Pick Your Power - Game. Set. Match.

[chamber]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 12

BloodCovenent

- 2 - Pomegranate, Seacore - (L-10)

budja

- 3 - SerialClergyman, Vi, BloodCovenent - (L-9)

Cobalt

- 1 - devotress - (L-11)

devotress

- 2 - Vaya - (L-10)

Dramonic

- 1 - budja - (L-11)

drippinggoofball

- 3 - Cruciare, Faraday, Xylthixlm - (L-9)

elvis_knits

- 1 - chamber - (L-11)

Seacore

- 3 - TonyMontana, Farside22, FishytheFish - (L-9)

Vaya

- 1 - Dramonic - (L-11)

Vi

- 1 - Cobalt - (L-11)

Xylthixlm

- 3 - drippinggoofball, elvis_knits, StrangerCoug - (L-9)

Players not voting: Benmage, Plum

I still like elvis as scum but maybe she'll be cross-killed

Unvote Vote BloodCovenent

He still smells like scum.

[Xylthixlm]

I still like elvis as scum but maybe she'll be cross-killed

Unvote Vote BloodCovenent

He still smells like scum.

Not seeing it.

[elvis_knits]

Hey elvis, do you remember in /in-vitational 4 where everyone I accused of being scum all jumped onto my wagon?

Hey Xyl why you so freaked about dgb voting you?

[Xylthixlm]

Hey elvis, do you remember in /in-vitational 4 where everyone I accused of being scum all jumped onto my wagon?

Hey Xyl why you so freaked about dgb voting you?

Budja needs to vote me too, then I'll have the complete set.

[chamber]

I still like elvis as scum but maybe she'll be cross-killed

Unvote Vote BloodCovenent

He still

smells

like scum.

Not

seeing

it.

I found the problem. You are scum hunting with the wrong sense.

[Fishythefish]

So, lots of people were saying Seacore was town. So I reread him, and they turn out to be right.

unvote, vote: BloodCovenant

[Vi]

Furthermore. Fishy brought up that he was concerned for why Cobalt didn't pick Cop, as it's an obviously broken Town role. I have a similar concern, as Cop is also a good Mafia role. It's not, however, a good SK role.

Seeing as the cop can't detect the SK in this game, I beg to differ. SK can pick cop, produce truthful results, and not worry too much about a lynch. It's an effective safeclaim and encourages the SK to scumhunt.

SK: "hi im a cop with an inno on vi dramonic and seacore"
Scum: <_< >_> *NK*
Other scum: <_< >_> *NK*
SK: oshi--*LOSES*

----

PS: I've been really good this year.

*invokes Lynch All Liars*

Other than that, the only enlightening thing to come out of the Goofball-Xylthixlm-dramonic threesome is that if one of Goofy and Vaya comes up scum, the other one probably is too.
...Regardless of whatever reflexive retort Goofball puts up.

----

The BloodCovenant wagon isn't terrible, although I'm disappointed that Budja is getting out of responding to his wagon just based on his absence.

More variety in who's posting would be nice so we can highlight the obvscumminess of StrangerCoug (for instance).

[Budja]

I'm not absent, just a little overwhelmed.

---

Xyl is a bit scummy (I dislike the word choice thing with DGB) but Dramonic/BC are both a lot better choices.

[Plum]

Reread notes:

- Cobalt is wrong about no town reason to pick Framer.

- I don't see scumminess in Seacore's bad-idea expansion of SC's claiming idea.

- Seacore's VT-massclaim idea is bad, possibly scummier than above suggestion. The best it does, as far as I can see, is limit scum fakeclaim options a bit. The worst it does is EXPOSE MOST TOWN POWERROLES. With three anti-Town kills going out a night, even with scum possibly shooting for crosskills, it basically amounts to giving scum a list of what threats they face and what threats they don't and help them target their biggest threats with greater efficiency. No thanks. Scum forgetting their info by Day 3 is just a

weird

comment.

- Cobalt: your second objection to Seacore's plan I actually disagree with. 1-for-1 trades very rarely favor scum and this game is no exception. If you recall, scumteams are three scumbags apiece. They won't risk that sort of loss of numbers. The plan still has too high a risk-to-reward ratio for it to be at all palatable (and hurts Town enough for me not to raise my eyes at Devotress' vote, though I think she misused the term rolefish). As Vi said, maybe sometime. Not Day 1. Day 1 is scumhunt time and scumhunt time it'll remain.

- Straight policy lynches are ugh. Benmage always does this or what?

- Fishy, the problem with having a bias against going after high-in-the-draft guys is just what you said: there are a bunch of roles extremely helpful to the Town and not so much for scum, but there are roles which conversely are pretty damn useful to scum and not so much as Town. Also it's pretty obvious what Seacore-scum would have done after his massclaim idea went through had that come to pass: make sure to kill the guys outed as most likely to be useful PRs.

- Dramonic. *Headdesk*. Best thing you can do as last-in-the-draft vanilla is hold onto the info and hope to catch a scum lie.

- BC's attack on Devotress for joining the Seacore wagon when she did is

weird

. It's quite quite clear that her

reason

for voting Seacore was new and unrelated to the reasons for the original wagon.

- BC's attack on Vi is similarly weird. Reading Vi's stances on Seacore it seemed like a legit reason to want a wagon on the guy and a pretty decent reason to reconsider said wagon was given by Vi. Calculation was not evident in the proceedings.

- Disagree with DGB that Dram's unprompted VT claim is a clear indication of Townieness. At all.

- Also strongly disagree with DGB's premise for calling Tony scum. I've seen Tony do setup tests before (admittedly he was scum there, but the tests weren't initiated by the scumteam as a whole and it struck me as just a general tendency of his as any alignment in a game suitable for such tests). Secondly: Tony didn't go for Framer; he

almost

did. And he explained a legit pro-Town reason to do so, too. He didn't even choose it, he just put out a reasonably objection to Cobalt's statement that there is no pro-Town reason to try to take Framer. There is. There is also clear scum motivation. It's WIFOM of the sort I can't read. However, there isn't really a pro-Town reason not to speak up about taking it, as far as I can see; if we have one it seems to have gone to someone who'll find it more conventionally useful. EDIT: Yeah, Tony's claim to always do testsetups for kicks matches with my prior knowledge.

- Only when quoted in

Chelseafan

Faraday's post do I notice Devotress' decent point against Seacore, or is my feeling posted yesterday explained in decent wording: Seacore's avoidance of random voting a top drafter looks somewhat like looking Town is his main (not secondary) objective, like a scum mindset.

- Xyl's DGB vote is unexplained.

Cobalt's Tony vote is unexplained and totally wrongminded. I can't tell yet if he's Town clinging to his incorrect theory idea or just opportunistic scum trying to pin Tony on a scumtell which isn't a scumtell at all.

Cobalt's DGB vote is weird. It's true that there's no 'large scumteam' in this game, but it doesn't look indicative of alignment. As scum would certainly be aware of scumteam size, it's not a slip. It looks like DGB-style trashtalk, which by itself is just indicative of, well,

DGB

. Trying to discredit whoever she's arguing against with that sort of thing is typical of her.

- Benmage Post #136 pinged my gutdar.

- TonyMontana's vote on Seacore

did

suck. Vi reminds me of Vi-town I've seen in the post where she says the same. As opposed to Farside's vote, which gives a train of thought to follow which doesn't ring especially scummy.

- Dramonic is himself being useless in the post discussing Seacore's assesment of Cruciare as the same.

- I

have

pinned EK as scum once. Hold on and lemme look it up a sec. She called out a slip which wasn't and then changed the subject when the slipper elborated on why it wasn't a slip. That's how I read her.

- BC's EK vote is the worst of the page 9 wagon. Cobalt isn't a shining tower of goodness himself and such, but BC unvoted Tony with his only explanation being "for now" after Xyl's EK vote. Then after Cobalt, Pom, and Faraday join the wagon in quick succession he votes because "apparently he's scum?" - note the disheartening question mark, which

is

source-in-context.

- Dram's vote is also blah. He can't understand why the wagon but joins it gratefully. Now while I can appreciate his desire to get EK's avatar out of the game (I miss the little doggie too), it smacks of scum joining a wagon while attempting to look less vote-culpable. Pom and Xyl gave a reason for their EK vote. Faraday didn't, though I feel okay about her vote I guess because she's been providing content (? - I try to read why my gut tells me some stuff and sometimes fail, so dunno). Cobalt hasn't looked good and just votes, BC has looked not so awesome and votes with a question mark, Dram has been next to useless and is useless again with his vote and a bit scummy to boot. Dram's excuse for lack of scumhunting makes

my

stomach burn, thank you very much.

- Seacore rings Town by this point. I understand why his anti-town plan suggestions earned him certain votes, but at this point they seem to be merely bad ideas with probable good intentions, not ideas originating from scum.

-

Obviously the inference is that if a random vig will help then a non random kill can help even further.

QFT (did I say so before in my post yesterday?). Pom at least should understand what I'm saying when I say that this was a case for a basic application of the 'Kal V'Chomer' Bible-and-Talmudic exegesis principle.

This

was something concretely scummy of EK; I
ll have to take everyone else's word on EK not looking town = EK scum . . . wait, I do recall her saying that she hates playing scum and thinks she does look noticeably different as scum. So this line of incrimination seems validated by her own tongue. +1. Disagree that he's trying to press random kills as acceptable Vig kills or whatnot.

- Budja's posting feels . . .

weak

- Cruciare finally explains what he has against BC (I can see it). And then he does something I hate, Day 1 scumteam speculation, when it's least helpful and most counterproductive. I understand where he's coming from, so plus points for that. Seacore also is basing the wagon on speculation of a specific case of bussing I just don't see as definitive.

- Aww, how cute, Pom reads Town to me.

- DGB:

The reality is that elvis would not be a top choice of her buddies to bus. ESPECIALLY if scum, at the top of the order. She'd be way too useful. Yeah, WIFOM. But I doubt it in this instance.

However a townie at the top of the order is an excellent wagon to pursue and get a free claim from.

Or scum B EK could be being attacked by scum Bs who want to get at anyone at the top of the draft order. But yeah, either way opportunistic scum would see a lot more opportunity in a top drafter. Some votes on EK were good, reasonable, whatever. Some were awfully scummy, as noted above.

- EK, re your accusation on Sea: He was only not going after top drafters in his RVS vote. That's weird/sketchy, fine, but has nothing to do with how he views the serious stage of the game. Though his claim to have forgotten about the draft altogether when he was so foused on it at earlier points is

also

sketchy, and then again his reason and explanation scream honest if occasionally inept Townie. Gragh.

- Cobalt, if you're town you'll stop trying to act unreadable for the sake of being unreadable. If you're scum, yes well.

- Coug, what specifically did you find scummy about Dram's illogical (to paraphrase you) attempt to get rid of EK's avatar? Scum gut here, this may be part of it, more when Coug responds.

- Vi, I suppose your interesting theory about Cobalt's role choice isn't worth sharing at the moment? You piqued my interest .

It was worth the piqued interest.

- Pom is totally correct in saying that acknowledging that something looks scummy doesn't make it less scummy (sometimes I feel it makes it look more scummy). Im looking at you, BC, obv.

- Budja is

again

extremely wishy-washy. Why am I not surprised?

-

Okay, derail over, commence lynching Budja/Coug/Xylthixlm/Devotress/Vaya/maybe SerialClergyman and BloodCovenant/etc.

I could go for a Cobalt wagon today. Cop is one thing; she's probably dead soon without our help and the worst that'll come is she lives another day or two and gives us lies for investigations we'll be looking at with suspicion anyway; and she may give us useful stuff before she goes if we're lucky. If Cobalt is where-what we think he is the risks are much greater.

-

Seeing as the cop can't detect the SK in this game, I beg to differ. SK can pick cop, produce truthful results, and not worry too much about a lynch. It's an effective safeclaim and encourages the SK to scumhunt.

Yeah but it also encourages SK death so it

isn't

a very effective SK claim so it isn't an effective SK pick like Vig or Bulletproof. EDIT: Vi put it more colorfully than I did.

-

In another line of thinking, I'm uneasy about Cobalt. I played with him in another game where he was scum and he was much more protown than that :S

You think he's one of those players who acts more pro-town as scum than Town? Um, proof/backup? I'm interested.

-

I say we lynch Vaya.

It'll help enlighten connections between her and DGB
AND I dont want a DV in endgame.

Vote: Vaya

I don't know, y'all but I read that as "I've gotten no vibes from Vaya because he's not posted, and from the others on the list none of the vibes I've gotten were Townie-vibes". Which is fairly reasonable. I'm not sure if Xyl's case is scummy nanotube-pulling or just a really weird angle which I can't see as possibly profitable scumhunting. Dram seems to be grabbing onto Xyl's case with a weird ferocity and unpleasant logic.

Dram, I do not lynch for connections ON DAY 1. Certainly not for connections so tenuous as that. Coug is dishearteningly fail as well. I'm seeing neither DGB-scum nor Xyl-scum out of this, though I admit I am unconfident in my ability to really read DGB. Xyl does policy lynches and I'm against straight policy lynches, including policy lynches on policy lynchers. Including policy lynchers whom I currently read as Town.

- Budja's latest post is AGAIN scummily wishy-washy. Duh duh duh DUUUUNNNNN.

All the wagons on players I find scummy are populated by scummish or shady players and all the players I feel are town are on wagons I wouldn't want to vote ('cept BC, but he's not a top-tier scumpick). I could go for Budja or Cobalt (guess it looks like the latter won't be happening today at all) or Dram or maaaaybe BC or Coug. Budja has the biggest wagon of the lot and Vi is there so it's probably the best place to start.

Vote: Budja

[Cobalt]

super protown scumhunting cobalt has found scum in benmage's lurkiness and voting a claimed cop

unvote vote benmage

fun fact- his vote on elvis was his only vote aside from a policy vote for chamber in his first post

[Devotress]

Actually I'm curious about benmage now too. I just read through his posts because of cobalt bringing him up up there.


What changed between you saying

I'd vote devotress, but i like to hold off until i'm not behind in a game.

And then a few posts later

Okay, unvote vote elvis_k.

Only on page 7 in mah read thru, hope theres a case on her.

What was so much better about voting for EK despite being behind, compared to voting for me despite being behind? Ek had a larger wagon to join in on?

unvote

Vote Benmagep

[Cruciare]

Right. Not in the mood to do a proper post. Just gonna rate the existing wagons out of four. One star is 'I oppose this wagon' (Cobalt would be under this category). Two stars is 'I wouldn't join this wagon, but I wouldn't cry if it went ahead'. Three stars is 'I would join this wagon'. Four stars is 'I fully support and endorse this wagon, why the hell aren't you on it'.

Benmage

?

No idea. Needs to post more.

BloodCovenent

Opportunistic wagonhopper. Not quite four stars because his defense looked honest. Still scummy nonetheless.

Budja

Vi made some good calls about him, but I don't really get the grand level of suspicion on him. Someone mind explaining?

Devotress

Something fishy about her play, can't put my finger on it. Not seeing the obvscum most of you are though.

dramonic

His vote on the Elvis wagon was weird, but otherwise hasn't done anything worthy of lynch as far as I can see.

DrippingGoofball

Elvis' scumbuddy, substitutionary lynch for Elvis. Poor logic, hypocrisy, hey I've said all this before. Let's add proof by assertion.

Seacore

Bad ideas early on with the claiming, some (okay more than some) wagonhopping, but some town vibes.

Vaya

?

No idea. Needs to post more. Also, doublevoter.

Xylthixlm

Wagonhopper, specifically the 'leaving a wagon once circumstances become inconvenient' part. Fishy play, scum vibes.

StrangerCoug

This guy doesn't actually have a wagon on him yet, but he deserves a special honorary mention for being scum.

Also, I will be on V/LA (zero access) until Wednesday. I hope to see 11/12 votes on either DGB or Coug or Blood or Xyl or Elvis again by that point. *Waves*

[Budja]

@Plum, Budja-weak = Budja-lost/confused not Budja-scum.
Now a reread to rectify that.

[Budja]

Ok, I looked at the past couple of pages.

I agree with DGB 421/422. I disagree with Xyl.
Vi 424 makes a good point about Cobalts OMGUS against Fishy. Not really so townie . I think this will solve itself, not for a Cobalt lynch.

Devotress's recent vote/posting seems more town-motivated. I think I feel a bit like Crucaire on this. A little gut-scummy but posts seem reasonable. Not a good lynch.

DGB is not scum any more. I'm liking her recent posts.

@Xyl 451, I still don't get the reasons behind the EK wagon, but I don't think she reacted well but the claim felt townie. That is what I meant.

Xyl's attack of DGB is overplaying a null tell on word-choice. Still dislike this. On a reread Xyl is promoted to scum #3.

In post 455, Dram explains why he is scum #1.

Iffy on SC. Seems like his regular play to me.

And BC is still #2 fyi.

[DrippingGoofball]

OK Plum is town.

Disagree with DGB that Dram's unprompted VT claim is a clear indication of Townieness. At all.

I also disagree with myself. Seeing that he's at the bottom of the draft order nullifies that standard town-tell of mine. Besides his later contributions as scummy as all hell.

Also strongly disagree with DGB's premise for calling Tony scum. I've seen Tony do setup tests before (admittedly he was scum there, but the tests weren't initiated by the scumteam as a whole and it struck me as just a general tendency of his as any alignment in a game suitable for such tests).

Point taken. I didn't know that.

Plum, your elvis scumtell having her call out a supposed slip - does that not remind you of Xyl?

[StrangerCoug]

- Coug, what specifically did you find scummy about Dram's illogical (to paraphrase you) attempt to get rid of EK's avatar? Scum gut here, this may be part of it, more when Coug responds.

It comes off as if dramonic thinks EK is scum because of the avatar, which is a null tell. I don't come on this site to look at scantily-clad women either, but I don't judge people's scumminess by their avatars. It's kind of hard to win that way.

-

Seeing as the cop can't detect the SK in this game, I beg to differ. SK can pick cop, produce truthful results, and not worry too much about a lynch. It's an effective safeclaim and encourages the SK to scumhunt.

Yeah but it also encourages SK death so it

isn't

a very effective SK claim so it isn't an effective SK pick like Vig or Bulletproof. EDIT: Vi put it more colorfully than I did.

So are you arguing that it's a bad of an idea for an SK to claim cop as to claim vig?

Iffy on SC. Seems like his regular play to me.

Which one of us?

[Pomegranate]

- Coug, what specifically did you find scummy about Dram's illogical (to paraphrase you) attempt to get rid of EK's avatar? Scum gut here, this may be part of it, more when Coug responds.

It comes off as if dramonic thinks EK is scum because of the avatar, which is a null tell. I don't come on this site to look at scantily-clad women either, but I don't judge people's scumminess by their avatars. It's kind of hard to win that way.

I thought it was obvious that his mention of the avatar was a joke, not a reason for his vote. It may have been somewhat misplaced, but I didn't find it joke particularly scummy- dramonic often votes without reason, if I recall his meta correctly. Other parts of his play have been a bit scummy, but not this.

[Xylthixlm]

I agree with DGB 421/422. I disagree with Xyl.

Hmm, is my grasp of conversational implicature broken?

Oh wait that's Budja. Carry on.

[Benmage]

I'm back, but still busy. Have a lot to catchup on.

[Benmage]

super protown scumhunting cobalt has found scum in benmage's lurkiness and voting a claimed cop

unvote vote benmage

fun fact- his vote on elvis was his only vote aside from a policy vote for chamber in his first post

Geeze, can you be more opportunistic? I said I was V/LA.

[Benmage]

Actually I'm curious about benmage now too. I just read through his posts because of cobalt bringing him up up there.


What changed between you saying

I'd vote devotress, but i like to hold off until i'm not behind in a game.

And then a few posts later

Okay, unvote vote elvis_k.

Only on page 7 in mah read thru, hope theres a case on her.

What was so much better about voting for EK despite being behind, compared to voting for me despite being behind? Ek had a larger wagon to join in on?

unvote

Vote Benmagep

I wanted EK lynched. So since i was going away, i wanted to help the game see her lynched.

[chamber]

Actually I'm curious about benmage now too. I just read through his posts because of cobalt bringing him up up there.


What changed between you saying

I'd vote devotress, but i like to hold off until i'm not behind in a game.

And then a few posts later

Okay, unvote vote elvis_k.

Only on page 7 in mah read thru, hope theres a case on her.

What was so much better about voting for EK despite being behind, compared to voting for me despite being behind? Ek had a larger wagon to join in on?

unvote

Vote Benmagep

I wanted EK lynched. So since i was going away, i wanted to help the game see her lynched.

Now that you are back, and have presumably read the thread ,who do you currently find scummy?

[Seacore]

I'm back, and having a brief catchup haven't seen much to change my mind

My scum targets are Brudja, BC and Dramonic more than anybody else. So I'll leave my vote where it is and clearly state that I'm prepared to hammer on any of them should the opportunity pressent itself.

It's also interesting that Cruc left Vi and Elvis off the star list, (and added StrangerCoug, but that bit's not that interesting)

[Seacore]

All the wagons on players I find scummy are populated by scummish or shady players and all the players I feel are town are on wagons I wouldn't want to vote ('cept BC, but he's not a top-tier scumpick).

I don't think wagons with probable scum on them are necessarily bad, remembering that they are also scum hunting (and scum hunting significantly more info than us)

[Fishythefish]

I'm not looking forward to catching up with this game after I miss the next few days.

- Fishy, the problem with having a bias against going after high-in-the-draft guys is just what you said: there are a bunch of roles extremely helpful to the Town and not so much for scum, but there are roles which conversely are pretty damn useful to scum and not so much as Town. Also it's pretty obvious what Seacore-scum would have done after his massclaim idea went through had that come to pass: make sure to kill the guys outed as most likely to be useful PRs.

I disagree somewhat. I think that the roles of cop, tracker, watcher, bomb and are all more useful than any scum role.

Maybe we should be directing the vig, and promising to lynch the vig if they don't follow orders (unless we tell them to kill themselves)? I for one am completely petrified of an empowered-double-killing-vig-scum. And fakeclaims are difficult high in the draft (where the vig is likely to be), so very likely our orders would be followed. Most obvious con is mafia doctor or jailkeeper, but I see those as relatively unlikely (unlike mafia vig).

On who is scum: I'm finding the Xyl/DBG interaction very difficult to get a handle on. I've got no clear read on either atm. I like my BC vote, because he is scum. I have no objections to a Budja wagon either.

I don't think wagons with probable scum on them are necessarily bad, remembering that they are also scum hunting (and scum hunting significantly more info than us)

It's true that they're scumhunting. But their info is exclusively about not lynching their own team. So it's going to be monumentally unhelpful for us.