Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[SerialClergyman]

My theory suggestion:

lynching is less dangerous to the town than imprinting. If we were to lynch without imprinting, the worst that happens is we're down to 7 townies and 4 scum and have a wagon's worth of information.
If we imprint without lynching, we get all sorts of random bits of information that will be genuinely hard to piece together, and worse case scenario is that we permanently give scum abilities.

Thus I'm in favour of a lynch and very few if any at all imprints.

I hate it when my scum cases get dismissed as town vs town but I've talked enough. If I can't convince you yet, I can't convince you. I'm standing by my prediction, but I think lewarcher isn't the worst vote in the world. I'll join that wagon if it gets up.

[Vala Mal Doran]

I hate it when my scum cases get dismissed as town vs town but I've talked enough.

One of the things I look at when determining who's on what side in an argument I'm not particularly a part of (if somebody's implicating me as scum, I will inevitably have bias against that person and can't think so objectively) is how many are lurking, particularly how many people have started lurking since an argument started. If a valuable scum is on the line, there are sure to be very few inactives. (If an invaluable or overtly scummy scum is on the line, people might lurk anyway in order to not implicate themselves)

There are exactly four people who I feel are not posting enough: lewarcher, Jason, DN, and Plum. That's enough to make up a scumteam of people lazing around drinking margaritas while town beats up town.

(If you're wondering, the part where you have a point about starbuck is if lewarcher and/or DN flip scum. Starbuck otherwise seems fairly town to me so I want her to be guilty by association first. If lewarcher flips scum, then their buddying with each other looks suspect. If DN flips scum, it's not as strong a read imo but still implicates her enough for me to take a second look at her. I want DN alive as long as we have overtly scummy people like lewarcher around because if he's scum, he seems the type to accidentally out his scumbuddies.)

I talk waaaaaay too much when hypercaffeinated.

[SerialClergyman]

I disagree with your analysis, but keep up that style, I like people who look at the voting patterns of a town on the whole. You've got to go with what works for you.

I personally feel that generally in a town vs town argument, the zeitgeist turns to an 'one of these two people must be scum inevitably' attitude. The scum don't push aprticularly hard one way or another, they just contribute to the idea that a lynch of one is inevitable and that one of them being scum is inevitable.

The one conclusion of yours that I find suspicious and inaccurate is the one that says a lewarcher scumflip is more damning to starbuck than a DN flip. How do you come to this conclusion?

[Vala Mal Doran]

I didn't interpret her 183 the same way you did. You interpreted it as "I'm defending DN, and attacking these people who attacked DN", and I read it as

"Yeah, this guy isn't the towniest guy ever, but the way these guys reacted to him seemed scummy and would seem scummy to me regardless of DN's alignment. BTW, DN always acts like this, lol."

The key part is that she mentions having played with him before and therefore being familiar with his meta. If she knows how he plays and doesn't think he's "completely scummy", I don't fault her as much as I would if I felt she was basing her read on him off of just this game.

The lewarcher buddying, on the other hand, looked bad. Really bad. "Eh, I just imprinted him because he imprinted me.^_^" or whatever she said is plain bad form.

[SerialClergyman]

Not at all, in my opinion.

Starbuck actively chose to defend Deathnote in that manner. She had no choice about what lew did.

Lew being scum shows that he picked a side between two arguing parties.

Deathnote being scum means that Starbuck was defending scum while trying not to be seen to be defending scum.

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #5=-

Alaska (2) - Iowa, Colorado
Nevada (2) - Virginia, Georgia
Virginia (1) - Arizona
Arizona (1) - Alaska
Iowa (1) - Ohio

Not Voting (5) - Florida, Kansas, Montana, Nevada, Hawaii

7 to lynch.

-=Imprint Count #5=-

Ohio (4) - Nevada, Florida, Arizona, Ohio
Alaska (3) - Alaska, Nevada, Virginia
Hawaii (3) - Nevada, Iowa, Arizona
Iowa (3) - Nevada, Iowa, Arizona
Florida (3) - Nevada, Florida, Ohio
Virginia (2) - Alaska, Virginia
Arizona (2) - Nevada, Iowa
Colorado (2) - Nevada, Ohio
Montana (2) - Nevada, Ohio
Georgia (1) - Nevada
Kansas (1) - Nevada
Nevada (1) - Nevada

7 to imprint.

-=Plum has been prodded. Now seeking a replacement for jasonT1981=-

[TheButtonmen]

lynching is less dangerous to the town than imprinting. If we were to lynch without imprinting, the worst that happens is we're down to 7 townies and 4 scum and have a wagon's worth of information.
If we imprint without lynching, we get all sorts of random bits of information that will be genuinely hard to piece together, and worse case scenario is that we permanently give scum abilities.

Thus I'm in favour of a lynch and very few if any at all imprints.

This about perfectly sums up my thoughts on how to proceed at this point in the game.

@Vala

the constant posting of scum / town lists seem odd to me as well however given the nature of imprinting I guess they aren't as odd as they would be in a regular set up, as for the Lewis thing, I don;t really read it as a scumtell as it was his first / only post thus far. It would have pinged my scumdar more if he hadn't posted a postion on anything as then I would have suspected him of active lurking, so while his vote did seem a bit out of place I don't see it as a scumtell.

[lewarcher82]

sorry people, but I cannot post more than this, and it will never be style to spam the thread with huge quoting-quoting-posts. I hate them, who already knows me can confirm it.

I posted yesterday, I post today, and wll post tomorrow: that's it. I understand that in such a graphomaniac (seriously guy let's limite the noise) game it is easy for me to be qualified as lurker. Whatever.

I spent a hell of a lot of time reading the four huge pages that have been written in the last 15 hours or so, to discover....

.... almost nothing. Vala, Vala, why exactly are people trusting you? I cannot but notice that my "lurking" didn't bother you until I posted and cast my vote. What is wrong about my vote? Why don't you like it, lady?

Messiah: what should I comment? Ask me, and I will answer, I beg you please. If you do not answer, I just write what I think is worth writing.

Take it the way you want, I don't know why Star thinks I am towny (but it is apretty unique evemt LoL: Star, sorry for being an asshole last game, it was the setup that made me nervous), but I am not bothered by her imprint, since I have to believe that the "exchange the favour" part must have been a joke.

Now I gotta buy Christmas presents, so I will "lurk" for at least 6 hours.

[DeathNote]

unimprint: Lewarcher

[Pug89]

I understand that, and I don't think that people who want to lynch today are wrong for saying so, but I guess that I just feel, with scum 100% not having a kill as of this very moment, tomorrow is just sort of an extension of today. If we imprint and don't lynch, today+tomorrow is basically one long day in my eyes, only with the added information that comes from knowing what sort of imprints are out there, and anything else we might learn from what is revealed during the night phase. Maybe there are mechanics we don't know about. For example, being FORCED to use the imprints you get would fit with the premise of the show.

You make some good points and I can see were your coming from, and I wouldn't be completely opposed to it. A NL wouldn't be the worst thing for town given the lack of NKs but I still think we could get more info out of a lynch today than not.

.... almost nothing. Vala, Vala, why exactly are people trusting you? I cannot but notice that my "lurking" didn't bother you until I posted and cast my vote. What is wrong about my vote? Why don't you like it, lady?

I can't speak for Vala but it would be easy to forget you were in the game given the pace of the game and the paucity of your posting.

Pages 1-5: Nothing! Setup-related paranoia.

You didn't find anything at all to comment on? Not DN's plan or the whole elvis/SC thing.

sorry people, but I cannot post more than this, and it will never be style to spam the thread with huge quoting-quoting-posts. I hate them, who already knows me can confirm it.

You don't have to be making several long posts every day to remain active. So far you have only posted 4 times and only 2 of those post had any real content and your vote in your first real post had very little reasoning to back it up.


@DeathNote: care to elaborate why you unimprinted lewarcher82?

[DeathNote]

If I unimprint someone, its because i don't get a town vibe from them. Lew's post seem off. He lacks as opinion on the issues of the game which everyone should have an opinion on at the moment.

[TheButtonmen]

If I unimprint someone, its because i don't get a town vibe from them. Lew's post seem off.

He lacks as opinion on the issues of the game which everyone should have an opinion on at the moment.

@ DeathNote

I'd appreciate it if no one else answered it for him, What issues are those?

[lewarcher82]

True. Pages 1 to 5 mean nothing to me. No one knows what imprinting will do. Deathnote "plan" had no chance to be applied, and it being pro-town on anti-town under a theory-of-games perspective depends on data we do not own. I do not necessarily see scumminess there.

And Pug, when I asked Vala why I my lurking didn't bother her before my vote (which is not my first post), I actually expected her, not you, to answer. Whatever. Nobody normally forgets about lurkers. Who thinks lurkers are scummy necessarily keeps an eye on lurkers.

This is the first game I play with Vala, so I do not know her. I just do not trust players who try to take the lead on day one, and my impression is that this is what she is doing. Also I do not find scum / town lists useful. I find them confusing.

DN, I am not answering your question right now cuz I do not want to interfere on what Buttonman is asking you. I will do it later.

No reason to change my votes/imprints so far.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Lew being scum shows that he picked a side between two arguing parties.

Yes, but she reciprocated the buddying. She imprinted him back, and unless she's just terribly, terribly inexperienced with mafia, her reasoning for that imprint is just plain BS.

Deathnote being scum means that Starbuck was defending scum while trying not to be seen to be defending scum.

Again, that's not how I interpreted it. I think I took it at face value a little more, and I think you were auto-biased against her because she was attacking you and your BFF elvis and looking for a way to "catch" her as scum. Doesn't mean you can't be right, but it does mean that we will probably not see eye to eye on this point unless new information comes around that changes my (or your) read.

Also, you admitted earlier that you only thought DN was scum because you were convinced Starbuck is scum, and the quote above now makes it sound like you think the other way around. Could you explain?

I don;t really read it as a scumtell as it was his first / only post thus far. It would have pinged my scumdar more if he hadn't posted a postion on anything as then I would have suspected him of active lurking, so while his vote did seem a bit out of place I don't see it as a scumtell.

I really hate lurkers. Really, really hate lurkers. I especially hate lurkers who finally come in just to tell me that "nothing" was posted in multiple pages and then vote someone with hardly any explanation.

I spent a hell of a lot of time reading the four huge pages that have been written in the last 15 hours or so, to discover....

.... almost nothing.

/facepalm

Vala, why exactly are people trusting you?

Isn't that a question you should ask them, not me? :/ If you're actually paying attention (which I kind of doubt) you already know that I've asked Limerick that question and he's answered. DN is being dumb and voting almost everyone, so he doesn't even necessarily trust me (though he keeps aligning himself with my opinions and lurking about as badly as you, so eh). Starbuck, I have no frakking clue.

@Starbuck: Why are you voting to imprint me?

What is wrong about my vote? Why don't you like it, lady?

Go read the section concerning you in 249 again. You gave very little insight into your vote and even though I brought this up, you still refuse to say anything more about your vote on SC. Why do you think he is the most likely scum?

I can't speak for Vala but it would be easy to forget you were in the game given the pace of the game and the paucity of your posting.

Sure you can. QFT.

I try not to say too much about lurkers as long as they've posted NOTHING. Some people come in after several pages of not being around only to make the most awesome scumhunting behemoth post ever. If you come in from lurking and post very little, by god you are

screwed

if I have anything to say about it.

And on that note, if I didn't already know DN's meta is to post very curtly and anti-townly like this, I would have buried him ages ago. If you can prove to me that you always sit back like this no matter your alignment, lewarcher, then I will cut you some slack, otherwise post moar or die.

[DeathNote]

Why do you find the need to call me out like that? Has someone been answering questions for me and making it seem like I am not fit to give responses for myself?

Issues discussed this game:

1. The controversy over the various plans people have suggested, my plan of imprinting everyone being one such topic.

2. The issues of Starbuck seemingly defending me against Elvis for coming up with said plan above.

3. SerialClergyman attacking Starbuck for defending me, and inadvertently defending Elvis in the process.

[Vala Mal Doran]

I just do not trust players who try to take the lead on day one

Proactive scumhunting =! taking the lead. Unless, of course, everyone else is following, which is certainly not the case and wouldn't be the fault of the scumhunter even if they were. Plenty of other people are voting their own ways and doing their own scumhunting however they see fit anyway. <_<

[elvis_knits]

I'm really tired now from Christmas shopping so I don't have the will to quote and comment on everything. I'll put down some of my random thoughts for now, and will probably come back to some things later.

Thoughts on starbuck: every time I play with her I think she's scum (I think I've played with her in more games than twilight, but I dunno which ones), so I'm trying not to be too judgemental about her at the moment. I'm just pointing out where she possibly missed something from reading too fast, or misinterpreted/misunderstood me. As time goes by, I hope to get a better read on her, and see if me and her can reach some common ground. I feel like she is not listening to me at the moment. I do agree though that she is defending deathnote and lewarcher, which is odd.

Lewarcher: hadn't looked at him very much until now since I have been busy feuding with others I think VMD has a point with her line of questioning re: "pages 1-5 mean nothing." It does not seem like he's looking very hard for scum if he can't find anything in 5 pages of a game.

RE: VMD's 265, but I have a slightly different comment about lewarcher saying he doesn't trust players who take the lead on day 1. First of all, reminds me of Starbuck saying I'm trying to control the town and force my will on you all... so it's interesting that lewarcher's comment is similar.

The other things is: Why does it bother anyone that players are being vocal and playing hard and actively trying to hunt scum? Those are all good things! That is what will help us win. If you disagree with a person's conclusion, obviously say so, but do not discourage people from playing the game. If you think a player is taking the lead

in a scummy way

, then yes, I agree you shouldn't trust them. But to distrust anyone who takes the lead? That doesn't make sense to me, and I think it would encourage people to stop scum hunting, to lurk more and do less. That would be very bad for the town.

Discouraging scum hunting is very scummy, IMO.

I mostly see scum being more subtle anyway. I don't usually see scum putting themselves out there and leading the town. Because it's really hard to fake sincere scum hunting, and the more you post and originate ideas the more chance you have of being caught.

[TheButtonmen]

If I unimprint someone, its because i don't get a town vibe from them. Lew's post seem off.

He lacks as opinion on the issues of the game which everyone should have an opinion on at the moment.

Why do you find the need to call me out like that? Has someone been answering questions for me and making it seem like I am not fit to give responses for myself?

Issues discussed this game:

1. The controversy over the various plans people have suggested, my plan of imprinting everyone being one such topic.

2. The issues of Starbuck seemingly defending me against Elvis for coming up with said plan above.

3. SerialClergyman attacking Starbuck for defending me, and inadvertently defending Elvis in the process.

See it strikes me if you had even read his posts he touched on two of them and placed a vote based on the third. So instead I have to assume you removed him from your list of canadites because he was taking flak from people, then when questioned as to why you removed it you made up a reason without checking. If I'm wrong I'd love to know what i missed as going with whatever is popular at the moment is not exactly the best scum hunting technique.

[TheButtonmen]

Once finals are over (Oh blessed day) I need to go back and meta some people. Also the following keeps coming up and makes me kinda nervous as to what I'll find.

And on that note, if I didn't already know DN's meta is to post very curtly and anti-townly like this, I would have buried him ages ago.

[TheButtonmen]

One of the things I look at when determining who's on what side in an argument I'm not particularly a part of (if somebody's implicating me as scum, I will inevitably have bias against that person and can't think so objectively) is how many are lurking, particularly how many people have started lurking since an argument started. If a valuable scum is on the line, there are sure to be very few inactives. (If an invaluable or overtly scummy scum is on the line, people might lurk anyway in order to not implicate themselves)

There are exactly four people who I feel are not posting enough: lewarcher, Jason, DN, and Plum. That's enough to make up a scumteam of people lazing around drinking margaritas while town beats up town.

Since you brought it up I would point out Plum has been active in her other games, yet hasn't posted in this one in over 3.5 days.

[Plum]

/prodded. I had a very busy/stressful end of the week, and this game has thus far seemed to be the sort requiring more in-depth analysis than I could have given it these past few days. I plan to go out tonight but will get a major post up tomorrow. Sorry.

[Messiah]

Pages 1-5: Nothing!

I spent a hell of a lot of time reading the four huge pages that have been written in the last 15 hours or so, to discover....

.... almost nothing

So you have nothing to say about 9 of the nearly eleven pages?

Really

?

OK, so what are the reasons why in this particular case it's bad?

Because the reason given for why you two should be confirmed is weak and you both just outright dismiss the legitimate reasons why that is.

Also, before I get started, how does everyone feel about posting scumlists and particularly townlists in this game?

I normally don't like townlists but revealing who you think is town in this
game is inevitable, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Once finals are over (Oh blessed day) I need to go back and meta some people. Also the following keeps coming up and makes me kinda nervous as to what I'll find.

And on that note, if I didn't already know DN's meta is to post very curtly and anti-townly like this, I would have buried him ages ago.

Why are you nervous about what you'll find?

I went back and found the game I'd skimmed that he was in for you; he got buried day 1 in Border of Touhou and Mafia for claiming to auto-win no matter what happened to him. <_< Every post of his was like a sentence long. The other game I'd skimmed is ongoing still so I'm not sure I can even link it, but suffice to say he seems to enjoy saying things easily construed as anti-town and then not doing much else other than insisting he's town when everyone starts voting him.

@269 and 270: Noted.

[lewarcher82]

Ok. Sunday is here, parents visiting left, DN explained what are the matters I must have an opinion about and Vala addressed a post to me. This is gonna take long. I am bolding the points where I ask explanations or questions.

I have opened explaining that there was nothing important going on in the first 5 pages. This remains true, but I will now articulate.
There were proposals for plans. Lim suggested to roll a dice, DN imprinted everyone. Reactions were manifold. Someone (Vala) voted the potential "gamekiller" (Buttonman). The game kept moving on a meta-rail. In such a situation, in my 3 year experience in different mafia-platforms, there is no way to know what alignment the potential "gamekiller" are, and the ones who react voting them are either trying to save the game or they are scum and they try casting a bad light on town gamekillers.
How voting Buttonman was a way to hunt scum is sumthin I dun get, so

Vala may want to explain me

.

On a more general level, my commentary on all the plans that have been proposed is that they are pointless. We have to combine scumhunting with management of imprints, and trust the mod about this game being balanced.

So DN's plan is no good, but the comment by

pug

in post #89 is circular. I does not discuss the features of the three options, but he just sez that proposing to eliminate one of them (imprinting only some players) is scummy. I think this is just a logic fail, but since you want me to comment the first 5 pages,

please explain why

.

Messiah

, who in post 82 is enthusiastic about this reading,

is invited to explain

why she agrees with pug on a point that I do not see.

Elvis's post 85: clever point, but not useful. The fog surrounding imprinted roles is the very philosophy of this game. Isn't this perhaps nonconstructive criticism?

Button's post 99. If he is scum, he is a damn good one, because this is the smartest pro-town content posted in this game up to page 4.

SC 107: Button was commenting the mod's foolish rule, as you were also doing a couple of post before.

How come you can and he cannot

?

Elvis 114: no1 positively suggested to break the game.

Elvis 21-116: question looks interesting. But question dies in post 119.

Messiah 117: you were supporting different plans earlier.

Why did you change your mind more than once

?

Elvis 123-124: WIFOM on SC's account. Weird.
Elvis 126: glorious WIFOM.
Elvis 129: declared WIFOM out of frustration.

Vala 130: you got your answers pretty soon, huh? So much with scum-hunt...

DN 149: epic step-back from plans. But after all I can understand his attitude. His plan has been attacked (pug, really, explain) for 3 pages now.

Page 7: main event to me is pug starting to investigate SC.

Buttonman

162: I missed this. This actually bothers me a little. There is a contradiction with post 99, where u illustrated the advantages of imprinted PR's.

Please explain

.

Vala 175: well, all aside, I sympathize with Vala and join her "Buh?"

Limerikx 176: platitude, but true. I imprinted myself too. Why wouldn't I? Course I believe that I am town LoL

Vala 179: I totally disagree on the point that a player who votes selfimprint is scummy. Your elaboration is empty. Everyone here would at least act as town, so it is just natural imprinting one-selves.

Counterargument, if u can, please.

Starbuck 183: As I said before, I agree with all that she says here. You can find internal confirmation of this in the whole content of the present post.

Starbuck 189: no need for such a post. You gotta take responsibility for yo posts.

SC starts posting lists. I do not like it. Effort to look opened and true towards daytime community is redundant, and the real result is confusion.

Limerikx 190: acceptable and correct argumentation.

Elvis-Starbuck 198-199: Elvis seems clumsy as she tries to answer Starbuck's FoS on her. Last two lines lack of any good argument and try to invoke self-conscious town alignment. Noise, mainly.

Starnuck 201: /facepalm. If u imprint me, at least explain why. I expected to be called a lurker and I found myself imprinted.

Starbuck 205: QFT. QFT. QFT. (and applause)

Elvis 207: she is right, DN is not doing any good right now.

SC 210: totally disagree. And WIFOM.

Messiah 214: good post on SC 210. I agree.

Elvis 231: did you? You do, than I will post my comments about SC's options list.

--------

In conclusion:

FoS: SC, Elvis, Vala

in decreasing order.

[Messiah]

Messiah, who in post 82 is enthusiastic about this reading, is invited to explain why she agrees with pug on a point that I do not see.

I think the part that's confusing you is my use of the word point when I should have used catch.

Messiah 117: you were supporting different plans earlier. Why did you change your mind more than once?

Did I change my mind more than once? IIRC I only did once, from Limerick's plan to ek's. That was because I decided that imprinting somewhat randomly would be a bad idea, and that we should use the information gained from playing a normal day of mafia to decide who to imprint.