Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[elvis_knits]

How is that a policy lynch?

Because I know how this will turn out. My tactic right now is called, appeal to emotion.

You realize that's a scum tactic, right?

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... to_emotion

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #7=-

Alaska (2) - Iowa, Colorado
Nevada (2) - Virginia, Georgia
Virginia (1) - Arizona
Arizona (1) - Alaska
Iowa (1) - Ohio

Not Voting (5) - Florida, Kansas, Montana, Nevada, Hawaii

7 to lynch.

-=Imprint Count #7=-

Ohio (4) - Nevada, Florida, Arizona, Ohio
Alaska (3) - Alaska, Nevada, Virginia
Hawaii (3) - Nevada, Iowa, Arizona
Florida (3) - Nevada, Florida, Ohio
Iowa (2) - Iowa, Arizona
Virginia (2) - Alaska, Virginia
Arizona (2) - Nevada, Iowa
Colorado (2) - Nevada, Ohio
Montana (2) - Nevada, Ohio
Georgia (2) - Nevada, Georgia
Kansas (1) - Nevada
Nevada (1) - Nevada

7 to imprint.

[TheButtonmen]

How is that a policy lynch?

Because I know how this will turn out. My tactic right now is called, appeal to emotion.

If we lynched you and your really not helping your case with comments like that. It would be because you did / said things that were felt to be scummy. That's not a policy lynch....

[Starbuck]

Just a heads up, today is my last day in Connecticut and I fly back to Sicily tomorrow. I will be back to Sicily sometime in the afternoon on Wednesday and I should have a substantial post then.

[elvis_knits]

mod, in the VC's, could you just post the cheat sheet matching the players with their doll name, because it's hard for me to remember who is who in the votecounts?

[Pug89]

How is that a policy lynch?

Because I know how this will turn out. My tactic right now is called, appeal to emotion.

I was leaning this way already but this is enough to make me

Vote: DeathNote

. It is clear he wants to imprint as many people as possible and when he votes to unimprint someone it is for vaguely defined reasons.

MONTANA (Pug89) - neutral (posted some good things, feel like pug is sitting on the sidelines a little though, gives me the feeling of maybe letting townies fight? I think pug and messiah have agreed a lot which worries me slightly)

Sometimes when I get on there is so much content to get through that I don't have time to get to everything and although I mean to I never get around to commenting on it. That is probably why your getting that impression, but it is a valid criticism and I'll try to be better about that in the future.

I'm not really sure what to say about the messiah thing. A quick reread of his post shows we agree on DN and wanting to lynch tonight with only a few imprints (which I believe you do too) so I think your referring to the whole situation with SC and you.

Within the next day or two I'm going to take a closer look at each player and post my opinions so far and probably vote to imprint as well.

[iamausername]

-=xRECKONERx replaces lewarcher82=-

[xRECKONERx]

Hey guys, replacing in! I recognize a few of you. Gonna hop on my re-read as soon as I get out of the shower and get some food. Should have some decent content for ya in like an hour.

[xRECKONERx]

Unvote

Remove All Imprints

my predecessor had posted, if any.

WARNING! INCREDIBLY LENGTHY CATCHUP POST INCOMING! PREPARE YOURSELF!

PAGE ONE/TWO

For the record, I originally thought "Oh! Let's imprint everyone!". But, I have to assume two things when I have that idea:

1) The Mod definitely considered that scenario and probably prepared for it.

2) The town would essentially be eight one-shot abilities, while scum would accumulate abilities over time. Therefore, scum would have a buffet of abilities to choose from, and town would only have what we get imprinted with on that night.

Overall, I think it's a bad idea. I think e_k finally came around as well before the end of page one. Limerickx's idea of imprinting one person then waiting for the night actions to proc is flawed. This assumes that killing roles can ONLY be given to scum. What if there's a town vig? What if scum no-kills? Too many holes in this logic.

By the way, how did nobody else point this out? Scum no-killing or town vigs completely destroy the point of this plan. Yes, we could keep tabs on who has been imprinted and who hasn't, but we have to assume scum have at least some modicum of intelligence and won't fall for such a simple trap.

I agree that scum have the upper hand here D1. Four people in the informed minority can do some SERIOUS damage versus eight people who are completely in the dark other than the fact that they know they're town. We have a 1/3 chance of giving a power role to scum if we use the dice-roll, however. It is possible to somewhat increase our odds of giving it to town if we vote to imprint intelligently.

PAGE THREE/FOUR

Elvis saying 8-4 is unwinnable in regular mafia seems really, really incorrect.

Oh shit.

Vote: DeathNote

for his post 52. He basically makes it seem like we have to proceed with powers, or without. I don't like the wording of this at all.

Buttonmen vs. VMD is quite telling. Buttonmen's suggestion is a null tell: while, yes, it would probably end in a town win, it'd take a hundred days, and he had to know nobody would ACTUALLY go for that suggestion. VMD voting Buttonmen, however, seems like a town tell.

Imprint: VMD

and

Imprint: Buttonmen

. I think we can gain valuable information from the two of them being power roles. The way I see it, they can't both be scum, so in my mind I'm imprinting one guaranteed (imo) townie, possibly two.

Also,

It seems like he is trying to force the town to choose either empowering everyone or no one and ignores the third option of imprinting only a few people (which is what Elvis actually suggested).

This is exactly why my vote is on DN.

Furthermore, Buttonmen suggesting that we cannot form a connection between scum if they don't vote together is rather... mind-boggling.

Plum's giant catchup post is reading eerily like mine, haha. Also:

Buttonman why are you assuming that a Town-imprintee is going to get 1-shot Cop four times, or even at all?

Thank God someone finally pointed this out.

PAGE FIVE/SIX

YES!

@Mod: THANK YOU FOR STOPPING THE POINTLESS SUGGESTIONS ON ENDLESS NO LYNCHES. I WAS ABOUT TO REPLACE OUT JUST READING THAT.

Phew. Okay. Messiah's 117 lines up with what I was thinking, so I'm hesitantly giving him a slight lean towards town. Buttonmen has a good point in 125: SC imprinted himself and e_k, then e_k imprinted herself and SC.

FoS: elvis_knits, SC

.

This stuff about people being semi-cleared because they "didn't understand the setup" is complete bullshit. I read the rules, but even I glazed over the fact that scum lacked a night kill. I read the sample PMs, and I still didn't get it. It wasn't until the Mod clarified that I finally realized it. It's a null-tell. Trying to push it as a town-tell is a slight-scum-tell, though.

PAGE SEVEN/EIGHT

I like VMD's idea that elvis is scum and trying to buddy/use SC. I don't understand why SC is so opposed to the idea.

Limerickx is opposed to lynching today... I don't understand why. We have a free random lynch to use WITHOUT the guarantee of another townie dying during the night.

Imprint: Reckoner

. I'm the only person I know isn't a rogue at this point, though I have hunches (VMD).

I'm not a fan of e_k telling us she sucks at being scum and then trying to give us her scum meta in 182. I am highly suspicious of someone who tries to say they suck at playing scum. It's like when I used to go on beach trips with my grandma as a kid, and she'd say she sucked/didn't know how to play certain board games/card games, then would school us all. I KNOW YOUR TRICKS, GRAND-- I MEAN, ELVIS!

Oh, great. Here's Starbuck's catchup post. *sigh* Nothing to really comment on there.

SC calling elvis town? What the hell has she done that really warrants a town read, especially this early on? I agree with the Deathnote scum read, but I'm not sure I'd so willingly place Starbuck into scum territory. Hmph.

In fact, by the end of page eight, I'd be willing to upgrade Starbuck to leaning-town.

PAGE NINE/TEN

I don't like the SC/elvis buddying. It's like they have a preformed alliance from previous games, and neither of them are actually considering that the other one could be scum.

Messiah's vote on SC is intriguing, as the top of page nine is when I started to see SC in a scummy light instead of just a victim of e_k's scumminess. His omgus-inspired placing of Messiah into the scum column is lol-worthy. He has a point that Starbuck refused to take a stand on DeathNote... but I don't see it as a flat-out scumtell.

I don't believe elvis and SC are scumbuddies, but I believe one of them is.

Messiah's 236 is a strong post: SC says Starbuck is "obsessed with" and "defending" DN, but someone could just as easily say that he is doing the same with elvis (and vice versa). If it's a scumtell for Starbuck, then it's a scumtell for either elvis or SC. Just because you openly defend someone you read as town (which, way to give NO reasoning behind your unbelievably strong town-read on elvis, SC) doesn't mean that it's more acceptable just because someone thinks the attacks on another null-read are bullshit.

PAGE ELEVEN/TWELVE/THIRTEEN

SC's sudden change of heart to not wanting any/very few imprints seemingly disagrees with the fact that he STILL has his first two imprints of the game out there.

And... ugh, my predecessor failed. Holy shit, bad play, bad posts, apathy. I just remembered... he said nothing of any interest on pages 1-5. I've noticed that Starbuck gets a lot of scum attention in practically every single game I play with her... and the one game I actively remember he being scum in, I think I saw it coming. Therefore, I'm not willing to accept the Starbuck hate simply because I've seen it happen too many times before. I honestly don't see anything scummy about what she's done so far.

Ignoring all further posts by lewarcher. Plum's epic post on page twelve made me fall in love with her. Not enough to remove my imprint on VMD, but definitely make me question it.

DeathNote seems to be just rolling over and giving up right now. I don't get it, nor do I understand it. I think it's a null-tell at this point. Probably just tired of defending himself. I think he's an appropriate D1 lynch.

[xRECKONERx]

...that took me two hours to write up, and still it's only that long? BOOOO I WANTED NOVEL LENGTH.

In any case, to summarize my catchup post:

Imprint: VMD, Buttonmen, Reckoner
Vote: DeathNote
FoS: elvis, SC

And now, I give you a convenient, easy-to-read table of how I feel about people at the moment.
[mrow]Scum[col]IGMEOY[col]Neutral[col]Town DeathNote[col]TheButtonmen[col]farside22[col]Reckoner SerialClergyman[col]elvis_knits[col]Limerickx[col]Messiah ---[col]---[col]Starbuck[col]Vala Mal Doran ---[col]---[col]Pug89[col]Plum

[xRECKONERx]

By the way, I support imprinting three people on D1.

[SerialClergyman]

Having said that, voting you for trying to break the setup is scummy as.

Read that bit again, farside - I'm saying the VOTE ON buttonman for trying to break the game is scummy. I'm agreeing with you - button isn't scummy for trying to break the game but the vote on him is.


To anyone who uses the term OMGUS and WIFOM again - I hate you. We have 1/3 of the group here as mafia. They will group together and defend each other. If someone defends someone you think is mafia and attacks you when you're town, this is immediately something to be suspicious of. IF YOU ARE WRONG about the first person being mafia, it is not and you must drop all suspicion due to their defence of that person. But you need to have the right to attack people even if they've just attacked you.

So go ahead and note if I attack someone who just attacked me, and even call it OMGUS if you like, but note that the argument behind it is not based on a knee-jerk personal reaction and it is testable with a lynch of the defended scummy party, unlike a genuine OMGUS vote would be. It is not a one word answer to a case, it doesn't make the argument less likely to be true, just perhaps more likely to be hasty or ill-concieved, whether deliberately or not.

You can find my rant about bad usage of the term WIFOM here.

Either way - XRECX's catchup post is interesting in he's one of the few not to go along party lines. If you think DN is scum, why is SB town?

I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis.

Thoughts?

[xRECKONERx]

@SC: Because I don't necessarily think Starbuck's passive defense of DeathNote means she's saying he's town. She's saying she doesn't have a full read on him, and I can understand that to an extent.

[xRECKONERx]

Also, who else besides yourself and elvis would you support for imprint on D1?

[DeathNote]

How is that a policy lynch?

Because I know how this will turn out. My tactic right now is called, appeal to emotion.

You realize that's a scum tactic, right?

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... to_emotion

mhmm...

Before I am policy lynched, make sure the town has figured out who they want to imprint today. You might as well start scumhunting for tomorrow too. No sense and not getting ahead of the game.

[SerialClergyman]

Plum, probably. But that's about it. Having said that, I think three is too many. I'd also like some insurance with the imprint - like the plan I outlined above about lynchin DN. What did you think of that?

[farside22]

@ farside, I've been over all the issues surrounding me and SC, so I think you will see my explanation in thread the more you read. If you still want me to respond after you finish reading, I'll say it again.

Yeah I just got to that. I'm now starting page nine. I'm going to pop my latest notes down because I didn't have time to get here till now and I'm leaving in 10 minutes.

vala: what in your read makes you believe that elvis and plums were town? I notice you changed your mind reading further about EK so this is in regards to plum more now. Also I don't see self imprinting as scummy. Only person you can trust is yourself.
EK: Why are you so with SC and you having an imprint over any other player? How do you figure it is a least risk to the town without knowing SC's alignment? I disagree with your logic about the confusion. Anyone can fake confusion about what the scum can or can not do or just not read their role very well.

EK said:
Why do you disagree with my reasons for imprinting SC and me? Do you think we could be faking or do you think scum are dumb enough not to understand their own kill mechanic?

I mean this the nicest way but yes I believe you to fake well. I still have the memory of You are what you eat in my head with you as scum.


Also looking at page 6 and seeing EK's reason for believing SC town based on the no scum can NK comment. I just read the page 1 on the roles and just so you can see:

You are [NAME], a rogue active.

Together with [NAME2], [NAME3] and [NAME4], you have broken free of the Dollhouse's brainwashing, and the four of you are determined to bring the Dollhouse down from the inside.

You may communicate in private at all times using the following link: MAFIA QUICKTOPIC

You win when the only survivors are rogue actives OR when it is inevitable that this will be the case OR if the number of rogue actives is equal to the number of ordinary actives at the start of a day, and no ordinary actives have any imprints.

No where in it does it say whether scum can kill or not. It's assumed by many (at least that I know of) that scum can kill at night in all games. So assuming they can kill and asking this question in thread doesn't indicate auto-townie based on the role givin to scum.
I know as a mod I don't say in my PM's that the scum have 1 kill among them.

Mad props to pug for post 150 and exactly my thoughts.

Val why do you think limerick is town?

DN: is the first person to make me want to smack my head via post 172 - congrats! Okay now that my sarcasm is out of the way. How on earth do you say that someone is not scum but not town either? LOL

Wow and a complete 180 turn from EK with this comment:

Like your vote on Buttonmen, which was essentially because you found him annoying and you disliked his plan. While I happen to agree with you, those things don't indicate his allignment, and if you think about it, he probably was trying to break the game for the town. Which suggests he is town.

Did you not call him scummy not but 2 pages ago for trying to break the game?
So far I want to just

FOS: EK

for that 180 on buttonmen

[xRECKONERx]

Plum, probably. But that's about it. Having said that, I think three is too many. I'd also like some insurance with the imprint - like the plan I outlined above about lynchin DN. What did you think of that?

I could agree on a Plum imprint. But I will not agree on you or elvis, not today.

That being said... I'm actually starting to like the idea of NLing, but imprinting 3 people. That way, 25% of the players have an ability, and I think if we use informed imprinting, then we'll be able to at least hit two, probably three townies with it.

[SerialClergyman]

You wouldn't agree to imprint me knowing I'd only have the chance to use it once if dn is town, even if I was scum?

[TheButtonmen]

Before I am policy lynched, make sure the town has figured out who they want to imprint today. You might as well start scumhunting for tomorrow too. No sense and not getting ahead of the game.

Awsome so two people voted for you, so your going to stop playing and take your ball home. Boo Fudgin Hoo You don't want to be voted, how about you play the game and scumhunt rather then complain.

[TheButtonmen]

You wouldn't agree to imprint me knowing I'd only have the chance to use it once if dn is town, even if I was scum?

Not quite sure what your trying to say here? WHy would you only get to use it once?

[SerialClergyman]

Because I'm suggesting that if DN is town then I am lynched the next day.

[TheButtonmen]

I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis.

Thoughts?

Yes I have thoughts;

Vote: SerialClergyman

Your trying to order lynch's in advance, your creating dichotomies and your still trying to get us to imprint elvis even though theres no reason to belive shes town.

[TheButtonmen]

There's so many things wrong with that plan, infact with DN"s sudden push for his own policy lynch then you presenting this "plan" it seems to me your planning a bussing that gives your a free mislynch, gives mafia 2 power roles.

[TheButtonmen]

Also presuming you aren't mafia bussing DN, how would the "Plan" be a town tell on elvis at all?
WHy do you think we should (Presuming we went along with this) imprint her?