniff them out. He was directed to kill Elvis by the town (non-PR assisted, good old fashioned scumhunting). And he counterclaimed Charter, which was easy. The one time he's gone off on his own, he killed a townie.

I put far more value in townie scumhunting than I do in power roles. And you can quote me on that until the end of time.

And if you're leading up to "Pads wants to kill the vig because he killed a townie", then please compose yourself before you do.

I am not even sure where this absolutely amazing and false dilemma of save the PR's is coming from.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Pretty sure that no one has even pretended to say "Ohh snap its a PR lets all bow to him in his PR glory"

What about a few lines up where you praised the vig as the only killer of scum in the game?

Pretty sure that lynching lurkers is going to become even MORE relevant (like, ohh, PR's) as we approach lylo.

Then help me lynch one. One based on quality, not quantity.

Or, if you'd like, we can go through all the posts in the game and count up everyone's amount of typed words, and conclude that the person with the lowest number is the scummiest. That's no less ridiculous than the way you're justifying calling Sotty a lurker now.

And, yea, scum are totally gonna not gun for a PR for the WIFOM factor. Doubly so a vig. I mean, not like the vig has interrupted any plans thus far rite

If I was scum, might I let a vig live one more night to create WIFOM and possibly create a mislynch in lylo? Uh, I would certainly consider it, yes. The strength of the power role is proportional to the doubt manufactured in the townies' minds.

No, quantity does not equal quality. I am making no comments about that. I am making the direct and vocal statement that 35 posts is absolutely unacceptable and the fact that you're defending this as somehow not lurking is truly a beautiful and rare flower.

35 doesn't seem unreasonable to me in a game that has moved at the speed that this one has because of retards like you and I willing to spam slapfights at the drop of a hat. And I hope everyone takes note of the "Quantity isn't important! 35 is bad, though!" sentiment here.

And that large post? The one that calls Shotty scum and everyone else town except for Red who maaaayyy be scum? That is your silver shield of the true paragon of scumhunting?

It shows a taste for nuance, and it's opinion laden. I said it was worth more than anything Shotty's done since 3, not that whole shield metaphor thing that you said.

Which such awesome little bits as:

Pads thinks a lot like me. I think he is town simply because of this fact, we use a lot of the same logic on people especially his reasoning for rolf investigating fhq

A reasonable observation on your part, and I noticed that line, too. Of course I"m always on the lookout for scum trying to butter me up, but I have no other reason to suspect that comment at the moment. I imagine your take on it differs slightly, however.

Extra points for leaving out entirely the earlier "OHH LOOK AT HIM AND HIS ANTI-TOWN VIG LOOKING OHH YA ARE YOU VIG?"

Why would I want to leave it out? I made an observation, and I reacted to it. That I slammed on the brakes for a moment should indicate to you that I don't have some over-arching scum plan that I"m sticking to.

[Pads]

Well, he's a (plainsight) lurker. He's only going to respond to pressure. /shrug.

[SpyreX]

In comparison to their purpose at the start of the day? Yes, of course. Are you trying to say that six days of power role is not better than one or two days?

That is exactly what I'm saying. And that seven is better than six. Etc, etc. The relative value of PR's, especially the one we are talking about actually increases as the game goes forward.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

If you are saying you were not insinuating that the end result of an uncontested PR claim would be a different lynch well go ahead and confirm by voting yourself.

What about a few lines up where you praised the vig as the only killer of scum in the game?

The hell does that have to do with anything? I'm saying I'm not going to push aside a lynch because of a claim. For example, if you claimed vig I would still lynch you because I find your play scummy.

Then help me lynch one. One based on quality, not quantity.

Or, if you'd like, we can go through all the posts in the game and count up everyone's amount of typed words, and conclude that the person with the lowest number is the scummiest. That's no less ridiculous than the way you're justifying calling Sotty a lurker now.

I haven't called RC a lurker and he has less than a handful more posts than Sotty does. There's a reason for that.

35 doesn't seem unreasonable to me in a game that has moved at the speed that this one has because of retards like you and I willing to spam slapfights at the drop of a hat. And I hope everyone takes note of the "Quantity isn't important! 35 is bad, though!" sentiment here.

Wooosh.

Lets try this again.

No. Quantity does not equal quality. I am not talking about that. I am talking specifically about the fact that THESE 35 POSTS are not quality and, also, *gasp* not quantity.

Why would I want to leave it out? I made an observation, and I reacted to it. That I slammed on the brakes for a moment should indicate to you that I don't have some over-arching scum plan that I"m sticking to.

The fact that you earlier condemned Shotty in one of your examples for "wanting to out the vig" and "that behavior is anti-town" and then you not voting for Shotty and, in fact, attempting to out him if he was the vig doesn't ring any bells?

Of course not.

This game irritates me more than most.

If Shotty gets lynched and is not scum OR if Scotty gets lynched and is scum I am voting for you and leaving it there for the rest of the game.

[RedCoyote]

And to restate my position, I wish I could lynch hiphop, but plurality voting or not, it's not happening.

You're little post script here is worrisome, because you should've known that the deadline was approaching. I told you, Spyrex, and fhq that y'all probably had a fair amount of pull to push for a hiphop lynch. I think it's too late to do so now, since none of you took it seriously.

So you're little wish here is really suspicious to me. You're making it out like your hands are tied to a Sotty lynch, when in reality you had enough time to at least attempt a hiphop wagon (you, fhq for sure, definitely Spyrex, and I would've at least considered it had any of you really attempted to sell it). To me it sounds like you are saying, "well, I wanted to lynch hiphop so don't blame me if Sotty flips town ".

---

Are we really going to lynch Sotty based on the fragile case of a pressured lurker who hasn't made a case on anything since, what, Day 2, in the shadow of a significantly more overwhelming case against said lurker? Seriously, lynch me before jumping on that one.

What does this mean? I know you are exaggerating, but if you really thought Sotty was that townie why didn't you say so earlier? I don't like this statement at all, not at all. You've said that you've liked my last few posts, if that's the case, how can you think Sotty is as townie as you are? What I'm really hesitating on is how I don't recall you ever giving Sotty a super-townie recommendation before right now, if you were that sure she was town why didn't you speak up yesterday? The day before? Last week?

Besides, Sotty's big post on the last page is worth more than all of Shotty's Day 3+ play combined.

How can you say both this and the statement above? Was the post that good in your eyes?

---

Just so its ultra-clear: If a wagon were to form on Pads high-fives all around.

I can't say I'm not warming up to the idea, although I'm admittedly having trouble following the current argument between you two.

---

fhq and pops not voting before deadline = an unhappy coyote.

Sotty and SttB both had apt time to claim. SttB has downright refused, and Sotty hasn't really addressed the issue. If either of them had something important to tell us, it will rest heavy on their MS conscience for not revealing it when they should have. I would trade outting a Vig for lynching a Vig in a heartbeat.

[RedCoyote]

How can you say both this and the statement above? Was the post that good in your eyes?

Ignore this in the above post.

[SpyreX]

You're here RC. We could do this. We could.

[RedCoyote]

Stay out of my head, Spyrex!

If Pads ends up being scum and you're town, I'm going to listen to you for the rest of time.

[SpyreX]

I can't stay out of your head. Its so warm and fuzzy there.

[SpyreX]

I have to get some sleep. I'll be checking this about an hourish before deadline. I will have time to vote to stop a nolynch.

Thats about it.

We better be at that point.

[RedCoyote]

Well, fhq and pops both said they'll jump on the wagon. If anything drastic happens, I can move to SttB while pouting.

[Pads]

That is exactly what I'm saying. And that seven is better than six. Etc, etc. The relative value of PR's, especially the one we are talking about actually increases as the game goes forward.

We're not talking about relative value of the PR on different days (of course a Vig and Doc's perceptions sharpen, and his likelihood to make a difference improves as the game goes on), we're talking about "If we lynch this claimed PR right now, and he's actually that PR, how much does it cost us for the rest of the game." On Day 1 the risk is universally accepted as not being worth it, because there's still plenty of time to test the claim without resorting to a lynch. On Day 5, without that time buffer, I don't think that play is valid enough to be a foregone conclusion..

If you are saying you were not insinuating that the end result of an uncontested PR claim would be a different lynch well go ahead and confirm by voting yourself.

I am insinuating that the end result of a blanket policy to not lynch uncontested PR's is a different lynch. Shrug. I still feel like I"m missing something.

The hell does that have to do with anything?

You implied that no one had put PR's up on a pedestal, and then I pointed at where you had done just that.

I'm saying I'm not going to push aside a lynch because of a claim. For example, if you claimed vig I would still lynch you because I find your play scummy.

Well, then what the heck is your issue with what I'm talking about? Neither one of us is willing to let an uncountered PR claimant slide without further consideration. If we agree, then why are we arguing?

You're aging me, SpyreX.

The fact that you earlier condemned Shotty in one of your examples for "wanting to out the vig" and "that behavior is anti-town" and then you not voting for Shotty and, in fact, attempting to out him if he was the vig doesn't ring any bells?

Because if he's the vig (which is the possibility I was considering at the time), looking for Hito's attackers doesn't have the same potential to out the vig. It turns what I considered to be a scummy statement into a reasonably justified statement if he was indeed the vig. But it doesn't work if he claims, say, the Doc, because that comment would have still had the potential to out the vig. That's why other power roles wouldn't sway me as much as the vig would have.

But you may be talking about the perception that I changed tone from "outting the vig is bad, m'kay" to, "hey, guy, are you the vig?".

From my perspective, if he's the vig, he had already outted himself. The scum found charter pretty quickly, they clearly know how to look for this stuff.

If Shotty gets lynched and is not scum OR if Scotty gets lynched and is scum I am voting for you and leaving it there for the rest of the game.

Now who's creating false dillemas? The impilcation that this game is down to Sotty and Pads versus SpyreX and Shotty is a conspicuous step beyond 'bad idea'.

What does this mean? I know you are exaggerating, but if you really thought Sotty was that townie why didn't you say so earlier? I don't like this statement at all, not at all. You've said that you've liked my last few posts, if that's the case, how can you think Sotty is as townie as you are? What I'm really hesitating on is how I don't recall you ever giving Sotty a super-townie recommendation before right now, if you were that sure she was town why didn't you speak up yesterday? The day before? Last week?

Fair enough. Indeed, I have not spoken about Sotty much, maybe in the early game, but that's about it. The reason is simple, I had not read into Sotty beyond those quotes other have brought up.. The reason I had not read Sotty extensively is also simple: I haven't seen a reason to. Most of her posts seem reasonable to me, and what of hers has caused me pause has not alarmed me to the point of feeling the need to read her more closely.

That said, I did take a closer look, with the 'aid' of Shotty's PBPA. I posted my analysis of that analysis earlier. I see I didn't post a conclusion there, and I guess I could see how my unvote of Shotty might at first lead someone to think I agree with his case. But I do not. And I think my subsequent play has been clearly in opposition to that case.

Where did I say that I think Sotty is as townie as I am? Do you mean playstyle or in-game read? I don't consider my style to be so townie as to be beyond reproach. Crypto is the only other person whose style I would say is similar to my own. As for in-game read, my town PM read obviously exceeds my in-game read of Sotty on the townie meter.

And it seems like you're implying that if I find a player to be townie, and that player finds another player scummy, even though I find that other player townie, that I've committed some sort of reasoning fail.

[popsofctown]

vote: hiphop

I feel Sotty's lead is comfortable enough atm for me to put my vote where it oughtta be.

And on second though, no lynch actually wouldn't suck that much. it's one vig versus one mafia, and the lynch has a chance of killing/ousting the vig.

[fhqwhgads]

"That's all good, but WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM."

Fair point. It still something I keep in mind though. While your statistics are valid, theres no way for me to assess the motivation behind it.

fhq and/or Spyrex need to get serious about a hiphop wagon if that's what they feel is right, and pops needs to make up his mind.

At the moment, the other cases doesn't seem any more compelling, so

vote: Hiphop

And on second though, no lynch actually wouldn't suck that much. it's one vig versus one mafia, and the lynch has a chance of killing/ousting the vig.

wat

[fhqwhgads]

Seriously, if we're going to make this happen, we need more close to deadline posting [/hypocrite]

[Sotty7]

How many votes am I at now? Three?

Red, no one asked me to claim the last time I was in the thread so saying I haven't addressed the issue is pretty false. It wasn't an issue in the first place and I don't think I have been the wagon leader or at least at lynch -1.

Seeing as the deadline is very soon I will say I'm just a townie. So the lynch on me isn't bad it won't lose the town a PR anyway. The vote hopping so close to the deadline is pretty eye opening. I still think we should be lynching shotty personally but hey.

[zoraster]

Vote Count, Day 5

hiphop ( 2 ) popsofctown fhqwhgads
shotty to the body ( 2 ) Sotty7 Pads
fhqwhgads ( 0 )
Pads ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
RedCoyote ( 1 ) hiphop
Sotty7 ( 3 ) Shotty to the Body RedCoyote SpyreX
SpyreX ( 0 )
Unvote ( 0 )
Total Votes ( 8 )

With 8 alive, 5 needed for a majority.
Deadline is December 23rd, 11am EST