Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[SerialClergyman]

*dies a little inside*

If you think the whole me + elvis vs SB + DN thing is an elaborate bus, you are so skeptical that you will never be able to come to a decision on anything, in my opinion. This automatic distrust of anyone who suggests anythign to advance the game - how does that work out in the long run? Do you think people suggesting radical action are more likely to be scum gambiting or town ruminating?

If I put my own arse on the line and make this deal, I deserve some credit for being right about DN and I am cashing that credit in by asking for a second bite at an imprint, an imprint for the person I think is most likely town and a lynch for the person I think is scum with DN. You should want this stuff too if DN is indeed scum, because it'd be very unlikely I was scum, very unliekly elvis is scum and strongly likely SB is scum.

But aside from all that, the biggest criticisms of elvis I can see is her 'overreaction' to DN, which of course she can be clared of if he's scum, and her buddying/clearing of me, which again is supported by a DN scumflip.

[TheButtonmen]

*dies a little inside*

If you think the whole me + elvis vs SB + DN thing is an elaborate bus, you are so skeptical that you will never be able to come to a decision on anything, in my opinion. This automatic distrust of anyone who suggests anythign to advance the game

A) It isn't elabrate at all, bussing Death note isn't that hard do and you scum have a day time quick topic.
B) I seem to have come to a decsion on something quite fine.

[SerialClergyman]

Making a snap decision to bus deathnote - that may have been possible.

But having been against Deathnote and SB with massive walls, being the forerunner in the push against SB and him - what sort of scum team goes out of it's way to push a case heavily on one of it's members from the start of the day?

Ok - different plan. Lynch me, imprint elvis. If I flip scum, lynch elvis. That would only cost you 1 day with imprinted scum. If I flip town, lynch Starbuck or Deathnote and imprint elvis again.

How does that one sound?

[xRECKONERx]

You wouldn't agree to imprint me knowing I'd only have the chance to use it once if dn is town, even if I was scum?

No, because I

hate

"Lynch this person, then lynch me based on their flip!" strategies.

I say we either lynch DN + imprint 2 people, or no lynch + imprint 3.

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #8=-

Nevada (4) - Virginia, Georgia, Montana, Iowa
Alaska (2) - Colorado, Hawaii
Virginia (1) - Arizona
Arizona (1) - Alaska
Iowa (1) - Ohio

Not Voting (3) - Florida, Kansas, Nevada

7 to lynch.

-=Imprint Count #8=-

Ohio (5) - Nevada, Florida, Arizona, Ohio, Iowa
Alaska (3) - Alaska, Nevada, Virginia
Florida (3) - Nevada, Florida, Ohio
Hawaii (3) - Nevada, Arizona, Iowa
Virginia (2) - Alaska, Virginia
Colorado (2) - Nevada, Ohio
Montana (2) - Nevada, Ohio
Georgia (2) - Nevada, Georgia
Iowa (2) - Arizona, Iowa
Arizona (1) - Nevada
Kansas (1) - Nevada
Nevada (1) - Nevada

7 to imprint.

fine i'll cave to peer pressure have a darn cheat sheet grumble grumble

ALASKA = SerialClergyman
ARIZONA = Starbuck
COLORADO = Messiah
FLORIDA = Limerickx
GEORGIA = Plum
HAWAII = TheButtonmen
IOWA = xRECKONERx
KANSAS = farside22
MONTANA = Pug89
NEVADA = DeathNote
OHIO = Vala Mal Doran
VIRGINIA = elvis_knits

[SerialClergyman]

What has changed since you supported the idea that imprinting was more dangerous than lynching?

[SerialClergyman]

And while I'm at it, why do none of your proposed plans involve lynching the person you feel is most likely scum?

[xRECKONERx]

What? I said we either lynch DN and imprint two people or no lynch and imprint three. I think we'll probably gain MORE information off of imprinting than a lynch, even if it is riskier.

[SerialClergyman]

Wow, disregard both of those. I'm posting from my phone and didn't realise that came from reck instead of button. My bad.

[TheButtonmen]

fine i'll cave to peer pressure have a darn cheat sheet grumble grumble

Thank you.

[SerialClergyman]

Who would you mprint if we lynched DN?

[Messiah]

If I flip town, lynch Starbuck or Deathnote and imprint elvis again.

Why should we imprint elvis if you flip town?

[xRECKONERx]

SC, I'd imprint myself, Messiah, VMD, or Plum. Any combination of the two with a DN lynch.

[farside22]

I feel SC miss's the point entirely here:

Quote:
You know elvis, all of what you say is coming from someone who's trying to pass herself and SC off as confirmed because you misunderstood a rule.


That's a terrible post. ANYTHING elvis says is coming from that position - do you feel it's enough to discredit any argument she makes about anythign from now to the end of the game?

EK confirms you as town because of thinking scum had a NK. As pointed out unless you ask as scum about this point you don't know whether you have a NK or not as not all mod's are always clear in there role description that a kill is part of the deal.

post 231 I will say a lot of this is WIFOM but some isn't but I will be happy to answer this
1) I think one of you is scum based on my read
2) you could it would be easy to explain later but it's a trail and hard to say if scum would do this but again I don't like random imprints from people
3) meh? I would like this rephrased
4) he does and there is no reason for scum to not realize this as I showed
5) what?
6) what?

5 and 6 don't make sense I think it's questions on the future of the game which leads to WIFOM then.
Just for clarification:

Basically theres a whole lot a scum and not that many town, thus voting is tilted in scum favour, so by randomizing we remove that. Now if we randomly chose a player day 1 and repeatedly imprint them and vote NL until they find scum we have a 66% of winning right now and honestly with a 2-1 town to scum ratio that's a hell of a lot better win % then playing the game straight up.

This is wrong. And scummy.

There are 4 scum and 8 town. You're making it sound like town is in the minority. We are twice as strong at the scum right now.

What I would like to know reading back again between these 2 post why you focused just on the odds that button mentions and not the idea? He does say 2-1 in town favor so I'm not sure how you come up with this post in the first place.

Well, when I thought buttonman was misrepping the town's influence (ie, saying there is a lot of scum and not many town sounds like we are in the minority, which is not true), I thought he was scummy.


But I think he is actually trying to win the game (through breaking the game). So that's not scummy.

VMD: post 249 you are voting for EK who you state is probably town and your calling jason probably scum because he has not posted? Did you look to see if he posted elsewhere or if he was simply a no show or anything when compiling this list. Also nice and quick imprint of self after asking many times why people are doing and saying it seems scummy.


based on the game brake talk

imprint: TheBUttonmen

bah reading SC post about EK in 215 I get the impression he is just impressed with EK and ignoring things that he shouldn't.

VMD: There are exactly four people who I feel are not posting enough: lewarcher, Jason, DN, and Plum. That's enough to make up a scumteam of people lazing around drinking margaritas while town beats up town.

scum don't post or is this almost the evilant of lynching lurkers in this post that leaves a bad taste especially as not too long ago she was saying Plum was town.

i have to agree with post 259 about lew from pug

And on that note, if I didn't already know DN's meta is to post very curtly and anti-townly like this, I would have buried him ages ago. If you can prove to me that you always sit back like this no matter your alignment, lewarcher, then I will cut you some slack, otherwise post moar or die.

meta is really overrated. Judging by one game or multiple games does DN act like this no matter his alignment?

POST: 278 from EK: someone did comment on it and you ignored it. Why do you feel so strongly that it needs to be answered? As a townie who has no information on who is town or scum would you not question the budding going on between two players as you and SC have done?

post 284: I really dislike people who call a post good because it agrees with their theories and comments. Basically my big issue with SC is he has called 2 people scum for disagree with EK and him on their actions. Just a pev

post 292: yeah lets all high 5 each other for agreeing with EK. Again just feels like someone giving a person protown because they agreed with you.

Some of the other reactions I got from people have not seemed pro-town. They have seemed like panicked attempts to stop the town from confirming two town players.

Okay now that I pointed out the role and how it was written to the scum and how scum mods do not automatically put in their role PM's that scum have a kill between them how do you figure this clears you and SC?

Thank you reck for pointing out the same thing I saw!

This stuff about people being semi-cleared because they "didn't understand the setup" is complete bullshit. I read the rules, but even I glazed over the fact that scum lacked a night kill. I read the sample PMs, and I still didn't get it. It wasn't until the Mod clarified that I finally realized it. It's a null-tell. Trying to push it as a town-tell is a slight-scum-tell, though.

OMG post is so what I'm thinking I want to imprint: recknor

@Reckoner: Why the voted on DN? Why the IGMEOY to TheButtonmen who you did imprint?

@SC post 311 ah I read that incorrectly I realize now it was worded oddly.

I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis.

HELL NO!!!!

You wouldn't agree to imprint me knowing I'd only have the chance to use it once if dn is town, even if I was scum?

You could lie about what your PR is. We don't know what the imprint is that your getting and right now my trust in your or EK is lacking. Mind you if you lie then we lynch you and I would only agree to give you an imprint if we did a no lynch that is how little I trust either you or EK

TheButtonmen: post 320 umm town gets the imprint only for the night

SC post 321: how doe DN turning up town make you scum exactly? This post confuses me.

TheButtonmen: pst 323 is the man!

SC: 325 AtE much. Umm lets see DN comes up scum you are saying your town what else is a person to think reading that? Saying that only you and EK should get an imprint when most find suspion on EK means you are ignoring the majority. Pfft you miss the point of clearning you and her is a null tell I see


But aside from all that, the biggest criticisms of elvis I can see is her 'overreaction' to DN, which of course she can be clared of if he's scum, and her buddying/clearing of me, which again is supported by a DN scumflip

Again I don't see how DN flip clears you and EK.


SC: Why are you protecting EK? I mean I really want to understand why you are so sure she is town.



Some of the other reactions I got from people have not seemed pro-town. They have seemed like panicked attempts to stop the town from confirming two town players.

Okay now that I pointed out the role and how it was written to the scum and how scum mods do not automatically put in their role PM's that scum have a kill between them how do you figure this clears you and SC?

Thank you reck for pointing out the same thing I saw!

This stuff about people being semi-cleared because they "didn't understand the setup" is complete bullshit. I read the rules, but even I glazed over the fact that scum lacked a night kill. I read the sample PMs, and I still didn't get it. It wasn't until the Mod clarified that I finally realized it. It's a null-tell. Trying to push it as a town-tell is a slight-scum-tell, though.

OMG post is so what I'm thinking I want to

imprint: recknor

@Reckoner: Why the voted on DN? Why the IGMEOY to TheButtonmen who you did imprint?

@SC post 311 ah I read that incorrectly I realize now it was worded oddly.

[quote="sc"I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis. [/quote]

HELL NO!!!!

You wouldn't agree to imprint me knowing I'd only have the chance to use it once if dn is town, even if I was scum?

You could lie about what your PR is. We don't know what the imprint is that your getting and right now my trust in your or EK is lacking. Mind you if you lie then we lynch you and I would only agree to give you an imprint if we did a no lynch that is how little I trust either you or EK

TheButtonmen: post 320 umm town gets the imprint only for the night

SC post 321: how does DN turning up town make you scum exactly? This post confuses me.

TheButtonmen: pst 323 is the man!

SC: 325 AtE much. Umm lets see DN comes up scum you are saying your town what else is a person to think reading that? Saying that only you and EK should get an imprint when most find suspicion on EK means you are ignoring the majority. Pfft you miss the point of clearing you and her is a null tell I see

But aside from all that, the biggest criticisms of elvis I can see is her 'overreaction' to DN, which of course she can be clared of if he's scum, and her buddying/clearing of me, which again is supported by a DN scumflip

Again I don't see how DN flip clears you and EK.


SC: Why are you protecting EK? I mean I really want to understand why you are so sure she is town.

Finally I can't say vala is on my town list. I see a few discrepancies from here that bother me.

I think have 2 people imprinted or 3 imprinted with a no lynch is best too.

vote: EK

[xRECKONERx]

@Reckoner: Why the voted on DN? Why the IGMEOY to TheButtonmen who you did imprint?

Because, as I stated, I think by imprinting both VMD and Button, we'll gain valuable information. I think at least one of them is town (VMD), so I think Button being imprinted can give us some information regarding his alignment.

[SerialClergyman]

Farside - reactions to my suggestion that you lynch me and if I flip town imprint elvis and vote DN?

[farside22]

Farside - reactions to my suggestion that you lynch me and if I flip town imprint elvis and vote DN?

I think you are putting too much stock into believing elvis is town were I don't see this as EK town read so far.
Then I have that sick thought that you are trying to use this a ploy as scum you may not be partner with EK and hope it will lynch town tomorrow. Call this lack of trust in either of you. As I said reading both of you I feel one is scum and EK is who I lean as scum in this case over you.

[Plum]

Where was I? Oh damn . . . page 9.

It may be a way of getting is partners (if he is scum) closer to being imprinted without overtly being shown to support them if he gets lynched later.

Excellent point. I shudder.

If we could be sure we were giving imprints only to Townies I

might

be down with not lynching (but by that point we'd have exceptionally good base odds for lynching scum anyway). That's not the case and I doubt it will be; even though I'm not as hostile towards EK's attempt to confirm/semi herself and SC I'm not convinced enough to say other than it raises their likelihoods of being Town not insubstantially, which isn't the same. Otherwise we may well be handing the scum something useful (and even if it's not an NK I'm pretty sure our gracious Mod has something up his sleeve useful for a scumbag) for Night 1 before taking our stab. There is no good reason to dismiss the usual reasoning for why we don't no-Lynch Day 1 in general.

For the record, would you go over exactly how you think elvis and my scheme went down if we were scum? Why didn't elvis choose a scum mate who hadn't imprinted her in his first post of the day? When was the plan hatched? Why didn't I imprint more than just one of my scumbuddies? Why didn't I answer her question the first time?

This line of questioning doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than to make starbuck appear scummy through no fault of her own.

That line of questioning looked like it served a purpose: making clear that on the road of the SC/EK gambitting scumbuddies theory there are significant pot holes. I don't see how it was intended merely to make Starbuck look scummy (and it had a reasonable prompt: Starbuck indicated that she put weight to the theory and SC responded with points in the form of rhetorical questioning). This certainly was a weird vote on SC in that case, Messiah.

I understand that, and I don't think that people who want to lynch today are wrong for saying so, but I guess that I just feel, with scum 100% not having a kill as of this very moment, tomorrow is just sort of an extension of today. If we imprint and don't lynch, today+tomorrow is basically one long day in my eyes, only with the added information that comes from knowing what sort of imprints are out there, and anything else we might learn from what is revealed during the night phase. Maybe there are mechanics we don't know about. For example, being FORCED to use the imprints you get would fit with the premise of the show.

Exactly. Or, even more probably, there are imprints the scum would feel relatively safe using if they got them tonight which are still helpful to them. I discussed this above, I think.

SC's case on Starbuck seems stronger when he discusses it than when I go back to see his points; frankly, I don't see enough outright defense of DN by Starbuck that the null-ish read she gets on him is really off balance. Other stuff she's done - like misrepping EK right after EK explained what had actually been going down - are stronger points against her. SC's case is also one which relies strongly on connections and it's Day 1, meaning we have very little info to go on as to who is actually scum or Town a player can be seen to be connected with - it's conjecture, sometimes stronger/more likely than others. I simply didn't see her opening post containing such an underhanded defense of DN - not enough to warrant the 'negative-but-not-too-negative' thing something scummy enough to look unless DN dies and flips scum. Similar to Messiah's feeling on this particular point, I guess, except that I don't find it really scummy of SC, don't think it's strong enough to call as a likely intentional scum twist of Starbuck's words. And Messiah's attack on SC's reasonable response to Starbuck still has me frowning.

VMD, I notice that you found all the active people (as of Saturday) somewhat to very Town and everyone else somewhere between neutral and scummy. I see you had a case on Lewarcher, one of the low-activities, and a decent pretty decent case at that. But you had only one other person down as actually scummy (one who hadn't posted at all) and then only one at dead-neutral (DN, for anti-Town meta. And if I have to ask, do you plan to get a read on him at all or are you going to just let him sit there all game and smell up the room like dead fish, so to speak (and no, DN, I don't mean to compare you to rotting fish; my idioms occasionally run away from me). And all of the actives looked town. This isn't scummy, per se, just . . . odd. This scumhunting wants either refinement or a wider net.

Though I must say that Lew's follow-up post wasn't heartening at all. It's certainly not more content. Okay, then. And Heh, he actually

does

find content in those pages he initially skipped after all. Will you look at that.

So, it's page 12 and nobody has more than 2 votes toward a lynch, and I don't think we've gotten a decent bandwagon going all game. I don't know what most people think on the idea of lynching vs. no-lynching, or if we should imprint or not and who/how many.

/wrists

Yes lynching, yes limited imprinting. How many? Certainly less than five, probably more than one. The number in between which we choose should depend on how many players we find Town-enough to go for it. If we have more than three our criteria are probably not strict enough, and if we have more than four that's

definitely

the case.

Pug: You may be right. I'm willing to conjecture this: If we give scum an imprint, even if they don't get an NK ability and use it, it will probably be something they can use and it will probably be bad for us even if it's not an NK.

Note to self: don't laze around all day and then start responding to this game at 11 pm, especially when you still have leftover pages to respond to.

Farside, what don't you like about EK saying that in the case of a broken, extremely tedious strategy she'd replace out? I don't exactly get it; it seems like a null and normal reaction to me.

Why should my meta not be consistent? People are too use to conformity on this site and policy lynch any suggestions that are different from what they are used too. I am one who believes and fresh ideas and radical thinking so try to take that into consideration before kill me off. (goes for every game)

My vote on you is not policy. I have a policy about policy lynnches such that I'd rarely participate in what is thought of as a policy lynch, and even then would probably need other indicators that the lynchee had an above-average chance of being scum. You have displayed legitimate scumtells here, and not just the sort you dropped in Border of Touhou (which is good because that ticked me off <3). You've misrepped EK and created a false dichotomy and claimed to have realized your original plan was bad because it would give scum the NKs they don't automatically get but still continues to advocate it and play by it yourself.

How is that a policy lynch?

Because I know how this will turn out. My tactic right now is called, appeal to emotion.

Why? You were at what, 2 votes here? I recapped my thoughts in you above, and this sort of AtE backfired before you clarified it as AtE (thanks, now I know you're desperately trying to manipulate me as well).

I think we can gain valuable information from the two of them being power roles. The way I see it, they can't both be scum, so in my mind I'm imprinting one guaranteed (imo) townie, possibly two.

While I approve of you trying not to give two imprints to scum, we really can't afford to do things that way. We can't look at us scoring as many Townies as possible; we need to shoot for no scum while still getting a it of imprinting done. You've just voted to imprint someone you have your eye on - someone you feel is below neutral, which is bad. I am, however, now thinking of Elvis as Grandma. Look what you've done now, Reck.

DN's rolling over and dying is tainted with the policy-lynch lie/appeal. Please stop, kthx.

More soon.

[TheButtonmen]

@ Plum,

Heh if it makes it easier I'm sure you would be forgiven one nontextwall post.

[SerialClergyman]

M'okay.

The town feeling around here is what I'd regard as pro-scum but it's too hard to tell who is paranoid and who is scum. I'm pretty sure it's because we are starting with such a large group of scum.

I disgree with a multitude of theory stuff from a lot of players, but particularly the arguments:
a) That an argument should be judged based on who broughti t up,
b) That one should not defend someone one thinks is town
c) That we can't afford to group players.
d) Use of WIFOM and OMGUS.

For anyone thinking I'm scummy for defending elvis, defending my town reads is a BIG part of my game. That's easily evidenced by most if not all of the games you can check out in my wiki. I don't know what the point of having a town read is if you aren't prepared to back it.

Doubly so given I know I am town, so for elvis to be scum involves her undertaking all of this to clear a townie. I know that this doesn't help you guys as much because you DON'T know I'm town, but it might help explain why I feel as strongly as I do that she is town.

I don't understand the reasoning that says it's likely one of elvis and me are town. I actually think those that feel we are scum togeher have a more cogent and logical view of the game. I also particularly don't like it when people say that they hate pairing alignments (what makes elvis scum if you're town etc) but at the same time are prepared to say that one of us are scum (so presumably, it's ok to say if you're town she is scum.) It's not logically consistent.

SO we're left with not enough nooses, but this is not a bad thing given how many scum are around.

I would like everyone to reply to my suggestion about lynching me and then having a course of action after that - whether you think it's a good idea, a bad idea, whether you're prepared to do it or not.

[Messiah]

The town feeling around here is what I'd regard as pro-scum

Because everyone who disagrees with you is pro-scum, right?

b) That one should not defend someone one thinks is town

Did anyone actually say that?

I would like everyone to reply to my suggestion about lynching me and then having a course of action after that - whether you think it's a good idea, a bad idea, whether you're prepared to do it or not.

Your plan is pretty much terrible because your flipping town doesn't make Starbuck/DN scum or confirm ek as town, nor would your flipping scum make ek automatically be scum either. Do you honestly think that way?

[xRECKONERx]

@Plum: how many imprints would you give between 1-5, and who are your imprint candidates at the moment?

Actually, let's make that question @EVERYONE.

[Messiah]

@Reck: 2-3, VMD/Buttonmen/Myself

[xRECKONERx]

Why Buttonmen?

[Messiah]

Why Buttonmen?

I didn't get any fake or contrived feelings from his break-the-game posts.

Your plan is pretty much terrible because your flipping town doesn't make Starbuck/DN scum or confirm ek as town, nor would your flipping scum make ek automatically be scum either. Do you honestly think that way?

I should add that I'm not talking in just definites here, I don't see why it would make any of those distinctly more likely either.