Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[Vala Mal Doran]

Why hello there.

@DN: Let's say we go with imprinting everyone. How many townies do you think need to be confirmed in the night for it to be worth giving scum powers indefinitely? I don't think confirming one townie is worth it at all.

[Vala Mal Doran]

A confirmed townie means a confirmed person that we can imprint.

I take it this is your answer to my question? <_<

[Vala Mal Doran]

How is a dice roll any better? If people vote for an imprint, that's information and discussion we get out of it. If people vote to imprint someone who's later found out as scum, we can take a closer look at the people in favour of imprinting that person, which is essentially a gold mine of information we would not have if we determined an imprint by dice roll.

[Vala Mal Doran]

A confirmed townie means a confirmed person that we can imprint.

I take it this is your answer to my question? <_<

yes.

That's not much of an answer then, you know. I asked how many confirmed townies do you think it would take for it to be worth permanently imprinting all scum.

[Vala Mal Doran]

I have a major problem with Buttonman's plan.

It sounds boring as hell.

Just sayin'.

[Vala Mal Doran]

On a lesser note, anyone familiar with how well or how poorly elvis can fake town as scum? I get paranoid of people I agree too much with early D1. <_<;

[Vala Mal Doran]

...

Vote: buttonmen

Stop trying to kill the game. Seriously.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Err so explaining the method that has the best win %'age for own is a scum tell?

No, it's not. But I am placing a vote on you for trying to ruin the spirit of the game. That, and arguing over the mechanics is boring, and I am more than willing to place a dubious vote or two in order to start some actual scumhunting.

So.

@everyone: is my voting for buttonmen for blatantly trying to break the game scummy? Is buttonmen scummy for trying to break the game, or is being against the spirit of the game acceptable?

[Vala Mal Doran]

I'd prefer to actually play mafia rather than abuse a game mechanic to pull off an effortless win.

This is my entire point. I think having fun with the game is far, far more important than winning. If playing for fun decreases our chances of winning, then so be it.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Okay, first of all,

unvote

. It's clearly served as much of its purpose as it is going to.

You make yourself sound very dangerous to town when its in a game with a very very small margin of error. Also does this mean you will lurk / leave the game the moment you stop having fun?

That was not my intention. However, try to see it my way: IMO, intentionally breaking the game is, essentially, cheating. Never mind that the mod shouldn't have left the game breakable in the first place, it's just something that I cannot do in good conscience. I want to win, but I want to win fairly, and yes, I WILL leave the game if we are not playing fairly. Scum deserves the chance to win, the mod deserves the chance to see the game play out the way they intended for it to, and town deserves the chance to kick scum's asses fair and square... WITHOUT having to resort to cheating.

[Vala Mal Doran]

This is funny, because when I opened the thread for the morning I was considering imprinting elvis and plum, because I think both of them have been quite town thus far. Elvis' post containing her vote to imprint herself throws up a major red flag for me, though.

I don't think it is a safe assumption at all that scum figured out they didn't have a night kill, at least not safe enough to auto-confirm people town. And the way elvis words her "revelation" post strikes me as a very, "I've been planning this all along!" sort of thing.

The quick succession of posts after DN voices his dissent also disturbs me -- it seems like EK is trying to cover all her bases too much, like it somehow didn't occur to her that not everyone would be gung-ho about her voting to imprint herself. Not to mention, this is DN we're talking about. He's leading in votes right now, and someone who previous to now has made such a good town showing really shouldn't be so eager to level with him, unless they knew they were pulling a dangerous gambit.

And as much as I dislike having to admit this after how annoying Buttonmen's been, he makes a great catch in 125, and EK immediately dismisses it sarcastically. If I were in a position of suddenly making myself look scummy as town, I would sure as hell answer any attacks as earnestly as possible, so the sarcasm just strikes me as another scumtell.

I think all of this is enough for me to

vote: Elvis

until we get some answers.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Also, my 126 is probably due to my frustration with TheButtonmen.

Fair enough, I suppose.

It's not that I particularly disagree with your hypothesis, it's that I don't think that it's nearly enough to confirm people who were clueless as town. Just about anyone could have waltzed into the topic on page 2 or 3, seen that nobody understood the setup, and pretended not to either regardless of whether or not they actually understood it. I don't think it should be considered a tell either way, and the fact that you think it is and the way in which you declared that worries me. A lot.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Well, I do agree that it could have been faked. Those things do sometimes happen, although very very rarely, in my experience. Part of your decision should be depend on the context. Do you think either me or SC were faking and why?

When I read his statement about lylo, it seems obvious that he's assuming scum get NK's. So if he said that to mislead us, it was very crafty. It's not the type of thing that's easy to fake, IMO.

If I am somehow wrong in my hypothesis, I think it would be because scum were somehow very SLOW and hadn't yet realized they don't have a NK this game. I think the chances of faking are pretty slim.

One of the reasons I think it would have come up in the QT is that when I am scum I routinely talk about the other players in the game and who I am scared of and who we should think about NKing at some point. I talk about that type of stuff right off the bat, and I assume other people do also. I also would be PMing the mod questions, especially in a theme game with wierd mechanics. I just think the NK would have come up.

There's a chance it somehow didn't, but I consider the chance sort of slim.

I think I underestimated though how weird it probably looks for me and SC to be voting to imprint each other though. At the time I voted to imprint us, I really didn't care that it looked odd since I thought my conclusion that we were both town was pretty obvious. But I do understand why it might make people a little paranoid.

I don't think SC is faking at all, and if I had as much faith in your hypothesis as you do I would certainly vote to imprint him. You I'm a little less sure about, partially because you're the one that came up with the hypothesis and partially because I think you're intelligent and experienced enough (2005 join date?!) to pull something like fake naivety off and then use it to your advantage later.

On the note of scum being dumb... maybe people here have higher IQs than they do on the site I first played mafia on, but where I come from scum would

totally

be initially oblivious about their lack of nightkills. I don't want to give people here too much credit about figuring it out until I'm sure that credit is due. <_<;

Who else made that mistake?

I did, though I'm fairly certain I never said anything to that effect (by the time I saw the game thread was up it had already been publicly figured out that scum didn't have kills) and wouldn't expect you to believe that it implicated me either way even if I had. I don't, after all, agree with your theory.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Never expected you to.

I guess we wait for SC to come in and explain his early imprint votes.

[Vala Mal Doran]

@Pug: Do you think one or both of elvis or SC are likely scum? If so, is there a reason you haven't put a vote down?

[Vala Mal Doran]

Or, elvis is scum without you, and if she uses your trust to her advantage and makes you look a little worse in the process of getting herself imprinted, well, that's a double-win, isn't it?

I think that's a fair bit more likely; it's certainly enough for me to not want her imprinted.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Fair enough, Pug, though I don't think there's any harm in placing down votes early and often.

SC, what do you mean by your last sentence? It's kind of worded awkwardly.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Lim, I'm flattered by you voting to imprint me and all, but I question you voting to imprint yourself. I have had a town read on you, but I had a town read on elvis too, prior to her so eagerly voting to imprint herself. I am of the opinion that no one should vote to imprint themselves.

Not to make you second-guess yourself, but why do you think I am worthy of being imprinted? What makes you so sure I'm town?

[Vala Mal Doran]

VMD, why shouldn't we vote to imprint ourselves?

I just think it looks too eager. I understand that it can be argued that one only knows one's own towniness, etc etc, but if people don't vote to imprint themselves it takes 7/11 people to imprint someone rather than 7/12 and I like that majority better. Then there's the fact that if all of the scumteam votes to imprint one of their own, that's four votes, which means it only takes three unwitting town to make a powered-up scum. I'd prefer to make that number four by keeping anyone from voting themselves, and give ourselves more of a margin of error. (And yes, I'm aware scum

probably

wouldn't be that stupid. If they thought they could get away with it though, I'm sure they'd jump at the chance.)

DN looks like he's just parroting me. Not cool. Unfortunately I have to go to work now, so I don't have time to blast him to hell and back for not forming his own opinions.

[Vala Mal Doran]

The reason is not because I think you are scum, but because I don't think you are town.

Buh? o_O

[Vala Mal Doran]

Like I said before, you're not necessarily wrong; I tend to play cautious and paranoid early on to the point where it almost becomes a flaw and sometimes need a voice of reason or two to keep me in check. >_<

However, I still think eagerness to imprint oneself

can

be a scumtell if done in a certain way (see my case on elvis) where weak reasoning is given, etc.

I think if people are going to insist on voting for themselves, then

everyone

should vote for themselves so that at least we're on equal footing. I'd still prefer not to give scum that advantage, but people knowing their own alignment better than anyone else's is a strong counter-point to that, I must admit.

@elvis: What do you think of the manner in which my vote was placed on you? Do you think I am town or scum? Why?

@DN: Can you elaborate on your thought process on unvoting people you no longer think are towny enough? Also, is English not your first language? I've noticed you have a tendency to word your posts awkwardly.

[Vala Mal Doran]

I'd also like to hear more from Plum and Messiah, who I got townvibes from before. Apologies for not having the clarity of mind to put this in my first post. >_>;

Where is this Jason person? Has he said anything yet?

[Vala Mal Doran]

Ugh. Apologies for not posting today; our neighbours just moved and took the internet we were piggybacking off of with them. Didn't even realize it was theirs until their signal wasn't showing up on my computer anymore. XD

I'm currently borrowing my housemate's mobile broadband card, but she needs it for work so

I'm going to have limited internet access until Tuesday or so

, when the wireless guys are coming. No more free internet for me.

Anyway, I'm catching up. I'll post sometime tonight for sure.

[Vala Mal Doran]

@Mod: Can we get a new votal/imprint tally? Could you also start reposting the player and corresponding dollname list with that, so it's easier to tell who's voting for whom without having to hop back and forth between the current page and the first page? Thanks.

I have read everything up till now and am starting my more in-depth re-reading and posting soonishly.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Okay. First of all, apologies for any disjointedness this post may contain; I'm writing it in Wordpad as I re-read. It's also almost certain to be wordy, as I am a very longwinded person (sometimes to my own detriment in these games, but I digress).

Also, before I get started, how does everyone feel about posting scumlists and particularly townlists in this game? I'm aware that many people on this site frown on making town lists because they think it just tells mafia who to kill, but in the case of this game I think making townlists as well as scumlists is a great way of figuring out who we should imprint and outweighs the danger of scum eventually picking someone off those lists to kill.

I think you're town, but you're playing sort of paranoid, and not necessarily voting for who you think is scum, or not thinking through totally. Like your vote on Buttonmen, which was essentially because you found him annoying and you disliked his plan. While I happen to agree with you, those things don't indicate his allignment, and if you think about it, he probably was trying to break the game for the town. Which suggests he is town. So your vote there was not good.

FWIW, from the very beginning I never intended to keep the vote on him for long. It was certainly never a "omg you're so totally scummy" vote, and I even agree that him trying to break the game in favour of town would probably be a towntell (unless he's scum who realized that the mod would never let anyone break the game so blatantly but that he could earn major townpoints by looking like he wanted to break the game for town. I hope that's just me being paranoid again, though). I also outright said in the post where I voted him that I wanted to get some actual discussion going, because talking about the mechanics was getting boring, and that I wasn't afraid to place some dubious votes to accomplish starting that discussion. In the end I think it was actually your voting to imprint yourself and SC that really jumpstarted major discussion, lawl.

Thank you for the links to some of your prior games; I can't promise I will get around to them, though. It might not matter, either, because pretty much every post you made before and since your "let's imprint me and SC" post I have had a town or neutral read on and thus I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

On that note:

unvote: elvis

Everyone needs to say how they feel about lynching and imprinting so we can decide what to do. People also need to say who they think is scummy.

I am for lynching if we come to a consensus that someone is scummy enough to warrant it on day 1. Otherwise, Limerick's idea of not lynching day 1 seems like a decent idea. I am also for imprinting people we have obvtown reads on. I'll cast some imprint votes and put a town/scum list at the bottom of my post later.

I've played with DeathNote before and it very much seems like he was just trying to get ideas out there. I'm not getting a completely scummy feeling from him.

I want to get it out there that I'm also giving DN the benefit of the doubt for now due to meta reasons; I have read bits and pieces of many games on this website, including a couple that DN was in, and it seems that he always acts like this, and almost always gets lynched for it early on in the game. That said, I certainly don't want to give him an imprint any time soon. People with anti-town metas are far too much of a wildcard to risk something like that.

I don't think he[Buttonmen, when he was trying to break the game] is being against the spirit of the game.

Trying to break the game isn't against the spirit of Mafia? News to me.

[VMD voting Button]'s like the same thing as elvis voting DeathNote because she didn't like his idea.

Not if you consider a.) my rant on the subject earlier in this post, b.) the fact that, if I recall correctly, Elvis' vote is still on DN. Granted, DN's plan was vehemently anti-town; Buttonmen's was arguably pro-town but vehemently anti- the game in general, so Elvis' vote is more warranted than mine ever was or was intended to be.

She unvotes in Post 88 citing that she felt that he was going to cheat in some way.

Wrong; I was saying that imo, breaking the game is equivalent to cheating. The point of mafia is to win by logic and superior wit, not to ##NL over and over til auto-win.

<--- is calling right now Starbuck scum with Deathnote. Write that down, keep it safe, check it on reveal.

...Really? When she's only made one post (not counting her "I'll post later" post)? I had a firmly neutral read on 183.

Pages 1-5: Nothing!

Again, "...Really?"

on Buttonman: he is a smart player,

as far as I see

. I get town

vibes

from him. Still, I agree that looking for Nash equilibria or bugs in the setup is pointless, since there is a whole set of rules we do not now.

Pages 6-8: interesting stuff happens. I find Starbuck's comments

interesting

[couldn't find a more descriptive adjective than "interesting"? Really?]

, she

seems

to be truly scum-hunting.

And I find SC's posts

a little

excessive in front of the not so heavy accusations he has to face.

lewarcher lurk lurk lurks, then when he finally posts he posts very briefly and constantly words everything like he doesn't want to commit to having any strong opinions he can't backtrack on later. Scummy? I think yes.

Vote: SerialClergyman

Lurking and then giving so little insight into his vote? Bad bad bad. The only thing he has to say about SC is underlined above.

Imprint: Starbuck

For a third time, "...Really?" After one content post?

Vote: Elvis_Knits

An odd vote. I would have expected, if a vote was going to be placed, for it to be placed in 183, rather than later on after Elvis responded. Is there a reason you didn't vote in 183 but later decided you would vote, Starbuck?

I'm scum now? That's a compelling omgus, SC.

This. SC's 219 elaboration doesn't make it look any better either, imo.

He also paid me the favor of voting to imprint me, so I figured I'd return it.

doublefacepalm.jpg

For example, being FORCED to use the imprints you get would fit with the premise of the show.

It would also completely break the game in town's favour if scum got primarily killing roles (which I'm guessing would be the case based on what little the mod has said on the subject). Good idea, but not likely.

I don't think anybody ever answered this post by SC.

I did. I said something along the lines of I thought it was more likely that you were scum acting alone, taking advantage of town!SC's friendliness towards you. Obviously I've unvoted you already and that's not really relevant anymore, but I thought I'd point out that I've already answered it anyway.

So you're saying starbuck is scum because she mentions DN a lot but has a neutral read on him? I don't get the scumtell here at all.

This.

It has a couple of legitimate points(as well as some I completely disagree with). Far too much of it seems to be that you think she is "obsessed with" and "defends" DN, but I don't see the huge scumtell there. The only way that her defense of DN could be scummy in my eyes is if DN was scum, but you say that you only think DN is scum in the first place because starbuck defended him. It just doesn't add up.

And also this.

She's defending him, but she doesn't want to be SEEN to be defending him.

Not what I saw at all. I took it at face value and read it as she had a meta-based tell on him. She uses the words "overaggressive" and "overreacted" in relation to your and elvis' reactions to DN. That doesn't seem like she's defending him to me. I read 183 as, "Yeah, this guy isn't the towniest guy ever, but the way these guys reacted to him seemed scummy and would seem scummy to me regardless of DN's alignment. BTW, DN always acts like this, lol."

More general thoughts on the Starbuck vs SC/Elvis thing: The overall fight looks to me like a town vs town squabble more than it does a scum vs town or scum vs scum distancing squabble. If there were scum involved I'm fairly certain I'd be smelling a rat from someone involved right now, and instead all I smell is a lot of righteous indignation all around. Try not to tunnel too much, guys, it could be bad news for all of us. >_<

Town/Scum list:

Obvtown (town reads on every single post):
Limerick
VMD
Pug
Messiah

Probably town (town reads on most posts but some neutral or scum reads):
SC
Elvis
Starbuck
Buttonmen

Just town of neutral (town when posting, but post moar pls):
Plum

Neutral (lol anti-town metas):
DN

Probably scum (where the fuck are you?):
Jason

Obvscum (Do I really need to explain my case again?):
lewarcher

vote: lewarcher
imprint: VMD (I guess, since other people are doing it too >_<), limerick, pug, messiah)

[Vala Mal Doran]

I hate it when my scum cases get dismissed as town vs town but I've talked enough.

One of the things I look at when determining who's on what side in an argument I'm not particularly a part of (if somebody's implicating me as scum, I will inevitably have bias against that person and can't think so objectively) is how many are lurking, particularly how many people have started lurking since an argument started. If a valuable scum is on the line, there are sure to be very few inactives. (If an invaluable or overtly scummy scum is on the line, people might lurk anyway in order to not implicate themselves)

There are exactly four people who I feel are not posting enough: lewarcher, Jason, DN, and Plum. That's enough to make up a scumteam of people lazing around drinking margaritas while town beats up town.

(If you're wondering, the part where you have a point about starbuck is if lewarcher and/or DN flip scum. Starbuck otherwise seems fairly town to me so I want her to be guilty by association first. If lewarcher flips scum, then their buddying with each other looks suspect. If DN flips scum, it's not as strong a read imo but still implicates her enough for me to take a second look at her. I want DN alive as long as we have overtly scummy people like lewarcher around because if he's scum, he seems the type to accidentally out his scumbuddies.)

I talk waaaaaay too much when hypercaffeinated.

[Vala Mal Doran]

I didn't interpret her 183 the same way you did. You interpreted it as "I'm defending DN, and attacking these people who attacked DN", and I read it as

"Yeah, this guy isn't the towniest guy ever, but the way these guys reacted to him seemed scummy and would seem scummy to me regardless of DN's alignment. BTW, DN always acts like this, lol."

The key part is that she mentions having played with him before and therefore being familiar with his meta. If she knows how he plays and doesn't think he's "completely scummy", I don't fault her as much as I would if I felt she was basing her read on him off of just this game.

The lewarcher buddying, on the other hand, looked bad. Really bad. "Eh, I just imprinted him because he imprinted me.^_^" or whatever she said is plain bad form.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Lew being scum shows that he picked a side between two arguing parties.

Yes, but she reciprocated the buddying. She imprinted him back, and unless she's just terribly, terribly inexperienced with mafia, her reasoning for that imprint is just plain BS.

Deathnote being scum means that Starbuck was defending scum while trying not to be seen to be defending scum.

Again, that's not how I interpreted it. I think I took it at face value a little more, and I think you were auto-biased against her because she was attacking you and your BFF elvis and looking for a way to "catch" her as scum. Doesn't mean you can't be right, but it does mean that we will probably not see eye to eye on this point unless new information comes around that changes my (or your) read.

Also, you admitted earlier that you only thought DN was scum because you were convinced Starbuck is scum, and the quote above now makes it sound like you think the other way around. Could you explain?

I don;t really read it as a scumtell as it was his first / only post thus far. It would have pinged my scumdar more if he hadn't posted a postion on anything as then I would have suspected him of active lurking, so while his vote did seem a bit out of place I don't see it as a scumtell.

I really hate lurkers. Really, really hate lurkers. I especially hate lurkers who finally come in just to tell me that "nothing" was posted in multiple pages and then vote someone with hardly any explanation.

I spent a hell of a lot of time reading the four huge pages that have been written in the last 15 hours or so, to discover....

.... almost nothing.

/facepalm

Vala, why exactly are people trusting you?

Isn't that a question you should ask them, not me? :/ If you're actually paying attention (which I kind of doubt) you already know that I've asked Limerick that question and he's answered. DN is being dumb and voting almost everyone, so he doesn't even necessarily trust me (though he keeps aligning himself with my opinions and lurking about as badly as you, so eh). Starbuck, I have no frakking clue.

@Starbuck: Why are you voting to imprint me?

What is wrong about my vote? Why don't you like it, lady?

Go read the section concerning you in 249 again. You gave very little insight into your vote and even though I brought this up, you still refuse to say anything more about your vote on SC. Why do you think he is the most likely scum?

I can't speak for Vala but it would be easy to forget you were in the game given the pace of the game and the paucity of your posting.

Sure you can. QFT.

I try not to say too much about lurkers as long as they've posted NOTHING. Some people come in after several pages of not being around only to make the most awesome scumhunting behemoth post ever. If you come in from lurking and post very little, by god you are

screwed

if I have anything to say about it.

And on that note, if I didn't already know DN's meta is to post very curtly and anti-townly like this, I would have buried him ages ago. If you can prove to me that you always sit back like this no matter your alignment, lewarcher, then I will cut you some slack, otherwise post moar or die.

[Vala Mal Doran]

I just do not trust players who try to take the lead on day one

Proactive scumhunting =! taking the lead. Unless, of course, everyone else is following, which is certainly not the case and wouldn't be the fault of the scumhunter even if they were. Plenty of other people are voting their own ways and doing their own scumhunting however they see fit anyway. <_<

[Vala Mal Doran]

Once finals are over (Oh blessed day) I need to go back and meta some people. Also the following keeps coming up and makes me kinda nervous as to what I'll find.

And on that note, if I didn't already know DN's meta is to post very curtly and anti-townly like this, I would have buried him ages ago.

Why are you nervous about what you'll find?

I went back and found the game I'd skimmed that he was in for you; he got buried day 1 in Border of Touhou and Mafia for claiming to auto-win no matter what happened to him. <_< Every post of his was like a sentence long. The other game I'd skimmed is ongoing still so I'm not sure I can even link it, but suffice to say he seems to enjoy saying things easily construed as anti-town and then not doing much else other than insisting he's town when everyone starts voting him.

@269 and 270: Noted.

[Vala Mal Doran]

How voting Buttonman was a way to hunt scum is sumthin I dun get

Seriously? I've already explained this. I wanted to

actually play the game

, not cheat our way to an easy win. If someone reacted suspiciously to my vote, that just would have been icing on the cake, but I wasn't really expecting to accomplish much other than communicating how frustrating Button was being to people who actually wanted to play the way the game was intended.

Counterargument, if u can, please.

I've already conceded my opinion's defeat and voted to imprint myself along with everyone else. What more is there to say?

FoS: SC, Elvis, Vala

Nice OMGUS. -_-

We have no idea what imprintings really are. I prefer to stick to what we know.

It's day 1; we don't know anything. This is a suggestion that is anything but constructive.

I find his posts too aggressive towards Starbuck, and I think that his attempt to remind everyone of DN's scumminess without even trying to interact directly with DN is also pretty scummy.

This is lewarcher's first semi-decent content so far, imo. Finally,

finally

I get an answer to my question of why he considers SC scummy. Interesting that he wouldn't give me an answer, only elvis.

I find with meta's like Death Notes I find it allot harder to find connections / scumtells due to second guessing and not knowing how much to read into their reactions to pressure.

Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

why wouldn't you vote to imprint SC?

TBH, paranoia. I still wasn't so sure about my read on him.

The quote about "eagerness" in relation to voting to imprint oneself was a reference to how I viewed Elvis' self-imprint post. Again though, I've since dropped the point.

Sorry I can't post anything more thought-provoking today; I just feel absolutely braindead right now. Hopefully I'll have something more insightful to say tomorrow.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Apologies for not posting today; I had friends drop in from out of town unexpectedly. I'm going to have to catch up tomorrow. >_<

[Vala Mal Doran]

Gravest apologies for my inactivity these past couple of days; I forget if I mentioned this here or not already, but I had friends come in from out of town and that combined with the fact that I was having to share a mobile broadband USB card with my housemate for several days while we waited to get real internet hooked up has meant that I've been away from the computer too much to do any real posting. I'm making a post for my other game first mostly because I already have it half-done, but I wanted you guys to know ASAP that I am back.

[Vala Mal Doran]

OMG FAIL.

I've been typing for the last two hours and just lost everything due to internet fail. So, screw it, since I've read the whole thread now, I'll just address what I remember enough to address and if anyone has any questions for me they can ask me again. I'm not spending another 2 hours retyping all that. >_<

@Reckoner: You think I'm "obvtown", then back off of that read when Elvis starts questioning you about it and unimprint. Why?

@SC: I wouldn't be particularly opposed to your lynch order plan. Both you and DN have some substantial connections between yourselves and other players and knowing the way either or both of you flip would probably be great for untangling this game's web a little. DN is starting to get on even my nerves -- I'm just flat-out running out of patience for him and if he's going to be like this all game it might be better to just get rid of him and if he

is

scum, then hey, icing on the cake.

I wouldn't necessarily auto-call you town if DN flips scum, though. If I were scumbuddies with DN, he'd be a laughably easy bus and considering the count on DN now I'm fairly sure scum knows that. (Speaking of the count, he's at L-1 and that's why I'm not voting him now.)

@Farside: At the point in the game you asked me about re. Elvis and Plum, I was just going off gut, knowing I could rescind any imprint votes if I changed my mind later. Plum moved downward on my list due to her inactivity but since she's making an effort lately she's squarely back at neutral.

You addressed some other things to me but I don't remember what they were. Mind repeating? Apologies.

Re: button vote: Someone (I think it was messiah) said that they read my vote on button as a null tell. If I weren't me, that's probably how I'd read it too. Not sure why Reckoner considers it a town tell; I just wanted button to shut up so we could get on with playing the game and not NL spamming to auto-win.

[Vala Mal Doran]

DN is starting to get on even my nerves -- I'm just flat-out running out of patience for him and if he's going to be like this all game it might be better to just get rid of him and if he

is

scum, then hey, icing on the cake.

What's he done recently that's ticked you off since your last post?

Originally I wanted to excuse him because of his meta and a hope that, if scum, he would unintentionally out his scumbuddies. When I finally got back around to this game I realized, you know what, if he really wanted to, he could change his meta. As he's acting now, he's little more than dead weight to us. Lewarcher was also little more than dead weight without a known meta excuse, which is why I was going after him. (Did I unvote yet, btw?

unvote

just in case.) Now that he's actually been replaced with someone who might actually keep up with the game, Jason has been replaced, and plum is active again, DN is the only one left who I'd be willing to lynch D1 because he's just... useless to us and hard to understand. Also, he has had more direct interactions than many other players in this stage of the game, and if we lynch him we have a lot of information based on that. (We have a lot of connections with SC too, but DN should be lynched first on the basis that SC... actually

talks

.)

And anyway, the "policy lynch"/"Appeal to Emotion" thing was just intolerably bad and the straw that broke the camel's back. >_>

[Vala Mal Doran]

So you thought I was obvtown solely based on my Button vote, I take?

[Vala Mal Doran]

Oh, okay. I thought you found me town based on my general play and thus was confused.

[Vala Mal Doran]

I see. Thanks for elaborating.

[Vala Mal Doran]

I concur that Buttonmen should answer SC's question.

@SC: Are you planning on addressing that question to anyone else, or just Buttonmen? Why are you so curious to know Buttonmen's position specifically?

@EK: I have an imprint vote on Messiah. Several pages ago I asserted that I had a town read on pretty much every one of his posts. He doesn't post as much as some, but the overall impression I get is that he values being succinct, and when he does post he clearly has a good head on his shoulders. He responds to what's important and asks the right questions/poses the right pointed statements and it doesn't take an hour to read through his posts like it does with some of us. <_< I like that and think he is a good choice.

[Vala Mal Doran]

I don't think he's asking you to make a scum/town list, I think he's asking you to venture a guess to how many scumbags are supporting your imprinting, not who, specifically. At least, that's the impression I got.

[Vala Mal Doran]

So SC, you're basically saying that anyone who is attacked by anyone else is more likely to be town based on some bullshit percentage you pulled out of your ass? Riiiiight...

Smart scum will bus their scumbuddies if they think the benefits will outweigh losing a member. Period. For a scum attacking a scum!DN, they would receive far more benefits from bussing him early and hard than they would from keeping him alive, assuming he's as useless in the QT as he is here. If DN is scum I expect to find at least two of the scumbags on his lynch trying to make themselves look good, if not all three. You're completely disregarding the fact that he is a blatantly anti-town player, and not someone scum would probably want to keep around if he's going to undermine their strategies.

If the D1 lynch was on someone who mostly appeared townie but had made some small mistakes that got blown out of proportion by a few people until everyone wanted him or her lynched, that would be an entirely different scenario and I would be more inclined to agree with you.

To answer your question, I am guessing 1-2 scum will be on the imprint list of pretty much anyone who actually gets imprinted. Surely there's at least one among the ranks who's hoping to earn town points later for voting to imprint someone they'll hope will end up confirmed town later. I don't think any more than 2, though. It's too risky for scum to let a bunch of people have imprints, especially when they don't have a NK.

I don't understand the logic of "these people are voting to give people they think are town powers, so therefore THEY MUST BE SCUM COUNTER-OFFENSIVE GO". Is it really that surprising that several people would find several other people to be towny and have some semblance of a consensus on that point? I just don't get the logic at all.

-refreshes-

I see a few people have beaten me to the point. Oh well.

I am aware that statistically there is an extremely high chance that there is at least one mafia voting along with me, and also a good chance that at least one of the top 3 are scum (mafia voting bloc and such,) but when it comes down to it, I would feel uncomfortable moving my vote to someone that I feel is LESS townie just to satisfy that particular statistical likelihood.

Quoted for massive truth.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Ok, wtf.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Vote: SC

Obvious bus was sickeningly obvious and also bus. "Hey guys, he's scum just like I told you he would be, because I'm scum too! Now do what I say and don't you dare imprint anybody." What a fail attempt to change the subject and coerce people around to his way of thinking, which people are resisting for good reason, dammit.

imprint: Buttonmen, VMD, Messiah, Limerick

None of my opinions on these people have changed.

[Vala Mal Doran]

EBWOP: Imprint: Pug, that's what I get for being exhausted and not hitting the preview button.

Although now that I think about it Buttonmen's a great candidate, too. I'll keep that vote where it is.

[Vala Mal Doran]

fail

Imprint: Pug

There. Ugh, need slp.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Ok, I'm back from my nap. x_x

My case on VMD is more about her flip flop. She keeps bringing up that she finds people scummy who vote for themselves then does it.
She called Thebuttonman scummy for his meta breaking town win scanario and the reason I feel EK with VMD is that EK almost does this coach thing with her which I find off putting and yet doesn't call her scummy.

Plus the whole I think player X is town based on my read is oh so vague.

unvote:
vote: VMD

...Really?

Really?

I

never

called Button scummy; in fact I've thought he was fairly town most of this time but was annoyed by his trying to break the game enough to vote him for being anti-the-game-in-general till he stopped. I've explained this several times over already, and I'm really not sure why you're not getting it.

I wanted to play the goddamn game

, not NL over and over. Why is that so hard to get?

And I've already said my piece about this so-called "flip-flopping", too. I didn't want people to vote themselves, but people voted themselves anyway, so I said frak it, I'll vote myself too. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Again, why is this so hard to understand? You seem to be trying entirely too hard here.

@SC: I realize this doesn't fit into your perfect little view of the game, but if Starbuck flips town, what does that make you think of me? I'd really like to know.

It's worse when we're in a 1/3 of the group is scum situation, so I know if people disagree with me unanimously i'm probably on the right track

What? This doesn't even make sense considering the remaining 2/3 is town.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Ah yes you voted him for killing the game.

Yes. Yes I did. And I would do it again. My vote had everything to do with wanting to play the game the way it was intended to be played. If you're getting anything else from that, you're just being paranoid. And while there's nothing particularly wrong with paranoia (as established earlier I'm rather paranoid myself), when you're on the receiving end it is rather irksome.

Calling people out on it and saying it's scummy then saying when in rome do as the roman's is just wishy washy and yes it's backtracking.
I haven't self imprinted. You know why? I don't see it as a point right now. I know my role and I want to look for scum the best way I can right now and not worry about just me, myself and I.

Well, I'm sorry you read it that way, and I'm glad you're so "selfless", but I'm going to have to vehemently disagree with you. I know I'm town and by god, if other people are going to vote for themselves and not be swayed by my argument against voting oneself, like hell I'm missing out on the opportunity to vote for myself, too.

Are these your only reasons for thinking I'm scum? Because they're pretty bad ones, and I'd really prefer not to spend my time arguing against paranoia and actually scumhunt.

(side note: Is it just me, or is the site failing hardcore right now?)

[Vala Mal Doran]

Okay, so it makes you uneasy. Fine, whatever. Just answer the goddamn question. Or does it make you uneasy because you're scum who doesn't want to commit to having a stance on me if your plan goes awry?

[Vala Mal Doran]

Okay, so it makes you uneasy. Fine, whatever. Just answer the goddamn question. Or does it make you uneasy because you're scum who doesn't want to commit to having a stance on me if your plan goes awry?

[Vala Mal Doran]

Agh. Did I just double post? I can't tell. Anyway, not until you answer my question, SC. I asked first.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Agh. Did I just double post? I can't tell. Anyway, not until you answer my question, SC. I asked first.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Honestly, a lot of the reason I want to see people imprinted is because I'm curious to see what kind of roles are available to us. Another is that if I thought this game was meant to be played as a purely vanilla game, the mod just would have made it that way. To play the whole game as a nightless vanilla would just be... underwhelming. And if we only imprint a couple people, I don't see much danger in it.

((DISCLAIMER: Before anyone (I'm particularly looking at you, farside) bitches at me for imprinting five people and calls it hypocritical or something, note that I'd obviously unimprint some people if too many people were getting too close to being imprinted.))

As for your question, I've reread and still get the impression she was defending him due to meta. Then there's the issue that she was mainly attacked by you, and you're my top suspect at the moment for trying to control town's play with almost every post and hammering just so you could get your way, so if you're scum it's a fairly safe assumption she's town. I would like to hear more from her, though. Hopefully now that she's coming back soon that will happen.

[Vala Mal Doran]

A vote means you believe someone is scum.

Well, I found a point we disagree on, then. It was early enough in the game that I really didn't have any suspects. Therefore, a vote to get more appropriate discussion going is perfectly acceptable imo. If you look back at the post where I vote button, I make it quite clear that I'm not voting him because I think he's scum, I vote him because he's being against the spirit of a game that I want to play properly.

I had a long list of things that bothered me most of which is how you say I get town vibes from you but don't say why. You said it to about 3 people to the point it lost all meaning. And your scum list where you list 3 people on the buttom because they didn't contribute is someone not looking for scum but looking fur lurkers.

Not contributing is a scumtell. I've yet to find an issue with most of the people who are contributing, though, with the exception of SC and possibly you (your reasons still aren't getting any better, and I can't just let slide that your predecessor was AWOL, either).

@SC: Did it ever occur to you in your arrogance that maybe people aren't disagreeing with you because they're scum, and instead they're disagreeing with you because you keep trying to control town's actions?

[Vala Mal Doran]

If starbuck is scum, then I guess nothing will sway you (not that anything's swaying you now, gg tunnelling). But I still think Starbuck is town and I still think SC was obviously bussing DN. I didn't get that vibe from elvis nearly as much.

Any reason why you thought this?

I've already repeated myself because of you several times over, and frankly, it's a complete waste of my time. Go

read

my explanation, I know you know it's there. Ctrl + F my screenname til you find what you're looking for if you have to, but I'm sick of you asking me to explain things I've already explained several times.

And instead of actual scum hunting reason for voting lets throw in meta again.

Because your confirmation bias on me is

obviously

"actual scum hunting", amirite? You're obviously only looking at some of my posts and blinding yourself to others, because you're clearly not bothering to read any of my explanations.

[Vala Mal Doran]

If four people find someone scummy, you'll guarantee that others will find him scummy, even if there's nothing to the case. The more consensus you have when there are 4/12 scum in the game, the worse the idea - speaking in very general terms.

Your logic is still as amazingly counterintuitive as ever.

[Vala Mal Doran]

I was curious to see if I just voted to imprint him because he did so for me what the reactions would be.

I'm voting to imprint you because I feel that you are pro-town along with TheButtonmen.

Were these really your only reasons?

Also, you put Farside at 1 on your town list and me at two, but Farside has been vigorously attacking me and thinks I'm scum. Does this not form a sort of contradiction if you think both of us are town? What do you think of her attacks on me?

He said he was ready to hammer and was waiting for Starbuck to post a catchup post.

Catchup post is done, plenty to analyse if there's a town flip, now it's time to hammer and hopefully grab another scumbag.

If you want to sneak in and get it done before he comes I'm happy with that outcome too.

SC is so obviously scum, wtf. "Hey guys, hammer before anyone can have a reaction post!" Obviously the quicker the hammer falls the less time we have for discussion and considering SC is lynch candidate #2, he is clearly afraid and flailing to make sure Starbuck bites the dust first. How is anyone

not

seeing this?

[Vala Mal Doran]

unvote, vote: Starbuck

Her "I don't see where I defended him" defense isn't very persuasive.

...

[Vala Mal Doran]

Honestly I am too tired from Christmas shopping all day to wade through all your wall posts.

This is why Consumermas is a bad holiday. [/neo-hippie]

Anyway, here's the part where I get to say

I told you so

.

So I'm fairly certain one or two of the following three are scum; EK, SC and Messiah. Thoughts?

You read my mind.

I'd vastly prefer an SC lynch, though.

If SC flips scum it excuses EK in my mind, as I doubt they're

both

scum. Messiah's probably scum ei------ waaaaaaaait a minute.

Vote: Messiah

If I'm going to say Messiah's probably scum either way, this is the smartest lynch, not SC. Scratch that SC thing for now. Messiah hammers to end the day early after voting SC at the beginning of the day for doing much the same thing. Hypocrisy? I think yes. And are we really supposed to buy that Messiah thought SC's posts after hammering DN were genuine when his vote was still on SC until right before hammering SC? This just reeks of opportunism.

But really, I'd be fine with a lynch on any of the three, as I think you're absolutely right. (Actually, I still might prefer a lynch on SC over messiah just because SC's play is so much more annoying. <_<; Must go with person most likely to be scum... must go with person most likely to be scum.... gahhh.)

Imprint: VMD, Buttonmen

I need to look back over the thread before voting to imprint anyone else, and considering I work retail I probably won't have time for that until after that damned holiday's over. Sigh.

[Vala Mal Doran]

None of my opinions have changed in the last two pages.

Considering this game is considerably more time consuming to read per page than my other one, I probably won't get around to any real content for at least the next 24 hours or so. I think I've mentioned this already, but I work retail and have been given way too many hours this week. >_<

[Vala Mal Doran]

Were I scum, I'd have known that Starbuck's lynch would bring a metric shit-ton of suspicion on me

WIFOM. I think you thought you could weasel your way out of it, personally.

imprint: Limerick

This is probably the only other imprint vote I'm going to place for the day. Lim looks most town to me after Button, and it's been that way pretty much all game. SC is wishy-washy on him despite saying he's the most suspicious in 697, and that only makes me more certain of Lim's towniness. I'm pretty sure SC realizes that if he aggressively leads another lynch on a townie he'll be ruthlessly buried for it.

@Reck, post 727: How much would you say the one post you quoted counteracts elvis' more scummy words/actions?

[Vala Mal Doran]

Prod avoidance. I just haven't had time for this lately, what with working retail and all. >_< Hopefully getting around to this tomorrow.

[Vala Mal Doran]

@Mod: Requesting replacement; work stress somehow has led to complete mafia burnout.

My most sincere apologies to all involved; I get home after a shit day of retail and the

last

thing I want to do is deal with what I realize now amounts to unnecessary additional drama in my life.

Best of luck, all.

[Vala Mal Doran]

About time, ugh.

Sorry I had to ditch, the extra holiday hours were putting way too much stress on me.

Really wish KOC hadn't failed so bad, although the way the imprints worked I don't really think scum could have won this anyway, and judging by the number of scum replacements I wasn't the only one who felt that way.